FOR REAL - List the Five Greatest Numismatic Scams of All Time ....
BillJones
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I stupidly opened this topic thinking that it was a legit thread. I should have known better noting that it already had five pages of responses. It was just a retread of, shall I be diplomatic and say, an old topic.
I thought that the title did offer some possibilities, so I’ll throw these five out there from least to worst.
John Ford’s scheme to have one his henchman produce a phony “California gold bar” and market it as a genuine item from the 1850s. Ford had a reputation as the head of the major New York City auction house, New Netherlands (I think), which gave his story credence. Eric P. Newman exposed the scam. This scam hurt the market for legitimate California gold items. I remember collectors of my father’s generation to avoid that area of the market because of “controversial pieces.”
Lebanese counterfeit gold coins in the 1960s.
Phony “numismatic investment houses,” led by Rare Coins of America, that sold AU coins to novices and most non-collector investors at wildly inflated prices thus giving the numismatic industry a very bad black eye. This flourished in the late 1970sa and 1980.
Whizzing AU coins to make them look Mint State, mid to late 1970s. The scam was used to rip off novices and non-collectors, and ruined probably hundreds of decent coins.
1. and the "champ" - Chinese counterfeit coins over the last decade.
My dates might be a little off, and you might have other candidates.
So what do you think?
Comments
Certainly major scams Bill. I also see a major scam area as ebay.... True, it is not a singly orchestrated scam, but with the plethora of counterfeit, over rated, not as described, AT, doctored coins, it is arguably the most diverse and largest currently operating scam. Cheers, RickO
"Phony" numismatic investment houses were joined by quite a few "real" and big time coin dealers of that era. I got solicited by a number of them in the 1983-1985 era. I was quite surprised in 1983 when one of the leading US Coin dealers of that time (and still around today as a top dealer) sent me a better date "gem" seated quarter for $3,000. The only problem was that it was a stark white, semi-cleaned AU55 worth approx $300-$500.
Single scams are interesting. But in the 1983-1986 "loose" period, too many dealers were in on it. It forced the market's hand to come up with something....PCGS.
Yes, Roadrunner, and there were regular, well known coin dealers who were supplying the scammers with what the scammers were doing.
Bill:
Your list goes: #5, #4, #3, #4, #5
Edit your numbers (5-4-3-4-5?) to words followed by periods and the large lettering should go away.
Those gold and platinum plated state quarters hyped on tv a few years back were a huge scam marketed to the less knowledgeable about precious metals and numismatics.
Thanks!
Yes, I remember when one year's batch of State Quarters was complete, one of the barkers on TV talked about what "these gold plated quarters are really a great investment!"
I remember how a the FTC to run some coin dealers through the ringer for touting their coins as "investments." Really guys, do you think that you can get away with that? And then I thought, perhaps this is so stupid that perhaps the government will ingnore it because only lame brains would believe it.
But then again they are coated in 24 K gold!!!!
I bought a gem 1890-CC Morgan from a famous coin shop on 57th street when I was 16 in the mid 70's. Turns out this gem was whizzed. I still have bitter feelings to this day and have nothing to do with them.
All it takes is one bad transaction and a dealer can lose a customer forever
Fixed it for you.
As far as scams go........the gold plated V Nickel scam is one of my favorites. The Mint took a real embarrassing slap in the face on that one.
Pete
Fly-by-night grading services that sprang up w/ copycat names.
One long-time authenticator wrote that he was invited to attend a meeting of TPGS's at a major coin convention in the 1980's. I believe it was moderated by Rick Montgomery in an attempt to set some type of standards. At the time the writer believed there were only a few services in existence. They were not named in the article but at that time I believe there was, ANACS, INSAB, NCI, Accugrade, NGC, PCGS, and perhaps one more I can't remember that were legit. Anyway, he wrote that there were at least a dozen and a half services at the meeting! People and companies he had never heard of.
For us old-timers - 1965 "Double Dot" cents to fill the 1965-D hole in your Whitman Folders. They were hyped in huge ads in Coin World back in the 1965-66 period when most collectors were still hole-pluggers.
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I watch just for laughs...
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Scott Travers told me about some of the plated coins he saw hawked on TV. Some are advertised as coated with platinum, reportedly to make them rare and valuable. It's bad enough that these are marked up and sold for outrageous premiums on the miniscule layer of precious metal they purport to have. But the worst is that he sent some of the coins to a lab and they were found to have absolutely no platinum at all.
I would add decent, fake PCGS holders with real coins....
2010 5 oz, initial release. Confused messed up release, Stopped in Dec., released in Jan. Biggest mess ever. 1Tommy standing in line in illinois. The authorized bullion dealers made coin. MHO.
I only bought 2 coins ever from inventory from a coin shop on 57th street (1988). I was looking at auction lots there and happened to spy an interesting raw 1870 seated dollar from above. In hand the coin looked MS64 to me and they were only asking MS63 money ($1200). I was happy to oblige. It came back NCG MS64 where I flipped it for $2400. The other coin was a MS63 no drapery half dime. That also went NGC MS64 for a double. Never bought another coin from the store after that....still 2 for 2.
Those fake frosted proof coins... made to look like cam and dcam coins and then marketed as such
That famous coin shop has done some good and bad in the past as have most large dealers. We all have stories. That's why "stories" about coin dealers and TPGS's are kept out of grading/authentication seminars by good instructors.
I heard one from the horse's mouth in the 1980's. A grading class instructor who worked at the first TPGS (INSAB) told his class one that would shock all of you. He said it was water over the bridge with a good ending because before a law suite could be filed against that first grading service, ANACS started to grade coins too!
Numismatic scams.... littleton!!!!!!
HAPPY COLLECTING
The biggest numismatic "scam" of all time (perhaps the biggest scam of ANY kind, ever) ?
The 1933 gold confiscation.
The 2014 Kennedy was the biggest I ever saw!
I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned CAC yet.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You deserve a big fat disagree. Here is why. decades ago, that company and many others who took out large adds where IMO some of the biggest...
Anyway, in the last few years, I have personally called the owner of Littleton on three occasions to tell him how impressed I have been with the product his company is selling.
NOTE: I have no idea concerning the sales price he is charging. All I will say with 100% accuracy is the coins I've seen (at least thirty this year alone) he is selling as Unc are usually MS-63 or higher. I've seen a silver eagle that was graded MS-70 and several MS-69's. A Washington quarter graded MS-65, etc.
IMO, your post is libelous based on the modern practice I have observed by this company. If I were you, I should either delete your opinion or defend it. If I agreed with you, as I would surly have decades ago, I would have piled on to Littleton mercilessly and with great gusto!
Oh yessireee!
I dealt with a "roadie" for years and bought a LOT of stuff from him.
Then.... a TV blitzing, GUARANTEED buyback (20% APR or Grey Sheet..whichever higher
) hype shop opened across town.
Mr. Soldmelots told me he would no longer sell coins to me as he had found above said place and had a MONSTER market for sliders and junk.
WHICH... they put into "INVESTMENT PACKS!"
Zowie.
Well... as you have probably guessed....they didn't last long. Long enough to do a lot of damage, but they skated one night and left town.
I appraised one "employee pension" package that a wealthy farmer had purchased for his crew.
I was the HIGH quote at $13,000.00
His purchase price? Only $243,000.00.
But in fancy FLIPS!
I don't see how that is materially different from taking a cleaned or cull coin and overstriking it to sell as a "fantasy" coin at large premiums over melt value (so as long as the plating is disclosed). Maybe the people plating the coin considered it a piece of art. Some here gush over those but there is disdain for the plated coins. Go figure.
It's called limited edition amazing artistry. The folks collecting them like the product and if the past is any indication, the folks buying many of those issues are going to have some decent appreciation in the future. IMO,it is truly sad that the mint engravers have not come close the the beauty of the "plated coins" you have cited until the more recent bullion issues (especially the platinum) and some of our modern the commemorative coins were issued.
Coingate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal
Were the $10-$12 million in lost coins ever found?
I never knew all the details of the case. Thanks.
How about the 'ballistic' rolls of presidential dollars that were sold for multiples of face in packaging that looked like gold bars? I even remember seeing an ad in a newspaper with images of them being unloaded from an armored truck.
I have to agree with you about the proliferation of Chinese counterfeits. It is mind-numbing.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
OBW Morgan rolls, or most all of the unserched original roll scams out there. People made/make a lot of $$ selling them.
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http://www.toledoblade.com/frontpage/2005/07/17/Rare-coin-odyssey-put-Noe-in-contact-with-mix-of-dealers.html
Here's scam that a Boston dealer used back in the early 1980s. He sold rolls of Morgan Dollars for well over the then going rate for average circulated pieces. The rolls were sealed, and he offered to buy and sell them for his investors BUT only if the rolls were not opened. In other words all you knew about the content of the rolls was something about the coins on either end of the roll. The rest of the coins were a mystery. Needs to say the tenuous value of this "investment" went away when the dealer went out of business, which he did during the coin price crash which came circa 1982.
The I heard of this dealer he was running a fortune telling shop in Rhode Island.
Better known as "California cameo".
Micro O and omega man coins thought were geninue and holdered by the TPG's
There was this one, albeit an unintentional scam, sold as a near record CA nugget, when it was an Aussie "orange roughie": https://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/great-gold-nugget-scam
There was a counterfeiter in San Francisco who did a very good job duplicating the dies the large cents. The trouble is the edges of his creations had squared off rims, like a modern coin, which gave him away. The coins are still scarey however, especially for those who not familiar with how large cent planchets should look.
I agree with Rick on eBay. They have given fraudsters access to huge numbers of targets, and not just in coins. We have some world class antique counterfeiters in this area and eBay (at least initially) really boosted their business for things like "antique" duck decoys, "colonial" baskets, etc. People that knew these guys thought it was hilarious...they never said the stuff was real, they would advertise "look what I found in my basement", of course the basement was where their shop was.
What Zoins posted. Coingate makes everything else pale in comparison.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
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The Langbord case comes to mind.
Recently, a YN got ripped for around $1,400 on a deal gone bad. Maybe some of you have heard about it. It was Big news and then..ah..um..anyway, that's all that comes to mind.
Does tuition count?
I wonder how much has been paid in aggregate tuition over the years.
Good point. If it were possible to know the answer it most likely would add up the the single biggest scam. By far. Kinda sad because indicates a unethical "seller," and a novice buyer. Stacked deck.
The omegaman counterfeits (MCMVII High Relief Saints and the 1882 $3 gold coins) were never slabbed by any major grading service. Only PCGS slabbed the micro-O counterfeit Morgan dollars. Under their guarantee, PCGS bough all back that they could get their hands on once they determined they were fake. There are a few that were never sold back to PCGS and they bring good money in the marketplace and are considered quite collectable. A few weeks ago Dan Carr started a thread showing us one that he just bought. NGC recognized these coins as being fake from the beginning.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Those are a few "scams", in my opinion, next to counterfeiting, and confiscating.
The monetization of a lone 1933 Gold Double Eagle; for a king, but none for Her paupers.
And someone answer me please; "How did the witch of Wall Street Hetty Green relate to 5 nickel coins in 1913 ? "
Was E.H.R. Green a spoiled son, or what ? I mean seriously, how did this guy make the Red Book more of a mystery than a 1914/3 Buffalo ?
Was there an unintended numismatic scam in 1913 ?