@crazyhounddog said:
When a coin is acid treated most always it's because they can NOT read the date. So, how in the hell could it go from dateless to AU I'm sure I don't know. But I'll tell you this-that coin has been destroyed. No two ways about it.
Look, I don't know how this thread became so complicated. Hopefully, most of us here can pick up a coin, look at it and grade it either using a grading guide or not. "Detailed" coins have a detracting problem. Pick one up, grade it by the amount of design visible and state the problem. While it is absolutely true that 99% of acid treated nickels were low grade DATELESS "slugs," not all acid treated nickels are low grade. An example of a high grade coin that was acid etched is in the ICG slab. It has been graded by the amount of design remaining and the problems (scratched, acid) noted on the label.
You're looking at this entire issue completely backwards, and it honestly hurts to the point where I will discontinue reading future responses on this thread. Do you want me to go take an better conditioned buffalo nickel and acid date it; it will not look like the coin in the ICG holder.
You've driven me to do this legitimate scientific trial of demonstrating how putting acid on the coin does not magically make it a higher grade than it was when the Ferric-Chloride was introduced to the nickel alloy (the coin).
For the demonstration, I have picked out of my junk pile three (3) buffalo nickels dated/minted/graded as approximately follows: 1936 P (VF20), 1937 P (VF25), 1937 D (VF25). Here is the process.
I will now place the first coin, a 1936 P VF20 Buffalo Nickel, onto the paper, absorbent surface. Cover entire coin in Ferric-Chloride to replicate appearance of coin in question (OP coin in ICG slab). Let Ferric-Sulfide sit on coin for 1 minute. Dab dry the side affected by Ferric-Sulfide and flip over. Repeat the trial for other side and other two coins, then rinse in water.
Before and after photos:
Now, are these coins still VF or are they now magically AU? The whole debate is ridiculous, and Acid treated coins should not be given a grade, or any sort of certification, case CLOSED...
@crazyhounddog said:
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
None of us should like destroying coins. Unfortunately, at least in the old days - decades ago, a majority of the folks putting acid on nickels were not numismatists! In the case of the 1916/16 and many 18/17-D coins they can be ID w/o acid. That is not the case with other scarce mint marked nickels. I suppose that's why folks still etch them. BTW, a good "doctor" can make many of these acid coins look normal enough. The one above that Buffnixx has is a good candidate.
Anyone wish to take a stab at "detail" grading the coin above my post?
Tom-they're waiting for a bidiot to pay $3999 for a dateless 16/16. That's the price of a Good with at least a partial date. But there's no shortage of bidiots out there.
@crazyhounddog said:
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
But you have to look at both sides of the argument here. There are enough people that do like acid treated nickels that they appear quite frequently on eBay and they sell. I would admit that once the acid dip is done the coin is in effect destroyed. What you are left with is like a cheap imitation of an expensive original painting.
No, what your left with is junk.
That's my opinion.
I think, I hope, I've made my point.
Carry on
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
None of us should like destroying coins. Unfortunately, at least in the old days - decades ago, a majority of the folks putting acid on nickels were not numismatists! In the case of the 1916/16 and many 18/17-D coins they can be ID w/o acid. That is not the case with other scarce mint marked nickels. I suppose that's why folks still etch them. BTW, a good "doctor" can make many of these acid coins look normal enough. The one above that Buffnixx has is a good candidate.
Anyone wish to take a stab at "detail" grading the coin above my post?
The Acid treatment should only be used to detect the original date. Not to upgrade!
Now on acid treating. Suppose you found an old beat up "V" Nickel in your grandmother's basement that is 100 yrs. old.
but you cannot detect what date that V Nickel is, wouldn't you try EVERYTHING to see if it's that Baby of all babies? the 1913 V Nickel!!! I think you would.
I know your going to say, let's not compare Apples to Oranges, right? LOL
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@crazyhounddog said:
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
None of us should like destroying coins. Unfortunately, at least in the old days - decades ago, a majority of the folks putting acid on nickels were not numismatists! In the case of the 1916/16 and many 18/17-D coins they can be ID w/o acid. That is not the case with other scarce mint marked nickels. I suppose that's why folks still etch them. BTW, a good "doctor" can make many of these acid coins look normal enough. The one above that Buffnixx has is a good candidate.
Anyone wish to take a stab at "detail" grading the coin above my post?
The Acid treatment should only be used to detect the original date. Not to upgrade!
Now on acid treating. Suppose you found an old beat up "V" Nickel in your grandmother's basement that is 100 yrs. old.
but you cannot detect what date that V Nickel is, wouldn't you try EVERYTHING to see if it's that Baby of all babies? the 1913 V Nickel!!! I think you would.
I know your going to say, let's not compare Apples to Oranges, right? LOL
That's just my point. I like original and if it was left to me by my loving grandmother I sure as hell am not going to destroy it with acid.
Of course this is just my opinion. But I'll tell you this! In all due respect I will never change my mind. I also think it's bad for the hobby as I'm sure some rookie collector will get duped outta their money with these.
Further more, I will not respond to this thread anymore and maybe it'll go away.
I'm more than sure I've made my point.
Happy hunting, Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
I took some dateless buffalo nickels, about a year ago, and soaked them in vinegar for about 3 weeks to see what would happen. They were Fair-AG condition when I dropped them in, and when I pulled them out I could make out the dates. I wouldn't assign any details grade to these- as they were Fair-AG to begin with....AU details? Shoot, if that's the case, everyone would be dropping dateless buffaloes in for "AU details"...not a hard thing to do. Especially, if you could find someone to give you VG-Fine retail price on a AU details piece! No grade should be assigned- misleading, and potentially damaging to the buyer...
@basetsb said: "[Insider] You're looking at this entire issue completely backwards, and it honestly hurts to the point where I will discontinue reading future responses on this thread. Do you want me to go take an better conditioned buffalo nickel and acid date it; it will not look like the coin in the ICG holder.
You've driven me to do this legitimate scientific trial of demonstrating how putting acid on the coin does not magically make it a higher grade than it was when the Ferric-Chloride was introduced to the nickel alloy (the coin).
For the demonstration, I have picked out of my junk pile three (3) buffalo nickels dated/minted/graded as approximately follows: 1936 P (VF20), 1937 P (VF25), 1937 D (VF25). Here is the process.
I will now place the first coin, a 1936 P VF20 Buffalo Nickel, onto the paper, absorbent surface. Cover entire coin in Ferric-Chloride to replicate appearance of coin in question (OP coin in ICG slab). Let Ferric-Sulfide sit on coin for 1 minute. Dab dry the side affected by Ferric-Sulfide and flip over. Repeat the trial for other side and other two coins, then rinse in water.
Now, are these coins still VF or are they now magically AU? The whole debate is ridiculous, and Acid treated coins should not be given a grade, or any sort of certification, case CLOSED..."
Well, at least one numismatist does not mind destroying coins. LOL. Anyway, destroying a coin as an educational experiment is fine w/me. Thanks! I've destroyed a few also in my time. Now to answer your question. The coins you etched are the same grade to me - VF. Only now they are accurately graded as VF-(whatever as I need to see the actual coins for a #) "Acid Etched."
No one raised the grade of the ICG nickel in the OP. The graders there assigned a grade of AU for the amount of design detail visible. It's called grading a coin. We can all disagree with the grade they assigned but the expert here who graded it G to F needs to take a grading class as he has no clue! I recommend the ANA Summer Seminar as I have been in several grading and authentication classes there over the years. I kept going back because I'm stupid and do not deserve to have an opinion regarding numismatics.
Furthermore, you cannot raise the grade of a nickel with acid except that you can raise its APPARENT GRADE as soon as its date pops out when it was not on the original low grade piece. And you certainly can raise the value and collectability of a dateless, mint marked slug with a drop of acid. case CLOSED!
@crazyhounddog said: "I like original and if it was left to me by my loving grandmother I sure as hell am not going to destroy it with acid. Of course this is just my opinion. But I'll tell you this! In all due respect I will never change my mind. I also think it's bad for the hobby as I'm sure some rookie collector will get duped outta their money with these. Further more, I will not respond to this thread anymore and maybe it'll go away. I'm more than sure I've made my point."
Must be nice to afford the original coins you collect. I'm just a "junk box" collector. Thankfully, the TPGS cater to the rest of us and slab our problem coins. Hope you hang around...Bye.
@crazyhounddog said:
I have come to terms with not having one in my collection unless I would happen to stumble across one in a hoard of dateless buffalo nickels BUT! They are all being destroyed by this acid. Maybe you see by reading my responses that I am NOT a fan of destroying coins.
I wish it would stop.
Furthermore, putting these coins in any holder I think is a crime all by itself, even genuine. I like my coins not destroyed.
But you have to look at both sides of the argument here. There are enough people that do like acid treated nickels that they appear quite frequently on eBay and they sell. I would admit that once the acid dip is done the coin is in effect destroyed. What you are left with is like a cheap imitation of an expensive original painting.
I once found a dateless 16/16 in a bag of buffalos. I thought about getting it restored but left it untouched and had it slabbed by SEGS who rated it Fair 2. Sold it on ebay for about $335. I still search dateless buffs and seeing what the restored dates go for, I don't think I'd do the same thing again. The good party of the story is the money I made helped me buy one with a date.
Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
@PocketArt said:
I took some dateless buffalo nickels, about a year ago, and soaked them in vinegar for about 3 weeks to see what would happen. They were Fair-AG condition when I dropped them in, and when I pulled them out I could make out the dates. I wouldn't assign any details grade to these- as they were Fair-AG to begin with....AU details? Shoot, if that's the case, everyone would be dropping dateless buffaloes in for "AU details"...not a hard thing to do. Especially, if you could find someone to give you VG-Fine retail price on a AU details piece! No grade should be assigned- misleading, and potentially damaging to the buyer...
Some of the people I know warned me about coin forums. They don't participate now. I see why. You can waste a lot of time dealing with off-track, misinformation that works into a thread when some "Ex-Pert" claims an AU Details coin looks like it is a G to F!
Perhaps you should look at the coin in the OP before posting an opinion. A dateless nickel is not an AU! A TPGS would not grade it that way because ALL THE MAJOR TPGS back up their grading and authentication opinion with cash, replacement coins, free submissions, or a combination of these. I know they all have.
You guys have a beef with the grading services. Write them and say you don't like/will not buy any coins in their details slabs. Tell them to stop it right now as the coins are junk! LOL!
P.S. Vinegar is a good "trick." I saw some nickels restored this way on another forum. The etch is not as severe.
@PocketArt said:
I took some dateless buffalo nickels, about a year ago, and soaked them in vinegar for about 3 weeks to see what would happen. They were Fair-AG condition when I dropped them in, and when I pulled them out I could make out the dates. I wouldn't assign any details grade to these- as they were Fair-AG to begin with....AU details? Shoot, if that's the case, everyone would be dropping dateless buffaloes in for "AU details"...not a hard thing to do. Especially, if you could find someone to give you VG-Fine retail price on a AU details piece! No grade should be assigned- misleading, and potentially damaging to the buyer...
Some of the people I know warned me about coin forums. They don't participate now. I see why. You can waste a lot of time dealing with off-track, misinformation that works into a thread when some "Ex-Pert" claims an AU Details coin looks like it is a G to F!
Perhaps you should look at the coin in the OP before posting an opinion. A dateless nickel is not an AU! A TPGS would not grade it that way because ALL THE MAJOR TPGS back up their grading and authentication opinion with cash, replacement coins, free submissions, or a combination of these. I know they all have.
You guys have a beef with the grading services. Write them and say you don't like/will not buy any coins in their details slabs. Tell them to stop it right now as the coins are junk! LOL!
P.S. Vinegar is a good "trick." I saw some nickels restored this way on another forum. The etch is not as severe.
I don't think you took the time to read my post before responding on what you already intended to say- make sense? It's cool- you have a lot on your chest, let it out, I'm not here as an "ex-pert" as you claim, didn't say I was....
Re-read my post and I think you'll get a different clue...as clearly I didn't post what you surmise, and projected.
@PocketArt Your post was perfectly fine with a great tip about vinegar. In a previous post - before you got on this thread, a dealer member claimed the coin in the OP graded AU details by ICG was a G to F. Of course it is not.
He is the "expert" as he buys and sells coins.
Your post picked up on his statement. Only one person here believes that. Others say the coins are junk. There is nothing incorrect about their personal opinion. But saying a coin with the details of an XF/AU is G to F...
@Insider2 said: @PocketArt Your post was perfectly fine with a great tip about vinegar. In a previous post - before you got on this thread, a dealer member claimed the coin in the OP graded AU details by ICG was a G to F. Of course it is not.
He is the "expert" as he buys and sells coins.
Your post picked up on his statement. Only one person here believes that. Others say the coins are junk. There is nothing incorrect about their personal opinion. But saying a coin with the details of an XF/AU is G to F...
Gotcha, sorry for confusion, and thanks for clarity.
@Insider2 said:
I'm going to repeat this question I asked: "If I take a MS 1937-D 5c and dip it in acid for a few seconds (just enough to turn it "matte" IT IS NOT a G to F coin. The OP's coin was never worn down that much. AU's have a lot of "meat."
Two members: @ArizonaRareCoins, and @MsMorrisine have chosen to "click the disagree icon" on one of my posts without answering the question above - possibly because the obviously correct answer from a Beginning Grading 101class would shred their opinions.
I thought CU was a forum to learn, discuss, and post opinions in agreement or not. I only have respect for posters who can voice an opinion and explain their reason behind it. Otherwise, I'll consider a post as ramblings from the uninformed. I'm waiting for an answer but I'm not holding my breath. LOL
I seriously question if you should be involved with Numismatics. Apparently, you don't seen to comprehend the grading process. WEAR is the ONLY determinant in the numeric grading process. When you put a coin in acid, you are REMOVING metal/WEARING a coin. The amount of the surfaces that is eaten away by acid will determine what grade the coin will receive. I did NOT come here to argue/debate this with you. I tried to TEACH you about the grading process, but you refused to accept and continue to argue the fact. This is not a hard concept to understand. A weakly struck coin, that never circulated, with what appears to have XF details, is still Mint State. A coins grade is determined by wear and it's grade can not be increased by acid etching, reengraving, cleaning nor any other method.
A fool is a man that attempts to teach those that are unwilling to learn.
Well, even if the technical "grade" is determined by wear alone (btw, it's not, that's an oversimplification), the VALUE is determined soley by the buyer's opinion of the NET grade, which takes a lot more into account than wear, as evidenced by monster toned gem coins which are Worth more than MS70 grad3d white coins.
@Baley said: "Acid-dated nickels? I'd start at net- poor1, and try to conservatively award another point or two. ( or deduct from one and net 0.5 or something, depending..."
That is fine for the dateless coins but what about the VF coins above that were acid etched to make a point. I hope you would not start at Poor on those...
@Baley said: "Well, even if the technical "grade" is determined by wear alone (btw, it's not, that's an oversimplification),..."
I've been in several grading seminars with the numismatist who developed the "Technical Grading System." Your statement shows that you do not understand what it is. BTW, when ANACS moved to CO, they bastardized that system as the new guys had no clue either. What they claimed was technical grading WAS NOT and that came from the horse's mouth teaching the seminars. Nevertheless, the damage is done and everyone thinks they know what it is.
@Baley said: "...the VALUE is determined soley by the buyer's opinion of the NET grade, which takes a lot more into account than wear, as evidenced by monster toned gem coins which are Worth more than MS70 grad3d white coins."
Technical grading did not put a value on coins. It was not concerned with strike or eye appeal either. That's one reason it would never work in the coin market. You are describing net, detail, and commercial grading in your statement about value.
Whole coin has been acid treated- no grade, just 'Genuine- Acid Treated'
Only the date (or other small area)- details grade, 'Acid Treated'.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@Baley asked a simple question with a very simple answer: "Alright, if "technical grading" is not useful in determining value, then what IS it useful for?"
I'm not going to have time to answer this as fully as I learned but I'll give it a try...
"Technical Grading" was developed to describe a coin's condition of preservation. It had nothing to do with value because the people who used it were not coin dealers. At the time it was developed, the definition of UNc was "NO TRACE OF WEAR." Therefore, "Technical" grading was very strict. Since only the condition of the coin from the time it left the dies was important, a flatly struck, blotchy toned coin still having full mint luster and virtually no marks was graded Choice Unc (MS-65 back then) as made! There are two important benefits of grading a coin this way.
The grade would never change over the decades. As long as the coin stayed in the same condition. It was excellent for what it was designed to do - identify a coin's condition of preservation - forever as long as it remained the same. The coin in the paragraph above would appear in the internal records with its weight, photo of both sides, and the description Choice Unc,, flat strike, spotted toning. The market would not "value" this "Choice Unc" the same as a brilliant, fully struck, coin with virtually no marks. That is why Technical grading NEVER worked for the market. Most of the coins being sold as Uncirculated were not.
BTY, in the 1970's and into the 1980's, you could not find a true Technical Unc "raw" $2 1/2 or $5 Indian at a small coin show until PCGS came into being. In 1986 the true Unc Indians came out of the woodwork and into PCGS slabs. That is not the case at any TPGS today as cleaned, unoriginal coins, and sliders abound in the low grade slabs. It's what the "market" demands!
The bastardized system used by ANACS , the true technical system used at the first grading service INSAB, and the more commercial system used by NCi did not work. Dealers got fed up and PCGS was born. With the commercial standards of today, coins that were formerly graded AU are now graded Unc. Each time a coin is seen today the grader needs to decide (based on the coin type, rarity, market conditions, etc) is it AU or Unc. How much loss of luster on the high points and friction can I allow. Commercial grading is a wishy-washy system.
"True" technical grading is the best and fastest way to teach a person to grade coins. Commercial grading is very complicated. You need to weigh the eye appeal, rarity, condition of preservation, and value of a coin. It takes concentrated effort and experience and most never get there on par with people like Hall, Halperin, etc. Technical grading eliminates all the variables in the beginning and is very strict. No friction allowed on an Unc. Students learn to determine each part of the grading question separately like original mint luster. First judge the wear if any. Then the strike. Then the location and severity of marks then the eye appeal. Well, well that's what we all do isn't it. LOL. The major benefit of learning this way is the student knows what he is looking at and can then make a more informed choice. Example: I'll by this hairlined, slider, with a weak strike being sold as MS-63.
@cmerlo1 said: "Whole coin has been acid treated- no grade, just 'Genuine- Acid Treated'
Only the date (or other small area)- details grade, 'Acid Treated'."
This is why we all should learn to grade coins technically. We would be able to grade all coins, even coins with altered surfaces easily. I guess that is why none of the posters in this thread work as professional graders at a TPGS. They cannot hack grading problem coins! LOL!
I know from long experience that there is a collector for everything out there... but that said, paying a four digit price for a dateless example of a variety where the entire attraction and appeal of the coin lies with... an ERROR IN THE DATE... just seems crazy.
Wow!! What a quagmire this thread has become. Getting a bit fatigued reading all of the posts. Most acid treated coins I have seen have been slabbed po-01, fa-02, ag-03 and sometimes g-04. and then stated acid treated or acid etched, or my favorite, acid wretched! Thats enough!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX said: "Most acid treated coins I have seen have been slabbed po-01, fa-02, ag-03 and sometimes g-04. and then stated acid treated or acid etched, or my favorite, acid wretched! Thats enough!
MOST ACID COINS ALL OF US HAVE SEEN ARE THAT WAY!
Now keep an open mind and try to expand your horizons. @basetsb posted some VF's that he etched...and back we go to the high grade coin in the OP.
I'm thinking of destroying a Jefferson nickel so you can learn what an AU-55 acid etched nickel looks like. Coin grading has NOTHING to do with how we feel (except a cranky grader may be "off" for the day) about the coins we grade. They are what they are within a small window of subjectivity. Show me a coin - any coin - and I'll describe it with a grade -straight or details. The professionals at the TPGS do that day in and day out.
@Insider2 said: @Baley asked a simple question with a very simple answer: "Alright, if "technical grading" is not useful in determining value, then what IS it useful for?"
I'm not going to have time to answer this as fully as I learned but I'll give it a try...
"Technical Grading" was developed to describe a coin's condition of preservation. It had nothing to do with value because the people who used it were not coin dealers. At the time it was developed, the definition of UNc was "NO TRACE OF WEAR." Therefore, "Technical" grading was very strict. Since only the condition of the coin from the time it left the dies was important, a flatly struck, blotchy toned coin still having full mint luster and virtually no marks was graded Choice Unc (MS-65 back then) as made! There are two important benefits of grading a coin this way.
The grade would never change over the decades. As long as the coin stayed in the same condition. It was excellent for what it was designed to do - identify a coin's condition of preservation - forever as long as it remained the same. The coin in the paragraph above would appear in the internal records with its weight, photo of both sides, and the description Choice Unc,, flat strike, spotted toning. The market would not "value" this "Choice Unc" the same as a brilliant, fully struck, coin with virtually no marks. That is why Technical grading NEVER worked for the market. Most of the coins being sold as Uncirculated were not.
BTY, in the 1970's and into the 1980's, you could not find a true Technical Unc "raw" $2 1/2 or $5 Indian at a small coin show until PCGS came into being. In 1986 the true Unc Indians came out of the woodwork and into PCGS slabs. That is not the case at any TPGS today as cleaned, unoriginal coins, and sliders abound in the low grade slabs. It's what the "market" demands!
The bastardized system used by ANACS , the true technical system used at the first grading service INSAB, and the more commercial system used by NCi did not work. Dealers got fed up and PCGS was born. With the commercial standards of today, coins that were formerly graded AU are now graded Unc. Each time a coin is seen today the grader needs to decide (based on the coin type, rarity, market conditions, etc) is it AU or Unc. How much loss of luster on the high points and friction can I allow. Commercial grading is a wishy-washy system.
"True" technical grading is the best and fastest way to teach a person to grade coins. Commercial grading is very complicated. You need to weigh the eye appeal, rarity, condition of preservation, and value of a coin. It takes concentrated effort and experience and most never get there on par with people like Hall, Halperin, etc. Technical grading eliminates all the variables in the beginning and is very strict. No friction allowed on an Unc. Students learn to determine each part of the grading question separately like original mint luster. First judge the wear if any. Then the strike. Then the location and severity of marks then the eye appeal. Well, well that's what we all do isn't it. LOL. The major benefit of learning this way is the student knows what he is looking at and can then make a more informed choice. Example: I'll by this hairlined, slider, with a weak strike being sold as MS-63.
@cmerlo1 said: "Whole coin has been acid treated- no grade, just 'Genuine- Acid Treated'
Only the date (or other small area)- details grade, 'Acid Treated'."
This is why we all should learn to grade coins technically. We would be able to grade all coins, even coins with altered surfaces easily. I guess that is why none of the posters in this thread work as professional graders at a TPGS. They cannot hack grading problem coins! LOL!
Yes, LOL, in fact, LMFAO, at what you've written. You obviously have it all figured out, and think this is, what, an AU coin, scratch and all ? congratulations!
edited to add: I'll tell you, I can "hack" a net grade the heck out of problem [early US] coins and have many of them in my collection, more than most collectors on here, and I'll tell you further, I've never, ever, paid anywhere near what you would consider the "technical" grade for them. They're damaged coins, pure and simple, and need to be net graded way down.
I can call them "technically" anything I want, I can call them Gems, or Beauties, or give them a number like one million.
but I would be all alone in that assessment when speaking about the coin in any real-world terms, except to a sucker.
The minute............the second.........you dip it..........you ALTER it. If you get away with it, fine. I am just stating the TECHNICAL aspects.
I know there are approved ways to do these things.
If no one catches you, that's fine. If you don't damage the coin...........that's fine too. Stating what you did when you sell the coin is great. Matter of fact that's the honorable thing to do.
You can then sell it with a free mind.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
right now the following acid “wretched” (etched) 1918/7-d overdate is for sale on da flea (ebay)
notice the full bold details and strong mint lustre! Being offered at a starting bid of $9.99 and a buy-it-now
of only $700.00. All kidding acid I am going to track this one and report back here. It is a decent restoration done
only on the date area. Anyone who says this would be better slabbed so you can stare at the lil or die break on the obverse
or admire the mintmark position on the reverse with no restored date is nutso IMO! Also the seller has a reserve price
which I will try to get from him/her
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I think that when you see what $$$ the above restored date overdate brings you will see why many buff collectors spend a little time with their bottle of inc-d-date and a pile of dateless buffs!!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@Baley said: "Yes, LOL, in fact, LMFAO, at what you've written. You obviously have it all figured out, and think this is, what, an AU coin, scratch and all ? congratulations! "
Yes, I do...and it has taken decades of study + multiple seminars. Furthermore @Baley, I'm not the only one who thinks the coin is AU (I don't see the scratch), The professionals at ICG with more experience than 95% of the posters in this thread graded the coin AU, acid etched. Additionally, I'll bet if the OP coin would have been in a PCGS slab graded the same way, there would not have been a peep out of you experts that are LYA's off.
@Baley said: "I'll tell you, I can "hack" a net grade the heck out of problem [early US] coins and have many of them in my collection, more than most collectors on here, and I'll tell you further, I've never, ever, paid anywhere near what you would consider the "technical" grade for them. They're damaged coins, pure and simple, and need to be net graded way down."
The VALUE of a "details" coin has absolutely nothing to do with its grade! Posters keep bringing this "smoke screen" up to cloud the issue and support their belief that the coin is damaged and virtually worthless. Please stop adding confusion to what is a very simple grading determination!
We ALL AGREE on this point.
@Baley said: "I can call them "technically" anything I want, I can call them Gems, or Beauties, or give them a number like one million; but I would be all alone in that assessment when speaking about the coin in any real-world terms, except to a sucker."
I think you may have finally caught on. This is why we all should learn to grade coins technically. We would be able to grade all coins, even coins with altered surfaces easily. I guess that is why none of the posters in this thread work as professional graders at a TPGS. They cannot hack grading problem coins! LOL!
@TwoSides2aCoin said: "Oil and vinegar is good on lettuce, but let us reconsider its use on coins."
These two products are on the shelves of many DIY amateur conservators. Some of these folks do a decent job.
Here is an example of a coin which was treated more than once, the first treatment looks like a complete nic-a-date bath
followed by no rinse or a bad rinse thus turning the coin an ugly dark tone. Then to make matters worse the date area was treated again. what an ugly restoration. but anacs was happy to slab it and put “ACID TREATED” on the label insert
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I forgot to ask so I will now DOES VINEGAR ALONE RESTORE THE DETAILS/DATE ON A BUFFALO NICKEL? I think someone may have said that and it takes a week or two 2 do the job that nic a date does.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It does bring out all the details, giving the appearance a more even look I suppose. I'm sure there's a balance between length of time left in vinegar on bringing out the details before the inverse occurs. I haven't experimented enough with this- I just tried it out on 4-5 dateless nickel's to see what would happen.
I will add, it does not increase the grade. If anything, it detracts from the grade. I didn't adjust the color on this but in hand it's a dull grey, that appears as if lightly sandblasted. Has a coarse appearance. The only thing salvaged is the date, and some details. IMO- The nickel started out as Fair-AG, and is now a acid etched 1913 var. 2 "genuine."
BTW, ugly acid dipped or stained nickel coins can be "restored" to a more pleasing nickel color. It does not change the grade or surface - just the color of the surface. I had an ex-NCS employee "fix" one of mine. He said he was not in a position to tell any of their methods as they all signed a confidentiality agreement when hired.
That "bright" coin in the OP should have been "fixed."
PS there is a thread about coins and vinegar on some forum right now.
Ok, great, we do understand each other, and can drop the matter.
It took you all those years and classes to understand that the technical grade of a coin like this is "VF details, holed", and acknowledge that that description is just the beginning of the more complete description that would help determine value.
I thought this concept was axiomatic, and it took me a minute to realize that you thought it was revolutionary.
@Baley said:"Ok, great, we do understand each other, and can drop the matter..."
Actually, I don't think we do; but I'll stop posting here once you do. LOL. Actually, I'll bet members who have less than 4 stars and 19,000 posts are learning a few things from you. Me too as I don't even know what axiomatic means! They don't teach that in grading and authentication seminars.
"It took you all those years and classes to understand that the technical grade of a coin like this is "VF details, holed", ..."
Actually no. You see, in the early 1970's, I was lucky to be in the first seminar where "true" technical grading was taught. As I explained earlier in this thread, this method of grading can be picked-up fairly quickly by beginners with a "good eye" because a coin's value is not even considered or mentioned. Eye-appeal is not either until the nuances of strike, originality, and the effect of marks is learned. As a result, I learned to sharpen my grading skills in a very short time.
I mentioned years of study and classes because my learning has NEVER STOPPED. I still learn something new about attribution, conservation, grading and authentication on a weekly basis. Nevertheless, I can tell by your posts, for instance, that I'll never reach the level of understanding of the experts I post with on CU. Sorry, I needed to get off tract to answer your misconception about "years and classes."
To be more specific, the instructors teaching the various grading classes (who must not be as expert a grader) would prefer we assign a technical grade of VF details, holed, cleaned, ED, and rim dings to the coin you were nice enough to provide. I find specific images speed up the learning process when discussing grading - don't you? But that is done in a teaching exercise where we learned to see every thing on a coin (both its defects and attributes) and then possibly back off on the defects that are not serious enough and may be expected/tolerated on very old coins.
"...and acknowledge that that description is just the beginning of the more complete description that would help determine value..."
We'll need to part ways on this also. What exactly would be a "more complete" description? The one I posted above listing all the coin's defects? You see, a majority of our modern "details" grades from major TPGS are actually the old, maligned, "technical" system that never worked to establish a coin's value! That coin's value is going to be what some dealer and collector agree on. Nothing more and nothing less. I'll bet most of us wouldn't give it a second look (unless rare var.) until it was priced below "dirt cheap" or free.
I hope I've given you a little insight into what "true" technical grading was in the 1970's before ANA in CO got a hold of it. Best of luck to you!
PS I almost forgot, @Baley said: "I thought this concept was axiomatic, and it took me a minute to realize that you thought it was revolutionary."
Each of us live in a certain "box" of time. We know little about the time out of our place in it unless we are students of history - in this case numismatic history. Ever hear of the world famous american numismatist Sir Waldo Nemo Heathwick? I didn't think so - I just made that up to make a point which is this: FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO probably before you were (in the box) a professional numismatist (?) "Technical Grading" was A BRAND-NEW, REVOLUTIONARY concept!
Now, I shall look up that axieo-something word you used.
Whew, lots of good points made on this thread about damaged coins.
The acid on a buff brings up a missing date and a full horn. That Does Not mean it can be graded like a non damaged coin.
I think its pretty simple really,
There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
@gyocomgd said:
There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
yes nice coins have shown up in ICG holders just as they have in SEGS and ANACS holders in addition to the big two, but to
my knowledge ICG is the only grading service that gives these types of high detail grades for acid treated coins.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@gyocomgd said:
There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
yes nice coins have shown up in ICG holders just as they have in SEGS and ANACS holders in addition to the big two, but to
my knowledge ICG is the only grading service that gives these types of high detail grades for acid treated coins.
Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders.
@gyocomgd said:
There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
yes nice coins have shown up in ICG holders just as they have in SEGS and ANACS holders in addition to the big two, but to
my knowledge ICG is the only grading service that gives these types of high detail grades for acid treated coins.
Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders.
But pray tell me how ICG got the ability to sell their coins via eBay? Very shortly after they came into existence they were in the “group of four” coin grading services, the top two of which we know and the lower level being anacs and icg”. IMO they had not been around long enough but they were instantly tagged as legit. Never could figure that one out. Is their anything they try to do to differentiate themselves from the big two. If I had a nice group of restored date buffs I wanted to get slabbed (like 1918/7-d and 1916/1916 and 1913s type 2) maybe I would use them based upon what I have seen in their holders. Most slobbers will call these acid treated coins “AG details, acid treated” and not put the so-called post-acid treated date on their holders. But as far as these being worthless many sell for significant premiums from what I see on eBay.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@boyernumismatics said: "But pray tell me how ICG got the ability to sell their coins via eBay? Very shortly after they came into existence they were in the “group of four” coin grading services, the top two of which we know and the lower level being anacs and icg”. IMO they had not been around long enough but they were instantly tagged as legit. Never could figure that one out. "
OMG, please stop. My eyes are rolling and I'm spitting my coffee all over the computer!
It's really very simple. ANY professional authenticator/grader who has EVER worked for ICG has more numismatic knowledge than you WILL EVER have. That's why they are in the "four." Easy see...LOL.
Comments
You're looking at this entire issue completely backwards, and it honestly hurts to the point where I will discontinue reading future responses on this thread. Do you want me to go take an better conditioned buffalo nickel and acid date it; it will not look like the coin in the ICG holder.
You've driven me to do this legitimate scientific trial of demonstrating how putting acid on the coin does not magically make it a higher grade than it was when the Ferric-Chloride was introduced to the nickel alloy (the coin).
For the demonstration, I have picked out of my junk pile three (3) buffalo nickels dated/minted/graded as approximately follows: 1936 P (VF20), 1937 P (VF25), 1937 D (VF25). Here is the process.
I will now place the first coin, a 1936 P VF20 Buffalo Nickel, onto the paper, absorbent surface. Cover entire coin in Ferric-Chloride to replicate appearance of coin in question (OP coin in ICG slab). Let Ferric-Sulfide sit on coin for 1 minute. Dab dry the side affected by Ferric-Sulfide and flip over. Repeat the trial for other side and other two coins, then rinse in water.
Before and after photos:
Now, are these coins still VF or are they now magically AU? The whole debate is ridiculous, and Acid treated coins should not be given a grade, or any sort of certification, case CLOSED...
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
I should've gotten those coins slabbed the whole time...I just KNEW they were MS under all that wear!!
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
None of us should like destroying coins. Unfortunately, at least in the old days - decades ago, a majority of the folks putting acid on nickels were not numismatists! In the case of the 1916/16 and many 18/17-D coins they can be ID w/o acid. That is not the case with other scarce mint marked nickels. I suppose that's why folks still etch them. BTW, a good "doctor" can make many of these acid coins look normal enough. The one above that Buffnixx has is a good candidate.
Anyone wish to take a stab at "detail" grading the coin above my post?
Tom-they're waiting for a bidiot to pay $3999 for a dateless 16/16. That's the price of a Good with at least a partial date. But there's no shortage of bidiots out there.
No, what your left with is junk.
That's my opinion.
I think, I hope, I've made my point.
Carry on
The Acid treatment should only be used to detect the original date. Not to upgrade!
Now on acid treating. Suppose you found an old beat up "V" Nickel in your grandmother's basement that is 100 yrs. old.
but you cannot detect what date that V Nickel is, wouldn't you try EVERYTHING to see if it's that Baby of all babies? the 1913 V Nickel!!! I think you would.
I know your going to say, let's not compare Apples to Oranges, right? LOL
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.That's just my point. I like original and if it was left to me by my loving grandmother I sure as hell am not going to destroy it with acid.
Of course this is just my opinion. But I'll tell you this! In all due respect I will never change my mind. I also think it's bad for the hobby as I'm sure some rookie collector will get duped outta their money with these.
Further more, I will not respond to this thread anymore and maybe it'll go away.
I'm more than sure I've made my point.
Happy hunting, Joe
I took some dateless buffalo nickels, about a year ago, and soaked them in vinegar for about 3 weeks to see what would happen. They were Fair-AG condition when I dropped them in, and when I pulled them out I could make out the dates. I wouldn't assign any details grade to these- as they were Fair-AG to begin with....AU details? Shoot, if that's the case, everyone would be dropping dateless buffaloes in for "AU details"...not a hard thing to do. Especially, if you could find someone to give you VG-Fine retail price on a AU details piece! No grade should be assigned- misleading, and potentially damaging to the buyer...
Keith Richards is heavily acid treated and worth a good chunk of money. anything else is a cull.
I might add, and one could tell that he's been "Acid Treated"!
Ala' when Buff's are
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.@basetsb said: "[Insider] You're looking at this entire issue completely backwards, and it honestly hurts to the point where I will discontinue reading future responses on this thread. Do you want me to go take an better conditioned buffalo nickel and acid date it; it will not look like the coin in the ICG holder.
You've driven me to do this legitimate scientific trial of demonstrating how putting acid on the coin does not magically make it a higher grade than it was when the Ferric-Chloride was introduced to the nickel alloy (the coin).
For the demonstration, I have picked out of my junk pile three (3) buffalo nickels dated/minted/graded as approximately follows: 1936 P (VF20), 1937 P (VF25), 1937 D (VF25). Here is the process.
I will now place the first coin, a 1936 P VF20 Buffalo Nickel, onto the paper, absorbent surface. Cover entire coin in Ferric-Chloride to replicate appearance of coin in question (OP coin in ICG slab). Let Ferric-Sulfide sit on coin for 1 minute. Dab dry the side affected by Ferric-Sulfide and flip over. Repeat the trial for other side and other two coins, then rinse in water.
Now, are these coins still VF or are they now magically AU? The whole debate is ridiculous, and Acid treated coins should not be given a grade, or any sort of certification, case CLOSED..."
Well, at least one numismatist does not mind destroying coins. LOL. Anyway, destroying a coin as an educational experiment is fine w/me. Thanks! I've destroyed a few also in my time. Now to answer your question. The coins you etched are the same grade to me - VF. Only now they are accurately graded as VF-(whatever as I need to see the actual coins for a #) "Acid Etched."
No one raised the grade of the ICG nickel in the OP. The graders there assigned a grade of AU for the amount of design detail visible. It's called grading a coin. We can all disagree with the grade they assigned but the expert here who graded it G to F needs to take a grading class as he has no clue! I recommend the ANA Summer Seminar as I have been in several grading and authentication classes there over the years. I kept going back because I'm stupid and do not deserve to have an opinion regarding numismatics.
Furthermore, you cannot raise the grade of a nickel with acid except that you can raise its APPARENT GRADE as soon as its date pops out when it was not on the original low grade piece. And you certainly can raise the value and collectability of a dateless, mint marked slug with a drop of acid. case CLOSED!
@crazyhounddog said: "I like original and if it was left to me by my loving grandmother I sure as hell am not going to destroy it with acid. Of course this is just my opinion. But I'll tell you this! In all due respect I will never change my mind. I also think it's bad for the hobby as I'm sure some rookie collector will get duped outta their money with these. Further more, I will not respond to this thread anymore and maybe it'll go away. I'm more than sure I've made my point."
Must be nice to afford the original coins you collect. I'm just a "junk box" collector. Thankfully, the TPGS cater to the rest of us and slab our problem coins. Hope you hang around...Bye.
I once found a dateless 16/16 in a bag of buffalos. I thought about getting it restored but left it untouched and had it slabbed by SEGS who rated it Fair 2. Sold it on ebay for about $335. I still search dateless buffs and seeing what the restored dates go for, I don't think I'd do the same thing again. The good party of the story is the money I made helped me buy one with a date.
Some of the people I know warned me about coin forums. They don't participate now. I see why. You can waste a lot of time dealing with off-track, misinformation that works into a thread when some "Ex-Pert" claims an AU Details coin looks like it is a G to F!
Perhaps you should look at the coin in the OP before posting an opinion. A dateless nickel is not an AU! A TPGS would not grade it that way because ALL THE MAJOR TPGS back up their grading and authentication opinion with cash, replacement coins, free submissions, or a combination of these. I know they all have.
You guys have a beef with the grading services. Write them and say you don't like/will not buy any coins in their details slabs. Tell them to stop it right now as the coins are junk! LOL!
P.S. Vinegar is a good "trick." I saw some nickels restored this way on another forum. The etch is not as severe.
I can see valid points to all sides of this discussion..................perhaps that is one of my faults
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I don't think you took the time to read my post before responding on what you already intended to say- make sense? It's cool- you have a lot on your chest, let it out, I'm not here as an "ex-pert" as you claim, didn't say I was....
Re-read my post and I think you'll get a different clue...as clearly I didn't post what you surmise, and projected.
@PocketArt Your post was perfectly fine with a great tip about vinegar. In a previous post - before you got on this thread, a dealer member claimed the coin in the OP graded AU details by ICG was a G to F. Of course it is not.
He is the "expert" as he buys and sells coins.
Your post picked up on his statement. Only one person here believes that. Others say the coins are junk. There is nothing incorrect about their personal opinion. But saying a coin with the details of an XF/AU is G to F...
Acid-dated nickels?
I'd start at net- poor1, and try to conservatively award another point or two. ( or deduct from one and net 0.5 or something, depending...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Gotcha, sorry for confusion, and thanks for clarity.
Here is mine, I obtained it 15 years ago and it was priced at net G4.
Well, even if the technical "grade" is determined by wear alone (btw, it's not, that's an oversimplification), the VALUE is determined soley by the buyer's opinion of the NET grade, which takes a lot more into account than wear, as evidenced by monster toned gem coins which are Worth more than MS70 grad3d white coins.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said: "Acid-dated nickels? I'd start at net- poor1, and try to conservatively award another point or two. ( or deduct from one and net 0.5 or something, depending..."
That is fine for the dateless coins but what about the VF coins above that were acid etched to make a point. I hope you would not start at Poor on those...
@Baley said: "Well, even if the technical "grade" is determined by wear alone (btw, it's not, that's an oversimplification),..."
I've been in several grading seminars with the numismatist who developed the "Technical Grading System." Your statement shows that you do not understand what it is. BTW, when ANACS moved to CO, they bastardized that system as the new guys had no clue either. What they claimed was technical grading WAS NOT and that came from the horse's mouth teaching the seminars. Nevertheless, the damage is done and everyone thinks they know what it is.
@Baley said: "...the VALUE is determined soley by the buyer's opinion of the NET grade, which takes a lot more into account than wear, as evidenced by monster toned gem coins which are Worth more than MS70 grad3d white coins."
Technical grading did not put a value on coins. It was not concerned with strike or eye appeal either. That's one reason it would never work in the coin market. You are describing net, detail, and commercial grading in your statement about value.
Alright, if "technical grading" is not useful in determining value, then what IS it useful for?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Whole coin has been acid treated- no grade, just 'Genuine- Acid Treated'
Only the date (or other small area)- details grade, 'Acid Treated'.
@Baley asked a simple question with a very simple answer: "Alright, if "technical grading" is not useful in determining value, then what IS it useful for?"
I'm not going to have time to answer this as fully as I learned but I'll give it a try...
"Technical Grading" was developed to describe a coin's condition of preservation. It had nothing to do with value because the people who used it were not coin dealers. At the time it was developed, the definition of UNc was "NO TRACE OF WEAR." Therefore, "Technical" grading was very strict. Since only the condition of the coin from the time it left the dies was important, a flatly struck, blotchy toned coin still having full mint luster and virtually no marks was graded Choice Unc (MS-65 back then) as made! There are two important benefits of grading a coin this way.
The grade would never change over the decades. As long as the coin stayed in the same condition. It was excellent for what it was designed to do - identify a coin's condition of preservation - forever as long as it remained the same. The coin in the paragraph above would appear in the internal records with its weight, photo of both sides, and the description Choice Unc,, flat strike, spotted toning. The market would not "value" this "Choice Unc" the same as a brilliant, fully struck, coin with virtually no marks. That is why Technical grading NEVER worked for the market. Most of the coins being sold as Uncirculated were not.
BTY, in the 1970's and into the 1980's, you could not find a true Technical Unc "raw" $2 1/2 or $5 Indian at a small coin show until PCGS came into being. In 1986 the true Unc Indians came out of the woodwork and into PCGS slabs. That is not the case at any TPGS today as cleaned, unoriginal coins, and sliders abound in the low grade slabs. It's what the "market" demands!
The bastardized system used by ANACS , the true technical system used at the first grading service INSAB, and the more commercial system used by NCi did not work. Dealers got fed up and PCGS was born. With the commercial standards of today, coins that were formerly graded AU are now graded Unc. Each time a coin is seen today the grader needs to decide (based on the coin type, rarity, market conditions, etc) is it AU or Unc. How much loss of luster on the high points and friction can I allow. Commercial grading is a wishy-washy system.
"True" technical grading is the best and fastest way to teach a person to grade coins. Commercial grading is very complicated. You need to weigh the eye appeal, rarity, condition of preservation, and value of a coin. It takes concentrated effort and experience and most never get there on par with people like Hall, Halperin, etc. Technical grading eliminates all the variables in the beginning and is very strict. No friction allowed on an Unc. Students learn to determine each part of the grading question separately like original mint luster. First judge the wear if any. Then the strike. Then the location and severity of marks then the eye appeal. Well, well that's what we all do isn't it. LOL. The major benefit of learning this way is the student knows what he is looking at and can then make a more informed choice. Example: I'll by this hairlined, slider, with a weak strike being sold as MS-63.
@cmerlo1 said: "Whole coin has been acid treated- no grade, just 'Genuine- Acid Treated'
Only the date (or other small area)- details grade, 'Acid Treated'."
This is why we all should learn to grade coins technically. We would be able to grade all coins, even coins with altered surfaces easily. I guess that is why none of the posters in this thread work as professional graders at a TPGS. They cannot hack grading problem coins! LOL!
I know from long experience that there is a collector for everything out there... but that said, paying a four digit price for a dateless example of a variety where the entire attraction and appeal of the coin lies with... an ERROR IN THE DATE... just seems crazy.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
It is damaged, that's all. No meaningful "grade."
if that coin were auctioned, would it sell for acid treated AU money or acid treated low end money, say Fair to sub Fair?
Wow!! What a quagmire this thread has become. Getting a bit fatigued reading all of the posts. Most acid treated coins I have seen have been slabbed po-01, fa-02, ag-03 and sometimes g-04. and then stated acid treated or acid etched, or my favorite, acid wretched! Thats enough!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Acid Wretched is still my favorite notation.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX said: "Most acid treated coins I have seen have been slabbed po-01, fa-02, ag-03 and sometimes g-04. and then stated acid treated or acid etched, or my favorite, acid wretched! Thats enough!
MOST ACID COINS ALL OF US HAVE SEEN ARE THAT WAY!
Now keep an open mind and try to expand your horizons. @basetsb posted some VF's that he etched...and back we go to the high grade coin in the OP.
I'm thinking of destroying a Jefferson nickel so you can learn what an AU-55 acid etched nickel looks like. Coin grading has NOTHING to do with how we feel (except a cranky grader may be "off" for the day) about the coins we grade. They are what they are within a small window of subjectivity. Show me a coin - any coin - and I'll describe it with a grade -straight or details. The professionals at the TPGS do that day in and day out.
Yes, LOL, in fact, LMFAO, at what you've written. You obviously have it all figured out, and think this is, what, an AU coin, scratch and all ? congratulations!
edited to add: I'll tell you, I can "hack" a net grade the heck out of problem [early US] coins and have many of them in my collection, more than most collectors on here, and I'll tell you further, I've never, ever, paid anywhere near what you would consider the "technical" grade for them. They're damaged coins, pure and simple, and need to be net graded way down.
I can call them "technically" anything I want, I can call them Gems, or Beauties, or give them a number like one million.
but I would be all alone in that assessment when speaking about the coin in any real-world terms, except to a sucker.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The minute............the second.........you dip it..........you ALTER it. If you get away with it, fine. I am just stating the TECHNICAL aspects.
I know there are approved ways to do these things.
If no one catches you, that's fine. If you don't damage the coin...........that's fine too. Stating what you did when you sell the coin is great. Matter of fact that's the honorable thing to do.
You can then sell it with a free mind.
Pete
right now the following acid “wretched” (etched) 1918/7-d overdate is for sale on da flea (ebay)
notice the full bold details and strong mint lustre! Being offered at a starting bid of $9.99 and a buy-it-now
of only $700.00. All kidding acid I am going to track this one and report back here. It is a decent restoration done
only on the date area. Anyone who says this would be better slabbed so you can stare at the lil or die break on the obverse
or admire the mintmark position on the reverse with no restored date is nutso IMO! Also the seller has a reserve price
which I will try to get from him/her
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I think that when you see what $$$ the above restored date overdate brings you will see why many buff collectors spend a little time with their bottle of inc-d-date and a pile of dateless buffs!!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Oil and vinegar is good on lettuce, but let us reconsider its use on coins.
@Baley said: "Yes, LOL, in fact, LMFAO, at what you've written. You obviously have it all figured out, and think this is, what, an AU coin, scratch and all ? congratulations! "
Yes, I do...and it has taken decades of study + multiple seminars. Furthermore @Baley, I'm not the only one who thinks the coin is AU (I don't see the scratch), The professionals at ICG with more experience than 95% of the posters in this thread graded the coin AU, acid etched. Additionally, I'll bet if the OP coin would have been in a PCGS slab graded the same way, there would not have been a peep out of you experts that are LYA's off.
@Baley said: "I'll tell you, I can "hack" a net grade the heck out of problem [early US] coins and have many of them in my collection, more than most collectors on here, and I'll tell you further, I've never, ever, paid anywhere near what you would consider the "technical" grade for them. They're damaged coins, pure and simple, and need to be net graded way down."
The VALUE of a "details" coin has absolutely nothing to do with its grade! Posters keep bringing this "smoke screen" up to cloud the issue and support their belief that the coin is damaged and virtually worthless. Please stop adding confusion to what is a very simple grading determination!
We ALL AGREE on this point.
@Baley said: "I can call them "technically" anything I want, I can call them Gems, or Beauties, or give them a number like one million; but I would be all alone in that assessment when speaking about the coin in any real-world terms, except to a sucker."
I think you may have finally caught on. This is why we all should learn to grade coins technically. We would be able to grade all coins, even coins with altered surfaces easily. I guess that is why none of the posters in this thread work as professional graders at a TPGS. They cannot hack grading problem coins! LOL!
@TwoSides2aCoin said: "Oil and vinegar is good on lettuce, but let us reconsider its use on coins."
These two products are on the shelves of many DIY amateur conservators. Some of these folks do a decent job.
Here is an example of a coin which was treated more than once, the first treatment looks like a complete nic-a-date bath
followed by no rinse or a bad rinse thus turning the coin an ugly dark tone. Then to make matters worse the date area was treated again. what an ugly restoration. but anacs was happy to slab it and put “ACID TREATED” on the label insert
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I forgot to ask so I will now DOES VINEGAR ALONE RESTORE THE DETAILS/DATE ON A BUFFALO NICKEL? I think someone may have said that and it takes a week or two 2 do the job that nic a date does.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It does bring out all the details, giving the appearance a more even look I suppose. I'm sure there's a balance between length of time left in vinegar on bringing out the details before the inverse occurs. I haven't experimented enough with this- I just tried it out on 4-5 dateless nickel's to see what would happen.
I will add, it does not increase the grade. If anything, it detracts from the grade. I didn't adjust the color on this but in hand it's a dull grey, that appears as if lightly sandblasted. Has a coarse appearance. The only thing salvaged is the date, and some details. IMO- The nickel started out as Fair-AG, and is now a acid etched 1913 var. 2 "genuine."
I think Vinegar is acidic.
BTW, ugly acid dipped or stained nickel coins can be "restored" to a more pleasing nickel color. It does not change the grade or surface - just the color of the surface. I had an ex-NCS employee "fix" one of mine. He said he was not in a position to tell any of their methods as they all signed a confidentiality agreement when hired.
That "bright" coin in the OP should have been "fixed."
PS there is a thread about coins and vinegar on some forum right now.
Ok, great, we do understand each other, and can drop the matter.
It took you all those years and classes to understand that the technical grade of a coin like this is "VF details, holed", and acknowledge that that description is just the beginning of the more complete description that would help determine value.
I thought this concept was axiomatic, and it took me a minute to realize that you thought it was revolutionary.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said:"Ok, great, we do understand each other, and can drop the matter..."
Actually, I don't think we do; but I'll stop posting here once you do. LOL. Actually, I'll bet members who have less than 4 stars and 19,000 posts are learning a few things from you. Me too as I don't even know what axiomatic means! They don't teach that in grading and authentication seminars.
"It took you all those years and classes to understand that the technical grade of a coin like this is "VF details, holed", ..."
Actually no. You see, in the early 1970's, I was lucky to be in the first seminar where "true" technical grading was taught. As I explained earlier in this thread, this method of grading can be picked-up fairly quickly by beginners with a "good eye" because a coin's value is not even considered or mentioned. Eye-appeal is not either until the nuances of strike, originality, and the effect of marks is learned. As a result, I learned to sharpen my grading skills in a very short time.
I mentioned years of study and classes because my learning has NEVER STOPPED. I still learn something new about attribution, conservation, grading and authentication on a weekly basis. Nevertheless, I can tell by your posts, for instance, that I'll never reach the level of understanding of the experts I post with on CU. Sorry, I needed to get off tract to answer your misconception about "years and classes."
To be more specific, the instructors teaching the various grading classes (who must not be as expert a grader) would prefer we assign a technical grade of VF details, holed, cleaned, ED, and rim dings to the coin you were nice enough to provide. I find specific images speed up the learning process when discussing grading - don't you?
But that is done in a teaching exercise where we learned to see every thing on a coin (both its defects and attributes) and then possibly back off on the defects that are not serious enough and may be expected/tolerated on very old coins.
"...and acknowledge that that description is just the beginning of the more complete description that would help determine value..."
We'll need to part ways on this also. What exactly would be a "more complete" description? The one I posted above listing all the coin's defects? You see, a majority of our modern "details" grades from major TPGS are actually the old, maligned, "technical" system that never worked to establish a coin's value! That coin's value is going to be what some dealer and collector agree on. Nothing more and nothing less. I'll bet most of us wouldn't give it a second look (unless rare var.) until it was priced below "dirt cheap" or free.
I hope I've given you a little insight into what "true" technical grading was in the 1970's before ANA in CO got a hold of it. Best of luck to you!
PS I almost forgot, @Baley said: "I thought this concept was axiomatic, and it took me a minute to realize that you thought it was revolutionary."
Each of us live in a certain "box" of time. We know little about the time out of our place in it unless we are students of history - in this case numismatic history. Ever hear of the world famous american numismatist Sir Waldo Nemo Heathwick? I didn't think so - I just made that up to make a point which is this: FORTY-FIVE YEARS AGO probably before you were (in the box) a professional numismatist (?) "Technical Grading" was A BRAND-NEW, REVOLUTIONARY concept!
Now, I shall look up that axieo-something word you used.
Well to say the least these guys really do cater (or is it crater?) to the acid treated buffalo nickel enthusiast, behold this one.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Whew, lots of good points made on this thread about damaged coins.
The acid on a buff brings up a missing date and a full horn. That Does Not mean it can be graded like a non damaged coin.
I think its pretty simple really,
Damaged coins have no grade.
Slab should read:
Genuine-Damaged, Acid Treated.
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There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
yes nice coins have shown up in ICG holders just as they have in SEGS and ANACS holders in addition to the big two, but to
my knowledge ICG is the only grading service that gives these types of high detail grades for acid treated coins.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders.
But pray tell me how ICG got the ability to sell their coins via eBay? Very shortly after they came into existence they were in the “group of four” coin grading services, the top two of which we know and the lower level being anacs and icg”. IMO they had not been around long enough but they were instantly tagged as legit. Never could figure that one out. Is their anything they try to do to differentiate themselves from the big two. If I had a nice group of restored date buffs I wanted to get slabbed (like 1918/7-d and 1916/1916 and 1913s type 2) maybe I would use them based upon what I have seen in their holders. Most slobbers will call these acid treated coins “AG details, acid treated” and not put the so-called post-acid treated date on their holders. But as far as these being worthless many sell for significant premiums from what I see on eBay.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I have some spelling errors above and see no way to edit a post to a thread after it is posted. Is their anyway to do this
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@boyernumismatics said: "But pray tell me how ICG got the ability to sell their coins via eBay? Very shortly after they came into existence they were in the “group of four” coin grading services, the top two of which we know and the lower level being anacs and icg”. IMO they had not been around long enough but they were instantly tagged as legit. Never could figure that one out. "
OMG, please stop. My eyes are rolling and I'm spitting my coffee all over the computer!
It's really very simple. ANY professional authenticator/grader who has EVER worked for ICG has more numismatic knowledge than you WILL EVER have. That's why they are in the "four." Easy see...LOL.