@Insider2 said: @boyernumismatics said: "But pray tell me how ICG got the ability to sell their coins via eBay? Very shortly after they came into existence they were in the “group of four” coin grading services, the top two of which we know and the lower level being anacs and icg”. IMO they had not been around long enough but they were instantly tagged as legit. Never could figure that one out. "
OMG, please stop. My eyes are rolling and I'm spitting my coffee all over the computer!
It's really very simple. ANY professional authenticator/grader who has EVER worked for ICG has more numismatic knowledge than you WILL EVER have. That's why they are in the "four." Easy see...LOL.
I guess Inslider2 has all his coins slabbed in ICG holders!!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Here is another ICG offering on eBay for $1995!!
(may be of interest to inslider2)
If you want to get that kind of money you gotta post good pix
(and good coins too!)
Notice on the second pic the seller has the list price $7000.00! wow!!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Two more pics to go with above. I don’t understand how anyone could try to get two grand from an acid etched
1918/7-d To get that kind of dough you have to offer up a 1916/1916 doubled die obverse!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX said: "I guess Inslider2 has all his coins slabbed in ICG holders!!"
LOL, Just when I got my computer cleaned....Another typical "Puff-of-Smoke" post around here that made me choke my lunch!"
Actually, I've been collecting authentication service paper certificates, slabs, etc. long before there was a PCGS forum that allowed collectors to post uninformed nonsense or drool over commonly clashed Buffalo nickels. I have coins certified by just about everyone, going back to the TPGS certificates in the 1970's before PCGS was a gleam in Mr. Hall's eye. I've also saved the parts and labels from the slabs of every brand-X service (you've never heard of) when I cracked out the coins inside.
As for your assumption, which I hope we all take as the humor I believe you intended - I probably own less than six ICG slabs (one acid 1918/7-D 5c) if I don't count the several dozen of my counterfeits In their "Yellow Label" educational slabs.
IMO, it will not be long before the other three TPGS will copy this service - Just as they all eventually copied the PCI problem coin slabs w/ a red label.
PS The instructor in the Jacksonville FL Coin Club grading seminar this past weekend said "Buy the coin not the holder" and "We can find examples of over-graded, under-graded, and correctly graded coins in all the TPGS holders and that's all we will say about any of the grading services in the class."
I cannot understand why yo believe problem coins cannot be graded. They are all over the place! In a grading class this weekend, we saw examples of "problem coins" graded by all the services. In a few cases the top two services actually missed repairs! We also learned/saw the evidence that in many instances, problem coins are often graded slightly more liberally due to the fact that their value is already "killed" and their actual technical grade does not matter.
As for posting slabbed coins being offered at "stupid" price levels there are plenty of examples of this on Ebay. It means nothing.
PS If you ever get a chance to take the ANA grading course that includes "grading problem coins," you might change some of your views. You would be amazed (and probably saddened) at the damaged JUNK coins that many of the collectors in the class cherished.
@Baley said: "They don't need to be "graded" at all, just Priced. Sometimes a Grade helps with determining Value. Sometimes, as in this case, not."
All coins are "priced" by the buyer and the seller no matter what the label says or if they are raw. Now, which of these coins would be higher priced?
An 1889-CC Morgan graded AG details Whizzed or an 1889-CC Morgan AU-55 details Whizzed. I hope you say the AU!
Now what would be higher priced?
A 1616/16 Buffalo 5c G details Acid etched or a 1916/16 Buffalo 5c AU details acid etched.
All of us should be thankful that a few decades ago, the TPGS were dragged "kicking and screaming" into grading problem coins rather than keeping the submission fee and returning the coin!!
I cannot believe this is a hard concept to grasp. IMO, this entire thread keeps going because some have a personal preference against any form of damage on a coin. Get over it! No one is telling you what to buy. The TPGS slab and grade problem coins. It is easy. The YN's in the class this weekend could do it. I should expect any person who claims to be a knowledgeable numismatist or nickel "expert" to be able to sit next to them and explain how easy it is: Open the grading guide. Compare the photos to the details that remain on the coin; assign a grade and state the problem...in this case acid etched surface. Yikes! You passed.
@gyocomgd said:
There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
yes nice coins have shown up in ICG holders just as they have in SEGS and ANACS holders in addition to the big two, but to
my knowledge ICG is the only grading service that gives these types of high detail grades for acid treated coins.
Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders.
But pray tell me how ICG got the ability to sell their coins via eBay? Very shortly after they came into existence they were in the “group of four” coin grading services, the top two of which we know and the lower level being anacs and icg”. IMO they had not been around long enough but they were instantly tagged as legit. Never could figure that one out. Is their anything they try to do to differentiate themselves from the big two. If I had a nice group of restored date buffs I wanted to get slabbed (like 1918/7-d and 1916/1916 and 1913s type 2) maybe I would use them based upon what I have seen in their holders. Most slobbers will call these acid treated coins “AG details, acid treated” and not put the so-called post-acid treated date on their holders. But as far as these being worthless many sell for significant premiums from what I see on eBay.
Any TPG that meets the following eBay standards may be listed:
Graded 50,000 or more pre-1956 coins
Have an online population report
Employ at least three numismatic expert graders, one of whom is a member of the Professional Numismatists Guild, and all are members of the American Numismatic Association
Buyback guarantee for coins that turn out to be counterfeit, damaged, misgraded or misattributed
Coins must be slabbed in 'unique, state-of-the-art, tamper-resistant holders with anti-counterfeiting measures'
The grading service must have online verification of unique serial numbers on its holders.
a big thank you to ArizonaRareCoins for the following which I did not know .\Any TPG that meets the following eBay standards may be listed:
Graded 50,000 or more pre-1956 coins
Have an online population report
Employ at least three numismatic expert graders, one of whom is a member of the Professional Numismatists Guild, and all are members of the American Numismatic Association
Buyback guarantee for coins that turn out to be counterfeit, damaged, misgraded or misattributed
Coins must be slabbed in 'unique, state-of-the-art, tamper-resistant holders with anti-counterfeiting measures'
The grading service must have online verification of unique serial numbers on its holders.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I wrote that in my opinion: "ANY professional authenticator/grader who has EVER worked for ICG has more numismatic knowledge than you WILL EVER have;" in response to a post by @BUFFNIXX in a reply to this post by @boyernumismatics: "Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders."
All you two could do was hit the disagree button. Typical. I wonder why you didn't back up your opinion. Is it because you cannot? BTW, the same statement I wrote about present and past ICG graders AND now I'll include any other TPGS grader who has worked for at least 10 years at ANACS, NGC, or PCGS knows more than both of you combined will ever know. This is just a fact and not delivered with any malice.
Hi Peter! Best regards, I wondered if @boyernumismatics was you. Now I "know" six people on CU.
I wrote that in my opinion: "ANY professional authenticator/grader who has EVER worked for ICG has more numismatic knowledge than you WILL EVER have;" in response to a post by @BUFFNIXX in a reply to this post by @boyernumismatics: "Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders."
All you two could do was hit the disagree button. Typical. I wonder why you didn't back up your opinion. Is it because you cannot? BTW, the same statement I wrote about present and past ICG graders AND now I'll include any other TPGS grader who has worked for at least 10 years at ANACS, NGC, or PCGS knows more than both of you combined will ever know. This is just a fact and not delivered with any malice.
Hi Peter! Best regards, I wondered if @boyernumismatics was you. Now I "know" six people on CU.
Yeah, I have no numismatic knowledge. Just because I've run a coin store for 20 years and worked for Heritage as a grader I'm just an uninformed novice. You are PATHETIC.
@ArizonaRareCoins posted: "Yeah, I have no numismatic knowledge. Just because I've run a coin store for 20 years and worked for Heritage as a grader I'm just an uninformed novice."
Now you're communicating and making points. You must be that one exception that proves the rule!
BTW, no one said you have no numismatic knowledge, we are talking about the AMOUNT and the extent of that knowledge (not including commercial coin pricing or running a business). Glad to know you worked for Heritage. That certainly adds to your resume as lots of folks have worked at that company for various reasons and left for various reasons.
@BUFFNIXX said: "Yer not going to win an argument with inslider2 so don’t even try!"
I grew up at a time when there was none of this political correctness. Men were men and we argued, fought, and called each other names. That's how we learned about life.
Now, we are dealing with numismatic concepts. I learn new things all the time and will change my mind and give credit to the person who changes it. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line here, folks started throwing "disagree 's" around w/o backing anything up. Additionally, they put their preferences ahead of logic.
I don't like "problem coins" of any kind. That should be in agreement with most posters. When I buy a coin w/ a problem - I know it - no surprises.
What I will argue until the day I die is that a problem coin of any kind can be given a grade based on the amount of design details present. News Flash - like it or not the TPGS's do it. To ignore this fact, to change the topic to the problem coin's value is just....well,...
Now, what do you have to say about this post.
PS I'll bet you MAY know more about Buffalo nickels than I do...See? Furthermore, if we play nice, we will both improve our knowledge by the things we learn from one another! Looking forward to your input on other topics in the future!
@gyocomgd said:
There are collectors who see altering coins as something immoral and disrespectful. I don't go along with that at all. People are entitled to do what they wish with their coins--they are their property of the owner. I also disagree with the notion that we merely "rent" coins, that we are only caretakers and that they belong to history.
Having said that, acid-treating to me renders the coin worthless, at least in terms of my wanting to own one. I just have zero interest in ever owning one. As for ICG stabbing them, they in my view can do what they want, so long as it's on the label. But I have no more regard for them than I would your basic carnival barker. Which is a little self-defeating, because nice coins have been known to appear in ICG holders.
Very well said, Guy. I could not have said it any better. You acid treat a buffalo nickel, you just destroyed it, it's junk now.
My own opinion of course but I'm so happy others feel the same way I do.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said: "You acid treat a buffalo nickel, you just destroyed it, it's junk now. My own opinion of course but I'm so happy others feel the same way I do."
When you acid treat a coin, you destroy it. WE ALL AGREE. THE COIN IS A CULL, FILLER, etc. However, I think a reasonable numismatist will agree that if it happens to be a "rare" date, etc. it is not worthless junk.
I should like to remind you all that the original question was: "How do you grade...." While many of the posters feel a acid etched coin cannot be graded, there is a graded example in the OP. You can disagree all you wish about the grade assigned, the reputation of the TPGS, and the value of the coin. Based on the evidence, I think any reasonable poster here can finally say:
"I guess we really can grade a problem coin!" Any one disagree? Then let's all move on...LOL.
One more thought Try to pull this "That problem coin cannot be graded" crap off in an advanced grading seminar and a good instructor will make you look like a fool! In a sweet way of course... I was there.
As a coin with absolutely no verifiable date is already "ruined" I do not feel that acid dated coins are criminal to the hobby. A truly rare coin can be found and as long as it is genuine and holdered, let the market decide what to pay for it and if it is truly collectible. I would not even place a grade on the holder if I were the grading company. Just verify it as genuine and acid treated date and let it fly. I would be willing to bet that eventually someone would try to garner a complete collection if not already.
Jim
Edited to add: Sorry, did not know this was an old thread. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Comments
Yes, just click the > @BUFFNIXX said:
Yes! just click the "Gear Wheel" on your post, to your right. Where the Date and Time is. That will bring the word Edit up Then just click that.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I guess Inslider2 has all his coins slabbed in ICG holders!!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I have one like this. At least know I can see why it has such a odd color. it was whizzed
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Here is another ICG offering on eBay for $1995!!
(may be of interest to inslider2)
If you want to get that kind of money you gotta post good pix
(and good coins too!)
Notice on the second pic the seller has the list price $7000.00! wow!!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Whizzed and acid treated are two different things.
Two more pics to go with above. I don’t understand how anyone could try to get two grand from an acid etched
1918/7-d To get that kind of dough you have to offer up a 1916/1916 doubled die obverse!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX said: "I guess Inslider2 has all his coins slabbed in ICG holders!!"
LOL, Just when I got my computer cleaned....Another typical "Puff-of-Smoke" post around here that made me choke my lunch!"
Actually, I've been collecting authentication service paper certificates, slabs, etc. long before there was a PCGS forum that allowed collectors to post uninformed nonsense or drool over commonly clashed Buffalo nickels. I have coins certified by just about everyone, going back to the TPGS certificates in the 1970's before PCGS was a gleam in Mr. Hall's eye. I've also saved the parts and labels from the slabs of every brand-X service (you've never heard of) when I cracked out the coins inside.
As for your assumption, which I hope we all take as the humor I believe you intended - I probably own less than six ICG slabs (one acid 1918/7-D 5c) if I don't count the several dozen of my counterfeits In their "Yellow Label" educational slabs.
IMO, it will not be long before the other three TPGS will copy this service - Just as they all eventually copied the PCI problem coin slabs w/ a red label.
PS The instructor in the Jacksonville FL Coin Club grading seminar this past weekend said "Buy the coin not the holder" and "We can find examples of over-graded, under-graded, and correctly graded coins in all the TPGS holders and that's all we will say about any of the grading services in the class."
@BUFFNIXX
I cannot understand why yo believe problem coins cannot be graded. They are all over the place! In a grading class this weekend, we saw examples of "problem coins" graded by all the services. In a few cases the top two services actually missed repairs! We also learned/saw the evidence that in many instances, problem coins are often graded slightly more liberally due to the fact that their value is already "killed" and their actual technical grade does not matter.
As for posting slabbed coins being offered at "stupid" price levels there are plenty of examples of this on Ebay. It means nothing.
PS If you ever get a chance to take the ANA grading course that includes "grading problem coins," you might change some of your views. You would be amazed (and probably saddened) at the damaged JUNK coins that many of the collectors in the class cherished.
They don't need to be "graded" at all, just Priced. Sometimes a Grade helps with determining Value. Sometimes, as in this case, not.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said: "They don't need to be "graded" at all, just Priced. Sometimes a Grade helps with determining Value. Sometimes, as in this case, not."
All coins are "priced" by the buyer and the seller no matter what the label says or if they are raw. Now, which of these coins would be higher priced?
An 1889-CC Morgan graded AG details Whizzed or an 1889-CC Morgan AU-55 details Whizzed. I hope you say the AU!
Now what would be higher priced?
A 1616/16 Buffalo 5c G details Acid etched or a 1916/16 Buffalo 5c AU details acid etched.
All of us should be thankful that a few decades ago, the TPGS were dragged "kicking and screaming" into grading problem coins rather than keeping the submission fee and returning the coin!!
I cannot believe this is a hard concept to grasp. IMO, this entire thread keeps going because some have a personal preference against any form of damage on a coin. Get over it! No one is telling you what to buy. The TPGS slab and grade problem coins. It is easy. The YN's in the class this weekend could do it. I should expect any person who claims to be a knowledgeable numismatist or nickel "expert" to be able to sit next to them and explain how easy it is: Open the grading guide. Compare the photos to the details that remain on the coin; assign a grade and state the problem...in this case acid etched surface. Yikes! You passed.
Any TPG that meets the following eBay standards may be listed:
a big thank you to ArizonaRareCoins for the following which I did not know .\Any TPG that meets the following eBay standards may be listed:
Graded 50,000 or more pre-1956 coins
Have an online population report
Employ at least three numismatic expert graders, one of whom is a member of the Professional Numismatists Guild, and all are members of the American Numismatic Association
Buyback guarantee for coins that turn out to be counterfeit, damaged, misgraded or misattributed
Coins must be slabbed in 'unique, state-of-the-art, tamper-resistant holders with anti-counterfeiting measures'
The grading service must have online verification of unique serial numbers on its holders.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Thanks for the info AZ Coins!
@ArizonaRareCoins
@basetsb
I wrote that in my opinion: "ANY professional authenticator/grader who has EVER worked for ICG has more numismatic knowledge than you WILL EVER have;" in response to a post by @BUFFNIXX in a reply to this post by @boyernumismatics: "Hence another reason why ICG is a sub standard, lower tier grading company with low respect for their grades and the legitimacy of The coins inside their holders."
All you two could do was hit the disagree button. Typical. I wonder why you didn't back up your opinion. Is it because you cannot? BTW, the same statement I wrote about present and past ICG graders AND now I'll include any other TPGS grader who has worked for at least 10 years at ANACS, NGC, or PCGS knows more than both of you combined will ever know. This is just a fact and not delivered with any malice.
Hi Peter! Best regards, I wondered if @boyernumismatics was you. Now I "know" six people on CU.
Yeah, I have no numismatic knowledge. Just because I've run a coin store for 20 years and worked for Heritage as a grader I'm just an uninformed novice. You are PATHETIC.
@ArizonaRareCoins posted: "Yeah, I have no numismatic knowledge. Just because I've run a coin store for 20 years and worked for Heritage as a grader I'm just an uninformed novice."
Now you're communicating and making points. You must be that one exception that proves the rule!
BTW, no one said you have no numismatic knowledge, we are talking about the AMOUNT and the extent of that knowledge (not including commercial coin pricing or running a business). Glad to know you worked for Heritage. That certainly adds to your resume as lots of folks have worked at that company for various reasons and left for various reasons.
yer not going to win an argument with inslider2 so don’t even try!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX said: "Yer not going to win an argument with inslider2 so don’t even try!"
I grew up at a time when there was none of this political correctness. Men were men and we argued, fought, and called each other names. That's how we learned about life.
Now, we are dealing with numismatic concepts. I learn new things all the time and will change my mind and give credit to the person who changes it. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line here, folks started throwing "disagree 's" around w/o backing anything up. Additionally, they put their preferences ahead of logic.
I don't like "problem coins" of any kind. That should be in agreement with most posters. When I buy a coin w/ a problem - I know it - no surprises.
What I will argue until the day I die is that a problem coin of any kind can be given a grade based on the amount of design details present. News Flash - like it or not the TPGS's do it. To ignore this fact, to change the topic to the problem coin's value is just....well,...
Now, what do you have to say about this post.
PS I'll bet you MAY know more about Buffalo nickels than I do...See? Furthermore, if we play nice, we will both improve our knowledge by the things we learn from one another! Looking forward to your input on other topics in the future!
It's just About Good ; which is similar to saying it's bad.
Very well said, Guy. I could not have said it any better. You acid treat a buffalo nickel, you just destroyed it, it's junk now.
My own opinion of course but I'm so happy others feel the same way I do.
@crazyhounddog said: "You acid treat a buffalo nickel, you just destroyed it, it's junk now. My own opinion of course but I'm so happy others feel the same way I do."
When you acid treat a coin, you destroy it. WE ALL AGREE. THE COIN IS A CULL, FILLER, etc. However, I think a reasonable numismatist will agree that if it happens to be a "rare" date, etc. it is not worthless junk.
I should like to remind you all that the original question was: "How do you grade...." While many of the posters feel a acid etched coin cannot be graded, there is a graded example in the OP. You can disagree all you wish about the grade assigned, the reputation of the TPGS, and the value of the coin. Based on the evidence, I think any reasonable poster here can finally say:
"I guess we really can grade a problem coin!" Any one disagree? Then let's all move on...LOL.
One more thought
Try to pull this "That problem coin cannot be graded" crap off in an advanced grading seminar and a good instructor will make you look like a fool! In a sweet way of course... I was there.
I think this thread should go away.
@koynekwest said: "I think this thread should go away."
I won't let it! I'm astounded that most cannot grade a problem coin or think they should not be graded at all.
As a coin with absolutely no verifiable date is already "ruined" I do not feel that acid dated coins are criminal to the hobby. A truly rare coin can be found and as long as it is genuine and holdered, let the market decide what to pay for it and if it is truly collectible. I would not even place a grade on the holder if I were the grading company. Just verify it as genuine and acid treated date and let it fly. I would be willing to bet that eventually someone would try to garner a complete collection if not already.
Jim
Edited to add: Sorry, did not know this was an old thread. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain