How do you grade an acid treated or acid etched buffalo nickel??
BUFFNIXX
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Take a look at this ICG slabbed acid treated (etched) buffalo nickel. Look at their grade. How would you grade it??
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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I think it is a mistake to slab coins like that. It only reflects badly on the company that does the encapsulation. Just my opinion.
I look at these acid treated buffalo nickels as totally destroyed. They should be treated like they have a disease .
No sir, I don't like em!
pcgs and ngc and icg and anacs and segs among others will slab and grade acid treated buffs.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
If you say so. I will never be a buyer. I guess for good folks that can't tell the difference maybe that's a good thing. But honestly! I don't see anything at all good about acid treating a coin. JMO
the 1918/7-d sells for several hundred bucks sometimes looking like this coin and the 1916 doubled die obverse resetored dates ones are always asking over a grand.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Details holder I'm ok with
Low AU for that? Crazy.
It may not have the flat areas of a lower grade coin, but it has as "wear" of a different breed. I'm not much of a fan of net grading for a single scratch. Grade it details without it and choose your range.
This? The whole thing is blasted. Maybe -2 levels. If the grading gods disagree, I could live with a simple "genuine - acid damaged."
Can't these be done with a simple local application of the acid?
Ditto for the "Genuine - damaged" tag.
Pete
Genuine-acid treated. No numeric grade at all.
How about grade it damaged? I can live with that.
Same here. Let the market decide which "grade" level the coin would play out at in terms of price.
Gonna get me a $50 Octagonal someday. Some. Day.
Looks like they acid dated the whole obverse lol
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
As soon as it has been acid treated, it is altered surface....not sure why it would be treated differently than any other coin with an altered surface...Cheers, RickO
I have no problem slabbing acid treated coins or any other problem coins for that matter as long as the problem in noted on the slab label. Many rare coins are beyond the reach of the average collector and a problem coin may be entirely acceptable to a collector of modest means who can't afford a better coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It's got problems. Who can assign a grade ? "Details"tells us what logic and good vision should tell us. It's not what we want to hear. And somebody will love it in their collection if the price is right and they know the truth. (Disclosure is the name of the game). My opinion.
@MsMorrisine wrote: "Details holder I'm ok with. "Low AU for that? Crazy. "It may not have the flat areas of a lower grade coin, but it has as "wear" of a different breed. I'm not much of a fan of net grading for a single scratch. Grade it details without it and choose your range."
In the 1970's, the employees at the first third-party grading service at the international Numismatic Society's Authentication Bureau (INSAB) used the technical grading system that they developed for internal record keeping (to ID coins) at another authentication service. While INSAB charged for authentication, the opinions on a coin's grade were at first - given for free on a buff colored card.
The "Details" grading as done today (over forty years later) rather than "body-bags" is a copy of that "old" technical system. Grade the coin for its condition of preservation and then add modifiers. Based on that fact (I know the original developer of "Technical Coin Grading" and have been in his grading seminars all over the country), IMHO, the image of the ICG nickel is 100% AU. Its surface has also been completely altered with acid. For me, a much more pleasing appearance than just doing the date area. From what I learned, this coin would have been technically graded as "AU, Acid Etched."
If I understand you correctly, I'm in partial agreement. IMO, there should be no such thing as "net" grading. It can be extremely confusing to all but the people who use it. With "details" grading, net grading should have gone the way of the old technical system.
@BUFFNIXX wrote: "Take a look at this ICG slabbed acid treated (etched) buffalo nickel. Look at their grade. How would you grade it??
In my opinion, it has already been professionally graded correctly and not "net" graded due to the acid.
PS Any coin can be graded! In one seminar I was in, the correct Technical" grade of a coin we were shown was BU, holed. LOL. The instructor also showed a photo of a coin described as "BU, chopped in half!"
"In my opinion, it has already been professionally graded correctly and not "net" graded due to the acid."
Why not uncirculated then? A good job of acid treatment should restore the design in full. As to value-no better than "fair".
If someone wishes to spend the $ for slabbing, well, so be it. As long as the TPG states the facts, provided it is an acid treatment that coin received, or whatever other damage it might be.
If someone wishes to buy it, the seller can ask whatever he wants. .
Just everyone stick to the truth.Simple
+1
This one I obtained from my coin shop bid board 15 yrs ago.
With a coin that was treated that long with acid there are no original surfaces to determine grade as the acid eats away some material adding "detail" to the coin. Heck that date might not have even been visible before the acid treatment.
Genuine NO Grade.
ICG is pathetic. A coin that has been acid treated was done so because there was so much wear that the date could no longer be seen. Thus, the grade must be AG or lower. Apparently, ICG believes you can remove wear..........news flash ICG, you can't.
Does the ICG coin look any better than the ANACS coin? I was guessing the ANACS coin was net G.
+1
Collector, occasional seller
good point
My opinion, I would title the slab simply, " Acid Treated ". I like "Acid Treated " Buffs. Finding a rare date anyway you can on any coin, let alone Buffalo's, to me is very interesting!
I have the Key (Acid T.) 1913S Type 2 in the raw. How much can mine be worth? Thanks
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.acid treated 1913-s type two buffs are going in excess of $50 on the flea (eBay).
1913-d type twos are around $15 sometimes in the same venue.
and the 1918/7-d and 1916 doubled die are offered too
for the 8/7 in excess of $200 and the 1916/1916 in excess of $1000!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Sorry you believe that. When you remove material from metal...it is gone! What happens to a coin that is acid treated is the acid eats away the metal of the coin that was affected by the die differently. That is why when we split a nickel, the actual design is still present below the normal surface. In other words, the design of a struck coin goes into the metal and even below its visible surface as it is drawn into the die .
Now, just because a coin has no original surfaces from polishing, buffing, whizzing, acid, or simply being circulated it can still be graded based on the amount of details present. In the cases mentioned, all would be "detailed" graded except for the normally circulated coin as long as it was not scratched, etc.
I think you need to think this out while you consult the ANA Grading guide if you have one. I prefer the Bowers book. I see a full horn on the acid treated coin in the ICG holder. You might be in the ballpark if you thought the coin was XF, but AG? That's, well...never mind - you're the coin dealer.
You may wish to think things out also. The coin is not graded uncirculated because in the opinion of the graders it was worn a little before treated with the acid! IMO, the highest grade an acid treated coin could reach is AU-58 details as even a little acid removes some surface metal from the coin.
Furthermore, we are not talking value. That ICG coin is only worth what a collector will pay. I have an acid date 1918/7-D nickel from ICG and I hate that the coin looks normally circulated except for its date area!
Might as well call it Unc but it's not. It sure ain't AU either. Either way it's been worn to illegibility as to date. No way is it anything other than basal state. It can be identified as a Buffalo Nickel and that's about it. Artificial restoration of detail doesn't count in my book. If it's a rare date and/or variety it will have some added value but restoration of detail doesn't mean the detail is actually there.
Thank you!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.So, based on your 'reasoning', all anyone has to do is re-engrave or etch details back in to a worn coin and you can upgrade a coin based on "ANA standards"....lol, you really need to re-think that flawed reasoning.
I grade them "cull", which is lower than P-01 in my opinion. The only date that I, personally, would consider buying is the 1916/16. Still it could be a neat set to try to complete with all acid treated date coins. Some of the later dates may be hard to find in acid treated condition. The coins would be really cheap when compared to even VG's.. JMHO.
Bob
try finding a 1938d buff in good, about good, or fair. (not aided etched, just a regular coin). very tuff 2 do.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
No re-engraving involved. Just a drop of Acid to make the original date reappear or to be able to see once again.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Perhaps you might like to take another look at the 1913-S nickel in the OP again rather than post misinformation about the date not being visible on the coin. Additionally, you may wish to check a grading guide to learn what "Basal State" signifies before misusing those words to strengthen your argument.
The OP has posted an acid treated nickel. We are not writing about its value. As a "informed ?" group of adults, we are discussing its grade whether we like/would purchase it and no mater what TPGS slabbed it. We all agree the coin deserves a "details" grade. It is NOT Basal State. It is NOT MS. IMO, it has the details of an AU.
Nice try. most of us are not posting misinformation or changing the subject: "... re-engrave or etch details back in to a worn coin." We are not writing about adding anything to the coin that is not already on it. There is a perfectly legible date on the OP's coin. XF/AU coins USUALLY have a date on them! I believe I suggested that you take a look at a grading guide in a post above.
PS: I'm enjoying our debate...that's how I learn new things.
The whole point of acid treating a coin is to bring out the 'worn' details. If you take a circulated buffalo like this:
Acid the whole thing..as I have just done.. you get this...
As you can see , the horn and all other details have been artificially brought to the surface. This is exactly what was done to the coin in the ICG holder.The coin in the ICG holder does not have AU details, or even close to AU details. This is why ICG is a lower tier grading service.
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
+1
I wouldn't even give the coin a details grade. Look..........the reason for restoring a coin is to find out what date/mint it is. If you take a Buff that has been worn slick and use anything on it it is DAMAGE.
Sure.....slab the coin....fine. State what date and mint it is. Nothing wrong there.
Title the slab GENUINE - ACID TREATED.
Then offer NO GRADE. Let the coin stand for what it is, and if anyone is interested in it they can make their offer.
Even key or rare coins have value if they are restored to identify them.
This whole thing has gone way too far.
Pete
@basetsb said: "The whole point of acid treating a coin is to bring out the 'worn' details."
Yep, that's what it does. I agree. Thanks for posting a perfect, informative, actual experiment to back up your opinion. You should be a teacher.
@basetsb said: "As you can see , the horn and all other details have been artificially brought to the surface. This is exactly what was done to the coin in the ICG holder. The coin in the ICG holder does not have AU details, or even close to AU details. This is why ICG is a lower tier grading service."
Hopefully, You'll at least change your opinion to "close" to AU. LOL.
Once the "hidden" artifact of the strike that's imprinted into the atoms of the coin are brought out by acid THE DETAIL APPEARANCE of the coin is CHANGED. Where once there was NO HORN; it has one NOW. Otherwise, let's look at the details WE CAN SEE ON A COIN and PRETEND they are not visible so we can try to IMAGINE what the coin looked like before the acid was applied. OMG! Ever wonder why grading is so complicated?
NEWS FLASH for the western coin dealer: As soon as a TPGS (any of them) puts a coin in a "details" slab all bets are off. Even its "details" grade. Plenty of coins not the OP's in my opinion) - especially "liners" get a grade jump due to the "details" grade because no one cares!
Detail coins are graded by all of the TPGS for the amount of original design that is still present. Posters on CU are free to grade any way they personally wish - its all subjective.
On third thought, chances are extremely high it is genuine to me.
But can others say with 100% certainty it absolutely is?
If not, can it be put in a genuine holder?
@basetsb
Thanks for the pictorial demonstration
Interesting.
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I don't know how long you've been a dealer or collector but in the old days it was "anything goes." The old "Technical Grading System" was developed to describe coins in order to help ID them if they were lost, or sent in again. AU, acid etched date would have described the OP's coin along with its weight and photo that was also recorded.
When PCGS and NGC came along, collectors got mad with "body bags." The second tier services forced the top two services to change and offer "detail" grades. I believe the PCI red label slabs started this trend. BTW, a numismatist who graded for PCI during the 1990's told the class that dealers were constantly telling him on the phone and in person how they loved PCI red label coins because they could buy them on the cheap and have them straight graded at the top two services!
All the services offer "Genuine Only" slabs. The point is this: There is a big difference between an Unc details coin, a Good details coin , and every details grade between. The TPGS offer collectors the option. If they did not, you can bet they would hear about it from their customers - just as body bags.
Key words here are original design. The details that you see on an acid treated coin are not the original details.
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
I agree 100%. Let me ask all of you a question. Are the details on a CLEANED coin "original?" Are the details on a polished coin "original?" What about a WHIZZED coin's design details? The details on an acid etched coin are not "original" either. I cannot imagine any professional grader at a major TPGS not being able to grade one of the problem coins I have listed. No need to put down anyone who cannot or chooses not to grade one of those coins because as I posted, it does not matter if the grade is exact or .5 point either way. That's why I posted that XF-45 acid etched or AU-50 acid etched could probably be an acceptable grade for the OP's coin graded by ICG. However, IMHO, folks that call the OP's coin Basal State or Mint State acid etched should probably just read the posts rather than make them.
At this point, I feel like I'm conversing with a brick wall. I will try one last time. Grading a coin is done based on WEAR. All buffalo nickels that have been worn so heavily as to have the date worn off is in AG or lower grade. Dipping and acid etching a coin removes/wears the coin even further, thus it's grade/wear is now lower than before the acid etching was done. Any TPG that gives such a coin higher than AG is not reputable. You can NOT increase a coins grade by acid nor engraving "Details" back into the coin.....case in point. Here is a coin correctly graded VF details by ANACS that has been re-engraved to give the appearance of an AU/BU detail coin:
It's not basal or MS. It's a G to F that appears to be XF or AU because of the acid treatment.
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
The correct answer is "genuine-acid treated". The OP coin has been chemically re-engraved, if you will. It is not AU nor will it ever be again as it is no longer original...thus placing "AU details" on the holder is misleading. You can raise some details via acid etching but this does not magically restore it to a higher grade. It is simply an acid damaged coin that has more visible detail than it did before. This coin is worth nowhere near AU money and never will be.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I like the below AG grade.
@ArizonaRareCoins said: "At this point, I feel like I'm conversing with a brick wall."
Ditto. It's too bad we are writing about two different things on the OP's coin; yet we see eye-to-eye on the '93-S.
Best Regards.