@telephoto1 said:
I was hoping there would be a choice stating "I think it's ludicrous to pay for a TPG opinion and then pay again for someone else's opinion of that opinion"...
so any cross over is ludicrous as well?
how about asking people what they think of a graded coin...i should stop doing that too, i guess.
and...i should never pay a dealer a percentage to buy a coin for me if it's TPG graded...cause that would also be ludicrous.
I like CAC coins and non CAC ed' coins. I buy coins I want.. sticker or not. And my eyes write the check. So the first test is my set of eyes.
I do however appreciate that if I see a coin I want to buy, that three professional graders and a finalizer at PCGS came up with a grade. Then, at CAC the coin got another set off professional eyes to look at it and liked it also.
I have also seen CAC ed' coins that were not nice at all to my eye.
I'm pretty sure that the interest was never in CAC or any TPG's for that matter, and in the first place. The interest has always been that a collector gets his money's worth for the coins he/she purchases (not for resale, but for their collection). At least that's what my humble thoughts are, But it's true : THE BEST EYES in the business gravitate toward the TOP. Enter added expense and value.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
The CAC bean helped me sell this in a few hours.
How could an AU-58 get a gold bean? This question has already been asked but I'm asking again. If pcgs calls this 58 I guess CAC is calling them out. Just what grade is it this Lincoln?
I think it's what the TPGs have been trying to tell us all along.
A coin isn't necessarily a grade; it's a price.
@thebigeng said:
I like CAC coins and non CAC ed' coins. I buy coins I want.. sticker or not. And my eyes write the check. So the first test is my set of eyes.
I do however appreciate that if I see a coin I want to buy, that three professional graders and a finalizer at PCGS came up with a grade. Then, at CAC the coin got another set off professional eyes to look at it and liked it also.
I have also seen CAC ed' coins that were not nice at all to my eye.
That summarizes it perfectly. Buy what you like to look at for a price you enjoy looking at it.
@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
Interest in CAC approval for 19th century gold continues strong.
I think you're right. I have a couple of bust golds that I will send in probably next month.
The shop I use is a sender-inner Steve is also a former PCGS grader.
He looked at my Eagle and says....go for it.
Some other stuff.... naaahh.... at least not yet. ???
Absolutely - CAC is not a factor for me as I don't do big ticket numismatic US Vintage Coins. I can c where it wb a good marketing tool on big ticket items.
A coin may go cac at point A in time but at point B in time if it goes bad in the holder due to accelerated tarnish then the sticker means nothing.
Most at shows can only afford standard range material less than $100, possibly mid range $100-$299, and top range above $300 stretching the curve.
I have noticed a large shift to graded US and World currency.
@Cougar1978 said:
Absolutely - CAC is not a factor for me as I don't do big ticket numismatic US Vintage Coins. I can c where it wb a good marketing tool on big ticket items.
A coin may go cac at point A in time but at point B in time if it goes bad in the holder due to accelerated tarnish then the sticker means nothing.
Most at shows can only afford standard range material less than $100, possibly mid range $100-$299, and top range above $300 stretching the curve.
I have noticed a large shift to graded US and World currency.
Most at coin shows can only afford under 100 bucks?
CAC's opinion is as valued as it always has been both good and bad. What I think you are seeing is the rarity premium diminishing for stickered examples of any given issue as it perforates throughout the market. It is still part of the optimal value add formula dealers use to add value to their inventory to make a living since buying cheap is harder than changing plastic and adding stickers albeit less risky than cracking out.
A gold sitickered coin in a OGH aid still the perfect storm of lquidity if one buys into the premise that the coin is the end all and be all of value.
@telephoto1 said:
I was hoping there would be a choice stating "I think it's ludicrous to pay for a TPG opinion and then pay again for someone else's opinion of that opinion"...
Well said and my feelings exactly.
Why not have a third or fourth company put their little stickers on it too? Why not just sticker the slab to death and cover up the coin? Maybe we should have another company grade the slabs too?
Never been a fan, Never will. If it has a sticker on it so beit, but no way would i pay more for the only reason of having a sticker. I pay more if I like the coin.
@Boosibri said:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
JA provides an opinion on a coin's grade, he does not state a fact about the grade. His opinion is a commentary on the opinion of either PCGS or NGC on the coin's grade. In other words, he gives an opinion of an opinion. He is roundly successful because his opinion is highly respected in the hobby.
To state that JA knows more than everyone (but Rick Snow) about every series is just silly.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I like having another professional opinion. I like taking my coins directly to CAC to hear what JA thinks about their quality. His opinion has also influenced my collection to a certain degree in that most of my coins have similar attributes and in particular nice toning/natural surfaces. I don't always agree with his opinion nor does my dealer who is my most trusted set of eyes. I also like the market impact in terms of increased liquidity.
@Boosibri said:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
JA provides an opinion on a coin's grade, he does not state a fact about the grade. His opinion is a commentary on the opinion of either PCGS or NGC on the coin's grade. In other words, he gives an opinion of an opinion. He is roundly successful because his opinion is highly respected in the hobby.
To state that JA knows more than everyone (but Rick Snow) about every series is just silly.
I meant that on this forum there are a number of people claiming to know there series so well that they need no outside help. With the exception of Rick and a few other posters, I highly doubt their skills compared to JA and other experts who could offer support as a partner dealer.
Sorry for the sharp post previously but I still assert that in numismatics and in other fields/hobbies to think that you can go it alone is sheer ignorance.
My perspective of grading has been that it is a beauty contest, and that the grade is the trophy assigned by those particular judges at that particular time. At such events, the audience can certainly have their individual opinions, but only the judges' determinations count in such venues. CAC is like the "finals," in the minds of many. It's a matter of prestige, and the designated beauty queens then start accumulating the endorsements.
As we know, lots of folks are disdainful of beauty contests, but lots of people, for a variety of substantial and insubstantial reasons, consider their outcomes significant.
The waning interest in them most likely reflects current market conditions. Until the bids show some material progress in steady increase I don't see much opportunity there. Certainly for big ticket material there will be a demand for CAC especially for big $ top range coins over $300. However major market improvement is needed. They are a moot issue for a lot is what I do like mods, world, and currency anyhow.
For standard (less than $100) and mid range (100-299) US vintage material I have to laugh at someone spending money sending these to CAC.
Irregardless if somebody buried in some big ticket $2500 coin the sticker will help their marketing but experienced buyers wb looking at the coin. Any offer on these is usually somewhere between blue and grey if ventured at all. Some coins can have a wide range between these 2 bid CDN ranges. Right now any offers many make leaning close to blue. A lot of us set up at a recent show discussed this and this was a general consensus. Concern is not the sticker but where coin itself falls in said range and if retail buyer available.
I believe CAC is a very strong contributor to the coin market. I did not always think that in the early days. Early on, my opinion changed as I saw the success of JA's project. The premiums alone show the weight of his judgement. My early opinion was based on what I perceived as a need for another opinion. I did not expect it to become as popular - and valuable - as it has become. There certainly is not as much forum discussion of CAC as there was in the early days - wow, there were pages of threads - but that is to be expected and proves the overall acceptance of the service. CAC is here to stay and there is no longer any debate about the attached value of a green sticker. The gold sticker is virtual gold on a coin. Cheers, RickO
@telephoto1 said:
I was hoping there would be a choice stating "I think it's ludicrous to pay for a TPG opinion and then pay again for someone else's opinion of that opinion"...
Well said and my feelings exactly.
Why not have a third or fourth company put their little stickers on it too? Why not just sticker the slab to death and cover up the coin? Maybe we should have another company grade the slabs too?
You're missing a very obvious point that has been with the TPG's from day 1, or at least since January 1988 when I first started submitting dozens of coins every month. That is, the grades often varied. 2-3 submissions, 2 different grades. Now what? When I first submitted all of my collection in 1988, half the coins came back lower than I thought they were....or at least half of what I had paid for them from 1974-1987. I wasn't a happy camper being "schooled" like that. No choice but to resubmit them to the opposite TPG service. Second submissions usually resulted in a higher grade at both TPG's. That was a real lesson early on. Grades were not fixed. What was a real slap in the face, was that a number of coins I thought were graded properly the first time (and then sold), ended up coming back a grade higher as soon as the new owners submitted them in 1988. That cost me $10K or more.
You might as well have multiple companies giving opinions because you can't get better than 66% agreement in many or most cases. If you're ragging on CAC as a waste of your resources....then the next sentence also has to be why does it take multiple TPG submissions to get the proper market consensus grade for that coin? And unfortunately, if the coin gets an upgrade gift, it stays there until a future upgrading cycle declares it solid for the grade.
Another point missing is TIME. Grades change over time. No debate there. Now you have to either resubmit that coin back to the TPG to get today's competitive market grade....or....at least get a 3rd party opinion such as CAC. Who knew back in 1988 that in the future you'd have to resubmit all your coins every 3-10 years to keep current, of particular concern to REG SET players.....or find someone like CAC who can gold sticker them or at least verify they are not grade-inflated "winners." For now, having made 1 trip to CAC since 2008 is still probably all that's required. But, who knows if another trip down the road will be in order to keep up? How to get rid of CAC? TPG's that grade with 80% or better consistency....AND....where the grades don't change over time. 3 out of 4 consensus in 1998 or 2008 should be no different than the same 3 out of 4 opinions in 2018.
For standard (less than $100) and mid range (100-299) US vintage material I have to laugh at someone spending money sending these to CAC.
One only needs to look at auction results, or Great Collections to see that coins in the $75-$300 price range typically recover the CAC fees. And in most cases for coins over $150, well exceeds them. Even on a lower $55 MS64 Morgan dollar, a CAC sticker will often get you $10 more, especially if it has attractive color (ie CAC agrees that color is NT). It's a no brainer on a MS65/66 Morgans and many other generics in that price range, especially for those posting their stuff on line for sale or at auction.
I typically see a $50-$75 spread at GC on MS66 common Morgans between CAC and non-CAC. Why not get that? And that's just as true on say an XF/AU Capped Bust Half or other vintage material. Not to have stickers on most $100-$300 coins in most cases, is probably throwing money out the window....over $200 it's probably foolhardy not to have the sticker. It does take some time such that your inventory is not available for a couple weeks. The downside is basically nil for collectors as they apparently don't get charged for coins that don't sticker. I wonder if bigger dealers who bulk submit to CAC "could" get different than the published rates such that it's less expensive for them than say your local B&M.
The typical refrain is that we buy what we like and sell what we like. Just remember that if the coin is not PCGS CAC'd you will get less money for it and often times considerably less....exception being the most generic of low priced generics. When it comes time to sell, no one cares what WE think. Unfortunately, most collectors won't get educated enough until after they sell. Don't confuse single "grading events" (or the last time submitted) with a coin's ultimate/consensus market value or the coin's consistent market grade....they are 3 different things.
CAC CAC everywhere. Now I "feel" that I have to have some...
I recall the first posts and the "I'm not going to waste my money" on a sticker attitude, I was right there with them. I have several coins that are well deserving of a bean and I am thinking I should pay to have them stickered. Amazing what some change in public perception (which includes the added auction values) can do to a person's own beliefs!
I have no plans to sell but why do I want a bean? It's the same coin either way. The value changes? Not if it is the same coin right? Wrong, there is money in plastic and stickers. I need those stickers to "feel" I have the proper value in my collection. And like RickO says, The gold sticker is virtual gold on a coin.
If it wasn't for the risk and cost of shipping and the additional cost for the service I would probably be doing the inevitable sooner than later.
@ricko said:
I believe CAC is a very strong contributor to the coin market. I did not always think that in the early days. Early on, my opinion changed as I saw the success of JA's project. The premiums alone show the weight of his judgement. My early opinion was based on what I perceived as a need for another opinion. I did not expect it to become as popular - and valuable - as it has become. There certainly is not as much forum discussion of CAC as there was in the early days - wow, there were pages of threads - but that is to be expected and proves the overall acceptance of the service. CAC is here to stay and there is no longer any debate about the attached value of a green sticker. The gold sticker is virtual gold on a coin. Cheers, RickO
Say what you will, but I was there late afternoon yesterday picking up a submission and had the pleasure of saying hi to JA for a quick minute. He was wiped out and said this is the busiest they've been in a while......
@Boosibri said:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
JA provides an opinion on a coin's grade, he does not state a fact about the grade. His opinion is a commentary on the opinion of either PCGS or NGC on the coin's grade. In other words, he gives an opinion of an opinion. He is roundly successful because his opinion is highly respected in the hobby.
To state that JA knows more than everyone (but Rick Snow) about every series is just silly.
I meant that on this forum there are a number of people claiming to know there series so well that they need no outside help. With the exception of Rick and a few other posters, I highly doubt their skills compared to JA and other experts who could offer support as a partner dealer.
Sorry for the sharp post previously but I still assert that in numismatics and in other fields/hobbies to think that you can go it alone is sheer ignorance.
If you are an experienced amateur or professional numismatist and have taken considerable time to learn about one or a number of series of coins, (as many folks here have), JA is merely a value adder and hardly a necessity
Your repetition of the word ignorance is insulting and incorrect.
@Boosibri said:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
JA provides an opinion on a coin's grade, he does not state a fact about the grade. His opinion is a commentary on the opinion of either PCGS or NGC on the coin's grade. In other words, he gives an opinion of an opinion. He is roundly successful because his opinion is highly respected in the hobby.
To state that JA knows more than everyone (but Rick Snow) about every series is just silly.
I meant that on this forum there are a number of people claiming to know there series so well that they need no outside help. With the exception of Rick and a few other posters, I highly doubt their skills compared to JA and other experts who could offer support as a partner dealer.
Sorry for the sharp post previously but I still assert that in numismatics and in other fields/hobbies to think that you can go it alone is sheer ignorance.
If you are an experienced amateur or professional numismatist and have taken considerable time to learn about one or a number of series of coins, (as many folks here have), JA is merely a value adder and hardly a necessity
Your repetition of the word ignorance is insulting and incorrect.
If John Albanese is the foremost numismatic expert on ALL series of American coinage, where are his published articles and books that prove that he is head and shoulders above everyone else? I have never read an publication written by John Albanese. I have never seen him listed as a speaker at a major or minor coin convention. If he is this exalted asset the hobby to whom everyone most bow, why hasn't he made himself more available, like say David Bowers has done consistently over many years?
Who decided that he is the best? What proof do they have? The fact that he was involved in the formation of the two leading grading services only shows that he an innovative business man. It does not prove that he is the greatest coin grader in history whose word can never be questioned.
This hero worship thing does him more harm than good. No human being is perfect.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Good grief. WTF does writing articles or or speaking at coin shows have to do with grading or detecting in a coin has been monkeyed with? Bowers is a great ambassador to the coin world but is not the guy I want giving me a second opinion in today's coin market.
Bill again you cite such things that people think he's a god or no one can question his opinion. The fact is I've never seen anyone say or imply that. It's only you and a few others who spray that straw man rhetoric around like cheap perfume. It's rather nauseating.
For that record John has spoken at summer ANA in Colorado Springs. I remember JD, Bill Shamhart, Larry Shepherd and almost every other heavy weight in the industry being in attendence. I learned a tremendous amount. I guess since you weren't there it doesn't count.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Whether he knows more about the coins than you or me is irrelevant. Most higher end buyers want a CAC sticker and I'll gladly pay the $12.50 on my coins. The $12.50 sticker on one of my MS-67 CC dollars netted me an extra 2 grand last year.
Nothing personal but Bill Jones and Coinstartled opinions and 50 cents, will get me a cup of vending coffee. I like both of these guys just fine but it is what it is.
@Boosibri said:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
JA provides an opinion on a coin's grade, he does not state a fact about the grade. His opinion is a commentary on the opinion of either PCGS or NGC on the coin's grade. In other words, he gives an opinion of an opinion. He is roundly successful because his opinion is highly respected in the hobby.
To state that JA knows more than everyone (but Rick Snow) about every series is just silly.
I meant that on this forum there are a number of people claiming to know there series so well that they need no outside help. With the exception of Rick and a few other posters, I highly doubt their skills compared to JA and other experts who could offer support as a partner dealer.
Sorry for the sharp post previously but I still assert that in numismatics and in other fields/hobbies to think that you can go it alone is sheer ignorance.
If you are an experienced amateur or professional numismatist and have taken considerable time to learn about one or a number of series of coins, (as many folks here have), JA is merely a value adder and hardly a necessity
Your repetition of the word ignorance is insulting and incorrect.
I know my series with the best of them, have won collector grading contests and still cannot recognize some doctoring techniques that JA can in his sleep. If I didn't care about not owning a doctored coin, then I do suppose that ignorance would be bliss
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan graded at MS66... But a Monroe Commem at that level is a different story.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@coinkat said:
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan... But a Monroe Commem is a different story.
I beg to differ. The last HA PCGS 1881-S MS-68 Morgan WITHOUT CAC sold for $4347.50. The same date/grade WITH CAC sold for $9693.75. Do you think it was worth the $12.50 for that sticker on this date?
Bill again you cite such things that people think he's a god or no one can question his opinion. The fact is I've never seen anyone say or imply that. It's only you and a few others who spray that straw man rhetoric around like cheap perfume. It's rather nauseating.
Well I guess you have not read any of Boosibri's posts, like this one, which is in this string of messages:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
According this the only person who can approach JA is Rick Snow, and that applies only to Flying Eagle and Indian Cents. JA is the only expert in all things, and the rest of us can go pound salt.
There! Now you have seen at least one person who has told that we can't question his opinion. TDN comes very close to the position in his post a couple of items up from this one.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@coinkat said:
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan... But a Monroe Commem is a different story.
I beg to differ. The last HA PCGS 1881-S MS-68 Morgan WITHOUT CAC sold for $4347.50. The same date/grade WITH CAC sold for $9693.75. Do you think it was worth the $12.50 for that sticker on this date?
Perhaps if you could provide the two links to these sales, we could see if factors other than the CAC sticker were responsible for the difference in the bids. Heritage has sold so many 1881-S dollars, it's hard to find a specific sale.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Seems that we need to just take a moment and just make sure this is an apples to apples and oranges to oranges comparison.
And just to be clear, there is a big difference between grading coins within a series, lecturing about those coins and having knowledge to detect all the potential issues that can impact what the ultimate grade should be for those coins TDN is a world class numismatist with exceptional grading skills. I read and respect his thoughts. There is a difference... A huge difference in terms of rarity and condition rarity in connection with identifying and owning the finest of any series. And some series are just in a different world than others. This point seems to be missing from the discussion. So I remain satisfied that there are several coins at several grade levels that just simply do not require a CAC sticker. And there are those that do. It should not be a "follow the heard mentality" or " the market demands this" or rocket science to figure this out.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I do not expect collectors to agree with me... And just so I am clear, I would never, under any circumstances, consider parting with my hard earned money to the tune of somewhere between 4347.50 and 9693.75 for an1881-s Morgan graded MS68 with or without aCAC sticker.
This date remains common... It is not a condition rarity even at 68.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I do not expect collectors to agree with me... And just so I am clear, I would never, under any circumstances, consider parting with my hard earned money to the tune of somewhere between 4347.50 and 9693.75 for an1881-s Morgan graded MS68 with or without aCAC sticker.
This date remains common... It is not a condition rarity even at 68.
Paying either of those prices goes beyond my level of understanding. The coin is so common and is often found so nice, that makes no sense to pay that amount of money for it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Wabbit2313 said:
Whether he knows more about the coins than you or me is irrelevant. Most higher end buyers want a CAC sticker and I'll gladly pay the $12.50 on my coins. The $12.50 sticker on one of my MS-67 CC dollars netted me an extra 2 grand last year.
Nothing personal but Bill Jones and Coinstartled opinions and 50 cents, will get me a cup of vending coffee. I like both of these guys just fine but it is what it is.
...and that was my point. The sticker is an adder of value but not a necessity to the experienced numismatist. If the less well qualified hobbyists rest better because JA says sleep tight, then that is fine.
@coinkat said:
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan... But a Monroe Commem is a different story.
I beg to differ. The last HA PCGS 1881-S MS-68 Morgan WITHOUT CAC sold for $4347.50. The same date/grade WITH CAC sold for $9693.75. Do you think it was worth the $12.50 for that sticker on this date?
Perhaps if you could provide the two links to these sales, we could see if factors other than the CAC sticker were responsible for the difference in the bids. Heritage has sold so many 1881-S dollars, it's hard to find a specific sale.
Here they are, and they both sold in the same auction. The CAC case is closed boys..
I do not expect collectors to agree with me... And just so I am clear, I would never, under any circumstances, consider parting with my hard earned money to the tune of somewhere between 4347.50 and 9693.75 for an1881-s Morgan graded MS68 with or without aCAC sticker.
This date remains common... It is not a condition rarity even at 68.
You said you didn't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-S Morgan. I showed you that the need is in fact there. It more than doubled the value over the other in the same auction. Go look.
Well the one that sold for $9 grand is nicer. The "cheap one" has more marks at the bottom of the bust, and a "whisker" on Ms. Liberty's cheak. The luster also does not look to be as good, but that might be from the photo.
Frankly I can't relate either of them at those price levels. I've seen 1881-S dollars with nice mirrors on both sides, which looks better than frosty luster to me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@coinkat said:
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan... But a Monroe Commem is a different story.
I beg to differ. The last HA PCGS 1881-S MS-68 Morgan WITHOUT CAC sold for $4347.50. The same date/grade WITH CAC sold for $9693.75. Do you think it was worth the $12.50 for that sticker on this date?
Perhaps if you could provide the two links to these sales, we could see if factors other than the CAC sticker were responsible for the difference in the bids. Heritage has sold so many 1881-S dollars, it's hard to find a specific sale.
Here they are, and they both sold in the same auction. The CAC case is closed boys..
>
Explain please the 1881-S MS68 CAC example that sold for Under $3900 late last year. Has the little green sticker suddenly become a doubler only in the last 6 months? That would be even more worrisome.
I suspect that the $9700 coin was seen as a possible moon money MS69. The green CAC may in that case have been a detriment to the realized price.
Based on the PCGS pop report, it seems there are 151 1881-s Morgans that grade MS68. My sincere apologies for not checking with NGC. Grading is subjective and the population seems to have only one way to go and it will be higher... Everyone has access to the same information and can govern themselves based on their analysis of rarity, condition rarity and the need to spend money on this.
I will swim in a different pond.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Bill again you cite such things that people think he's a god or no one can question his opinion. The fact is I've never seen anyone say or imply that. It's only you and a few others who spray that straw man rhetoric around like cheap perfume. It's rather nauseating.
Well I guess you have not read any of Boosibri's posts, like this one, which is in this string of messages:
If you think you know your series better than JA, you are either ignorant or named Rick Snow.
According this the only person who can approach JA is Rick Snow, and that applies only to Flying Eagle and Indian Cents. JA is the only expert in all things, and the rest of us can go pound salt.
There! Now you have seen at least one person who has told that we can't question his opinion. TDN comes very close to the position in his post a couple of items up from this one.
If you read his follow up reply it might clear things up for you.
TDN's post speaks volumes. For me it's more important to know why things didn't sticker and WHY.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones said:
Well the one that sold for $9 grand is nicer. The "cheap one" has more marks at the bottom of the bust, and a "whisker" on Ms. Liberty's cheak. The luster also does not look to be as good, but that might be from the photo.
Frankly I can't relate either of them at those price levels. I've seen 1881-S dollars with nice mirrors on both sides, which looks better than frosty luster to me.
And this is a perfect example on the value of CAC. Both coins are the same grade. Pre CAC the lesser 68 perhaps would have dragged down the value down of the better coin. Now coins that arent all there for the grade are being punished. I think it's the way it should be.
In today's market coins have to be all there and then some to ring the register.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Same auction, 2 coins same grade, one sells for double and happens to have a CAC sticker. I have seen the same thing with my own coins. All the best to those who want to save the 12 bucks on their expensive coins.
@BillJones said:
Well the one that sold for $9 grand is nicer. The "cheap one" has more marks at the bottom of the bust, and a "whisker" on Ms. Liberty's cheak. The luster also does not look to be as good, but that might be from the photo.
Frankly I can't relate either of them at those price levels. I've seen 1881-S dollars with nice mirrors on both sides, which looks better than frosty luster to me.
And this is a perfect example on the value of CAC. Both coins are the same grade. Pre CAC the lesser 68 perhaps would have dragged down the value down of the better coin. Now coins that arent all there for the grade are being punished. I think it's the way it should be.
In today's market coins have to be all there and then some to ring the register.
mark
c'mon Mark. Market on the MS68 Morgan is in the $4000-4400 range now. You want to suggest that a coin brings another 500 bucks because a hobbyist is consoled by the second opinion, fine. To think that a confirmation of the 68 grade by JA is worth $5000 is ludicrous.
Comments
so any cross over is ludicrous as well?
how about asking people what they think of a graded coin...i should stop doing that too, i guess.
and...i should never pay a dealer a percentage to buy a coin for me if it's TPG graded...cause that would also be ludicrous.
I like CAC coins and non CAC ed' coins. I buy coins I want.. sticker or not. And my eyes write the check. So the first test is my set of eyes.
I do however appreciate that if I see a coin I want to buy, that three professional graders and a finalizer at PCGS came up with a grade. Then, at CAC the coin got another set off professional eyes to look at it and liked it also.
I have also seen CAC ed' coins that were not nice at all to my eye.
I'm pretty sure that the interest was never in CAC or any TPG's for that matter, and in the first place. The interest has always been that a collector gets his money's worth for the coins he/she purchases (not for resale, but for their collection). At least that's what my humble thoughts are, But it's true : THE BEST EYES in the business gravitate toward the TOP. Enter added expense and value.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I think it's what the TPGs have been trying to tell us all along.
A coin isn't necessarily a grade; it's a price.
this thread gets a green sticker. it's pretty solid for a cac thread, but i've seen better.
That summarizes it perfectly. Buy what you like to look at for a price you enjoy looking at it.
Interest in CAC approval for 19th century gold continues strong.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I like CAC and Kool Aid...
I think you're right. I have a couple of bust golds that I will send in probably next month.
The shop I use is a sender-inner Steve is also a former PCGS grader.
He looked at my Eagle and says....go for it.
Some other stuff.... naaahh.... at least not yet. ???
Absolutely - CAC is not a factor for me as I don't do big ticket numismatic US Vintage Coins. I can c where it wb a good marketing tool on big ticket items.
A coin may go cac at point A in time but at point B in time if it goes bad in the holder due to accelerated tarnish then the sticker means nothing.
Most at shows can only afford standard range material less than $100, possibly mid range $100-$299, and top range above $300 stretching the curve.
I have noticed a large shift to graded US and World currency.
Most at coin shows can only afford under 100 bucks?
@Cougar1978
What venues are you visiting? Try Long Beach or FUN.
CAC's opinion is as valued as it always has been both good and bad. What I think you are seeing is the rarity premium diminishing for stickered examples of any given issue as it perforates throughout the market. It is still part of the optimal value add formula dealers use to add value to their inventory to make a living since buying cheap is harder than changing plastic and adding stickers albeit less risky than cracking out.
A gold sitickered coin in a OGH aid still the perfect storm of lquidity if one buys into the premise that the coin is the end all and be all of value.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Well said and my feelings exactly.
Why not have a third or fourth company put their little stickers on it too? Why not just sticker the slab to death and cover up the coin? Maybe we should have another company grade the slabs too?
Never been a fan, Never will. If it has a sticker on it so beit, but no way would i pay more for the only reason of having a sticker. I pay more if I like the coin.
JA provides an opinion on a coin's grade, he does not state a fact about the grade. His opinion is a commentary on the opinion of either PCGS or NGC on the coin's grade. In other words, he gives an opinion of an opinion. He is roundly successful because his opinion is highly respected in the hobby.
To state that JA knows more than everyone (but Rick Snow) about every series is just silly.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I like having another professional opinion. I like taking my coins directly to CAC to hear what JA thinks about their quality. His opinion has also influenced my collection to a certain degree in that most of my coins have similar attributes and in particular nice toning/natural surfaces. I don't always agree with his opinion nor does my dealer who is my most trusted set of eyes. I also like the market impact in terms of increased liquidity.
I meant that on this forum there are a number of people claiming to know there series so well that they need no outside help. With the exception of Rick and a few other posters, I highly doubt their skills compared to JA and other experts who could offer support as a partner dealer.
Sorry for the sharp post previously but I still assert that in numismatics and in other fields/hobbies to think that you can go it alone is sheer ignorance.
Latin American Collection
My perspective of grading has been that it is a beauty contest, and that the grade is the trophy assigned by those particular judges at that particular time. At such events, the audience can certainly have their individual opinions, but only the judges' determinations count in such venues. CAC is like the "finals," in the minds of many. It's a matter of prestige, and the designated beauty queens then start accumulating the endorsements.
As we know, lots of folks are disdainful of beauty contests, but lots of people, for a variety of substantial and insubstantial reasons, consider their outcomes significant.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
The waning interest in them most likely reflects current market conditions. Until the bids show some material progress in steady increase I don't see much opportunity there. Certainly for big ticket material there will be a demand for CAC especially for big $ top range coins over $300. However major market improvement is needed. They are a moot issue for a lot is what I do like mods, world, and currency anyhow.
For standard (less than $100) and mid range (100-299) US vintage material I have to laugh at someone spending money sending these to CAC.
Irregardless if somebody buried in some big ticket $2500 coin the sticker will help their marketing but experienced buyers wb looking at the coin. Any offer on these is usually somewhere between blue and grey if ventured at all. Some coins can have a wide range between these 2 bid CDN ranges. Right now any offers many make leaning close to blue. A lot of us set up at a recent show discussed this and this was a general consensus. Concern is not the sticker but where coin itself falls in said range and if retail buyer available.
I believe CAC is a very strong contributor to the coin market. I did not always think that in the early days. Early on, my opinion changed as I saw the success of JA's project. The premiums alone show the weight of his judgement. My early opinion was based on what I perceived as a need for another opinion. I did not expect it to become as popular - and valuable - as it has become. There certainly is not as much forum discussion of CAC as there was in the early days - wow, there were pages of threads - but that is to be expected and proves the overall acceptance of the service. CAC is here to stay and there is no longer any debate about the attached value of a green sticker. The gold sticker is virtual gold on a coin. Cheers, RickO
You're missing a very obvious point that has been with the TPG's from day 1, or at least since January 1988 when I first started submitting dozens of coins every month. That is, the grades often varied. 2-3 submissions, 2 different grades. Now what? When I first submitted all of my collection in 1988, half the coins came back lower than I thought they were....or at least half of what I had paid for them from 1974-1987. I wasn't a happy camper being "schooled" like that. No choice but to resubmit them to the opposite TPG service. Second submissions usually resulted in a higher grade at both TPG's. That was a real lesson early on. Grades were not fixed. What was a real slap in the face, was that a number of coins I thought were graded properly the first time (and then sold), ended up coming back a grade higher as soon as the new owners submitted them in 1988. That cost me $10K or more.
You might as well have multiple companies giving opinions because you can't get better than 66% agreement in many or most cases. If you're ragging on CAC as a waste of your resources....then the next sentence also has to be why does it take multiple TPG submissions to get the proper market consensus grade for that coin? And unfortunately, if the coin gets an upgrade gift, it stays there until a future upgrading cycle declares it solid for the grade.
Another point missing is TIME. Grades change over time. No debate there. Now you have to either resubmit that coin back to the TPG to get today's competitive market grade....or....at least get a 3rd party opinion such as CAC. Who knew back in 1988 that in the future you'd have to resubmit all your coins every 3-10 years to keep current, of particular concern to REG SET players.....or find someone like CAC who can gold sticker them or at least verify they are not grade-inflated "winners." For now, having made 1 trip to CAC since 2008 is still probably all that's required. But, who knows if another trip down the road will be in order to keep up? How to get rid of CAC? TPG's that grade with 80% or better consistency....AND....where the grades don't change over time. 3 out of 4 consensus in 1998 or 2008 should be no different than the same 3 out of 4 opinions in 2018.
One only needs to look at auction results, or Great Collections to see that coins in the $75-$300 price range typically recover the CAC fees. And in most cases for coins over $150, well exceeds them. Even on a lower $55 MS64 Morgan dollar, a CAC sticker will often get you $10 more, especially if it has attractive color (ie CAC agrees that color is NT). It's a no brainer on a MS65/66 Morgans and many other generics in that price range, especially for those posting their stuff on line for sale or at auction.
I typically see a $50-$75 spread at GC on MS66 common Morgans between CAC and non-CAC. Why not get that? And that's just as true on say an XF/AU Capped Bust Half or other vintage material. Not to have stickers on most $100-$300 coins in most cases, is probably throwing money out the window....over $200 it's probably foolhardy not to have the sticker. It does take some time such that your inventory is not available for a couple weeks. The downside is basically nil for collectors as they apparently don't get charged for coins that don't sticker. I wonder if bigger dealers who bulk submit to CAC "could" get different than the published rates such that it's less expensive for them than say your local B&M.
The typical refrain is that we buy what we like and sell what we like. Just remember that if the coin is not PCGS CAC'd you will get less money for it and often times considerably less....exception being the most generic of low priced generics. When it comes time to sell, no one cares what WE think. Unfortunately, most collectors won't get educated enough until after they sell. Don't confuse single "grading events" (or the last time submitted) with a coin's ultimate/consensus market value or the coin's consistent market grade....they are 3 different things.
CAC CAC everywhere. Now I "feel" that I have to have some...
I recall the first posts and the "I'm not going to waste my money" on a sticker attitude, I was right there with them. I have several coins that are well deserving of a bean and I am thinking I should pay to have them stickered. Amazing what some change in public perception (which includes the added auction values) can do to a person's own beliefs!
I have no plans to sell but why do I want a bean? It's the same coin either way. The value changes? Not if it is the same coin right? Wrong, there is money in plastic and stickers. I need those stickers to "feel" I have the proper value in my collection. And like RickO says, The gold sticker is virtual gold on a coin.
If it wasn't for the risk and cost of shipping and the additional cost for the service I would probably be doing the inevitable sooner than later.
Say what you will, but I was there late afternoon yesterday picking up a submission and had the pleasure of saying hi to JA for a quick minute. He was wiped out and said this is the busiest they've been in a while......
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
POTD
Did not have to read past the second post to get my thoughts on this.
If you are an experienced amateur or professional numismatist and have taken considerable time to learn about one or a number of series of coins, (as many folks here have), JA is merely a value adder and hardly a necessity
Your repetition of the word ignorance is insulting and incorrect.
If John Albanese is the foremost numismatic expert on ALL series of American coinage, where are his published articles and books that prove that he is head and shoulders above everyone else? I have never read an publication written by John Albanese. I have never seen him listed as a speaker at a major or minor coin convention. If he is this exalted asset the hobby to whom everyone most bow, why hasn't he made himself more available, like say David Bowers has done consistently over many years?
Who decided that he is the best? What proof do they have? The fact that he was involved in the formation of the two leading grading services only shows that he an innovative business man. It does not prove that he is the greatest coin grader in history whose word can never be questioned.
This hero worship thing does him more harm than good. No human being is perfect.
Good grief. WTF does writing articles or or speaking at coin shows have to do with grading or detecting in a coin has been monkeyed with? Bowers is a great ambassador to the coin world but is not the guy I want giving me a second opinion in today's coin market.
Bill again you cite such things that people think he's a god or no one can question his opinion. The fact is I've never seen anyone say or imply that. It's only you and a few others who spray that straw man rhetoric around like cheap perfume. It's rather nauseating.
For that record John has spoken at summer ANA in Colorado Springs. I remember JD, Bill Shamhart, Larry Shepherd and almost every other heavy weight in the industry being in attendence. I learned a tremendous amount. I guess since you weren't there it doesn't count.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Whether he knows more about the coins than you or me is irrelevant. Most higher end buyers want a CAC sticker and I'll gladly pay the $12.50 on my coins. The $12.50 sticker on one of my MS-67 CC dollars netted me an extra 2 grand last year.
Nothing personal but Bill Jones and Coinstartled opinions and 50 cents, will get me a cup of vending coffee. I like both of these guys just fine but it is what it is.
I know my series with the best of them, have won collector grading contests and still cannot recognize some doctoring techniques that JA can in his sleep. If I didn't care about not owning a doctored coin, then I do suppose that ignorance would be bliss
TDN, please give us an example of a doctored coin that you missed and JA discovered.
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan graded at MS66... But a Monroe Commem at that level is a different story.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I beg to differ. The last HA PCGS 1881-S MS-68 Morgan WITHOUT CAC sold for $4347.50. The same date/grade WITH CAC sold for $9693.75. Do you think it was worth the $12.50 for that sticker on this date?
Well I guess you have not read any of Boosibri's posts, like this one, which is in this string of messages:
According this the only person who can approach JA is Rick Snow, and that applies only to Flying Eagle and Indian Cents. JA is the only expert in all things, and the rest of us can go pound salt.
There! Now you have seen at least one person who has told that we can't question his opinion. TDN comes very close to the position in his post a couple of items up from this one.
Perhaps if you could provide the two links to these sales, we could see if factors other than the CAC sticker were responsible for the difference in the bids. Heritage has sold so many 1881-S dollars, it's hard to find a specific sale.
Seems that we need to just take a moment and just make sure this is an apples to apples and oranges to oranges comparison.
And just to be clear, there is a big difference between grading coins within a series, lecturing about those coins and having knowledge to detect all the potential issues that can impact what the ultimate grade should be for those coins TDN is a world class numismatist with exceptional grading skills. I read and respect his thoughts. There is a difference... A huge difference in terms of rarity and condition rarity in connection with identifying and owning the finest of any series. And some series are just in a different world than others. This point seems to be missing from the discussion. So I remain satisfied that there are several coins at several grade levels that just simply do not require a CAC sticker. And there are those that do. It should not be a "follow the heard mentality" or " the market demands this" or rocket science to figure this out.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Wabbit...
I do not expect collectors to agree with me... And just so I am clear, I would never, under any circumstances, consider parting with my hard earned money to the tune of somewhere between 4347.50 and 9693.75 for an1881-s Morgan graded MS68 with or without aCAC sticker.
This date remains common... It is not a condition rarity even at 68.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Paying either of those prices goes beyond my level of understanding. The coin is so common and is often found so nice, that makes no sense to pay that amount of money for it.
...and that was my point. The sticker is an adder of value but not a necessity to the experienced numismatist. If the less well qualified hobbyists rest better because JA says sleep tight, then that is fine.
Here they are, and they both sold in the same auction. The CAC case is closed boys..
https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1254-4537.s
https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1254-4536.s
You said you didn't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-S Morgan. I showed you that the need is in fact there. It more than doubled the value over the other in the same auction. Go look.
Well the one that sold for $9 grand is nicer. The "cheap one" has more marks at the bottom of the bust, and a "whisker" on Ms. Liberty's cheak. The luster also does not look to be as good, but that might be from the photo.
Frankly I can't relate either of them at those price levels. I've seen 1881-S dollars with nice mirrors on both sides, which looks better than frosty luster to me.
>
Explain please the 1881-S MS68 CAC example that sold for Under $3900 late last year. Has the little green sticker suddenly become a doubler only in the last 6 months? That would be even more worrisome.
I suspect that the $9700 coin was seen as a possible moon money MS69. The green CAC may in that case have been a detriment to the realized price.
Based on the PCGS pop report, it seems there are 151 1881-s Morgans that grade MS68. My sincere apologies for not checking with NGC. Grading is subjective and the population seems to have only one way to go and it will be higher... Everyone has access to the same information and can govern themselves based on their analysis of rarity, condition rarity and the need to spend money on this.
I will swim in a different pond.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
If you read his follow up reply it might clear things up for you.
TDN's post speaks volumes. For me it's more important to know why things didn't sticker and WHY.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And this is a perfect example on the value of CAC. Both coins are the same grade. Pre CAC the lesser 68 perhaps would have dragged down the value down of the better coin. Now coins that arent all there for the grade are being punished. I think it's the way it should be.
In today's market coins have to be all there and then some to ring the register.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Same auction, 2 coins same grade, one sells for double and happens to have a CAC sticker. I have seen the same thing with my own coins. All the best to those who want to save the 12 bucks on their expensive coins.
c'mon Mark. Market on the MS68 Morgan is in the $4000-4400 range now. You want to suggest that a coin brings another 500 bucks because a hobbyist is consoled by the second opinion, fine. To think that a confirmation of the 68 grade by JA is worth $5000 is ludicrous.
Mark, I sometimes wonder if the haters have already found out or are afraid to find out that their own coins did not pass.