Do you trust ICG as a credible TPG? I see our old friend Centsles is selling lots of them on eBay.
Goldbully
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I think ICG is over grading their coins these days. Am I wrong?
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When it's 0.99 starting bid, the only thing that matters is the accuracy of the photos
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
..........and Centsles's photos are always washed out.
I trust ICG that the coin is authentic and would probably pay a point or two back what a PCGS one brings unless I really like the coin or think it's properly graded.
Absolutely this.
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
It's gonna be hit and miss on those fuzzy photographs. But, it's possible you might get a winner from time to time.
I agree with roadrunner on the fuzzy scans. In any event, I always thought he was shill bidding his coins up.
Terrible images...or scans.
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The old dilemma of searching for Neiman Marcus coins at WalMart prices. A bit of risk is not always a bad thing.
They are seriously using scans?... Apparently it's still 1997 where they are. If any of those coins have nice luster they are going to be leaving a lot on the table.
Collector, occasional seller
I really liked Dominion grading standards, who were the graders?
Last ICG coin I bought was the 2000 Goodacre Sacagawea presentation. I've left bargains on the table, no doubt.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I just bid face value on this coin .... ebay.com/itm/1812-CAPPED-BUST-GOLD-5-ICG-MS-62-RARE-EARLY-DATE-/142376965735?hash=item2126541667:g:x5QAAOSwhvFZELMt
I just purchased an ICG slabbed Irish Shilling for about 50% of what similar coins are going for in NGC/PCGS plastic. I'll pay that all day long if I agree with the grade. It has been cracked out and ready to be shipped off to PCGS.
Just like any other slabbed coin...they're all on the coin grading spectrum and you need to decide for yourself. Some are right, some are wrong and some can't agree.
Not ashamed price them as much as others. They are one of 4 TPG accepted by eBay.
Been looking for 4 so fill up my 20 coin slab storage box for anacs / ICG.
Back about 2003-4 I bought 8-10 ICG lincolns graded MS67RD from Teletrade. I sent the best 3 to GC to have PCGS give it their best shot. The 52-S, and 53-S came back as MS67 RD, and the 1938-D upgraded to MS67+ RD. Those three hammered for $1150+ on a buy-in of about $50. Of course these were older ICG graded slabs.
I have had bad luck with them overall. A few were undergraded, but most a grade or so over. The common junk is right, but the nicer coins, forget it.
At least centsles has decided to go with a third party for slabbing...
I've sold a 1999 MS70 ICG ASE for a pretty penny.
Real pretty.
Outside of that, and a little run flipping some ICG 70's, I usually stay away. Nice stuff, just not for me.
I don't see a problem with ICG auctions that start at 99c.
But his return policy excludes TPG coins:
WE WILL NOT ACCEPT RETURNS ON ANY PCGS, NGC, ANACS OR ICG GRADED COINS
I don't think you can win an Item Not As Described case because of the grade?
How about this one 1799 ICG XF-45.....how did they miss the obvious streak that was removed on the reverse????
That's a nice coin in the OP link. I would trust ICG on authenticity, but be a little cautious on the grade. The coin has some adjustment marks on the obverse, but those would not necessarily affect the grade, I suppose.
I have a run of ASE's by ICG that I got in 2002 or 2003.... they are very nice and appear to be graded accurately.... Cheers, RickO
if you look at some of his past prices realized, they are about right with the actual grade?
People seem to bid high in his auctions getting determined win them. If u looking pay high on that material go for it.
Living in Tampa where ICG is located it was very convenient for me to begin my TPG slabbed coins experience at ICG (2011). They let me come by the shop to ask questions, drop off coins for submissions, and pick them up. I had a LOT of raw coins that didn't straight grade, but fortunately most did. Over a 2 year period I had about a 90% complete set of Barber Halves in ICG holders, VF to AU grades.
By the end of 2012 I had learned that the Market didn't accept coins in ICG holders. I was told by a few dealers I tried to trade/ sell with that the coins were more valuable raw. I decided to slowly send my ICG straight graded coins (and a few ICG called cleaned) to NGC to be graded (raw). Almost every one came back with a straight grade, including most of the coins ICG called cleaned. A few dropped a point and a few gained a point, but most came back in the same grade that was on the ICG holder. All in all the grades balanced pretty even.
By early 2014 I decided to cross my Barber Half set to PCGS holders. The coins were all in NGC holders, a high percentage from the original ICG graded coins. It took me about 9 months to cross the coins, but every one came back straight graded. Some dropped a point, but surprisingly enough many more upgraded, several by 2 points. PCGS had graded some of those ICG coins at a higher grade.
I know my story isn't common, but my belief is that ICG provides an AMAZING service for the fee, and grades within market tollerance. The big problem, however, is the market doesn't accept the ICG slab. I've thought it would be very wise for PCGS to acquire ICG and open an East Coast office. Randy Brown (current FUN President) is as good of s finalizer as there is in my opinion. I may be alone on this thought.
All that said, I recently purchased a 1906 D Barber Half dollar from Centsles in a ICG MS 63 holder at a very reasonable price:
The photo is mine, not a Centsles scan. I sent it to PCGS for crossover; it came back in a PCGS MS 62 holder:
Yep, the coin dropped a point. I think part of that might have been the ICG holder, but I think the MS 62 holder is very reasonable for the coin.
I'm happy to see Centsles selling ICG graded coins. I bought a few coins from them in their home made slabs previously, but had to return them because they were cleaned. Now at least Centsles is selling market acceptable coins, even if the holder isn't.
The so-called market is driven by the collectors and dealers who only want all pcgs or all ngc or all pcgs & ngc slabs in their collections. Nothing really wrong with icg but the are in the minor leagues along with anacs and all the other TPG’s whether you like it or not. Thats the way it is, always was, and always will be.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I will be in Tampa (flying in there) and staying in St. Pete on May 20 to the 25th for a beach vacation, any coin shops or shows I should go to within driving distance? Should I go to ICG and drop some stuff off? I have a 9 coin batch that should be done that week before I get there as well that I maybe could pick up.... I just never thought about it. Are they pretty cool with people coming in? Do you need an appointment? I also sell my excess ICG through Ebay.
I crossed a 1887 MS64PL Morgan recently (cracked out and submitted raw) to PCGS. So I know they are at least in the ballpark recently.
On a non-coin note... Any ideas for things to do that you don't normally see on the touristy sites? Our theme park day got changed up with a coming addition to the family.
I just cracked and crossed my first coin ever last month.
1894 $20 ICG MS61 is now an NGC MS62
--Severian the Lame
The photos make all of the silver look overdipped. Or maybe they ARE overdipped?
@hutze1nm said: "A friend told me he went to Tampa on business, and dropped a dozen coins off at ICG. He told them he was leaving in four days and had the work done in three days for $15 each so they must try harder...LOL.
One of the ICG graders told his class that in the old days at ANACS they charged $100 just to walk in the door! Now, anyone can make an appointment and drop off coins at ICG.
@SoCalBigMark said: "I really liked Dominion grading standards, who were the graders?"
Mike Ellis was there for awhile. He teaches at the ANA Summer Seminars.
@Insider2 Thanks, maybe I will call ahead and ask if that type of service would be available to save on shipping both ways.
Centsles has to take returns whether he likes to or not. ICG can be accurate, you can call up grader Skip with the certification number and he will tell you what the grader comments are if any. If you think a coin is over-graded you could send it back in preferably with a long term dealer's comments in letter form that may carry added weight. I have had generally favorable results with them, even some upgrades when they were sent to another service. Strangely the two major usps losses I've suffered in the last few years were on their way to ICG for grading.
My bid value would reflect the no return policy and be PCGS value for a grading interval or two behind.
Starting bids useless info .. ICGs usually grade less .. say in terms of 2006 Silver Eagle anniv sets ...ICG 70s priced between PGS 69s and 70s
I love ICG and the depressed prices for their coins. I also like their graders who actually take the time to talk to customers.
All of these ICG bust halves are now in PCGS holders. One jumped a grade, one dropped, and the rest graded exactly the same.
Lance.
+1.......I don't rule anybody out if I need/like the coin.
I have had good luck buying from Centseles. I crossed a few at lower grades but the price paid was right.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The lefted streak is one of that coin's lesser problems. The whole darn surface as been "lifted." I think that it would get a "details, improperly cleaned label" if someone tried to cross it.
@ArizonaRareCoins said: "How about this one 1799 ICG XF-45.....how did they miss the obvious streak that was removed on the reverse????"
That is obvious corrosion on the reverse. Looks to me that an AU dollar was net graded to XF. I prefer it when coins are graded correctly and "detailed" if there is a problem.
@lkeigwin said: "I love ICG and the depressed prices for their coins. I also like their graders who actually take the time to talk to customers."
I don't think ICG graders are as busy as those working at PCGS or NGC...LOL.
BTW, I've NEVER gotten to speak with anyone of importance at PCGS during working hours. I have been able (on a few occasions) to get through the customer service "wall" and talk with graders at all the other services including CAC and have been very pleased with the way I was treated.
Question. Did you send the coins to PCGS while still in ICG slabs? I recommend anyone trying to cross coins from SEGS, ANACS, or ICG crack the coins out so they get a fair "look." I feel that PCGS and NGC would be crazy to cross second or third tier service coins at the same grade. That would be an admission that the grading is virtually identical; yet the cost, customer service, and speed of return is a better deal elsewhere.
Do I trust them? No, but the list of things I actually trust is pretty small. I don't have an intuitive sense of what their grade guarantee means (if they even have one) so I usually don't look at coins in their holders.
However, if there was a coin in that holder that interested me, I'd probably look at it and make up my own mind. There are dogs and sweethearts in every holder.
I totally agree.
I would be concerned that since ebay shut down Centsles/NNC from showing their fantasy grades, that ICG might be inclined to give them better or straight grades if they are making real money with their submissions. Since ebay requires 30 day returns on all coins to my knowledge, that leaves plenty of time for an attempted crossover and then return should the coin turn out a lemon.
Back in the day, ICG was as good as any for CC Dollars. I re-holdered 6 ICG CC Dollars with our host. Two went up one point (both 63 to 64). Four were the same.
I cracked them out, Insider. I was sure they'd grade problem-free and I knew I'd get a better shake raw.
Lance.
I'm good with any brand of holder. It's not important. What's in the holder and the price is all I care about. When I go to sell is when I look at cracking it out and sending it to PCGS or NGC.
@au58 said: "Back in the day, ICG was as good as any for CC Dollars. I re-holdered 6 ICG CC Dollars with our host. Two went up one point (both 63 to 64). Four were the same."
IMO, this may not be a good example and says nothing about how ICG grades. The reason is this. I take "Back in the day" to mean the dollars were slabbed a while back - perhaps even a decade or more. Grading standards have become much more liberal. Old slabs that were correctly graded AT ALL THE TPGS's at one time, now often jump a grade.
At the grading seminar in Jacksonville this past weekend we examined NGC and PCGS coins in holders that were over ten years old (grades covered). Going over the answers with the instructor we found almost a dozen cases where the grade on the label was too low by today's standards! The instructor has PR-64 and 65 Franklins graded in the 1980's that are now easily 66's and 67's! He will not resubmit them as it is an important lesson/proof about "gradeflation."
I've found some very nice coins in ICG holders over the years. One observation I've noticed is they often give a point bump for attractive toning. I bought this coin and had it crossed to NGC where it graded MS64*
I think we all know that attractive toning can bump a grade. However, IMO, that coin was over graded as a '65 due to the soft strike. I have noticed that all the TPGS are becoming a little more liberal with the sharpness of strike to rate a '65 grade. NGC got it right. I think PCGS would assign the same grade.
Regarding the OP's original question. I have an example of an ICG coin bought about 3 months from Centsles. I had an NGC submission ready to drop off at the CS show so I thought I would throw this ICG coin in to test their grading and to get another opinion on the coin. I cracked out an ICG MS65 1932 Washington Quarter that I paid MS63 money for. I thought it would come back as MS64. Turns out the market graded it for me- it came back as NGC MS63. I realize this is only one example but it does make me a little suspicious about what kind of deal ICG made with that dealer.
I avoid buying ICG coins because I am not much at cracking coins out. However, I do have about 6 ICG holdered coins in my collection because they were such a bargain and the coins are excellent. I wish the other grading services would adopt a holder such as theirs. It protects the coin from toning or changing after being slabbed. Seriously, PCGS AND NGC can't crack that riddle, but ICG can?