For the 100th time, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy said coin at its listed price for said coin in said grade with sticker. JA is in the business of wholesaling coins, not stickering them. I will not look at any more CAC posts, because the same areas keep getting repeated, and the subject has been beaten to death.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@GRANDAM said:
Is John the only one who says yea or nea at CAC?????
What happens when he is no longer able to do so?
I've wondered about this as well.
When John hangs it up CAC will cease to exist in my opinion. After all his business model is to buy CAC stickered coins. CAC coins will then sell for an even higher premium like OGH. Non CAC coins will languish further
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Doesn't John have a son who works with him? Isn't he being groomed to take over some day?
Jack Nicklaus has a son who became a pro golfer. Jack won 18 majors, Gary qualified for one major and missed the cut. He never won a tournament. I for one will not have faith in CAC if John leaves or retires.
@GRANDAM said:
Is John the only one who says yea or nea at CAC?????
What happens when he is no longer able to do so?
I've wondered about this as well.
When John hangs it up CAC will cease to exist in my opinion. After all his business model is to buy CAC stickered
coins. CAC coins will then sell for an even higher premium like OGH. Non CAC coins will languish further
Doesn't John have a son who works with him? Isn't he being groomed to take over some day?
Don't know of the succession plans. Just giving a possible likely scenario. I'm a betting man
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones said:
I can't understand why most CAC supporters don't give the CAC approved NGC coins more credit. If you are not on the PCGS registry, what's wrong with an attractive, properly graded NGC product? You can frequently get the same quality coin for a lower price.
A place to start, would be to ask Legend. They stock almost no stickered NGC coins for their customers. The higher end coin market left the "buying the coin" realm back in late 2008. In order, it's now sticker, TPG plastic, grade, and then the coin itself. The order of priority and value determination pre-2008 was: coin, grade, TPG plastic.
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
As much as I disagree with some of her rants, she has and does purchase non-CAC coins. Laura openly admits that she occasionally disagrees with CAC and has had coins rejected unexpectedly. These are usually sold through wholesale operations. Legend's policy is to only sell CACed to its customers through its website. These are usually only PCGS coins, but there are rare exceptions.
@Justacommeman said:
Legend Auctions offer a wide pool of rarities and high grade coins period. Lots of coins aren't stickered in their auctions.
In fairness, when it started, my recollection was that it was largely PCGS-CAC coins with a few NGC coins (usually with CAC stickers). Over time, the quality of the consignments has dropped and there are more and more coins that I think Laura would consider (behind closed doors) dreck. I have been surprised to see uber common Franklin and Kennedy proof half dollars for instance. I see this as less of an attempt to expand its customer base and to expand sales into the non-PCGS/CAC combination than it is a realization that if it only accepted the quality of consignments of the Northern Lights collection or its early sales, it would have very few auctions. There is a dearth of quality material. This is no a shot at Legend, but I agree with Bill's comment that you don't go to a Lexus shop and expect a premium price when you trade in your Chevy.
@Coinstartled said:
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
@Elcontador said:
For the 100th time, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy said coin at its listed price for said coin in said grade with sticker. JA is in the business of wholesaling coins, not stickering them. I will not look at any more CAC posts, because the same areas keep getting repeated, and the subject has been beaten to death.
Smartest man in the room. I will try my best to join you
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
What percentage of the Pogue collection was undoctored A or B level coins? In the areas that I collect, less than 50%. So unless he's affixing a Spider-Man sticker for the fun of it, no is the answer to your question....
@Coinstartled said:
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
What percentage of the Pogue collection was undoctored A or B level coins? In the areas that I collect, less than 50%. So unless he's affixing a Spider-Man sticker for the fun of it, no is the answer to your question....
So were those acquisitions mistakes on his part? The Dexter 1804 Dollar had a counter stamp and a print as I recall.
@Elcontador said:
For the 100th time, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy said coin at its listed price for said coin in said grade with sticker. JA is in the business of wholesaling coins, not stickering them. I will not look at any more CAC posts, because the same areas keep getting repeated, and the subject has been beaten to death.
I do not believe this to be true. There are many coins John will not buy with his sticker on it. He does make some markets, or used to, but certainly not on every single CAC coin. From his site:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:
• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Same auction, 2 coins same grade, one sells for double and happens to have a CAC sticker. I have seen the same thing with my own coins. All the best to those who want to save the 12 bucks on their expensive coins.
The CAC coin happens to be clearly superior which is the point. Even w/o a CAC sticker I'd expect a MS68 that nice to bring very high end money....and much more than any typical MS68 CAC specimen. Someone will pay the $6K-$9K with or w/o a sticker, especially if someone is thinking a MS68+ grade....and a $15K price tag....$30K if it's 68+ PL. Actually, that's how that coin should be graded...MS68+. And it's also the case here that the $9K coin is semi-PL, if not borderline PL. The other coin was just frosty. Getting 68's with nearly PL or PL coins is very difficult....another avenue to upside potential. Potential upside seems to outweigh $2K-$3K in downside. If someone gets a 68+ on this one, it was a rip at $9K.
Heritage examples show a CAC price range of approx $3500-$6500 with $4500-$5500 being the norm. The one that fetched $9K did so for reasons not related to CAC (shot upgrade, PL, etc.) . 1881-S's in MS68 PL are pretty rare - only up to 5 graded at PCGS. Anything nicer will probably cost over $20K. If someone thinks these are common, or easy to get, they're only fooling themselves. With approx 500 legitimate MS68 common date "type" coin Morgans out there in the $3K-$5K range (the NGC coins can represent the 100% resubmissions over 30 yrs), and only 50% of those stickered (250), and then only approx 10% of those being PL (25), that's not a lot of coins.
I checked the cert# of 81-S MS68 Morgan.
Must have been sent in under reconsideration service, now shows 68+
My limited experience has been that a coin in an older holder graded before CAC started and now with a CAC bean, yields a likely pool of upgrade candidates.
@Coinstartled said:
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
What percentage of the Pogue collection was undoctored A or B level coins? In the areas that I collect, less than 50%. So unless he's affixing a Spider-Man sticker for the fun of it, no is the answer to your question....
So were those acquisitions mistakes on his part? The Dexter 1804 Dollar had a counter stamp and a print as I recall.
And no sticker. I'm just responding to your assertion that Brent should be able to sticker along with JA. Doesn't work for me...
@Coinstartled said:
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
What percentage of the Pogue collection was undoctored A or B level coins? In the areas that I collect, less than 50%. So unless he's affixing a Spider-Man sticker for the fun of it, no is the answer to your question....
So were those acquisitions mistakes on his part? The Dexter 1804 Dollar had a counter stamp and a print as I recall.
And no sticker. I'm just responding to your assertion that Brent should be able to sticker along with JA. Doesn't work for me...
Sorry that my point was misunderstood. I am not suggesting that any of the names noted should be in the professional grading business but rather are competent to successfully consider and purchase upper tier rare coins without consulting a higher authority.
That would depend upon how you define competent. Certainly he is capable of writing a check and Jay is capable of finding a nice for the grade Saint. I wouldn't have either of them screening my dollars for doctoring tho.
@tradedollarnut said:
Define consulted. Neither ever ever asked him to grade their coins for them I'll guarantee you that.
Checked the top five Saints that Brahin sold through Heritage in 2010. Realized from $149,000 to $276,000. Each had CAC'd and I am pretty certain that Jay had not purchased them already stickered. In fact a good portion of his coins were upgraded at PCGS.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
None of them own stickering operations so your question is not even applicable. And none of them are JA. The market has voted and put the power of another set of eyes into CAC's hands...for better and/or for worse. Those other dealers/collectors are free to buy/sell coins for their own accounts and/or customers....with the realization that when it comes time to sell into the broad market, that CAC, EagleEye, and Plastic will carry more weight than their opinions. Prove to me if it's different than that. Consumers these days vote on plastic/CAC....this thread has proved that over and over again. However, any of them are free to start up their own stickering operations and attempt to get a piece of that "easy" pecan pie. Since no one has yet to do that after nearly 10 yrs...it must not be so easy or profitable.
Every coin sold as part of the Pogue collection ended up with a price based on stickerability, plastic, and grade assigned/upgrade potential. Same comment for Newman and Gardner. The final price realized had a lot less to do with it just being in the Pogue collection....with many of them selected by Dave Akers, not necessarily the Pogues. Bill Jones does have a good handle on the irony of the situation that a Hall, Brahin, Cardinal, Pogue, Halperin, Carroll, Schwietz, and the 9 other top graders Caddyshack says none of knows, etc. have far less input on what a coin can bring in the market, or at auction vs. JA/CAC.
No doubt some of those guys above can figure out to 75-90% accuracy (in some areas) what will earn a CAC sticker....but none of them can be 98-100% unless their goal is to collect only CAC stickers and play for no brainer singles...never buying a great coin because it's probably in a holder/grade that can't earn a bean. Gene Gardner had a great set of eyes working with him...and about 55% of their coins stickered. The alternative is to crack everything out to the lowest grade possible and then get 100% CAC for bragging rights (100%) at the big shows. Not the best recipe for maximizing the value of your collection.
I'd like to see any of those top names mentioned above look at a sampling of mixed PCGS stickered/unstickered MS65 $20 Saints (stickers covered) and pick out the stickered ones even to 50% accuracy. Considering JA only stickers about 4-6% of all 65/66 Saints, that would be a "fun" exercise. I'd pick 94 nicer looking unstickered 65 Saints and salt in 6 stickered ones having average marks for the grade. I'm not so sure that even JA would pick those same 6 coins again.
@Elcontador said:
For the 100th time, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy said coin at its listed price for said coin in said grade with sticker. JA is in the business of wholesaling coins, not stickering them. I will not look at any more CAC posts, because the same areas keep getting repeated, and the subject has been beaten to death.
I agree that this is what a sticker "means" today. Though, call it a "symptom" and not the root cause for CAC. The reason for JA starting up CAC as expressed in public articles going back to JA's ideas in 2001-2002, was to help correct/identify the sloppy grading going on. That's it. Call it consumer protection. It was certainly not to start a new wholesale coin business.
@GRANDAM said:
Is John the only one who says yea or nea at CAC?????
What happens when he is no longer able to do so?
I've wondered about this as well.
When John hangs it up CAC will cease to exist in my opinion. After all his business model is to buy CAC stickered
coins. CAC coins will then sell for an even higher premium like OGH. Non CAC coins will languish further
Doesn't John have a son who works with him? Isn't he being groomed to take over some day?
Sons do not a successor make.
I went to a coin show today where was a dealer who has BEEN "grooming" his son. And he .....STILL... has to make almost EVERY decision, purchase, appraisal, sale, lookup, deal and handshake.
Always does.
While "son" can run errands around town and look "fathersonlyly", about all he is really QUALIFIED to do is open the case, hold the coin, and wait for dad to finish what he's doing.
RARE is the coin business that can survive the generational transition.
@Coinstartled said:
As I understand, the consultations went both ways, particularly with Duckor.
Jay is a friend. I take him at his word.
Believe what you want to believe.
Coinweek Dec 14, 2011
"""Dr. Duckor received an e-mail that said 'from an admirer' in the subject line. Duckor asked his wife whether he should 'open' this e-mail. She said, “go ahead, open it.” It was from Jay Brahin, who indicated that he was extremely impressed by Dr. Duckor's PCGS registry sets and Brahin sought advice. “I started talking with Brahin. Within a month, I decided I would put my Saint Collection back together,” Duckor recalls. “I credit Jay Brahin for rekindling my interest.”
Jay Brahin remarks that he “still” has “a copy of our exchange. It was very meaningful to me. It became a watershed connection for Steve, too. We had a pretty amazing partnership that made us the best informed collectors of Saints in the country. We missed nothing!”
Brahin continues, “Steve Duckor went from mentor to good friend to best friend. He started going to shows again after we met.” Further, “I was all over the coin world hunting down stuff,” Brahin fondly remembers, “we shared information” and thoughts about coins. “I found coins for him and we consulted each other on everything. I would have a coin sent to me and I would photograph it and send it to him right away. I knew if I liked it or not, but his reaction was always important to me,” Brahin declares."""
Sorry that my point was misunderstood. I am not suggesting that any of the names noted should be in the professional grading business but rather are competent to successfully consider and purchase upper tier rare coins without consulting a higher authority.
And you misunderstood my post in the same way. Not "being CAC/JA" doesn't mean you can't successfully navigate the upper tier of the rare coin market and perform very well. All those guys were doing it before CAC, including JA. These days though, how their selected coins financially perform in the end (ie at auction or on the bourse floor) will almost certainly depend on if they are CAC or non-CAC or CAC-able.
Another discussion on this might be why the auction house/Pogue removed all their CAC stickers before the auction? My gut feel is that they didn't fare as well as they expected and prices would be impacted. I felt the same way when sending some of my unstickered coins to auction and didn't agree with CAC on a number of them. Factoid - we don't get a vote. And the rest of the market picks up on the lack of a sticker. CAC may just be "running a wholesale coin operation." But they have a HUGE impact outside that realm. Probably 10X to 100X greater than they ever expected. And if these major collectors that overlapped the pre/post-CAC era (like Pogue) knew what the influence of CAC would be down the road, they'd have certainly approached the building of their collections somewhat differently, maybe radically different....especially the choice/gem gold coin collectors. All of us would have made different decisions along the way....including Pogue, Gardner, etc.
A Duckor/Brahin pedigree is fabulous. Yet what that coin realizes at auction is much more closely associated with the CAC sticker. I saw this wonderful PCGS MS65 1916-s $10 Indian (ex-Duckor) go off at GC in the past couple of weeks. No sticker. Looks solid for the grade to me. No doubt would have realized a lot more with a sticker (only 3 stickered in MS65, none higher....vs. probably 20 or so in M65/66/67 at PCGS/NGC). Not in the original Duckor holder anymore indicating other people aren't satisfied with a 65-no CAC grade. Their votes don't count either.
So to get back on topic... If you think interest in CAC is decreasing because of the decreasing prices realized by some of the coins, I think you might be wrong. I think it is more likely a reflection of (1) decreasing market prices generally/the state of the current coin market and (2) the population of CACed coins has increased as more coins are stickered. It all comes down to supply and demand. In many cases, there may have been a much smaller population of stickered coins but as more and more coins sticker, the market becomes saturated and/or suggest that properly graded examples are not as rare. It is the same reason that large increases in the population reports for TPGSs can cause prices to drop.
A wise man once said, "Open your mind and you might learn something new. Close your mind and dig in your heels, this will surely diminish your opportunities to learn."
@shish said:
A wise man once said, "Open your mind and you might learn something new. Close your mind and dig in your heels, this will surely diminish your opportunities to learn."
That quote can cut both ways with respect to CAC.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
CAC coins force more scrutiny upon examination by me - is this really an A or B coin? Is it really worth the premium? It What can I sell it for and make money.....
I have a beautiful PCGS CAC 1880-S MS64 Dollar that by far is an A coin which I bought from probably GC over a year ago paying $85 - have not been able move it for any decent margin above that.
Yes people my be getting more for their CAC material at liquidation but w the overall market stagnant and bids tied to bullion or stuck in port, sellers need to be careful bidding on this stuff especially if it's getting bid up by some collector / end user.
@pocketpiececommems said:
I agree with telephoto1. Option #5 Why pay for it when it's already graded.
Because it's only "temporarily" graded. IMO, better to pay $13 or whatever for another opinion than to send in for regrade and get same, +, same, +, +, bump! Why aren't you similarly chastizing those folks who submit the same coin to PCGS more than once?
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
The CAC bean helped me sell this in a few hours.
So who is wrong here PCGS or CAC? Either the coin is an AU58 and the Gold Bean makes no sense as there is no higher circulated grade than AU58 or the coin is an MS65 and PCGS blew it big time.
CAC got it wrong here. Even from the pics I can see wear.
Yes, that was a total surprise..
The elaborate and artistic designs on the state quarters is so superlative that one would think they would appeal to collectors worldwide. Maybe even on other planets.
Comments
I've wondered about this as well.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
1881-S at $9k when I got a nice PCGS 63 for $45? Bigger fool theory / end user excercise.
For the 100th time, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy said coin at its listed price for said coin in said grade with sticker. JA is in the business of wholesaling coins, not stickering them. I will not look at any more CAC posts, because the same areas keep getting repeated, and the subject has been beaten to death.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
When John hangs it up CAC will cease to exist in my opinion. After all his business model is to buy CAC stickered coins. CAC coins will then sell for an even higher premium like OGH. Non CAC coins will languish further
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
coins. CAC coins will then sell for an even higher premium like OGH. Non CAC coins will languish further
Doesn't John have a son who works with him? Isn't he being groomed to take over some day?
Jack Nicklaus has a son who became a pro golfer. Jack won 18 majors, Gary qualified for one major and missed the cut. He never won a tournament. I for one will not have faith in CAC if John leaves or retires.
Don't know of the succession plans. Just giving a possible likely scenario. I'm a betting man
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As much as I disagree with some of her rants, she has and does purchase non-CAC coins. Laura openly admits that she occasionally disagrees with CAC and has had coins rejected unexpectedly. These are usually sold through wholesale operations. Legend's policy is to only sell CACed to its customers through its website. These are usually only PCGS coins, but there are rare exceptions.
In fairness, when it started, my recollection was that it was largely PCGS-CAC coins with a few NGC coins (usually with CAC stickers). Over time, the quality of the consignments has dropped and there are more and more coins that I think Laura would consider (behind closed doors) dreck. I have been surprised to see uber common Franklin and Kennedy proof half dollars for instance. I see this as less of an attempt to expand its customer base and to expand sales into the non-PCGS/CAC combination than it is a realization that if it only accepted the quality of consignments of the Northern Lights collection or its early sales, it would have very few auctions. There is a dearth of quality material. This is no a shot at Legend, but I agree with Bill's comment that you don't go to a Lexus shop and expect a premium price when you trade in your Chevy.
So David Hall or Jay Brahin or Cardinal or Brent Pogue are not qualified to successfully acquire raw coins because they have no sticker to apply?
Must be some Everclear in that kool aid on this hot summer day.....
Smartest man in the room. I will try my best to join you
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What percentage of the Pogue collection was undoctored A or B level coins? In the areas that I collect, less than 50%. So unless he's affixing a Spider-Man sticker for the fun of it, no is the answer to your question....
So were those acquisitions mistakes on his part? The Dexter 1804 Dollar had a counter stamp and a print as I recall.
Of course you will. It is like looking at the Tiger Woods mug shot.
- Jim
I do not believe this to be true. There are many coins John will not buy with his sticker on it. He does make some markets, or used to, but certainly not on every single CAC coin. From his site:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:
• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.
I checked the cert# of 81-S MS68 Morgan.
Must have been sent in under reconsideration service, now shows 68+
My limited experience has been that a coin in an older holder graded before CAC started and now with a CAC bean, yields a likely pool of upgrade candidates.
And no sticker. I'm just responding to your assertion that Brent should be able to sticker along with JA. Doesn't work for me...
Sorry that my point was misunderstood. I am not suggesting that any of the names noted should be in the professional grading business but rather are competent to successfully consider and purchase upper tier rare coins without consulting a higher authority.
That would depend upon how you define competent. Certainly he is capable of writing a check and Jay is capable of finding a nice for the grade Saint. I wouldn't have either of them screening my dollars for doctoring tho.
Dr Duckor and David Hall consulted with Jay. Give him a bit more credit.
Define consulted. Neither ever ever asked him to grade their coins for them I'll guarantee you that.
I find it amusing most call him "john" Some because they had a phone call or email. Hey I have done that so "John" for me too ok?
Checked the top five Saints that Brahin sold through Heritage in 2010. Realized from $149,000 to $276,000. Each had CAC'd and I am pretty certain that Jay had not purchased them already stickered. In fact a good portion of his coins were upgraded at PCGS.
Perhaps he can join the discussion.
Jay can pick a very nice for the grade saint. Doesn't mean that Hall or Ducker consulted with him - more likely the other way around.
As I understand, the consultations went both ways, particularly with Duckor.
Jay is a friend. I take him at his word.
None of them own stickering operations so your question is not even applicable. And none of them are JA. The market has voted and put the power of another set of eyes into CAC's hands...for better and/or for worse. Those other dealers/collectors are free to buy/sell coins for their own accounts and/or customers....with the realization that when it comes time to sell into the broad market, that CAC, EagleEye, and Plastic will carry more weight than their opinions. Prove to me if it's different than that. Consumers these days vote on plastic/CAC....this thread has proved that over and over again. However, any of them are free to start up their own stickering operations and attempt to get a piece of that "easy" pecan pie. Since no one has yet to do that after nearly 10 yrs...it must not be so easy or profitable.
Every coin sold as part of the Pogue collection ended up with a price based on stickerability, plastic, and grade assigned/upgrade potential. Same comment for Newman and Gardner. The final price realized had a lot less to do with it just being in the Pogue collection....with many of them selected by Dave Akers, not necessarily the Pogues. Bill Jones does have a good handle on the irony of the situation that a Hall, Brahin, Cardinal, Pogue, Halperin, Carroll, Schwietz, and the 9 other top graders Caddyshack says none of knows, etc. have far less input on what a coin can bring in the market, or at auction vs. JA/CAC.
No doubt some of those guys above can figure out to 75-90% accuracy (in some areas) what will earn a CAC sticker....but none of them can be 98-100% unless their goal is to collect only CAC stickers and play for no brainer singles...never buying a great coin because it's probably in a holder/grade that can't earn a bean. Gene Gardner had a great set of eyes working with him...and about 55% of their coins stickered. The alternative is to crack everything out to the lowest grade possible and then get 100% CAC for bragging rights (100%) at the big shows. Not the best recipe for maximizing the value of your collection.
I'd like to see any of those top names mentioned above look at a sampling of mixed PCGS stickered/unstickered MS65 $20 Saints (stickers covered) and pick out the stickered ones even to 50% accuracy. Considering JA only stickers about 4-6% of all 65/66 Saints, that would be a "fun" exercise. I'd pick 94 nicer looking unstickered 65 Saints and salt in 6 stickered ones having average marks for the grade. I'm not so sure that even JA would pick those same 6 coins again.
I call him John because that is exactly the way CAC introduces him or refers to him to his customers.
"""Those other dealers/collectors are free to buy/sell coins for their own accounts and/or customers...."""
Good of you to accord them such privilege.
I agree that this is what a sticker "means" today. Though, call it a "symptom" and not the root cause for CAC. The reason for JA starting up CAC as expressed in public articles going back to JA's ideas in 2001-2002, was to help correct/identify the sloppy grading going on. That's it. Call it consumer protection. It was certainly not to start a new wholesale coin business.
Believe what you want to believe.
When he calls me he says this is John. Should we call him Fred instead?
Sons do not a successor make.
I went to a coin show today where was a dealer who has BEEN "grooming" his son. And he .....STILL... has to make almost EVERY decision, purchase, appraisal, sale, lookup, deal and handshake.
Always does.
While "son" can run errands around town and look "fathersonlyly", about all he is really QUALIFIED to do is open the case, hold the coin, and wait for dad to finish what he's doing.
RARE is the coin business that can survive the generational transition.
Coinweek Dec 14, 2011
"""Dr. Duckor received an e-mail that said 'from an admirer' in the subject line. Duckor asked his wife whether he should 'open' this e-mail. She said, “go ahead, open it.” It was from Jay Brahin, who indicated that he was extremely impressed by Dr. Duckor's PCGS registry sets and Brahin sought advice. “I started talking with Brahin. Within a month, I decided I would put my Saint Collection back together,” Duckor recalls. “I credit Jay Brahin for rekindling my interest.”
Jay Brahin remarks that he “still” has “a copy of our exchange. It was very meaningful to me. It became a watershed connection for Steve, too. We had a pretty amazing partnership that made us the best informed collectors of Saints in the country. We missed nothing!”
Brahin continues, “Steve Duckor went from mentor to good friend to best friend. He started going to shows again after we met.” Further, “I was all over the coin world hunting down stuff,” Brahin fondly remembers, “we shared information” and thoughts about coins. “I found coins for him and we consulted each other on everything. I would have a coin sent to me and I would photograph it and send it to him right away. I knew if I liked it or not, but his reaction was always important to me,” Brahin declares."""
And you misunderstood my post in the same way. Not "being CAC/JA" doesn't mean you can't successfully navigate the upper tier of the rare coin market and perform very well. All those guys were doing it before CAC, including JA. These days though, how their selected coins financially perform in the end (ie at auction or on the bourse floor) will almost certainly depend on if they are CAC or non-CAC or CAC-able.
Another discussion on this might be why the auction house/Pogue removed all their CAC stickers before the auction? My gut feel is that they didn't fare as well as they expected and prices would be impacted. I felt the same way when sending some of my unstickered coins to auction and didn't agree with CAC on a number of them. Factoid - we don't get a vote. And the rest of the market picks up on the lack of a sticker. CAC may just be "running a wholesale coin operation." But they have a HUGE impact outside that realm. Probably 10X to 100X greater than they ever expected. And if these major collectors that overlapped the pre/post-CAC era (like Pogue) knew what the influence of CAC would be down the road, they'd have certainly approached the building of their collections somewhat differently, maybe radically different....especially the choice/gem gold coin collectors. All of us would have made different decisions along the way....including Pogue, Gardner, etc.
A Duckor/Brahin pedigree is fabulous. Yet what that coin realizes at auction is much more closely associated with the CAC sticker. I saw this wonderful PCGS MS65 1916-s $10 Indian (ex-Duckor) go off at GC in the past couple of weeks. No sticker. Looks solid for the grade to me. No doubt would have realized a lot more with a sticker (only 3 stickered in MS65, none higher....vs. probably 20 or so in M65/66/67 at PCGS/NGC). Not in the original Duckor holder anymore indicating other people aren't satisfied with a 65-no CAC grade. Their votes don't count either.
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/401131/1916-S-Indian-Gold-Eagle-PCGS-MS-65-Duckor-Collection
So to get back on topic... If you think interest in CAC is decreasing because of the decreasing prices realized by some of the coins, I think you might be wrong. I think it is more likely a reflection of (1) decreasing market prices generally/the state of the current coin market and (2) the population of CACed coins has increased as more coins are stickered. It all comes down to supply and demand. In many cases, there may have been a much smaller population of stickered coins but as more and more coins sticker, the market becomes saturated and/or suggest that properly graded examples are not as rare. It is the same reason that large increases in the population reports for TPGSs can cause prices to drop.
No doubt in my mind Jay consulted with Dr Duckor.... so that's one perspective. Hall consulting with Jay is just a silly concept.
the cac market is as strong as ever.....just watch the heritage sale this week for proof. '
smaller collectors just don't like it. the big ones swear by it
life goes on
A wise man once said, "Open your mind and you might learn something new. Close your mind and dig in your heels, this will surely diminish your opportunities to learn."
And Amazon will trade at over a thousand bucks on Monday. It might be a $200 stock a year from today.
I agree with telephoto1. Option #5 Why pay for it when it's already graded.
Lafayette Grading Set
@Coinstartled WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
@caddyshack said:
the cac market is as strong as ever.....just watch the heritage sale this week for proof. '
smaller collectors just don't like it. the big ones swear by it
life goes on
And Amazon will trade at over a thousand bucks on Monday. It might be a $200 stock a year from today.
and sometimes...it's a little bit more
That quote can cut both ways with respect to CAC.
CAC coins force more scrutiny upon examination by me - is this really an A or B coin? Is it really worth the premium? It What can I sell it for and make money.....
I have a beautiful PCGS CAC 1880-S MS64 Dollar that by far is an A coin which I bought from probably GC over a year ago paying $85 - have not been able move it for any decent margin above that.
Yes people my be getting more for their CAC material at liquidation but w the overall market stagnant and bids tied to bullion or stuck in port, sellers need to be careful bidding on this stuff especially if it's getting bid up by some collector / end user.
Because it's only "temporarily" graded. IMO, better to pay $13 or whatever for another opinion than to send in for regrade and get same, +, same, +, +, bump! Why aren't you similarly chastizing those folks who submit the same coin to PCGS more than once?
CAC got it wrong here. Even from the pics I can see wear.
My point is todays hype is tomorrows rubbish.
A 1932-S Washington in a PCGS holder sold for $2000 a dozen years ago now it is worth $500-$600.
Hype was that the registry sets and the new collectors brought into the hobby via the state quarters would sustain the market.
It didn't work.
Yes, that was a total surprise..
The elaborate and artistic designs on the state quarters is so superlative that one would think they would appeal to collectors worldwide. Maybe even on other planets.