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Nefarious methods of driving up coin prices

braddickbraddick Posts: 22,943 ✭✭✭✭✭
Have there been methods in the past that have facilitated the false driving up of coin prices?
I'd think, for example, if a dealer/collector owned a dozen of something and wanted to sell at the highest price he may list the coin at those high prices and subsequently pull the item as "sold", thus creating a higher pricetag.

I'd think listing one in a famous national auction and bidding (along with other(s)) to drive the price up to a false record level and then listing another would also give the impression to collectors the coin has been legitimately driven to a higher level.

Anyone with first or second-hand experience with this?
Even anecdotical 'evidence' would be enjoyable to read.

peacockcoins

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,880 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I recall the case of a Civil War merchant's token that was, for decades, considered to be very rare. In the 1980's a very well known dealer (who is still very much active today) started advertising the token at quite high prices even though his firm knew very well that the hoard they had purchased would eventually make this nothing more than another common token. I seem to recall that their advertising referred to the item by it's previously assigned rarity number. The word got out fairly quickly that this was a hoard item so I doubt if many people bought one at the inflated price.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,943 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ^
    I wonder too if the promotion of the "Speared Bison" or even the "Missing P" 1989 quarter were somehow involved in overhyping.

    peacockcoins

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To think it doesn't happen in creative ways in coins to gain an advantage would be naive. Whether it's Wholefoods charging more on weights and measure issues, VW falsifying emmisions standards or Madoff running a Ponzi scheme where there is money to be made there will be mischief. Gaming the system is an art form unfortunately



    mark
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: braddick

    ^

    I wonder too if the promotion of the "Speared Bison" or even the "Missing P" 1989 quarter were somehow involved in overhyping.







    The "Speared Bison" was definitely overhyped...here on the boards even and possibly other areas.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: 291fifth

    I recall the case of a Civil War merchant's token that was, for decades, considered to be very rare. In the 1980's a very well known dealer (who is still very much active today) started advertising the token at quite high prices even though his firm knew very well that the hoard they had purchased would eventually make this nothing more than another common token. I seem to recall that their advertising referred to the item by it's previously assigned rarity number. The word got out fairly quickly that this was a hoard item so I doubt if many people bought one at the inflated price.




    That unethical behavior would make the dealer a persona non grata to me and probably many others.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is human nature to gain as much profit as possible from a transaction. That being said, enter the devious mind and there will be schemes hatched to improve the margin of profit.

    The raison d'etre for the phrase 'Caveat emptor'.....Cheers, RickO
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think about that every time I observe the U.S. Mint producing another modern "wonder" coin. Shades of the Gold JFK.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    US Mint "products" are a pox on our hobby.



    Just a worthless drain of potential numismatic interest, involvement, and money.



  • pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: topstuf
    US Mint "products" are a pox on our hobby.

    Just a worthless drain of potential numismatic interest, involvement, and money.



    Aren't most of which is discussed on this forum US Mint "products"?
    Paul
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,406 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw an auction house, that no longer exists, run a phony auction on some items that they later offered on a retail basis. The purpose of the auction, which was held at 10 AM on a Saturday, at a venue that was not connected to a coin show, was to establish "a public auction price" for those items which was way over the previous levels. There are less than 10 people in the room, there were no phone bids, and this was well before the Internet existed. The bids on the floor jumped from something like $400 to $5,000 or more, and the same bidder did this repeatedly for well over half the items in the sale. People in the front of room were bidding, and this guy would yell "$5,000!" from back repeatedly, which more than 10 times the bid on the floor.

    Later this same firm had retail promotion for the same sort of items, if not the same items, at strong prices.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: pmac

    Originally posted by: topstuf

    US Mint "products" are a pox on our hobby.



    Just a worthless drain of potential numismatic interest, involvement, and money.







    Aren't most of which is discussed on this forum US Mint "products"?




    Not to my thinking.

    I consider COINS to be a medium of exchange and a marker for your wealth.



    I think that's one of the reasons that mint state COINS are more popular than proofs which are ....sorta.... a product.



    image
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,406 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think that's one of the reasons that mint state COINS are more popular than proofs which are ....sorta.... a product.


    I understand you comment about the collector desirability for pieces that were minted for commerce as opposed to coin cabinets. Still I like nicely preserved Proofs because they often provide a better impression of the a coin's design. This is important to me as a type collector. Another bonus is that, in recent years, Proofs have tended to sell for less than their Mint State counterparts.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    See "Advertisement" for details.
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The infamous "well managed promotions" of the 1980s and 1990s fall into this category. The first step was for a large dealer to buy up any and all specimens of a certain coin (say 1884-S dollars in XF-AU, or slider Unc. gold Type) at prices that are slightly better than greysheet. After the supply started to dry up, the silver coins went in the dip jar so they were shiny & white. Finally, dipped XF-AU coins were sold as "Borderline Unc." and slider AU58 coins were sold as "Choice BU" in a popular numismatic periodical, with asking prices similar to what a PCGS graded coin might bring. Not only did the coins get sold at inflated prices, but the supply of such coins with original skin was decimated, driving up prices. The result of this practice is that condition rarity coins like 1884-S dollars in AU+ actually ARE rare now, and cost a lot of money if they are wholesome.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,880 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I recall an "auction" of Hard Times Tokens that included an error piece that had no established value. The token "sold" for what was then an astronomical price for a Hard Times Token. (This was during the 1980s.) It didn't take long for some of the specialists in the field to smell a rat and the word got out that the auction was a sham that was apparently designed to establish a very high price for the piece. The resulting publicity apparently hurt the reputation of the auction house. The auction house ceased operation a few years later in the early 1990s.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭



    First strike
  • mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anything that costs more than I want to pay has been manipulated.

    Anything that I need to sell, that is not high enough IMHO, needs to be manipulated up to allow me to sell.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,411 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For the longest time, you could not find any business strike MS 66 Liberty Nickels. They weren't expensive, but you couldn't find any of them. Around the late 1990s, I think 25 of them showed up at a Superior Coin auction, and bidders paid between 2 and 4 times as much as the current pricing for these items.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • TigersFan2TigersFan2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭
    Watch the Rick Tomaska and Barry Chappell (and other) shows on the shopping networks and you'll witness half-truths and hype to sell coins way above their market values.
    I love the 3 P's: PB&J, PBR and PCGS.

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