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Well struck high relief Peace Dollars
Peace_dollar88
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Grading services don't factor in "strike" when grading high relief peace dollars. Do you believe that well struck Peace Dollars carry a premium over what the Grade is?
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Well, that coin sure looks nicer than the grade that they gave it.
62 ?
yipes.
If you posted it was 66 I would have agreed with it.
Obviously missing something, or the TPG did.
They probably do carry a premium, but I've never been in a position to buy one so I don't know for sure. One person has been posting one that is only graded MS-62 for years on the web. I've never run into anything like that.
I would think that they would.
Any thoughts on this one ?
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I think it is probably more accurate to say that the grading services are well aware of the difficulties of properly striking the 1921 Peace dollar with a single blow, and this is most evident at the central points of both sides (Liberty's hair and eagle's feathers).
Yes, well struck ones command a premium.
Lance.
I would have no problem paying a premium for a well struck and attractive '21 like the one pictured in the OP.
Collector, occasional seller
With 21 peace dollars strike absolutely can play a roll in a higher price. There are buyers who specifically search out full hair and feathers and will pay up for strong full strikes. I've seen stronger but not by much. Yours is at the top end for a full strike 21
what is the grade of the one you posted OP? That is a very nice one!@!!!
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MS62, THANKS!
The "Guide Book of Peace Dollars" has a neat table showing the range of detail on 1921 coins and categorization of the results.
The number of publicly identified "nearly full detail" 1921 Peace dollars is very small -- maybe 25 thus far, including old auction listings.
The OP's coin is very nice, although tips of rays are flat. Date looks nice as does the neck.
Here are a couple of other pieces. The top coin brought no premium for detail because it was already "over priced" for grade (MS66). The bottom coin brought a substantial premium for detail with no regard to "grade" (raw).
A fully detailed 1921 will have rounded numerals and letters, complete, not flattened rays and central hair detail that is extremely close to the original bronze casts. (Pictured in the book as part of the table.) The very best pieces will show an "apple cheek" to Liberty.
A member on the NGC board has a couple of extremely nice 1921s. Maybe he will post them again.
The Apple Cheek is buy/no buy determining factor.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
The 1921 high relief peace dollar really starts to commands a strong premium at Mint State 66+ IMO.
@RogerB The lower one in your post is an awesome rendition of a High Relief Peace Dollar....What a terrific piece to find raw.... I am still looking for one of those.... Cheers, RickO
Absolutely, those that are very well struck command premiums for the grade. Many who buy the coin, not the holder would be very excited to find a coin such as yours P_D88.
Personally, I place a lot of emphasis on the hair details, the completeness of the rays. I wouldn't pay full price for a higher grade coin with mottled hair, whereas, I'd definitely pay quite a decent premium for yours, whose details are found much less commonly.
I'm sure you flirt with resubmitting this one though.
On the bottom piece, posted above, take particular note of the rays between I and B. Notice the divided ray just right of B. This amount of detail is almost never visible on any 1921. I feel that things like this, and rounded reverse lettering, are possibly more important than some other aspects. It's a lot like a standing Liberty quarter in trying to find full detail everywhere, not just on the head.
I love the 1921 Peace dollar. Nice coins everybody!
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unbelievable! Must has been one of the first few struck!
Nice coin and great information. You learn something every day...the "apple cheek" is a new one for me. Went back and looked at my MS63...sort of a "road apple" cheek. Take care...
CC
Can anyone explain the grading of 1921 Peace $....
Almost 20 yrs of collecting and looking at Peace $ and I still dont get how graders get to the grade on most of the coins Ive seen... its as though strike is not even a factor...
RE: "unbelievable! Must has been one of the first few struck!"
Coin detail involves three interconnected physical factors: Die/design, striking pressure, and planchet hardness. A deficiency in any one of these will result in coins that lack full detail. Die/design quality is comparatively constant from coin to coin struck. Pressure (in 1921 toggle presses) was fixed at die set-up by the foreman and should remain stable for the life of the dies. Planchet hardness was determined by annealing of planchets and time/temperature of the process. As this was done in batches, and more or less a seat-of-the-pants operation based on experience, one batch might be as soft as physically possible and another harder than expected.
With a high relief die, as in 1921, a fully detailed ("struck") coin required the convergence of best physical conditions for all three factors.
Two of deFrancisci's personal coins are in the Smithsonian, and although both are nicely detailed and have surfaces consistent with early strikes from new dies, neither is quite as full as the bottom coin.
[Per a question...Sorry, neither 1921 is for sale or trade, but thanks for asking. I don't usually buy or sell coins. The few I have are for research purposes.]
@RogerB As always I appreciate your knowledge!
@RogerB
In all of your research did you ever come across the name of the town in Italy where his wife/model - Maria Teresa Carafelli - was from?
From my research, she was from a small town south of Naples. Ive gone has far as looking at the US Census and Immigration/Naturalization records but they never mention the actual name of the town...
I know de Francisci was from Palmero.
I'll check. I know I came across it, but not sure if I put that in my notes. The de Francisci papers in the Archives of American Art and I know it is in there.
This is mine...the best I could find/afford within my means. I also perceive it to be particularly nice for the assigned grade, but am conscious of the "ownership adds a point" phenomenon
Are there any available photos of the 1921 Satin Proof Peace Dollars, and if so do they have the "apple cheek"? If no photos, have you seen any and do you recall?
I don't get how top pic evolves into bottom pic or vice versa. Look at the headband definition top to bottom pic. Look at the hair definition @ the temple.
Ah, I see, "Coin detail involves three interconnected physical factors: Die/design, striking pressure, and planchet hardness. "
Got it.
They are photos of two different coins.
mercurydimeguy - a very nice coin and certainly nice for the assigned grade! It is also of the strongly clashed reverse that adds a lot of interest to these pieces.
@mercurydimeguy
I love that
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mercurydimeguy - Here's another with the same kind of reverse clash, but before the Engraving department did some "erasing."
I'd buy that coin as a nice MS65 and be quite happy with it.
I've only cracked out one coin but this would be #2
@BIGAL2749 Trust me brother, I had to put the coin away out of my sight cause I've had it in my hands a few times with a pair of pliers
... it is what it is, I love the coin and most will be able to see it's PQ for the assigned grade.
@RogerB thanks for sharing, that is super cool. super strike, also!
I got this one some time back (posted it before too), it's pretty decent:
10-4,
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I love 1921 Peace dollars!
"Well-struck" coins are usually just above average. Truly well-struck coins are RARE! The second polished coin in Roger's post is remarkable.
As for the mystery associated with grading these coins........ if you focus more on luster and less on hits, the TPG's grades will make a lot more sense. These coins also have a different overall surface "look" than the later issues. Strike probably only matters if it's really exceptional or really poor. Even then it won't move the grade more than a point.
MercDimeguy's coin looks to be very nice for the grade.
Anyone want to care to GTG on this one ?
FYI - its has more luster in hand, but not a lot more...
One of these days...
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Here is the one that is currently my type coin. It's okay, but not nothing great.
RE: "The second polished coin in Roger's post is remarkable."
The coin is not polished. This is the natural satin-like surface. There's almost no luster.
Thank you, finding a colorful 21 took decades. You can occasionally find amber/russet toned examples. My 21 is pinkish/purple but to find anything close to rainbow is almost impossible.
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MS62?
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The very best pieces will show an "apple cheek" to Liberty
Roger, my first thought upon seeing that was that Miss Liberty was about to blow a bubble with her chewing gum.
@TonerGuy this is all I have! Not as impressive!
I like it! Any color on a 21 is a tough find! Well done! Cant say why its a 58... send it off to NGC and see if you can get into a MS62/63 holder.
Some gorgeous coins in this thread. One of my all time favorite series
I, too, have seen some very strong (for the series/grade) strikes in 62-64, but they are not always easy to find
Hair @ the center, what ya'll think? MS64+? I own this coin currently.
Very nice hair detail ! What does the reverse look like ?
How many have you seen with the split ray right of B?
(Clearly your second specimen is the only one in this thread so far).