<< <i>This thread made me decide to relist my two 10 oz. Englehard gold bars over on BST, but at somewhat less than 130 times melt! >>
Very nice bars Capt... The lower the melt value the higher the premium, interesting how it works...lol >>
Thanks. These were part of that 3,800 troy ounce gold bar collection we brokered for the collector a few years ago. I bought these for myself and one other item I intend to write about for The Numismatist.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
What did it cost the seller for this fruitless exercise? I assume he had to at least pay listing fees.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It shows there's at leat 2 people willing to pay close to $6k. >>
Unless I knew who the bidders were I don't necessarily agree. It may have been more theater than auction.
My instinct is that these pieces are worth around $3,000. >>
The seller could have placed an extremely high reserve on this bar and then had a couple of friends (shills) run up the price. When it next appears I'm sure he'll reference this auction to describe this bars value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"Shilling" is not just a 12 pence coin from Jolly Olde England!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner? >>
We don't unless collectors following or bidding on this auction later hear that a fellow collector has purchased this item. >>
The problem with that is coin collectors (and I assume rare bar collectors) are a secretive bunch due to security concerns. Any predictions what it will sell for assuming that it actually sells?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't care for the way the seller went about offering it and wont be bidding even if it goes "cheap".
Running it with an unattainable reserve, only to then offer it with no reseve starting at .99 might seem like a smart advertising campaign to some. To me, it screams shill bidding did and will happen. That is not the way to go about forming an actual current market value.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>I don't care for the way the seller went about offering it and wont be bidding even if it goes "cheap".
Running it with an unattainable reserve, only to then offer it with no reseve starting at .99 might seem like a smart advertising campaign to some. To me, it screams shill bidding did and will happen. That is not the way to go about forming an actual current market value. >>
Agreed, even at best this is a smarmy offering, IMO.
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner? >>
We don't unless collectors following or bidding on this auction later hear that a fellow collector has purchased this item. >>
The problem with that is coin collectors (and I assume rare bar collectors) are a secretive bunch due to security concerns. Any predictions what it will sell for assuming that it actually sells? >>
Good question PerryHall. Two Engelhard collectors in this thread, who apparently don't own an example of the 2 oz, said they were in the market around $3,000. I have opined that I thought $3,000 is realistic.
That said I have been wrong before when I viewed $600 to be the market price for any 4 oz example. Later auctions proved me wrong. Exceptional 4 oz examples can still sell for around $2,000. Thus my perception of value for any 2 oz example may be unrealistic. My hope is for an actual sale where this piece goes to an Engelhard collector.
Do rare silver bars such as this one ever get sold in major coin auctions? Such a venue would likely be a legitimate source of pricing information.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Do rare silver bars such as this one ever get sold in major coin auctions? Such a venue would likely be a legitimate source of pricing information. >>
Not to my knowledge regarding major auctions. An Engelhard 1939 platinum World's Fair piece and a 1969 British Hallmark 4 bar set have been sold in Heritage auctions.
The first 2 oz Engelhard example surfaced in 2011; a second was posted on this forum when it was discovered in early 2012. I believe both are imaged at allengelhard.
I believe this will be a legitimate sale. High reserve on initial auction does appear to have been for price discovery. I think our seller changed his tune when the numbers ran up, then reduced reserve which suggests an attempt to actually sell the bar. Can't blame the guy at $5k.
Discussion… estimated total mintage <925 pieces on all 4oz examples and <975 for all 7oz including extruded. I don't believe price point 3-5k on this 2oz is unrealistic when considering established values of other odd weight class. I also don't doubt the apparent interest in this piece or that there are real collectors gunning for it. I am not aware of another opportunity to own such as piece by means of public auction.
Keep in mind that while there may be a handful of 'one known examples' of even 5oz poured landscape bars - they remain 1 of approximately 25k somewhat similar 5oz pieces. Even if serial number range on known examples was not shared with other production pieces, this 2oz bar we have at auction remains just 1 of 50 (possibly 250 max) bars total.
So you have estimated scarcity ratio 4 to 1 vs more common 4oz/7oz bar valuation ($1500-$2k maybe) which suggests that a price of $3k or even north of that is not unreasonable for such a piece. I believe this is the appeal of odd weight class Engelhard bars.
Will be interested to watch this one play out.
Silver Baron, I have no cause to question your ownership of a 2oz example but will feel more comfortable when a picture is presented. Hope you do find the time but of course understand the consideration of digging a particular example out from storage.
I dont see any problem with how this seller went about the sale. This is so rare and there is such little data on previous sales that it is impossible to know what the current market value is on this piece. I'm sure the seller was only willing to sell it if he knew he would get at least a certain amount for it. With us a rare item, it is just not smart to throw it up as a .99 cent no reserve auction and hope for the best. It is also not smart to set a BIN price because there is a good chance you'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. I think the seller did this to 1) draw attention to the item and 2) determine if it would go above his minimum selling price. I'd guess he was happy with where that ended up and decided it was time to sell.
You guys don't believe it was shilled up to nearly double what the "estimated value" is? Really? Only to then relist it at .99? What was stopping the seller from accepting $5500 on a bar estimated to be $3000? What makes one think it wont be artificially pumped again esp. when this particular piece is really only for a few people?
Call me paranoid, but I think they're all legit questions. Because of not taking nearly double what the concencus value is and relist it starting at .99 it's all suspect to me. What is the real motive behind going about it the way it was initially presented? That's the minimum $3000 question imo.
edited to say: I hope the seller gets what the true current market value is. He's well known in the community of Engelhard and has contribued enormous knowledge. I just don't agree with the way it's trying to establish a value. My opinion and I'm entitled to it, as is everyone else on what they suspect the motive is. I have mine, but i'll keep it to myself publicly
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Personally I feel that the initial offering was made to either test the high end of what ebayers were willing to bid and/or in hopes of fielding an off-ebay offer for moon money. This relist might come back to bite him as many previous bidders might not participate, thinking something hinky is going on. I know my radar pings when I see something immediately listed after a no-sale with a high reserve. I don't like people who play games. Either sell it or don't; I don't like wasting my time with someone who's fishing for the last buck.
<< <i>You guys don't believe it was shilled up to nearly double what the "estimated value" is? Really? Only to then relist it at .99? What was stopping the seller from accepting $5500 on a bar estimated to be $3000? What makes one think it wont be artificially pumped again esp. when this particular piece is really only for a few people?
Call me paranoid, but I think they're all legit questions. Because of not taking nearly double what the concencus value is and relist it starting at .99 it's all suspect to me. What is the real motive behind going about it the way it was initially presented? That's the minimum $3000 question imo. >>
Estimated value of $3000? Consensus? By who? People here on this forum? The truth is no one really knows what this bar is worth. If you disagree, please show me what sales data points you are using to form this estimated value of $3000.
<< <i>You guys don't believe it was shilled up to nearly double what the "estimated value" is? Really? Only to then relist it at .99? What was stopping the seller from accepting $5500 on a bar estimated to be $3000? What makes one think it wont be artificially pumped again esp. when this particular piece is really only for a few people?
Call me paranoid, but I think they're all legit questions. Because of not taking nearly double what the concencus value is and relist it starting at .99 it's all suspect to me. What is the real motive behind going about it the way it was initially presented? That's the minimum $3000 question imo. >>
Estimated value of $3000? Consensus? By who? People here on this forum? The truth is no one really knows what this bar is worth. If you disagree, please show me what sales data points you are using to form this estimated value of $3000. >>
No kidding - posters on this thread have been offering their personal opinions. Three posters on this thread gave their opinion that the piece in question was worth about $3,000. Two said they were prepared to pay $3,000 for a 2 oz Engelhard silver example. To them at least the item is worth what they are willing to pay. Someone else may by the end of the auction decide the item is worth more to them.
Without hard data from sales one opinion is worth just about as much as another opinion. That is after all the nature of opinions.
You are welcome to your own opinion if you wish to weigh in prior to the end of the current auction.
My opinion will likely shift if the current example on ebay actually sells.
<< <i>I dont see any problem with how this seller went about the sale. This is so rare and there is such little data on previous sales that it is impossible to know what the current market value is on this piece. I'm sure the seller was only willing to sell it if he knew he would get at least a certain amount for it. With us a rare item, it is just not smart to throw it up as a .99 cent no reserve auction and hope for the best. It is also not smart to set a BIN price because there is a good chance you'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. I think the seller did this to 1) draw attention to the item and 2) determine if it would go above his minimum selling price. I'd guess he was happy with where that ended up and decided it was time to sell.
My guess is $4,000 for the final price. >>
Mmm...so much for your theory...
Seller relisted the bar...starting at $.99 w/o a reserve ... (If it looks, smells and walks like a duck....I'm with the shilled bid group)
<< <i>I dont see any problem with how this seller went about the sale. This is so rare and there is such little data on previous sales that it is impossible to know what the current market value is on this piece. I'm sure the seller was only willing to sell it if he knew he would get at least a certain amount for it. With us a rare item, it is just not smart to throw it up as a .99 cent no reserve auction and hope for the best. It is also not smart to set a BIN price because there is a good chance you'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. I think the seller did this to 1) draw attention to the item and 2) determine if it would go above his minimum selling price. I'd guess he was happy with where that ended up and decided it was time to sell.
My guess is $4,000 for the final price. >>
Mmm...so much for your theory...
Seller relisted the bar...starting at $.99 w/o a reserve ... (If it looks, smells and walks like a duck....I'm with the shilled bid group)
<< <i> ******* I do have a standing reward of $10,000 for the records of Engelhard's small PM production runs thru 1987. ******
Keep on Stack'n!! >>
I like your style, SB. And in the spirit of your offering, here is my public good faith offer of $200 for any authentic pictures of a never before seen 2oz Engelhard silver bar. Current known serial numbers are 353059, 353229 and 353231 so of course they do not count. If I feel the photo appears suspect, the community decides as a whole.
Perhaps POM or raw will be good enough to broker the deal so as to retain anonymity.
Appears this no reserve has the attention of a few new bidders. $2k or $3k or $4K - what difference does it make? We know this is an established seller with solid position in our community. IMO hasn't the time or desire to rig an auction up by another $1k for giggles. Besides, he runs a mint
I'll raise my offer to $3300 for one of those known serial numbers...............Operators standing by.
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Rich, I love you man and maybe you're right. Everything might just be a conspiracy
Thanks dolo, right back at cha. Sorry, it's just in my nature to suspect it all, not the best character trait at times, but the few times i'm right makes up for it LOL, at least to me it does.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>Rich, I love you man and maybe you're right. Everything might just be a conspiracy
Thanks dolo, right back at cha. Sorry, it's just in my nature to suspect it all, not the best character trait at times, but the few times i'm right makes up for it LOL, at least to me it does. >>
I'm very much the same way but have yet to be correct about any of it
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
i saw the price earlier but wanted to leave this thread on the second page. I'm not too sure about finding a legitimate level. At a glance, seems that most if not all of the most recent major bidders have some "closeness" with the seller. Shilling going on? Although I haven't look since much earlier today. Im leaning towards this is the seller trying to establish his own price. Im not saying whether its worth the price or not....just aint smellin right..
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread made me decide to relist my two 10 oz. Englehard gold bars over on BST, but at somewhat less than 130 times melt! >>
Very nice bars Capt... The lower the melt value the higher the premium, interesting how it works...lol >>
Thanks. These were part of that 3,800 troy ounce gold bar collection we brokered for the collector a few years ago. I bought these for myself and one other item I intend to write about for The Numismatist.
TD
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
All flash as suspected by most. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. It shows there's at leat 2 people willing to pay close to $6k.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What did it cost the seller for this fruitless exercise? I assume he had to at least pay listing fees. >>
Listing fees are free for most seller...so it was a good marketing strategy...at hardly any cost to him.
<< <i>No sale.
It shows there's at leat 2 people willing to pay close to $6k. >>
Unless I knew who the bidders were I don't necessarily agree. It may have been more theater than auction.
My instinct is that these pieces are worth around $3,000.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>
<< <i>No sale.
It shows there's at leat 2 people willing to pay close to $6k. >>
Unless I knew who the bidders were I don't necessarily agree. It may have been more theater than auction.
My instinct is that these pieces are worth around $3,000. >>
The seller could have placed an extremely high reserve on this bar and then had a couple of friends (shills) run up the price. When it next appears I'm sure he'll reference this auction to describe this bars value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What did it cost the seller for this fruitless exercise? I assume he had to at least pay listing fees. >>
IIRC, listing with a reserve costs a flat fee of $2.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ounce-Engelhard-Silver-Old-Pour-Bar-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Any-Engelhard-Ever-Made-/271792160157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48133d9d
<< <i>This bar is back on the market again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ounce-Engelhard-Silver-Old-Pour-Bar-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Any-Engelhard-Ever-Made-/271792160157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48133d9d >>
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
link to it
<< <i>
<< <i>This bar is back on the market again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ounce-Engelhard-Silver-Old-Pour-Bar-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Any-Engelhard-Ever-Made-/271792160157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48133d9d >>
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This bar is back on the market again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ounce-Engelhard-Silver-Old-Pour-Bar-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Any-Engelhard-Ever-Made-/271792160157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48133d9d >>
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner?
We don't unless collectors following or bidding on this auction later hear that a fellow collector has purchased this item.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This bar is back on the market again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ounce-Engelhard-Silver-Old-Pour-Bar-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Any-Engelhard-Ever-Made-/271792160157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48133d9d >>
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner?
We don't unless collectors following or bidding on this auction later hear that a fellow collector has purchased this item. >>
The problem with that is coin collectors (and I assume rare bar collectors) are a secretive bunch due to security concerns. Any predictions what it will sell for assuming that it actually sells?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Running it with an unattainable reserve, only to then offer it with no reseve starting at .99 might seem like a smart advertising campaign to some. To me, it screams shill bidding did and will happen. That is not the way to go about forming an actual current market value.
<< <i>I don't care for the way the seller went about offering it and wont be bidding even if it goes "cheap".
Running it with an unattainable reserve, only to then offer it with no reseve starting at .99 might seem like a smart advertising campaign to some. To me, it screams shill bidding did and will happen. That is not the way to go about forming an actual current market value. >>
Agreed, even at best this is a smarmy offering, IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This bar is back on the market again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ounce-Engelhard-Silver-Old-Pour-Bar-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Any-Engelhard-Ever-Made-/271792160157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48133d9d >>
No reserve this time. Hopefully its sale will illustrate the market value of such pieces. >>
How will we know if it really sells rather than being run up by a shill and then bought back by the owner?
We don't unless collectors following or bidding on this auction later hear that a fellow collector has purchased this item. >>
The problem with that is coin collectors (and I assume rare bar collectors) are a secretive bunch due to security concerns. Any predictions what it will sell for assuming that it actually sells? >>
Good question PerryHall. Two Engelhard collectors in this thread, who apparently don't own an example of the 2 oz, said they were in the market around $3,000. I have opined that I thought $3,000 is realistic.
That said I have been wrong before when I viewed $600 to be the market price for any 4 oz example. Later auctions proved me wrong. Exceptional 4 oz examples can still sell for around $2,000. Thus my perception of value for any 2 oz example may be unrealistic. My hope is for an actual sale where this piece goes to an Engelhard collector.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Do rare silver bars such as this one ever get sold in major coin auctions? Such a venue would likely be a legitimate source of pricing information. >>
Not to my knowledge regarding major auctions. An Engelhard 1939 platinum World's Fair piece and a 1969 British Hallmark 4 bar set have been sold in Heritage auctions.
The first 2 oz Engelhard example surfaced in 2011; a second was posted on this forum when it was discovered in early 2012. I believe both are imaged at allengelhard.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Discussion… estimated total mintage <925 pieces on all 4oz examples and <975 for all 7oz including extruded. I don't believe price point 3-5k on this 2oz is unrealistic when considering established values of other odd weight class. I also don't doubt the apparent interest in this piece or that there are real collectors gunning for it. I am not aware of another opportunity to own such as piece by means of public auction.
Keep in mind that while there may be a handful of 'one known examples' of even 5oz poured landscape bars - they remain 1 of approximately 25k somewhat similar 5oz pieces. Even if serial number range on known examples was not shared with other production pieces, this 2oz bar we have at auction remains just 1 of 50 (possibly 250 max) bars total.
So you have estimated scarcity ratio 4 to 1 vs more common 4oz/7oz bar valuation ($1500-$2k maybe) which suggests that a price of $3k or even north of that is not unreasonable for such a piece. I believe this is the appeal of odd weight class Engelhard bars.
Will be interested to watch this one play out.
Silver Baron, I have no cause to question your ownership of a 2oz example but will feel more comfortable when a picture is presented. Hope you do find the time but of course understand the consideration of digging a particular example out from storage.
Cheers all.
My guess is $4,000 for the final price.
Only to then relist it at .99? What was stopping the seller from accepting $5500 on a bar estimated to be $3000?
What makes one think it wont be artificially pumped again esp. when this particular piece is really only for a few people?
Call me paranoid, but I think they're all legit questions. Because of not taking nearly double what the concencus value is and relist it starting at .99 it's all suspect to me. What is the real motive behind going about it the way it was initially presented? That's the minimum $3000 question imo.
edited to say:
I hope the seller gets what the true current market value is. He's well known in the community of Engelhard and has contribued enormous knowledge. I just don't agree with the way it's trying to establish a value. My opinion and I'm entitled to it, as is everyone else on what they suspect the motive is. I have mine, but i'll keep it to myself publicly
This relist might come back to bite him as many previous bidders might not participate, thinking something hinky is going on. I know my radar pings when I see something immediately listed after a no-sale with a high reserve.
I don't like people who play games. Either sell it or don't; I don't like wasting my time with someone who's fishing for the last buck.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>You guys don't believe it was shilled up to nearly double what the "estimated value" is? Really?
Only to then relist it at .99? What was stopping the seller from accepting $5500 on a bar estimated to be $3000?
What makes one think it wont be artificially pumped again esp. when this particular piece is really only for a few people?
Call me paranoid, but I think they're all legit questions. Because of not taking nearly double what the concencus value is and relist it starting at .99 it's all suspect to me. What is the real motive behind going about it the way it was initially presented? That's the minimum $3000 question imo.
>>
Estimated value of $3000? Consensus? By who? People here on this forum? The truth is no one really knows what this bar is worth. If you disagree, please show me what sales data points you are using to form this estimated value of $3000.
<< <i>
<< <i>You guys don't believe it was shilled up to nearly double what the "estimated value" is? Really?
Only to then relist it at .99? What was stopping the seller from accepting $5500 on a bar estimated to be $3000?
What makes one think it wont be artificially pumped again esp. when this particular piece is really only for a few people?
Call me paranoid, but I think they're all legit questions. Because of not taking nearly double what the concencus value is and relist it starting at .99 it's all suspect to me. What is the real motive behind going about it the way it was initially presented? That's the minimum $3000 question imo.
>>
Estimated value of $3000? Consensus? By who? People here on this forum? The truth is no one really knows what this bar is worth. If you disagree, please show me what sales data points you are using to form this estimated value of $3000. >>
No kidding - posters on this thread have been offering their personal opinions. Three posters on this thread gave their opinion that the piece in question was worth about $3,000. Two said they were prepared to pay $3,000 for a 2 oz Engelhard silver example. To them at least the item is worth what they are willing to pay. Someone else may by the end of the auction decide the item is worth more to them.
Without hard data from sales one opinion is worth just about as much as another opinion. That is after all the nature of opinions.
You are welcome to your own opinion if you wish to weigh in prior to the end of the current auction.
My opinion will likely shift if the current example on ebay actually sells.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>Stick to pennies joefro... >>
I can't even begin to tell you how much I value your well-thought out and eloquent opinions, which you so generously offer to us on a regular basis.
<< <i>I dont see any problem with how this seller went about the sale. This is so rare and there is such little data on previous sales that it is impossible to know what the current market value is on this piece. I'm sure the seller was only willing to sell it if he knew he would get at least a certain amount for it. With us a rare item, it is just not smart to throw it up as a .99 cent no reserve auction and hope for the best. It is also not smart to set a BIN price because there is a good chance you'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. I think the seller did this to 1) draw attention to the item and 2) determine if it would go above his minimum selling price. I'd guess he was happy with where that ended up and decided it was time to sell.
My guess is $4,000 for the final price. >>
Mmm...so much for your theory...
Seller relisted the bar...starting at $.99 w/o a reserve ...
(If it looks, smells and walks like a duck....I'm with the shilled bid group)
relisted
<< <i>
<< <i>I dont see any problem with how this seller went about the sale. This is so rare and there is such little data on previous sales that it is impossible to know what the current market value is on this piece. I'm sure the seller was only willing to sell it if he knew he would get at least a certain amount for it. With us a rare item, it is just not smart to throw it up as a .99 cent no reserve auction and hope for the best. It is also not smart to set a BIN price because there is a good chance you'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. I think the seller did this to 1) draw attention to the item and 2) determine if it would go above his minimum selling price. I'd guess he was happy with where that ended up and decided it was time to sell.
My guess is $4,000 for the final price. >>
Mmm...so much for your theory...
Seller relisted the bar...starting at $.99 w/o a reserve ...
(If it looks, smells and walks like a duck....I'm with the shilled bid group)
relisted >>
Actually, I posted that already knowing it had been relisted at .99 (since that has already been mentioned in this thread).
Mine will too with the caveat of no obvious tampering and someone with a fb score of at least 500 winning.
Let's see if he wins.
<< <i> ******* I do have a standing reward of $10,000 for the records of Engelhard's small PM production runs thru 1987. ******
Keep on Stack'n!! >>
I like your style, SB. And in the spirit of your offering, here is my public good faith offer of $200 for any authentic pictures of a never before seen 2oz Engelhard silver bar. Current known serial numbers are 353059, 353229 and 353231 so of course they do not count. If I feel the photo appears suspect, the community decides as a whole.
Perhaps POM or raw will be good enough to broker the deal so as to retain anonymity.
Appears this no reserve has the attention of a few new bidders. $2k or $3k or $4K - what difference does it make? We know this is an established seller with solid position in our community. IMO hasn't the time or desire to rig an auction up by another $1k for giggles. Besides, he runs a mint
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I guess we know the answer to the shill question >>
It's a toss up between him and this bidder
possible shill
Thanks dolo, right back at cha. Sorry, it's just in my nature to suspect it all, not the best character trait at times, but the few times i'm right makes up for it LOL, at least to me it does.
<< <i>Rich, I love you man and maybe you're right. Everything might just be a conspiracy
Thanks dolo, right back at cha. Sorry, it's just in my nature to suspect it all, not the best character trait at times, but the few times i'm right makes up for it LOL, at least to me it does. >>
I'm very much the same way but have yet to be correct about any of it
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>$4065 with 2+ days to go!? Holy crap Batman! >>
Indeed POM. I now believe we are seeing price discovery in action.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
poof
Im leaning towards this is the seller trying to establish his own price. Im not saying whether its worth the price or not....just aint smellin right..
<< <i>At a glance, seems that most if not all of the most recent major bidders have some "closeness" with the seller. >>
Care to expand on that with some legitimate details as to how you correlated these 'recent major bidders'?