Serious problem at Elemetal
CaptHenway
Posts: 32,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
1
Comments
I don't see how any of this is because of Trump?
The company’s recent troubles relate to criminal charges against one of its executives last month. U.S. authorities arrested Juan Pablo Granda, the company’s operations manager responsible for sourcing unrefined metal in South America. The charges allege Granda helped launder billions of dollars for criminal organizations, including drug traffickers, who operate illegal gold mines. Elemetal purchased the mine output and imported it through Miami, FL.
Based on those charges, the COMEX has temporarily suspended the company’s registration. Elemetal bars cannot be used for delivery against gold and silver futures contracts on the exchange.
I have a few of their bars. Is there any concern that the bars don't contain the proper fineness of gold or silver? I weighed mine and they are all full weight.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There were actually 3 NTR employees that were indicted. And the COMEX suspension appears to be permanent (and is only the only time in the past 10 years that COMEX suspended warranting of precious metals).
I haven't heard any concerns regarding OPM/NTR/Elemetal bars, nor do I suspect any problems with them (aside from the fact that they may well contain illegally sourced metal). Specifically, if the bars were bad, it would likely get detected pretty quickly and could easily spell the end of the company (actually, Elemetal Refining a/k/a OPM is in the process of being shut down, so it is a moot point).
I'm covering this (mainly as it pertains to Provident Metals and Elemetal Vault, rather than the refining/wholesale side of things) at http://about.ag/Elemetal/ .
Man, that is a scary thought. This is why as a coin/PM newbie, i stay away from generic
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
The Elemetal part of the linked story has nothing to do with the Trump part of the linked story.
I believe Provident Metals owned or had a joint venture with Elemetal Mint. I was wondering why there had not been any new products produced by Elemetal. Now we know. BTW, Elemetal Mints designs were top notch...mostly in high relief ( Privateer Series, Egyptian Gods , American Landmarks, just to name a few)
FWIW, both Provident Metals and Elemetal Mint are subsidiaries of Elemetal, LLC (Provident is also referred to as "Elemetal Online"). Elemetal Mint was described as a collaboration between NTR, OPM, and Provident, but all 3 are subsidiaries of Elemetal (Elemetal was basically formed from NTR; OPM had been merged into NTR, and Provident was part of Elemetal by late 2013).
The irony here is just overwhelming! COMEX is suspending a company from its exchange not because of fineness or weight issues, but simply because of WHERE the metal came from. Meanwhile, I would bet my next 10 years worth of paychecks that COMEX has in its vaults not only A) thousands of ounces of WW2 "Nazi gold" , but
nowhere near enough metals to settle all the contracts it sells on a day to day basis. Hey COMEX.....why don't you focus on your internal problems such as those mentioned above, as well as verified illegal price manipulation before pointing your fat fingers at other companies?
Amen, Geckster.
I don't think an exchange wants to knowingly facilitate business with buyers/sellers if they are being accused of money laundering, trafficking/terrorism and other serious offenses.
COMEX requirements for physical holdings include minimum fineness, weight, and acceptable refiner. I'm sure COMEX is not questioning the quality of the metal and is only suspending a refiner that might put COMEX at risk. Imagine the run on it's vaults if COMEX started to see some of its warehouse metal tied up in a court.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I get it.....COMEX is basically saying if the metals come from illegal South American mines, that's no good, but if it came from the teeth of slaughtered people in the 30's, and 40's....oh well, that's just the nature of precious metals. COMEX is on par as being one of the greatest ponzi schemes in human history.....just a few steps behind the U.S. dollar! And they are worried about their image??? Simply laughable!
The ponzi scheme is dependent on the victims not seeing risk. Tie up even a small amount of COMEX metal in a money laundering case and everyone runs for the exit. This of course, would be a good thing concerning PM price discovery.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Actually them going belly up would be better for price than Comex...
When one doesn't understand the trading complex, well they keep repeating the same ol nonsense...
Surprised, but not really, that no one recognizes the quote regarding retail buying, when there is no retail in phyzz that's a major league warning, and 50 gazillion silver eagles at 25+ ain't gonna win, or cover the spread...
Here is a Bloomberg story from a few days ago with more background info as to what was going on:
.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-07/florida-boutique-tied-by-u-s-to-alleged-gold-laundering-plot
.
Provident and Elemetal seem to be dodging my queries about whether metal backing its stored metal program (run by its sister company, Elemetal Vault) is subject to any liens.
This is very serious -- if there are liens, it would seem to me to indicate fraud (how can a company give customers title to metal that has a lien?), and there is justifiable concern at this point that there could be a lien. So why isn't Provident answering the question? It's a lot like when someone pleads the Fifth Amendment. It of course doesn't mean they are guilty, but why would you plead the fifth if you didn't do anything wrong?
I am hoping they are able to answer this question.
"Investment returns in the stock market have been strong since last November, keeping momentum-oriented hedge funds and institutions in “risk on” mode."
that idea, for me, almost buried me in $17 silver.
You own "Paper Silver?" My condolences.
No, in most cases I strongly discourage people from owning paper silver.
I have been following this thread since first posted. Yesterday I got an email from Provident with the subject "Baby Come Back", offering $20 off any purchase over $100. But with the state of flux that this company and its affiliates are in, I wouldn't consider buying anything unless by CC. Of course, the CC adds 4% to any price, which kinda wipes out the coupon's savings. Not worth the hassle IMO. Interesting timing on Provident's part, though. Makes one wonder if there may be some cash flow problems...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
After Joe Merrick was called into a thread on reddit's silverbug sub-reddit, he stated this which was worthless:
"Anyway, for over a year, and completely outside of the scope of the alleged activities of 3 former employees of Elemetal Miami, I have been looking for another partner for our next phase of growth with Elemetal's blessing. In late 2016, I think I found that partner and we are in talks to get a deal together. Elemetal is, and has been for over a year, in full support of this action. We will soon have a new partnership outside of the Elemetal family and both Elemetal and Provident will continue to provide value to the industry."
AboutAg is about.ag (?)
Their Elemental page
Screw provident anyway. I used to like them as a cheaper alternative to APMEX but their selection is much less than it was 5 years ago . Well I should say their bullion selection is less , the overpriced crap inventory has expanded.
Who would be dumb enough to get involved in the elemental vault scam? Especially after bullion direct just burned a ton of people only a year ago.
And NWT.
Unwashed masses?
Unless you are one of their customers, or trying to become one, for this, then I don't see how they owe you an answer.
For the record, I am one who is very against having someone else hold any of my investments in such a way (if I buy PMs, I want to hold the PMs, not have someone else hold them for me and send me a statement).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I am sort of an "industry watchdog" -- while there are lots and lots of websites and blogs that cover the bullion industry, I'm really the only one that addresses the fraud/scam aspects. I'm not great at journalism, but I'm great at digging up facts. If people are trying to find out if a bullion dealer is safe to do business with, they come to me. I started following and warning people about Tulving, Bullion Direct, and NWTM -- each starting about 3-5 months before they filed for bankruptcy.
Unfortunately, the masses tend not to find out about me until it is too late (much of what I do now is following post-bankruptcy news for the somewhere around 10,000 individuals owed money in those bankruptcies). I don't hype things like the Silver Doctors, or have fancy YouTube videos. I just research and write.
And Provident almost certainly knows about my writing (many of the bullion dealers, small and large, will use my site to see what is happening with the companies I follow). When I started following Bullion Direct and NWTM, the heads of both companies were happy to talk with me (and both of those companies were running scams).
I don't feel that Provident is obligated to respond, but if they choose not to respond to grave concerns, that is a business decision, and you have to wonder why they are making it. Maybe Provident is too busy to respond. Maybe they have a policy only to respond to media requests regarding positive news. Maybe they forgot about it. But where I sit, I have to at least consider the worst.
I don't know. I buy and sell with NTR for nearly a decade. Fluid transactions and delivery with their system/portal/ traders.
look at the bankruptcy info on about.ag
generally there are warning signs before things go really south.
until this current stuff is fully cleared, I suggest much caution going forward.
Link?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
my apologies.... if I confused with the non-specific "bankruptcy info" statement.
I meant past bankruptcy info on other companies.
start reading these from the bottom up
Tulving meltdown
Bullion Direct meltdown
NWT meltdown
I've made several purchases from Provident within the last 2 weeks, w/o any issues and paid via e check. All items have been delivered, or are in-transit. So far, knock on wood.
And that is what I am hoping to see moving forward. I haven't seen any issues of delivery delays (which was the key red flag with Tulving, Bullion Direct, and NWTM). The catch is that we have no idea of what is going on behind the scenes. If Elemetal was having financial troubles (they can't be; Elemetal Refining said to the press they were solvent, and they are going to try to get their customers paid within 6 months), someone might say "Gee, if there are delivery delays at Provident, word will get out quickly. Let's lend them as much money as we need until we're out of cash."
Then, there is the whole stored metal piece. Provident pushes Elemetal Vault as their storage option (where they claim you own fractions of large bars). Problem is, those bars are sitting at the vault inside OPM -- exactly where metal is reportedly going to Elemetal's banks. The banks shouldn't be able to touch the storage metal if Elemetal properly handled the situation (e.g. allocating and titling the metal). But Provident chose not to respond with a simple "Yeah, all is cool over there" and distances themselves from their storage open (still offering it, but talking about "load outs", and making it sound like they weren't all part of the same company).
Why can't they respond if everything is fine? Joe Merrick obviously knows there is negative publicity out there regarding NTR and the gold smuggling, and that word is out about Elemetal's financial problems -- and he stuck his neck out with a blog post. But he can't say "Yeah, the stored metal you bought through us is safe"?
Until Provident can either say "Yes, the storage option we are offering is safe, here is why" or "Oh ****, your concerns were right, the SHTF and there is trouble there; we have immediately removed them from our website", it looks too risky for me to recommend using Provident without extreme care (e.g. using a credit card which protects you if they file for bankruptcy, or sending amounts of money you wouldn't mind losing, going with a bank wire over slower-to-clear payment methods).
I just heard from Elemetal Vault. They state that their metal is held in a vault in a separate state, and is not and can not be subject to any liens.
It would have been nice if Provident could have come out and said the same thing, but at least the question is answered.
I disagree that their metal can't be seized, especially by the feds.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Was the leakers name?...
I found the issues surrounding Elemental Vault disturbing for many reasons. Besides the usual ones, was my desire for a domestic platform "similar" to BullionVault. I thought that I had found a domestic platform that allowed essentially wholesale transactions with minimal storage fees but was not subject to the foreign investment concerns related to FBAR and FATCA requirements of BullionVault (which I use and like - great customer service and execution) or Goldmoney (which I use and like too). Elemental Vault has a nice online platform that executed well for me, but customer service was spotty. That was never a problem as execution by the system as a whole was flawless.
So, I decided to get out of my gold and silver holdings in Elemental Vault as the risk seemed too great until the water settled. I sold everything on the platform on April 13 and held my breath as to whether the cash would show up in my account at Elemental Vault as it can take days. Bottom line is that the system executed flawlessly. The cash showed up in my Elemental Vault account next day on April 14 in the morning. I immediately asked for it to be withdrawn (they send it to the bank on record), and they wired it same day, received by my bank in California on the 14th -- no fuss, no muss.
Frankly, I like this platform, so I hope the issues are resolved and trust restored. I would like to use it again as I had nothing but positive results with the system itself. But I won't do that until it is clear the company will not be compromised by the recent legal problems.
Why would you take on the counter party risk of someone else holding your gold? Be a lot cheaper, with quicker trade times, to just put the money in a gold miner stock or a gold ETF.
FWIW, Kitco has decent PM pool accounts that I used before I learned about risk.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Ah, Kitco -- they have been in the Canadian equivalent of Chapter 11 bankruptcy for about 6 years now (days after their offices were raided by dozens of police, shutting their offices down for a day, which they tried to explain away by saying there was a massive power outage in town). And as far as I know, Revenu Quebec still believes they owe $300M in a tax fraud case. They claim their pool account is 100% backed by... yes, other pool accounts.
The latest in Elemetal news is that a glass company (that uses silver in coating windows) just sued Elemetal Refining over $650K+ of silver that they claim is their property (impure silver the glass company shipped to Elemetal to refine and return in pure form, minus fees). They state that Elemetal refused to return the metal.
And that is why no one but me now holds my gold.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
... and now Elemetal Capital (f/k/a NTR Bullion Group) sent customers a notice yesterday saying that they are performing an inventory audit, and for the next 2-3 weeks will be unable to buy metal (e.g. coins/bars, not scrap) from customers. If customers do send in metal, Elemetal will ship it off to their scrap partners, and pay scrap prices (e.g. they would pay about $.85 below spot for ASEs).
I can hear the fat lady warming up her voice right now.......
Elemetal is the company that makes those beautiful privateer rounds with the skull in the obverse right?
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
You are correct sir.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
My gut tells me they are working out an arrangement with RMC, I'll be watching . . .
Some of their newer products are now manufactured by the Osborne Mint. Perhaps they already have a new producer.
That would be ironic -- RMC is one of the other refiners that has recently been somewhat caught up in the illegal gold trade, in at least 3 different 'incidents' over the past couple years (although RMC's attorney stated "All sources of precious metals at RMC come from legitimate, conflict free and ethical sources" -- apparently their attorney knows more than Colombian and Ecuadorian authorities).
APMEX also seems to have a whole line of Osborne Mint products. To date none of them really do anything for me . . .
I like their design for the Angels & Demons series...
United States vs Granda
SCHEDULING ORDER as to Juan P. Granda, Samer H. Barrage, Renato J. Rodriguez.
Calendar Call set for 5/23/2017 09:00 AM in Miami Division before Judge Robert N. Scola Jr.,
Jury Trial set for 5/30/2017 09:00 AM in Miami Division before Judge Robert N. Scola Jr. Signed by Judge Robert N. Scola, Jr on 4/19/2017.