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Does CAC really mean more than solid for the grade ?
Gazes
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I know many have strong opinions about cac. This question is less about subjective opinions and more about the actual numbers. There are certain series where the sticker rate is low. For instance, some gold series the sticker rate is below 10% over a large sample of coins. So if a series has a sticker rate of 8% (out of thousands and thousands of graded coins) that would seem to suggest that cac is only stickering A coins as opposed to A and B coins. The other inference could be that within the series of gold the large majority are over graded and only 10% or so or solid for the grade. Curious of others thoughts. Thanks
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But in any event, like grading, CAC is an opinion rendered on that day... and in addition to a visual examination of the coin, the reviewer needs to assess, "would I want this coin on my buy list?" If the answer is no, then it won't sticker.
Stickers are coins JA would buy, in addition to other dimensions of qualitative analysis. That is also one reason why CAC doesn't sticker some coins/series...they are not coins JA would want to buy.
But in any event, like grading, CAC is an opinion rendered on that day... and in addition to a visual examination of the coin, the reviewer needs to assess, "would I want this coin on my buy list?" If the answer is no, then it won't sticker.
Classic gold has one of the lowest sticker rates. I can't imagine JA doesn't want classic gold over some series with a higher sticker rate
has anyone here had Mr. Albanese offer to buy a coin that CAC has stickered ?
That line about him stickering a coin he would buy is hogwash. Of the more than 500 coins I have sent to him, I have not ever had an offer to buy one. There are a few here who say they did but he could not possibly buy all or even a portion on the coins he stickers. (Why would he want to anyway?)
Those who keep saying this just need to browse over to the CAC website for even 15 seconds and finally get it straight on what the sticker means. While they have bought many coins, it does not mean they would buy all of them.
has anyone here had Mr. Albanese offer to buy a coin that CAC has stickered ?
That line about him stickering a coin he would buy is hogwash. Of the more than 500 coins I have sent to him, I have not ever had an offer to buy one. There are a few here who say they did but he could not possibly buy all or even a portion on the coins he stickers. (Why would he want to anyway?)
Those who keep saying this just need to browse over to the CAC website for even 15 seconds and finally get it straight on what the sticker means.
It would seem that if one was interested in selling to JA that it would be wise to include a note with your submission saying that you'll entertain an offer.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
has anyone here had Mr. Albanese offer to buy a coin that CAC has stickered ?
That line about him stickering a coin he would buy is hogwash. Of the more than 500 coins I have sent to him, I have not ever had an offer to buy one. There are a few here who say they did but he could not possibly buy all or even a portion on the coins he stickers. (Why would he want to anyway?)
Those who keep saying this just need to browse over to the CAC website for even 15 seconds and finally get it straight on what the sticker means. While they have bought many coins, it does not mean they would buy all of them.
The point of my OP is I know what the website says but the objective numbers for instance for classic gold show that less than 10% stickers. My question is whether that means these coins are actually better than solid for the grade or are 90% of the coins in this series low for the grade or worse
Stickers are coins JA would buy, in addition to other dimensions of qualitative analysis. That is also one reason why CAC doesn't sticker some coins/series...they are not coins JA would want to buy.
But in any event, like grading, CAC is an opinion rendered on that day... and in addition to a visual examination of the coin, the reviewer needs to assess, "would I want this coin on my buy list?" If the answer is no, then it won't sticker.
i don't believe this is true...the reason being is that he will put an extra sticker on the coin that reads "wantlist" if he wants it.
It could be possible that a large pecentage of the early gold that Cac HAS SEEN is not worth buying a t the current market prices. If such coins were offered at a discount, well that may be something else.
A series like Liberty gold I would not classify as early gold but still has a sticker rate of less than 10%
Stickers are coins JA would buy, in addition to other dimensions of qualitative analysis. That is also one reason why CAC doesn't sticker some coins/series...they are not coins JA would want to buy.
But in any event, like grading, CAC is an opinion rendered on that day... and in addition to a visual examination of the coin, the reviewer needs to assess, "would I want this coin on my buy list?" If the answer is no, then it won't sticker.
i don't believe this is true...the reason being is that he will put an extra sticker on the coin that reads "wantlist" if he wants it.
Good statement. To me, CAC means if JA wants buy a coin and if it is CAC-ed, he would buy it sign-unseen. They are running Coinplex. If you can access it, you would know what I am saying.
I am confused... is that 10% of coins submitted to CAC? Or 10% of slabbed coins from the PCGS population?
Cheers, RickO
I trust my own judgement as to weather or not I like or want a coin. I actually cringe when I see a coin I want and it has a sticker because that usually means it will go higher than it should because of the CAC sheep bidding.
I wish CAC would go away.....it is ruining the hobby!
has anyone here had Mr. Albanese offer to buy a coin that CAC has stickered ?
Absolutely
Latin American Collection
All CAC is ......is an opinion of an opinion. The first opinion is either PCGS or ngc and then CAC's opinion of that opinion. It really is sooooooo silly and a waste. But some have bought into it and take it as gospel. To me it is meaningless. I have seen stickers on coins that I don't care for at all and I see a lot of coins without stickers that are real nice. But they may or may not have been to CAC.
I trust my own judgement as to weather or not I like or want a coin. I actually cringe when I see a coin I want and it has a sticker because that usually means it will go higher than it should because of the CAC sheep bidding.
I wish CAC would go away.....it is ruining the hobby!
Boy are you way off....CAC is saving the hobby, you just don't realize it possibly because of your mindset that your judgement is better than his. What is wrong with having a gentleman with nothing to gain along with 2 others gents that he has appointed review a coin and its grade for you. You think you have more experience than him? Which grading company did you start? How can you not feel it is well worth spending a pittance and purchase the best eyes int he business to check your coin for you? Obviously the market appreciates what I am saying by valuing them higher although since I am a purist that is not what motivates me to send my coins in. I am motivated by the fact that I know that I don't know everything and wouldn't mind having the country's leading expert who is also a disinterested third party reviewing my special pieces.
Alan, first I did not say that my judgement was better than JA, but I will say it is just as good. Afterall do you buy coins because JA likes them or because you like them???
I have PCGS grade my coins that I buy raw since they are the number one grading company. I don't always agree 100% with the outcome, but usually if I look at a coin long enough I can see their side...not always...but mostly. I just don't need another opinion of their opinion. I liked the coin or I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.
When I buy coins already graded I will buy any brand ..... sticker or no sticker if it is a coin I need and like. I will then get it into PCGS so it will go into my PCGS sets. If it had a sticker....it's gone now and I couldn't care less.
I am confused... is that 10% of coins submitted to CAC? Or 10% of slabbed coins from the PCGS population?
Cheers, RickO
I did some research and I found it to be less than 10% of pcgs coins. If you include ngc the sticker rate would even be lower
These days I disagree most of the time with he TPG's opinion because of the looseness and inconsistency and errors made by both companies. I am very disappointed with PCHS but even more so with NGC. IMHO NGC is so loose that I treat them like ANACS & ICG, whereas I can live with PCGS but feel they need the CAC to make them respected.
BTW I will buy a coin in any holder or no holder for that matter, send them into PCGS and then on to CAC. I believe I am an excellent grader at this point in my hobby career but I realize that no one else will believe I am an excellent grader and thus I send them off to PCGS and later to CAC. Unfortunately we need the two companies (PCGS & CAC) due to the problems with our hobby. I believe that JA is saving the hobby by inspecting a great deal of the coins ut there and putting his stamp of approval on those he sees passing and then putting his money where his mouth is. Would you really buy a PCGS or NGC coin sight unseen these days? I wouldn't even think of it, that is how bad things have gotten. But I would buy a CACed coin sight unseen. Have I ever done this, no , but I would if the situation arose. I also know my downside would be capped by Coinplex and that offers a decent amount of assurance that your purchase would not be a catastrophe. In my business I make sure I have catastrophe insurance.
Excellent post
I am confused... is that 10% of coins submitted to CAC? Or 10% of slabbed coins from the PCGS population?
Cheers, RickO
I did some research and I found it to be less than 10% of pcgs coins. If you include ngc the sticker rate would even be lower
The sticker rate of coins by type submitted to CAC would be a more informative metric.
I'm pretty sure JA is not the only person at CAC who evaluates and stickers coins.
My opinion...CAC is fine for what it is. I think CAC brings value to the hobby. I like to have CAC stickered coins in my collection because they add an extra layer to my security blanket. But CAC is just another opinion. It's still an art; not a science.
But wait...CAC stopped stickering colonials. Uh oh. What am I to do now? Should I just stop collecting colonials?
I don't remember the reasons CAC gave for their decision to stop stickering colonials...but PCGS still grades and slabs colonials and PCGS still backs up their grades on colonials. If PCGS can do it, why can't CAC?
All CAC is ......is an opinion of an opinion. The first opinion is either PCGS or ngc and then CAC's opinion of that opinion. It really is sooooooo silly and a waste. But some have bought into it and take it as gospel. To me it is meaningless. I have seen stickers on coins that I don't care for at all and I see a lot of coins without stickers that are real nice. But they may or may not have been to CAC.
I trust my own judgement as to weather or not I like or want a coin. I actually cringe when I see a coin I want and it has a sticker because that usually means it will go higher than it should because of the CAC sheep bidding.
I wish CAC would go away.....it is ruining the hobby!
Boy are you way off....CAC is saving the hobby, you just don't realize it possibly because of your mindset that your judgement is better than his. What is wrong with having a gentleman with nothing to gain along with 2 others gents that he has appointed review a coin and its grade for you. You think you have more experience than him? Which grading company did you start? How can you not feel it is well worth spending a pittance and purchase the best eyes int he business to check your coin for you? Obviously the market appreciates what I am saying by valuing them higher although since I am a purist that is not what motivates me to send my coins in. I am motivated by the fact that I know that I don't know everything and wouldn't mind having the country's leading expert who is also a disinterested third party reviewing my special pieces.
Alan, first I did not say that my judgement was better than JA, but I will say it is just as good. Afterall do you buy coins because JA likes them or because you like them???
I have PCGS grade my coins that I buy raw since they are the number one grading company. I don't always agree 100% with the outcome, but usually if I look at a coin long enough I can see their side...not always...but mostly. I just don't need another opinion of their opinion. I liked the coin or I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.
When I buy coins already graded I will buy any brand ..... sticker or no sticker if it is a coin I need and like. I will then get it into PCGS so it will go into my PCGS sets. If it had a sticker....it's gone now and I couldn't care less.
In this day and age I personal feel that both NGC & PCGS are so inconsistent that the only consistent eye is JA's. Do I want it in PCGS plastic, yes and do I want it also stickers , yes!
These days I disagree most of the time with he TPG's opinion because of the looseness and inconsistency and errors made by both companies. I am very disappointed with PCHS but even more so with NGC. IMHO NGC is so loose that I treat them like ANACS & ICG, whereas I can live with PCGS but feel they need the CAC to make them respected.
BTW I will buy a coin in any holder or no holder for that matter, send them into PCGS and then on to CAC. I believe I am an excellent grader at this point in my hobby career but I realize that no one else will believe I am an excellent grader and thus I send them off to PCGS and later to CAC. Unfortunately we need the two companies (PCGS & CAC) due to the problems with our hobby. I believe that JA is saving the hobby by inspecting a great deal of the coins ut there and putting his stamp of approval on those he sees passing and then putting his money where his mouth is. Would you really buy a PCGS or NGC coin sight unseen these days? I wouldn't even think of it, that is how bad things have gotten. But I would buy a CACed coin sight unseen. Have I ever done this, no , but I would if the situation arose. I also know my downside would be capped by Coinplex and that offers a decent amount of assurance that your purchase would not be a catastrophe. In my business I make sure I have catastrophe insurance.
Sorry Alan, from what I've seen, CAC is just as inconsistent as any of the TPGs. I never have, and never will buy a coin sight unseen. To me, it's no different from buying a coin from a Coin World ad circa 1968.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Enjoying all the comments. My focus though was why on a series like classic gold (say for instance Liberty gold) would the overall sticker rate be 10% or lower ? I think one of the responses that made the most sense was the reference to Doug winter's recent article. My hunch is the low sticker rate is indicative that JA does not believe most classic gold is solid for the grade as opposed to the coins he is stickering he considers top 10% of the grade
If I understood your earlier post correctly, you said that your 10% calculation meant 10% of all classic gold slabbed by PCGS had received a CAC sticker. So, what percentage of classic gold submitted to CAC receives a sticker?
As I noted previously, I think this would be a more informative metric.
Enjoying all the comments. My focus though was why on a series like classic gold (say for instance Liberty gold) would the overall sticker rate be 10% or lower ? I think one of the responses that made the most sense was the reference to Doug winter's recent article. My hunch is the low sticker rate is indicative that JA does not believe most classic gold is solid for the grade as opposed to the coins he is stickering he considers top 10% of the grade
If I understood your earlier post correctly, you said that your 10% calculation meant 10% of all classic gold slabbed by PCGS had received a CAC sticker. So, what percentage of classic gold submitted to CAC receives a sticker?
As I noted previously, I think this would be a more informative metric.
All we know is how many coins are stickered. There is no way to know what percentage of coins submitted to cac receives a sticker unless cac releases that information. What we do know is that between the services less than 10% of certain series get stickered.
No offense to OP but more and more lately a bunch of people keep asking what CAC really means. And you will get every kind of answer. Some will reply what they think it means to try and pump up their coins.
CAC has put on their website what a sticker means and a lot of folks keep twisting and turning it. CAC has a lot of control over prices. I would hope they are more consistent then the TPG's that many claim that they oversee.
After all this time I just don't see why people are not clear on all this. I've also heard just as many opinions on what a gold sticker means. It should be clear by now.
I guess it can mean whatever one wants it to mean. Probably not a negative though. Around here anyway.
Enjoying all the comments. My focus though was why on a series like classic gold (say for instance Liberty gold) would the overall sticker rate be 10% or lower ? I think one of the responses that made the most sense was the reference to Doug winter's recent article. My hunch is the low sticker rate is indicative that JA does not believe most classic gold is solid for the grade as opposed to the coins he is stickering he considers top 10% of the grade
If I understood your earlier post correctly, you said that your 10% calculation meant 10% of all classic gold slabbed by PCGS had received a CAC sticker. So, what percentage of classic gold submitted to CAC receives a sticker?
As I noted previously, I think this would be a more informative metric.
All we know is how many coins are stickered. There is no way to know what percentage of coins submitted to cac receives a sticker unless cac releases that information. What we do know is that between the services less than 10% of certain series get stickered.
OK. All that tells me is that some coins are harder to grade than others...and some coins are harder to grade consistently than others. Neither is a revelation.
Perhaps CAC is more comfortable grading certain series than they are others. They're not comfortable grading colonials, so they've stopped. It's reasonable to believe that they are not as comfortable grading some other coins.
When you are comparing the percentage of CAC stickered coins at the TPGs, how do more modern series compare? For example, what if you compare two series from the 20th Century with similar minting technology and methods?
has anyone here had Mr. Albanese offer to buy a coin that CAC has stickered ?
Sure. When I brought down a load of gold coins for review he was willing to buy every last one of them that stickered as he was trying to fill some large orders. I sold him several dozen freshly stickered coins worth around $50K as I recall. He was willing to buy 10X that amount....if I had them, which I didn't.
I was particularly impressed with the offer on my 1903 ogh $20 Lib PCGS MS65. Despite that coin having unsightly measles from dozens of carbon flecks, it stickered. I was sort of surprised. And the buy price was just the same as if the coin had zero spots. What it did have going for it was original orange-yellow luster with a nice deep patina. These days, a coin like that would get dipped in a heart beat (though not by CAC).
And from personal first hand knowledge of a submission of 100+ MS65 PCGS/NGC saints, only 6 stickered....5%. And the person that submitted them was fairly fussy, and rejected approx 65-75% of the coins offered them to get those. The same order had several dozen hand picked rattler and ogh $20 Libs/Saints in grades of MS61-MS64. Those stickered at a 40% rate with a couple of gold beans. That was back in November 2008. I would imagine it's even harder to get those same rates today.
CAC means the coin is acceptable for the grade to JA, something they would buy sight-unseen over the phone down the road. The advantage with CAC is finding a stickered coin that you like as well, and getting it for a price you are comfortable with. Nothing wrong with that. The sticker %'s vary by series, grade, and TPG. You can't make a bold statement with regards to "all coins" and sticker rate.
Looking back at some of the earlier comments WRT CAC and sight-unseen....Would you be happy with that speckled coin if you bought it sight-unseen?
I think it may be an example that proves CAC really hasn't solved the "sight-unseen" problem that this hobby has, had, and shall forever have!
(Edited because I mis-attributed some thoughts and comments to the wrong person....Communication is hard!
Normally these days I only bid on CAC stickered coins, and then usually only after I have someone view the coins for me. Pictures are nice to stir up my interest, but not enough for me to spend my money. IF I bid on a coin without the CAC sticker, it is highly doubtful that I will win the coin, bid too low.
All CAC is ......is an opinion of an opinion. The first opinion is either PCGS or ngc and then CAC's opinion of that opinion. It really is sooooooo silly and a waste. But some have bought into it and take it as gospel. To me it is meaningless. I have seen stickers on coins that I don't care for at all and I see a lot of coins without stickers that are real nice. But they may or may not have been to CAC.
I trust my own judgement as to weather or not I like or want a coin. I actually cringe when I see a coin I want and it has a sticker because that usually means it will go higher than it should because of the CAC sheep bidding.
I wish CAC would go away.....it is ruining the hobby!
+1
I was sent the images of the cases that were interpreted by this outside radiology group (mostly CTs and MRIs) along with the accompanying reports. I was in a position to "approve" their reports or disagree, after reviewing the images on my workstation. In medical imaging, as in coin grading, there is much in the way of nuance. There were many times that I agreed with the reports completely, and they got a "sticker". There were a lot of reports that I mostly agreed with the report, but did not like the way that they said it or the nuance created by the verbiage or there was a minor miss, but since I mostly agreed, they got a sticker, too.
There were only a small number of cases where I really disagreed completely (5%) or disagreed but it probably did not matter (5%), and these cases did not get my sticker. (Of course, I did not have a real sticker, but it suits the analogy.)
Why am I telling you this? It is very much different grading someone else's work than doing the work yourself in the first place. If you are realistic, you make allowances that reflect that you have less skin in the game and that if someone else is mostly right, than they are right. It also takes a lot less time and effort to grade someone else's work than it does to do the work yourself. When you do the work yourself, you are taking complete responsibility for it. When you are approving the work, your level of responsibility is not as great.
In a sense, I was the CAC for another radiology practice.
If you are considered the country's top radiologist, this is a good analogy. That said, if you are, sweet!
I'm pretty sure JA is not the only person at CAC who evaluates and stickers coins.
I believe that he sees them all and likely has the final say.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I know many have strong opinions about cac. This question is less about subjective opinions and more about the actual numbers. There are certain series where the sticker rate is low. For instance, some gold series the sticker rate is below 10% over a large sample of coins. So if a series has a sticker rate of 8% (out of thousands and thousands of graded coins) that would seem to suggest that cac is only stickering A coins as opposed to A and B coins. The other inference could be that within the series of gold the large majority are over graded and only 10% or so or solid for the grade. Curious of others thoughts. Thanks
So rather than ask others their thoughts, where the responses will be speculative (because CAC has never published grading standards), and widespread (because everybody has an opinion), why not send an e-mail to CAC and directly ask them your question.
I know many have strong opinions about cac. This question is less about subjective opinions and more about the actual numbers. There are certain series where the sticker rate is low. For instance, some gold series the sticker rate is below 10% over a large sample of coins. So if a series has a sticker rate of 8% (out of thousands and thousands of graded coins) that would seem to suggest that cac is only stickering A coins as opposed to A and B coins. The other inference could be that within the series of gold the large majority are over graded and only 10% or so or solid for the grade. Curious of others thoughts. Thanks
So rather than ask others their thoughts, where the responses will be speculative (because CAC has never published grading standards), and widespread (because everybody has an opinion), why not send an e-mail to CAC and directly ask them your question.
There are a few reasons I posted my OP on here. But the main reason is I value the opinions and expertise of the members on the forum and looked forward to hearing their opinions. I have not been disappointed
[Looking back at some of the earlier comments WRT CAC and sight-unseen....Would you be happy with that speckled coin if you bought it sight-unseen?
I think it may be an example that proves CAC really hasn't solved the "sight-unseen" problem that this hobby has, had, and shall forever have!
Actually, I bought that coin sight-seen as I did like the originality it had. Yes, I'd probably have been disappointed if that was sent to me as a CAC-certified gem $20 Lib considering they carry a 30% premium in MS65. With gold, spots tend to come with original surfaces.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I look at my 1908-O with its green bean as an example AU 55 Barber dime that hasn't been messed and looks like it's supposed to look.
CAC is a useful tool for the numismatist if you let it be.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
If I ever need to sell this coin,I would probably go straight to JA with it rather than be insulted by what I'm hearing from one low-balling dealer after another.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
CAC hasn't solved the sight-unseen problem,and never will, anymore than the TPG's have solved the grading problem and ever will.
I can't imagine buying a coin without seeing it. Why would anyone do that?
If in buying I care so little about what the coin looks like that I don't need to see it , I'm not a collector.
Name any TPG or any other numismatic organization that will absolutely buy your properly graded coins from you at fair prices or at Coinplex prices depending on the coin of course.
And after you answer that, tell me how hugely important is that for a hobby and what does that say about putting your money where your sticka is?
Lets you tell the lowballers where to sticka da money.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
To be fair folks should know about this. I never see anything posted about this. Just that they put their money where there mouth is. Which is too general of a statement. IMO
Anyway, just curious.
Thanks in advance.
So will CAC make one of those "sight unseen" bids on common Morgans with monster toning and stickers that blow everybody's mind out there, and pay market prices? How bout those rare varieties on coins? Will they pay "sight unseen" premiums for R-6 and R-7 Bust halves that have stickers?
To be fair folks should know about this. I never see anything posted about this. Just that they put their money where there mouth is. Which is too general of a statement. IMO
Anyway, just curious.
Thanks in advance.
Of course they aren't required to make offers on common graded "toners" or even, not so well known rare varieties. Both those categories probably make up less than 1-2% of their entire markets. CAC is lending a grading opinion based on the assigned TPG grade....not the value of remarkable toning. I suspect they'll make a fair offer for a major variety like an 1854-0 "huge O" seated quarter, or a 3 legged 1937-d buff....but I would not expect them to be ready to pay big bucks for an 1841-0 small O transitional seated dime or 10X to 50X premium for some monster toned 1880-s Morgan. Those markets are better left to the specialists and market makers in those areas. The TPG's generally market grade those coins, though it's the specialists who determine what they're worth.
The TPG's don't buy coins in any respect. Why do we expect a 100% batting/buying average from CAC? Try taking back all the coins you bought from your favorite "boutique" coin dealers in the past 8 years and see how many of those coins you get offered fair value on....including the toners, rare varieties, and near top pop coins with weakish demand. I suspect most people around here would be disappointed.
And the TPG's never claim to make a market in coins they grade. I never said I expect them to buy everything.... your words.
It's just I always see people on here saying they buy what they sticker at fair prices. They choose which ones to make a fair offer. Nothing wrong with that. Why do we need to go back and forth over this?
Some people might buy a common date toner for 5K with a sticker. Anything wrong with letting them know don't expect anybody to bail you out, as well as CAC.
I agree. But again, what is wrong with what I wrote? Any bad information? Why can't someone say some reality once in a while without being jumped on and comparing to the other TPG's. CAC is their own business, why keep comparing when someone doesn't march in step with what you want? I ain't coming back to this either. Unless someone else wants to come at me.
I believe in all information should be disclosed, not just the good stuff.
And BTW, I don't have a favorite"boutique coin dealer." And I know how the market works. I'm sorry sir but you ain't the only one that has experience in it.