@basetsb said:
It's not basal or MS. It's a G to F that appears to be XF or AU because of the acid treatment.
Question. If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
@basetsb said:
It's not basal or MS. It's a G to F that appears to be XF or AU because of the acid treatment.
Question. If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
If you zoom in and look closely at the coin in the ICG holder you can see that there is hardly any detail on the feathers or much of the high points on the reverse. If this were originally an AU coin, the acid would have brought out more detail
"Perhaps you might like to take another look at the 1913-S nickel in the OP again rather than post misinformation about the date not being visible on the coin. Additionally, you may wish to check a grading guide to learn what "Basal State" signifies before misusing those words to strengthen your argument."
Basal state equates to the grade of "poor." So get your grading guides out-specifically Photogade and Brown and Dunn. If you're an "old timer" you should remember those. They are the ones I use. In B & D it states that a Buffalo nickel in the grade of Fair has to be identifiable. In Photograde, in the lowest grade given-AG-I will quote-"Only a partial date will show but enough to be identifiable. " So yes-I call a coin without a date "basal state" or poor.
To add to my post above-from B & D-"Coin will be identified as to DATE, mint mark, (if any) and type. Emphasis is mine. What grade is below "fair?" Poor, or basal state.
I'm going to repeat this question I asked: "If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
Two members: @ArizonaRareCoins, and @MsMorrisine have chosen to "click the disagree icon" on one of my posts without answering the question above - possibly because the obviously correct answer from a Beginning Grading 101class would shred their opinions.
I thought CU was a forum to learn, discuss, and post opinions in agreement or not. I only have respect for posters who can voice an opinion and explain their reason behind it. Otherwise, I'll consider a post as ramblings from the uninformed. I'm waiting for an answer but I'm not holding my breath. LOL
@Insider2 said:
I'm going to repeat this question I asked: "If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
Two members: @ArizonaRareCoins, and @MsMorrisine have chosen to "click the disagree icon" on one of my posts without answering the question above - possibly because the obviously correct answer from a Beginning Grading 101class would shred their opinions.
I thought CU was a forum to learn, discuss, and post opinions in agreement or not. I only have respect for posters who can voice an opinion and explain their reason behind it. Otherwise, I'll consider a post as ramblings from the uninformed. I'm waiting for an answer but I'm not holding my breath. LOL
I seriously question if you should be involved with Numismatics. Apparently, you don't seen to comprehend the grading process. WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process. When you put a coin in acid, you are REMOVING metal/WEARING a coin. The amount of the surfaces that is eaten away by acid will determine what grade the coin will receive. I did NOT come here to argue/debate this with you. I tried to TEACH you about the grading process, but you refused to accept and continue to argue the fact. This is not a hard concept to understand. A weakly struck coin, that never circulated, with what appears to have XF details, is still Mint State. A coins grade is determined by wear and it's grade can not be increased by acid etching, reengraving, cleaning nor any other method.
A fool is a man that attempts to teach those that are unwilling to learn.
@ArizonaRareCoins said: "I seriously question if you should be involved with Numismatics. Apparently, you don't seen to comprehend the grading process. WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process."
There you go again...
Perhaps you would like to explain this ridiculous, uninformed statement of yours to a person who in your opinion should not be involved in numismatics: "WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process."
OMG! I guess marks, strike and eye appeal mean nothing and the ONLY difference between an MS-60 and MS-70 is the amount of WEAR. Did you read that grading guide yet?
"When you put a coin in acid, you are REMOVING metal/WEARING a coin. The amount of the surfaces that is eaten away by acid will determine what grade the coin will receive."
I agree, there may be hope for me after all.
"I did NOT come here to argue/debate this with you. I tried to TEACH you about the grading process, but you refused to accept and continue to argue the fact."
Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time with me here; however, while you are teaching me, it would REALLY HELP if you would answer my questions. I do not understand how you can write that an acid dipped coin with the details of an AU is actually G to F. So, permit me to ask you again: If I take an MS-66 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte") what would the "details" grade be if you were asked to grade it?
Here is a start: "_________, acid etched."
"This is not a hard concept to understand. A weakly struck coin, that never circulated, with what appears to have XF details, is still Mint State."
That's what I was taught in the 1970's. I don't think you young experts have managed to change that yet.
"A coins grade is determined by wear and it's grade can not be increased by acid etching, reengraving, cleaning nor any other method."
Let's see. Check out my first comment about "only wear." Next, I see you have brought up cleaning again ( I never got an answer about cleaning/polishing/whizzing/acid etching and how the TPGS treat them for details grades). So I'll inform you: The same, based on the amount of the coin's design still present. I believe THAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION. We just disagree on the grade but that's OK. You call the OP's coin G to Fine. I say it is XF to AU. For others reading this post, while the OP's coin may only have the VALUE of a G to F, that has nothing to do with the amount of detail visible in the slab. Coin dealers tend to look at coins differently from numismatists.
Furthermore, I believe engraving designs into a coin is classified as an alteration and this has no bearing in this discussion even though these fraudulently altered creations are now accepted in "details" slabs.
"A fool is a man that attempts to teach those that are unwilling to learn."
You are probably not a fool; but you do have some aversion to answering questions while teaching a low life as me who should not be involved in numismatics. You definitely have some different opinions from what I've been taught.
We can just agree to disagree as I don't have anymore time to be educated by you. Sincerely, THANK YOU!
PS Oh, the correct answer to the etched MS-66 nickel is AU-58, acid etched.
You can't. Something that's not really there can't be used as a reference for grading. So---no detail grade and "acid treated" covers it quite well I think.
disagree - after reading posts in this thread, the date would be present on an AU coin and would not need acid. The coin would have to be a much lower grade to require acid.
now.... on fourth thought, we've recently had a picture of a wheat that was reduced in diameter and thickness. Is it not possible that a MS coin was simply tortured with acid? Hmm..
all the more reason to simply say "acid damage"
I guess no one wants to go where no man has gone before.... is it possible that it is a counterfeit that is treated with acid?
I realize the stupidity of doing such on a simple nickel. It's not like it is a 8/7. It is a point to make that if, for instance, a counterfeit 8/7 were so abused to hide the truth.... would someone want that in a genuine holder if authenticity is unknown? If not, then any coin abused to the same point should not be in a genuine holder as a matter of policy, not "eh. for this widget who cares, go ahead."
Key words here are original design. The details that you see on an acid treated coin are not the original details.
they are exactly the original details. do you even understand how the acid works and what is happening to the metal it is applied to??
when the planchet is stuck by the dies the metal actually flows into the recesses of the die and becomes "work hardened" during the process. that means that it has a different hardness than the surrounding areas of the coin. when the acid is placed on the coin it reacts slower/faster depending on the relative hardness of the metal, so the date appears more like a shadow than anything else. it isn't typically on the coin for more than a few seconds and is a weak acid.
a good comparative process might be what takes place when you try to get the info off of an old grave stone. place a sheet of paper on it and rub lightly with a pencil or some chalk.
to the question of grading these coins, aren't they almost always PO/AG, that's why the acid is needed. just ID the coin and let the buyer and seller sort everything else out.
@MsMorrisine said:
disagree - after reading posts in this thread, the date would be present on an AU coin and would not need acid. The coin would have to be a much lower grade to require acid.
now.... on fourth thought, we've recently had a picture of a wheat that was reduced in diameter and thickness. Is it not possible that a MS coin was simply tortured with acid? Hmm..
all the more reason to simply say "acid damage"
I guess no one wants to go where no man has gone before.... is it possible that it is a counterfeit that is treated with acid?
I realize the stupidity of doing such on a simple nickel. It's not like it is a 8/7. It is a point to make that if, for instance, a counterfeit 8/7 were so abused to hide the truth.... would someone want that in a genuine holder if authenticity is unknown? If not, then any coin abused to the same point should not be in a genuine holder as a matter of policy, not "eh. for this widget who cares, go ahead."
You raise an excellent point. I have never seen an acid etched C/F of any kind. I have seen a high grade altered 1922-D cent that was acid-etched to hide the removed "D". If a counterfeit is made and then etched it will probably be done on a better date Buffalo nickel.
At the moment, counterfeiters are either lightly corroding or applying dirt to cleaned fakes to make them look original. Who would look twice at an 1804 half cent in XF/AU that deserves a "details" grade for "environmental damage." I've heard that Seated Liberty Half dollars in XF/AU or Unc w/rub have recently been detected at the TPGS. ICG caught a Seated dollar C/F in AU+ cleaned last week. Graders tell me that circulated coins that have been cleaned are often difficult to authenticate because the fakes are so good to begin with nowadays! I read where one long-time authenticator wrote that he was glad he was old and would be dead before another decade passed as by then no one will be positive about any coins authenticity!
If someone restores the date area and does not mess around with the whole coin, most will grade the coin as
“acid treated date, net AG03” or “acid treated date, net FA02” or “acid treated date, net PO01”. The three details grades mentioned here can easily be determined by the actual condition of the whole coin. I have seen some extremely worn buffs that were still able to have their date restored and thus earned the ignominious detail grade of PO01.
If the entire coin is “expertly” restored, as I have sometimes seen, then the grade could be called something like....
“acid treated surfaces, net VF details” or some other grade depending what its apparent grade looks like after the buff took his complete acid bath. There are some home brewed concoctions that even do a better job than inc-a-date. No matte what details grade you want to associate with, it was still dateless or nearly so before the surface alteration. I see nothing wrong with this approach either. Neither approach is wrong, only different. As soon as you mention “acid treated” its
“game over”! It is what it is. Next you get into the food fight as to what the coin is worth.
A great way to restore the date on a buff, IMO, is to put masking tape around the date area before doing the restoration. This looks good as it neatly “boxes” the date.
Not all buffs are created equal when it comes to restoration. I have seen some buffs, especially from the 1920s that do not restore well. Might have something to do with the mixture of the copper and nickel alloy, or...??
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Just in case nobody realizes. You don't have to restore a date in which you can tell it's a 1913 Type 1, by the raised mound. Then if your lucky to view the mintmark without acid, you have all the information you need to acknowledge what year buff you have there.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@joeykoins said:
Just in case nobody realizes. You don't have to restore a date in which you can tell it's a 1913 Type 1, by the raised mound. Then if your lucky to view the mintmark without acid, you have all the information you need to acknowledge what year buff you have there.
Thats true, and I have had a hard time restoring dates to 1913 type one coins. Best left as they are, dateless but identifiable.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
After your thread you posted, I decided to pick up a couple of rolls ( Dateless) just to be entertained for an hour or two. I paid 13C. a buff. is that a fair price? -Thanks
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@joeykoins said:
After your thread you posted, I decided to pick up a couple of rolls ( Dateless) just to be entertained for an hour or two. I paid 13C. a buff. is that a fair price? -Thanks
yep that is a good price. how many mint marked coins, if any, did you get? dateless coins are sometimes offered for prices up to a buck apiece.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Here is an acid treated buff that is being offered on the flea (eBay) right now at $427 or best offer!!!!
Need a high grade 15-s for your set? Well, here it is. I bet the seller would take a 50 percent discount and give
you a real deal at only $213.50!!! Bet this coin cost the seller all of fifty cents.
and you also get a neat obverse die break, maybe this should be called the “speared Indian variety”?
And finally this is a good example of the complete acid bath giving the coin a uniform appearance.
((And of course no mention of this being an acid altered coin.))
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It's funny you should ask. In the two rolls, I got approx. 30 with the MM's. also, he gave me a few partial dates in the two rolls as well. This owner is pretty cool, he offered me to even go through the buffs first before I purchase them. Yesterday, I didn't have the time. Maybe, I'll go back soon to go through them and pick all the MM'ed coins?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@joeykoins said:
It's funny you should ask. In the two rolls, I got approx. 30 with the MM's. also, he gave me a few partial dates in the two rolls as well. This owner is pretty cool, he offered me to even go through the buffs first before I purchase them. Yesterday, I didn't have the time. Maybe, I'll go back soon to go through them and pick all the MM'ed coins?
don’t forget to check all the p mint coins from the teens for the 1916 doubled die obverse. with restored dates these
are offered on eBay for over a grand. Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@joeykoins said:
It's funny you should ask. In the two rolls, I got approx. 30 with the MM's. also, he gave me a few partial dates in the two rolls as well. This owner is pretty cool, he offered me to even go through the buffs first before I purchase them. Yesterday, I didn't have the time. Maybe, I'll go back soon to go through them and pick all the MM'ed coins?
don’t forget to check all the p mint coins from the teens for the 1916 doubled die obverse. with restored dates these
are offered on eBay for over a grand. Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
Yeah, those two dates are the whole reason I buy the dateless. Found a few 14d's, 1913d Typ.2 and the biggie, the 1913s Typ. 2. The newly purchased ones I just rushed through. Later, I'll "Acid" them, after the Show tomorrow, maybe?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@BUFFNIXX said:
Here is an acid treated buff that is being offered on the flea (eBay) right now at $427 or best offer!!!!
Need a high grade 15-s for your set? Well, here it is. I bet the seller would take a 50 percent discount and give
you a real deal at only $213.50!!! Bet this coin cost the seller all of fifty cents.
and you also get a neat obverse die break, maybe this should be called the “speared Indian variety”?
And finally this is a good example of the complete acid bath giving the coin a uniform appearance.
((And of course no mention of this being an acid altered coin.))
What in the world is this guy thinking? Wouldn't surprise me if someone took his offer.
Besides, that Buff looks beat up before the acid was applied.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@joeykoins said:
It's funny you should ask. In the two rolls, I got approx. 30 with the MM's. also, he gave me a few partial dates in the two rolls as well. This owner is pretty cool, he offered me to even go through the buffs first before I purchase them. Yesterday, I didn't have the time. Maybe, I'll go back soon to go through them and pick all the MM'ed coins?
That's a very high percentage. I usually get 10% mm in dateless rolls. Don't restore them myself but sell them to somebody who does. A full roll of dateless mms will sell for more than a roll of full dates.
Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
"PS Oh, the correct answer to the etched MS-66 nickel is AU-58, acid etched."
Seems you're contradicting your own contention. By your earlier reasoning you should be calling it "MS66, acid etched". Either acid reduces the grade or it doesn't. Pick one. And actually the correct answer on the 66 hypothetical is "Unc. Details, acid damage" . But what do I know; I've only been a collector since 1970 and a dealer for over 30 yrs.
Oh, and as an aside... those are planchet lamination cracks on that acid treated 15-S, not die breaks.
to telephoto1
"Oh, and as an aside... those are planchet lamination cracks on that acid treated 15-S, not die breaks.”
thanks for correcting my mistake
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@telephoto1 said:
"PS Oh, the correct answer to the etched MS-66 nickel is AU-58, acid etched."
Seems you're contradicting your own contention. By your earlier reasoning you should be calling it "MS66, acid etched". Either acid reduces the grade or it doesn't. Pick one. And actually the correct answer on the 66 hypothetical is "Unc. Details, acid damage" . But what do I know; I've only been a collector since 1970 and a dealer for over 30 yrs.
Oh, and as an aside... those are planchet lamination cracks on that acid treated 15-S, not die breaks.
NOT AT ALL. The coin is no longer uncirculated once its original surface is etched to "matte" I agree AU-58, acid etched. It is the other folks around here who do not understand how this can be!! They wish to severely under grade the OP's ICG coin with the details of an AU.
When a coin is acid treated most always it's because they can NOT read the date. So, how in the hell could it go from dateless to AU I'm sure I don't know. But I'll tell you this-that coin has been destroyed. No two ways about it.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@keets said: Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
aren't there enough diagnostics on this Variety that the tpg's will attribute it sans date??
Yes.
I do not think either of the major two grading services, as well as ICG and Anacs and Segs would slab a 1918/7d
just based upon the diagnostics such as the mintmark position and the obverse die break. Coin if so identified
by me would be given an acid treatment over the date area, after having masked the area around the date with
masking tape to draw a sharp straight border around the date. Coin is worth more with the restored date than
without. Same goes for the 1916 doubled die obverse. If you happen to like an identifiable 1918/7d buff
with no sniff of the date then you can grade it yourself (probably fair or about good) and put in a Coin World
holder.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Sorry in my above post I was referring to what Keets said and not to Insider2.
Keets had said "Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
aren't there enough diagnostics on this Variety that the tpg's will attribute it sans date??"
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I, too have found a couple of the overdate once they were restored. I don't think any grading service would slab a dateless one on the basis of die markers, though. The MM position is distinctive-it leans to the left and is positioned under the right edge of the "E" in FIVE. Some few from a very early state of the dies may not show the die crack.
@crazyhounddog said:
When a coin is acid treated most always it's because they can NOT read the date. So, how in the hell could it go from dateless to AU I'm sure I don't know. But I'll tell you this-that coin has been destroyed. No two ways about it.
Look, I don't know how this thread became so complicated. Hopefully, most of us here can pick up a coin, look at it and grade it either using a grading guide or not. "Detailed" coins have a detracting problem. Pick one up, grade it by the amount of design visible and state the problem. While it is absolutely true that 99% of acid treated nickels were low grade DATELESS "slugs," not all acid treated nickels are low grade. An example of a high grade coin that was acid etched is in the ICG slab. It has been graded by the amount of design remaining and the problems (scratched, acid) noted on the label.
I do not think either of the major two grading services, as well as ICG and Anacs and Segs would slab a 1918/7d
just based upon the diagnostics such as the mintmark position and the obverse die break. Coin if so identified
by me would be given an acid treatment over the date area, after having masked the area around the date with
masking tape to draw a sharp straight border around the date. Coin is worth more with the restored date than
without. Same goes for the 1916 doubled die obverse. If you happen to like an identifiable 1918/7d buff
with no sniff of the date then you can grade it yourself (probably fair or about good) and put in a Coin World
holder.
ICG does grade 1918/17-D dateless nickels, etched or not. I've seen one that had (1918/7)-D on the label as the "D" was visible as well as some diagnostics. I'll bet the other TPGS would do the same as long as they saw enough on the coin to guarantee its authenticity.
==================================================================================================ICG does grade 1918/17-D dateless nickels, etched or not. I've seen one that had (1918/7)-D on the label as the "D" was visible as well as some diagnostics. I'll bet the other TPGS would do the same as long as they saw enough on the coin to guarantee its authenticity.
betcha Insider2 is one of the few collectors who would want a totally dateless 1918/7-d in a slab
on second thought
betchaa Insider2 is the ONLY collector who would want a totally dateless 1918/7-d in a slab,
When you can easily recover the 8 over 8 why wouldn’t you? Same comment for the 1916/1916
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Just about every coin has a value to someone so you would loose...LOL! I have a paper thin cent that has been etched in Coke. I had to pay $2 for it as the dealer thought it was a mint error. BTW, I own a VG-8, acid date 18/17-D in an ICG slab...I know that is not the example you posted.
Anyway, IMO a raw 1918/7-D with no date would make a great coin in a advanced authentication class final exam.
The 16/16 can be diagnosed by the double ribbon. Why ruin it with acid? This DESTROYS the coin in my book. I would MUCH rather have the one Not destroyed by acid. The one graded AU is a joke. Laughable all the way. Seriously ruined and junk.
You can like the junk if ya wanna like the junk and for any TPG to put such a coin in their holders is also a huge laughable joke.
Not only that but the coin holdered has been bathed in acid, the whole coin has.
AU? No freaking way!!
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
The 16/16 can be diagnosed by the double ribbon. Why ruin it with acid? This DESTROYS the coin in my book. I would MUCH rather have the one Not destroyed by acid. The one graded AU is a joke. Laughable all the way. Seriously ruined and junk.
You can like the junk if ya wanna like the junk and for any TPG to put such a coin in their holders is also a huge laughable joke.
Not only that but the coin holdered has been bathed in acid, the whole coin has.
AU? No freaking way!!
Have you ever seen a whizzed coin in a PCGS or NGC slab? If not....
@crazyhounddog said:
The 16/16 can be diagnosed by the double ribbon. Why ruin it with acid? This DESTROYS the coin in my book. I would MUCH rather have the one Not destroyed by acid. The one graded AU is a joke. Laughable all the way. Seriously ruined and junk.
You can like the junk if ya wanna like the junk and for any TPG to put such a coin in their holders is also a huge laughable joke.
Not only that but the coin holdered has been bathed in acid, the whole coin has.
AU? No freaking way!!
Right about most of what you said. For example right now of eBay there are three 1916/1916 buffs with acid treated surfaces, two just the date and one the whole coin took a bath. The raised date is now visible. Asking price is
$1185, $1113, and $1200. The one at $1200 is the one with the complete acid rinse. And if you don’t like these acid wretched you can have for $3999 the following DATELESS UNTREATED
coin for just a tad under $4000.00
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/kr/oxgepugns5j5.jpg “")
And the seller says about this coin -- "This is the real deal, 100% genuine, no problems, and certified by the best in the business; PCGS
Finally, a chance to complete your Buffalo/Indian Head Nickel collection for a reasonable price.
Guaranteed genuine by PCGS and myself.
This dateless nickel has all the tell tale features of a true 1916/16: doubled chin, lips, and headdress feathers” YES ALL THE TELL TELL FEATURES EXCEPT THE DATE!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
But you have to look at both sides of the argument here. There are enough people that do like acid treated nickels that they appear quite frequently on eBay and they sell. I would admit that once the acid dip is done the coin is in effect destroyed. What you are left with is like a cheap imitation of an expensive original painting.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Comments
Question. If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
altered surfaces,,,,,,,,,,body bag,,,,,,,,,,,,,no grade
Join the "real" world of the 21st century.
If you zoom in and look closely at the coin in the ICG holder you can see that there is hardly any detail on the feathers or much of the high points on the reverse. If this were originally an AU coin, the acid would have brought out more detail
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
"Perhaps you might like to take another look at the 1913-S nickel in the OP again rather than post misinformation about the date not being visible on the coin. Additionally, you may wish to check a grading guide to learn what "Basal State" signifies before misusing those words to strengthen your argument."
Basal state equates to the grade of "poor." So get your grading guides out-specifically Photogade and Brown and Dunn. If you're an "old timer" you should remember those. They are the ones I use. In B & D it states that a Buffalo nickel in the grade of Fair has to be identifiable. In Photograde, in the lowest grade given-AG-I will quote-"Only a partial date will show but enough to be identifiable. " So yes-I call a coin without a date "basal state" or poor.
So now, go and look it up.
To add to my post above-from B & D-"Coin will be identified as to DATE, mint mark, (if any) and type. Emphasis is mine. What grade is below "fair?" Poor, or basal state.
I'm going to repeat this question I asked: "If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
Two members: @ArizonaRareCoins, and @MsMorrisine have chosen to "click the disagree icon" on one of my posts without answering the question above - possibly because the obviously correct answer from a Beginning Grading 101class would shred their opinions.
I thought CU was a forum to learn, discuss, and post opinions in agreement or not. I only have respect for posters who can voice an opinion and explain their reason behind it. Otherwise, I'll consider a post as ramblings from the uninformed. I'm waiting for an answer but I'm not holding my breath. LOL
I seriously question if you should be involved with Numismatics. Apparently, you don't seen to comprehend the grading process. WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process. When you put a coin in acid, you are REMOVING metal/WEARING a coin. The amount of the surfaces that is eaten away by acid will determine what grade the coin will receive. I did NOT come here to argue/debate this with you. I tried to TEACH you about the grading process, but you refused to accept and continue to argue the fact. This is not a hard concept to understand. A weakly struck coin, that never circulated, with what appears to have XF details, is still Mint State. A coins grade is determined by wear and it's grade can not be increased by acid etching, reengraving, cleaning nor any other method.
A fool is a man that attempts to teach those that are unwilling to learn.
@ArizonaRareCoins said: "I seriously question if you should be involved with Numismatics. Apparently, you don't seen to comprehend the grading process. WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process."
There you go again...
Perhaps you would like to explain this ridiculous, uninformed statement of yours to a person who in your opinion should not be involved in numismatics: "WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process."
OMG! I guess marks, strike and eye appeal mean nothing and the ONLY difference between an MS-60 and MS-70 is the amount of WEAR. Did you read that grading guide yet?
"When you put a coin in acid, you are REMOVING metal/WEARING a coin. The amount of the surfaces that is eaten away by acid will determine what grade the coin will receive."
I agree, there may be hope for me after all.
"I did NOT come here to argue/debate this with you. I tried to TEACH you about the grading process, but you refused to accept and continue to argue the fact."
Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time with me here; however, while you are teaching me, it would REALLY HELP if you would answer my questions. I do not understand how you can write that an acid dipped coin with the details of an AU is actually G to F. So, permit me to ask you again: If I take an MS-66 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte") what would the "details" grade be if you were asked to grade it?
Here is a start: "_________, acid etched."
"This is not a hard concept to understand. A weakly struck coin, that never circulated, with what appears to have XF details, is still Mint State."
That's what I was taught in the 1970's. I don't think you young experts have managed to change that yet.
"A coins grade is determined by wear and it's grade can not be increased by acid etching, reengraving, cleaning nor any other method."
Let's see. Check out my first comment about "only wear." Next, I see you have brought up cleaning again ( I never got an answer about cleaning/polishing/whizzing/acid etching and how the TPGS treat them for details grades). So I'll inform you: The same, based on the amount of the coin's design still present. I believe THAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION. We just disagree on the grade but that's OK. You call the OP's coin G to Fine. I say it is XF to AU. For others reading this post, while the OP's coin may only have the VALUE of a G to F, that has nothing to do with the amount of detail visible in the slab. Coin dealers tend to look at coins differently from numismatists.
Furthermore, I believe engraving designs into a coin is classified as an alteration and this has no bearing in this discussion even though these fraudulently altered creations are now accepted in "details" slabs.
"A fool is a man that attempts to teach those that are unwilling to learn."
You are probably not a fool; but you do have some aversion to answering questions while teaching a low life as me who should not be involved in numismatics. You definitely have some different opinions from what I've been taught.
We can just agree to disagree as I don't have anymore time to be educated by you. Sincerely, THANK YOU!
PS Oh, the correct answer to the etched MS-66 nickel is AU-58, acid etched.
I see it as an impression of a date that was there. So how
would one grade an impression?
You can't. Something that's not really there can't be used as a reference for grading. So---no detail grade and "acid treated" covers it quite well I think.
disagree - after reading posts in this thread, the date would be present on an AU coin and would not need acid. The coin would have to be a much lower grade to require acid.
now.... on fourth thought, we've recently had a picture of a wheat that was reduced in diameter and thickness. Is it not possible that a MS coin was simply tortured with acid? Hmm..
all the more reason to simply say "acid damage"
I guess no one wants to go where no man has gone before.... is it possible that it is a counterfeit that is treated with acid?
I realize the stupidity of doing such on a simple nickel. It's not like it is a 8/7. It is a point to make that if, for instance, a counterfeit 8/7 were so abused to hide the truth.... would someone want that in a genuine holder if authenticity is unknown? If not, then any coin abused to the same point should not be in a genuine holder as a matter of policy, not "eh. for this widget who cares, go ahead."
@MsMorrisine
I think some of your points are valid.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Key words here are original design. The details that you see on an acid treated coin are not the original details.
they are exactly the original details. do you even understand how the acid works and what is happening to the metal it is applied to??
when the planchet is stuck by the dies the metal actually flows into the recesses of the die and becomes "work hardened" during the process. that means that it has a different hardness than the surrounding areas of the coin. when the acid is placed on the coin it reacts slower/faster depending on the relative hardness of the metal, so the date appears more like a shadow than anything else. it isn't typically on the coin for more than a few seconds and is a weak acid.
a good comparative process might be what takes place when you try to get the info off of an old grave stone. place a sheet of paper on it and rub lightly with a pencil or some chalk.
to the question of grading these coins, aren't they almost always PO/AG, that's why the acid is needed. just ID the coin and let the buyer and seller sort everything else out.
You raise an excellent point. I have never seen an acid etched C/F of any kind. I have seen a high grade altered 1922-D cent that was acid-etched to hide the removed "D". If a counterfeit is made and then etched it will probably be done on a better date Buffalo nickel.
At the moment, counterfeiters are either lightly corroding or applying dirt to cleaned fakes to make them look original. Who would look twice at an 1804 half cent in XF/AU that deserves a "details" grade for "environmental damage." I've heard that Seated Liberty Half dollars in XF/AU or Unc w/rub have recently been detected at the TPGS. ICG caught a Seated dollar C/F in AU+ cleaned last week. Graders tell me that circulated coins that have been cleaned are often difficult to authenticate because the fakes are so good to begin with nowadays! I read where one long-time authenticator wrote that he was glad he was old and would be dead before another decade passed as by then no one will be positive about any coins authenticity!
If someone restores the date area and does not mess around with the whole coin, most will grade the coin as
“acid treated date, net AG03” or “acid treated date, net FA02” or “acid treated date, net PO01”. The three details grades mentioned here can easily be determined by the actual condition of the whole coin. I have seen some extremely worn buffs that were still able to have their date restored and thus earned the ignominious detail grade of PO01.
If the entire coin is “expertly” restored, as I have sometimes seen, then the grade could be called something like....
“acid treated surfaces, net VF details” or some other grade depending what its apparent grade looks like after the buff took his complete acid bath. There are some home brewed concoctions that even do a better job than inc-a-date. No matte what details grade you want to associate with, it was still dateless or nearly so before the surface alteration. I see nothing wrong with this approach either. Neither approach is wrong, only different. As soon as you mention “acid treated” its
“game over”! It is what it is. Next you get into the food fight as to what the coin is worth.
A great way to restore the date on a buff, IMO, is to put masking tape around the date area before doing the restoration. This looks good as it neatly “boxes” the date.
Not all buffs are created equal when it comes to restoration. I have seen some buffs, especially from the 1920s that do not restore well. Might have something to do with the mixture of the copper and nickel alloy, or...??
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Just in case nobody realizes. You don't have to restore a date in which you can tell it's a 1913 Type 1, by the raised mound. Then if your lucky to view the mintmark without acid, you have all the information you need to acknowledge what year buff you have there.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Thats true, and I have had a hard time restoring dates to 1913 type one coins. Best left as they are, dateless but identifiable.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
After your thread you posted, I decided to pick up a couple of rolls ( Dateless) just to be entertained for an hour or two. I paid 13C. a buff. is that a fair price? -Thanks
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.yep that is a good price. how many mint marked coins, if any, did you get? dateless coins are sometimes offered for prices up to a buck apiece.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Here is an acid treated buff that is being offered on the flea (eBay) right now at $427 or best offer!!!!
Need a high grade 15-s for your set? Well, here it is. I bet the seller would take a 50 percent discount and give
you a real deal at only $213.50!!! Bet this coin cost the seller all of fifty cents.
and you also get a neat obverse die break, maybe this should be called the “speared Indian variety”?
And finally this is a good example of the complete acid bath giving the coin a uniform appearance.
((And of course no mention of this being an acid altered coin.))
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It's funny you should ask. In the two rolls, I got approx. 30 with the MM's. also, he gave me a few partial dates in the two rolls as well. This owner is pretty cool, he offered me to even go through the buffs first before I purchase them. Yesterday, I didn't have the time. Maybe, I'll go back soon to go through them and pick all the MM'ed coins?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.don’t forget to check all the p mint coins from the teens for the 1916 doubled die obverse. with restored dates these
are offered on eBay for over a grand. Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Yeah, those two dates are the whole reason I buy the dateless. Found a few 14d's, 1913d Typ.2 and the biggie, the 1913s Typ. 2. The newly purchased ones I just rushed through. Later, I'll "Acid" them, after the Show tomorrow, maybe?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.What in the world is this guy thinking? Wouldn't surprise me if someone took his offer.
Besides, that Buff looks beat up before the acid was applied.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Sounds like fun..Good luck.
Thanks!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.That's a very high percentage. I usually get 10% mm in dateless rolls. Don't restore them myself but sell them to somebody who does. A full roll of dateless mms will sell for more than a roll of full dates.
"PS Oh, the correct answer to the etched MS-66 nickel is AU-58, acid etched."
Seems you're contradicting your own contention. By your earlier reasoning you should be calling it "MS66, acid etched". Either acid reduces the grade or it doesn't. Pick one. And actually the correct answer on the 66 hypothetical is "Unc. Details, acid damage" . But what do I know; I've only been a collector since 1970 and a dealer for over 30 yrs.
Oh, and as an aside... those are planchet lamination cracks on that acid treated 15-S, not die breaks.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
to telephoto1
"Oh, and as an aside... those are planchet lamination cracks on that acid treated 15-S, not die breaks.”
thanks for correcting my mistake
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
aren't there enough diagnostics on this Variety that the tpg's will attribute it sans date??
Thanks!
> @keets said:
Oh, really? What are a few, thank you. That would be great to know.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I Don't
Steve
NOT AT ALL. The coin is no longer uncirculated once its original surface is etched to "matte" I agree AU-58, acid etched. It is the other folks around here who do not understand how this can be!! They wish to severely under grade the OP's ICG coin with the details of an AU.
What are a few, thank you.
the position of the MM and I believe there is an obverse die crack. Buffnix and koynekwest will be better informed on that.
Yes.
When a coin is acid treated most always it's because they can NOT read the date. So, how in the hell could it go from dateless to AU I'm sure I don't know. But I'll tell you this-that coin has been destroyed. No two ways about it.
I do not think either of the major two grading services, as well as ICG and Anacs and Segs would slab a 1918/7d
just based upon the diagnostics such as the mintmark position and the obverse die break. Coin if so identified
by me would be given an acid treatment over the date area, after having masked the area around the date with
masking tape to draw a sharp straight border around the date. Coin is worth more with the restored date than
without. Same goes for the 1916 doubled die obverse. If you happen to like an identifiable 1918/7d buff
with no sniff of the date then you can grade it yourself (probably fair or about good) and put in a Coin World
holder.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Sorry in my above post I was referring to what Keets said and not to Insider2.
Keets had said "Never found one of those. but I have been able to find 1918/7-d
aren't there enough diagnostics on this Variety that the tpg's will attribute it sans date??"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I, too have found a couple of the overdate once they were restored. I don't think any grading service would slab a dateless one on the basis of die markers, though. The MM position is distinctive-it leans to the left and is positioned under the right edge of the "E" in FIVE. Some few from a very early state of the dies may not show the die crack.
Look, I don't know how this thread became so complicated. Hopefully, most of us here can pick up a coin, look at it and grade it either using a grading guide or not. "Detailed" coins have a detracting problem. Pick one up, grade it by the amount of design visible and state the problem. While it is absolutely true that 99% of acid treated nickels were low grade DATELESS "slugs," not all acid treated nickels are low grade. An example of a high grade coin that was acid etched is in the ICG slab. It has been graded by the amount of design remaining and the problems (scratched, acid) noted on the label.
@BUFFNIXX said:
ICG does grade 1918/17-D dateless nickels, etched or not. I've seen one that had (1918/7)-D on the label as the "D" was visible as well as some diagnostics. I'll bet the other TPGS would do the same as long as they saw enough on the coin to guarantee its authenticity.
insider2 said.....
==================================================================================================ICG does grade 1918/17-D dateless nickels, etched or not. I've seen one that had (1918/7)-D on the label as the "D" was visible as well as some diagnostics. I'll bet the other TPGS would do the same as long as they saw enough on the coin to guarantee its authenticity.
betcha Insider2 is one of the few collectors who would want a totally dateless 1918/7-d in a slab
on second thought
betchaa Insider2 is the ONLY collector who would want a totally dateless 1918/7-d in a slab,
When you can easily recover the 8 over 8 why wouldn’t you? Same comment for the 1916/1916
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Just about every coin has a value to someone so you would loose...LOL! I have a paper thin cent that has been etched in Coke. I had to pay $2 for it as the dealer thought it was a mint error. BTW, I own a VG-8, acid date 18/17-D in an ICG slab...I know that is not the example you posted.
Anyway, IMO a raw 1918/7-D with no date would make a great coin in a advanced authentication class final exam.
Question? What is the date and mint of this coin.
The 16/16 can be diagnosed by the double ribbon. Why ruin it with acid? This DESTROYS the coin in my book. I would MUCH rather have the one Not destroyed by acid. The one graded AU is a joke. Laughable all the way. Seriously ruined and junk.
You can like the junk if ya wanna like the junk and for any TPG to put such a coin in their holders is also a huge laughable joke.
Not only that but the coin holdered has been bathed in acid, the whole coin has.
AU? No freaking way!!
Have you ever seen a whizzed coin in a PCGS or NGC slab? If not....
Right about most of what you said. For example right now of eBay there are three 1916/1916 buffs with acid treated surfaces, two just the date and one the whole coin took a bath. The raised date is now visible. Asking price is
$1185, $1113, and $1200. The one at $1200 is the one with the complete acid rinse. And if you don’t like these acid wretched you can have for $3999 the following DATELESS UNTREATED
coin for just a tad under $4000.00
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/kr/oxgepugns5j5.jpg “")
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/0y/2ni1x2s0kddr.jpg “")
And the seller says about this coin -- "This is the real deal, 100% genuine, no problems, and certified by the best in the business; PCGS
Finally, a chance to complete your Buffalo/Indian Head Nickel collection for a reasonable price.
Guaranteed genuine by PCGS and myself.
This dateless nickel has all the tell tale features of a true 1916/16: doubled chin, lips, and headdress feathers” YES ALL THE TELL TELL FEATURES EXCEPT THE DATE!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
But you have to look at both sides of the argument here. There are enough people that do like acid treated nickels that they appear quite frequently on eBay and they sell. I would admit that once the acid dip is done the coin is in effect destroyed. What you are left with is like a cheap imitation of an expensive original painting.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
........ if that original painting is a 1916/1916 doubled die nickel I should have added above.
Here is 1918/7-d aced etched I happen to own.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"