<< <i>I think it mighta been sent to psa and I doubt very seriously they will be returning it. pretty sure that's what happened to the plank card as well.
and to whoever said they could spot easily the font was off, I'm gonna go w. the rest of the board and call bs. that was one d@mn good (fake) flip, period.
and if the card was as easily noticeable in hand that it was a crack/reinsert etc, then yes rick should be held accountable. I'm no expert, but I can tell the fake holders or even a cracked real holder w/ even the best glue job.
the quality of the flip and the barcode scanning legit are my main concerns >>
+1 to all of this.
I am pretty good at spotting fake flips and fake cards, and this would have fooled me 9 times out of 10. This is a freaking amazing forgery.
<< <i>What happens to this card now that the auction is pulled? I would hope it gets destroyed, but suspect it just gets sent back to the consignee to try again elsewhere. >>
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. >>
What do you think should happen to it?
As much as we'd like to see the card destroyed, I really doubt Rick has the authority to do this. Legally, he probably has to return it. >>
Personally, I think it should be turned over to the FBI along with the consignee's info. They've taken an interest in sports collectibles forgeries in the past and I'm sure could track down the source of this.
If it's not removed from circulations somehow, we're just going to see more of these and they're obviously getting scary good at faking the slabs. >>
The FBI is already looking into the guy making these cards.
<< <i>The card is real, and if untrimmed is still a $1000+ card if it was a PSA 9. You don't destroy a card like that just because it's in a fake slab.
Lee >>
Lee - sorry I was unclear. I was referencing the slab the card resided in, not the card itself.
<< <i>What happens to this card now that the auction is pulled? I would hope it gets destroyed, but suspect it just gets sent back to the consignee to try again elsewhere. >>
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. >>
What do you think should happen to it?
As much as we'd like to see the card destroyed, I really doubt Rick has the authority to do this. Legally, he probably has to return it. >>
Personally, I think it should be turned over to the FBI along with the consignee's info. They've taken an interest in sports collectibles forgeries in the past and I'm sure could track down the source of this.
If it's not removed from circulations somehow, we're just going to see more of these and they're obviously getting scary good at faking the slabs. >>
The font on the flip definitely looks off, imo. Especially when you compare it to the authentic one Lee posted.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>Im pretty sure Rick looked at this Jeter card. I mean he came on here to promote the thing.. >>
I am not one to bash Rick, or to defend Rick in regard to the Jeter. I believe it has everything to do with "consumer confidence". If I were paying that type of money for a card in a slab, it better be the real thing. If it can skate by the eyes of someone who deals in slabbed cards as part of their profession, I am a bit shaken by this. This board is quite amazing and I an very glad to acquire the knowledge that I have received from this board. It helps all of us in "never get cheated". It does make me wonder about some of the cards that have not been caught.
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
unfortunately or fortunately (however ya wanna look at it) that real card in the fake slab is now considered evidence. it will most likely and hopefully be ruined w/ finger printing, super glue and all sorts of forensic analysis. like I said, hopefully.
before you purists regurgitate that we should never destroy a 93 jeter sp! cmon. we are talking 1 card with the hopes of busting a illegal million dollar operation here. run the damn thing through the gauntlet, go all csi and sh!t.
cue' the scream from "wont be fooled again" / miami csi theme song.
Just some thoughts and experiences I want to share with the forum:
First, I don't know how anyone can really be shocked by this. The prices for some of the true iconic high end low pop cards are getting so crazy. It is ripe for scammers. And scamming is getting more and more sophisticated. I think we all knew we were headed here, just because of the money involved. Where there's a lot of money, there's a lot of corruption...
While it is very scary, remember that this is why we buy these items off eBay or through Paypal. They will cover your loss. I speak from experience. I bought a PSA 10 Joe Montana Rookie off eBay that looked every bit the part. Turned out it was a forged holder. The Montana was real, but probably an 8. But it looked pretty damn close. I brought it back to PSA, they confirmed the forgery, destroyed it, and wrote me a letter which I showed to eBay. PSA was very good about this and very responsive
Just be careful when you're looking at super high end cards of this nature and, yeah, ergoism is a great source to send a PM to to get his opinion.
Regarding Probstein, it's up to each of us whether we want to buy or sell through him. Yes, he can't go through each card due to the sheer volume. However, if it were me, I would look extremely closely at any card that will command 10K plus and make 100% certain that it's good, but that's me
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>Just some thoughts and experiences I want to share with the forum:
First, I don't know how anyone can really be shocked by this. The prices for some of the true iconic high end low pop cards are getting so crazy. It is ripe for scammers. And scamming is getting more and more sophisticated. I think we all knew we were headed here, just because of the money involved. Where there's a lot of money, there's a lot of corruption...
While it is very scary, remember that this is why we buy these items off eBay or through Paypal. They will cover your loss. I speak from experience. I bought a PSA 10 Joe Montana Rookie off eBay that looked every bit the part. Turned out it was a forged holder. The Montana was real, but probably an 8. But it looked pretty damn close. I brought it back to PSA, they confirmed the forgery, destroyed it, and wrote me a letter which I showed to eBay. PSA was very good about this and very responsive
Just be careful when you're looking at super high end cards of this nature and, yeah, ergoism is a great source to send a PM to to get his opinion.
Regarding Probstein, it's up to each of us whether we want to buy or sell through him. Yes, he can't go through each card due to the sheer volume. However, if it were me, I would look extremely closely at any card that will command 10K plus and make 100% certain that it's good, but that's me >>
Well said and excellent points. If there's a silver lining in this for PSA, instances like this could drive demand for re-holdering. Not going to do a whole lot for the bottom line, but it's something.
In a circumstance like this where there is a legitimate part (card) to an overall fraud (card in alleged PSA case), I would not expect the parts to be separated. That is, if you were the "owner" of this item, don't expect a raw Jeter in the mail.
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor.... >>
I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can examine the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher.
<< <i>I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can look at the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher. >>
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor.... >>
I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can examine the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher.
<< <i>The Font is off on the flip. Didn't anyone else see that when first looking at it? >>
Agree. I'm no expert but knowing what an off-center error coin is, you can clearly see the o/c horizontal shift left to right on one and right to left on the other ones borders. Red more prevalent verically on one side than the other when comparing the two labels. Wow.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i>I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can look at the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher. >>
Not if you think about it a bit. >>
I don't deal much in graded cards, but from what I've read, this is the cleanest tampered case anyone on this forum has seen, and this is the first instance of the barcode matching up with the fake flip. Therefore, I could see how the minor font differences could get past a high-level dealer.
What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary.
<< <i>What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary. >>
A lot of people could be the card owner's three brothers and two cousins.
It is a shame that we will never likely know the truth here. It would be very interesting.
Assuming the forger did not consign directly to Rick (possible of course), there has to be a trail. It is a copy of a new cert, how many owners could it have had?
Along that line, here is a question:
That cert comes from what is likely a new holder. Was this card in a new holder or an old one? If new, wow. If old, it could have been a red flag right up front.
The knowledge/information passed on this board on a daily basis is extremely impressive. The fact that someone spotted this through a scan is unbelievable and the level of forgery going on right now casts an unfortunate cloud on the hobby.
Personally, I just got back into the hobby a few months ago and have already seen several examples of "unethical practice" within my own transactions. It is really a shame to be honest.
Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.
<< <i>What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary. >>
This this this. Great point.
When I first looked at the card-- I admittedly did not focus on the slab or flip because I studied the card, but it would have fooled me, too-- I dismissed it out of hand; it did not look remotely like a 10 to me. It had flaws which made it more of an 8.5 or generous 9 to my eye. So what Dnice said above I think is critical, because it speaks to how one good defense against ever being taken by such a "card" is to see if it simply matches or is worthy of the grade. And to pass on it if it does not, no matter what the sticker says.
In other words a willingness to spend 10-money on a 10-sticker that is not truly a 10-card to the eye makes one susceptible to a bad card like this. Us collectors sticking to our guns and exercising our eyes as the final arbiters or graders if you will is a good last line of defense for us all.
That said, it is reassuring somewhat to see the pieces in place act the right way-- the card was caught, PSA has it in hand, and I would hazard that Rick would have made good eventually had it come to light after money changed hands.
<< <i>The knowledge/information passed on this board on a daily basis is extremely impressive. The fact that someone spotted this through a scan is unbelievable and the level of forgery going on right now casts an unfortunate cloud on the hobby.
Personally, I just got back into the hobby a few months ago and have already seen several examples of "unethical practice" within my own transactions. It is really a shame to be honest. >>
I hear you on this, but let's not expect cards-- as much as the cards themselves are intrinsically pure and full of good vibes-- to be immune to the same things as luxury goods, Wall Street, or any other business. Shady aspects abound, be it fake Gucci goods or Rolexes being hawked or insider trading or favors giving connected people the edge in any field. I would love for all aspects of the card collecting world to be as pure as the cards themselves but it seems whenever there is money to be made some humans will yield to unethical instincts.
<< <i>What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary. >>
I agree with this, we all say buy the card and not the holder and this is another reason why......
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Although unlikely, if I ever decide to buy a high end/expensive card I will assuredly run it past the "Sherlock Holmes" group that resides here. Great sleuthing skills are presented here. Thanks go out to all involved.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor.... >>
I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can examine the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher.
Mark >>
+1000
and is he really getting off this easy? it's one of the 2 biggest consignment houses on ebay. this is their profession. this is what they do. could you imagine walking into a dr's office with a severed spine and him calling in another dr. and them say "I concur. he looks good to me too, please see the receptionist for your co-pay".
As Dnice and wrestlingcardking have pointed out, the same doctor analogy can be applied to collectors who were ready to pay for that sticker.
Begsu, you state it very well and I hope it's okay to borrow your words but try them out a slightly other way that's equally as fitting...
"...and are they really getting off that easy? These are card collectors. This is their passion and hobby. This is what they do. They are considering spending big money on a 10. Could you imagine a patient making his way into a doctor's office with a severe spinal injury and the doctor calling in another doctor and them both saying, "Looks like a broken arm to me." And then they recommend arm surgery... And then the patient goes along with it, instead of saying, "Wait a minute, those in seeming authority say my arm is the problem, but my eyes and my gut tell me it's my back; screw this, I am not paying for arm surgery."
I must admit when I first looked at the auction I had no idea that anything funny might be going, however, when I examined the card I thought to myself that there would be no way that I would have received a 10 that particular card. Three of the corners had some white showing. Maybe an 8.5 I told myself, but not a 10.
I absolutely love this forum. If I had one of my forged flips outed I would scale down my greed and go for $500 to $2,000 cards if you guys are only going to scrutinize 10k and up. The bad guys are probably reading these forums too.
Even the legit Jeter flip is missing the dot in the 8.5!
Tallulah Bankhead — 'There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare.'
<< <i>I absolutely love this forum. If I had one of my forged flips outed I would scale down my greed and go for $500 to $2,000 cards if you guys are only going to scrutinize 10k and up. The bad guys are probably reading these forums too.
Even the legit Jeter flip is missing the dot in the 8.5! >>
Actually the dot is there...scanner had dust removal on thus dot was left off.
(speaking in a completely nice tone) borrow them all you want..however the patients in this case never made it to the office. they were simply "diagnosing" off of symptoms. In this case, 2 "doctors", might I even say "specialists" actually reviewed the broken arm and said "you're arm's fine...and that will be $30k".
the fact that someone was gonna fork out $30k is completely fathomable until they got the card in hand as it was a resealed holder. I mean, I wouldn't have as jeter is not my niche nor, as discussed, was that card even worthy of the grade. we will just never know because the card never made it to the high bidders hands to "diagnose" in person. they were bidding on what was presented to them thru a (and I so wanna throw quotes on this next word) reputable dealer which had another specialist (will we ever get his name?) review the actual card. as stated, these guys here smelled something fishy to them without even seeing the d@mn thing live and were able to tell. how could it slip past not one, but possibly 2 people who specialize in this industry...
we all agree the flip was a great one, but let me get a head count here real quick: who here can spot a tampered case? I can. maybe not over a scan, but certainly in person.
Thanks for this information....sort of reminds me of the saying...."no disrespect but......" and then someone generally says something that could be considered offensive to you personally. The seller here smells like a rat to me with "no issues with card or case" since we all know now that the card is a fake (Probstein confirms shipping the card to PSA and it is a fake flip with a legit 8 or so card). There is more to the story and we can clearly see where Probstein got the card from.....good work DPeck, the time with Maurice paid off well.
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i> and is he really getting off this easy? it's one of the 2 biggest consignment houses on ebay. this is their profession. this is what they do. could you imagine walking into a dr's office with a severed spine and him calling in another dr. and them say "I concur. he looks good to me too, please see the receptionist for your co-pay". >>
I spend about half my collecting time with memorabilia and can tell you that in an average auction, a half dozen or more items are pulled after collectors point out why the offered item is not good. This includes primarily four and five figure items. On that side of the fence, the saying is "always do your own research/due diligence."
<< <i>Ironically, the trim is much more visible in the original listing. The card swims in the holder top/bottom and the top edge is awful.
I don't understand the free pass either... >>
I don't get the free pass either.......just dumb-founding honestly.
Mark >>
So where are we now?....be careful on the flips as they are a good at reproducing those, but look at the card and you can see this example is jagged as jagged can be. That is crazy to see how bad that card looks in there in the case of the first auction....OH MY!!!!!!!!!! I wish I could have held this card in hand......
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Comments
<< <i>I think it mighta been sent to psa and I doubt very seriously they will be returning it. pretty sure that's what happened to the plank card as well.
and to whoever said they could spot easily the font was off, I'm gonna go w. the rest of the board and call bs. that was one d@mn good (fake) flip, period.
and if the card was as easily noticeable in hand that it was a crack/reinsert etc, then yes rick should be held accountable. I'm no expert, but I can tell the fake holders or even a cracked real holder w/ even the best glue job.
the quality of the flip and the barcode scanning legit are my main concerns >>
+1 to all of this.
I am pretty good at spotting fake flips and fake cards, and this would have fooled me 9 times out of 10. This is a freaking amazing forgery.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What happens to this card now that the auction is pulled? I would hope it gets destroyed, but suspect it just gets sent back to the consignee to try again elsewhere. >>
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. >>
What do you think should happen to it?
As much as we'd like to see the card destroyed, I really doubt Rick has the authority to do this. Legally, he probably has to return it. >>
Personally, I think it should be turned over to the FBI along with the consignee's info. They've taken an interest in sports collectibles forgeries in the past and I'm sure could track down the source of this.
If it's not removed from circulations somehow, we're just going to see more of these and they're obviously getting scary good at faking the slabs. >>
The FBI is already looking into the guy making these cards.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>The card is real, and if untrimmed is still a $1000+ card if it was a PSA 9. You don't destroy a card like that just because it's in a fake slab.
Lee >>
Lee - sorry I was unclear. I was referencing the slab the card resided in, not the card itself.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What happens to this card now that the auction is pulled? I would hope it gets destroyed, but suspect it just gets sent back to the consignee to try again elsewhere. >>
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. >>
What do you think should happen to it?
As much as we'd like to see the card destroyed, I really doubt Rick has the authority to do this. Legally, he probably has to return it. >>
Personally, I think it should be turned over to the FBI along with the consignee's info. They've taken an interest in sports collectibles forgeries in the past and I'm sure could track down the source of this.
If it's not removed from circulations somehow, we're just going to see more of these and they're obviously getting scary good at faking the slabs. >>
+1
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I mean he came on here to promote the thing..
<< <i>Im pretty sure Rick looked at this Jeter card.
I mean he came on here to promote the thing.. >>
I am not one to bash Rick, or to defend Rick in regard to the Jeter. I believe it has everything to do with "consumer confidence". If I were paying that type of money for a card in a slab, it better be the real thing. If it can skate by the eyes of someone who deals in slabbed cards as part of their profession, I am a bit shaken by this. This board is quite amazing and I an very glad to acquire the knowledge that I have received from this board. It helps all of us in "never get cheated". It does make me wonder about some of the cards that have not been caught.
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
I am not certain if they requested it or if Rick sent it to them on his own accord.
It would seem to me that the card iteself should be returned and the slab kept since it is an authentic copy.
Not sure how it plays out but very glad that this got stopped in its tracks five days prior to the auction ending.
before you purists regurgitate that we should never destroy a 93 jeter sp! cmon. we are talking 1 card with the hopes of busting a illegal million dollar operation here. run the damn thing through the gauntlet, go all csi and sh!t.
cue' the scream from "wont be fooled again" / miami csi theme song.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
First, I don't know how anyone can really be shocked by this. The prices for some of the true iconic high end low pop cards are getting so crazy. It is ripe for scammers. And scamming is getting more and more sophisticated. I think we all knew we were headed here, just because of the money involved. Where there's a lot of money, there's a lot of corruption...
While it is very scary, remember that this is why we buy these items off eBay or through Paypal. They will cover your loss. I speak from experience. I bought a PSA 10 Joe Montana Rookie off eBay that looked every bit the part. Turned out it was a forged holder. The Montana was real, but probably an 8. But it looked pretty damn close. I brought it back to PSA, they confirmed the forgery, destroyed it, and wrote me a letter which I showed to eBay. PSA was very good about this and very responsive
Just be careful when you're looking at super high end cards of this nature and, yeah, ergoism is a great source to send a PM to to get his opinion.
Regarding Probstein, it's up to each of us whether we want to buy or sell through him. Yes, he can't go through each card due to the sheer volume. However, if it were me, I would look extremely closely at any card that will command 10K plus and make 100% certain that it's good, but that's me
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>Just some thoughts and experiences I want to share with the forum:
First, I don't know how anyone can really be shocked by this. The prices for some of the true iconic high end low pop cards are getting so crazy. It is ripe for scammers. And scamming is getting more and more sophisticated. I think we all knew we were headed here, just because of the money involved. Where there's a lot of money, there's a lot of corruption...
While it is very scary, remember that this is why we buy these items off eBay or through Paypal. They will cover your loss. I speak from experience. I bought a PSA 10 Joe Montana Rookie off eBay that looked every bit the part. Turned out it was a forged holder. The Montana was real, but probably an 8. But it looked pretty damn close. I brought it back to PSA, they confirmed the forgery, destroyed it, and wrote me a letter which I showed to eBay. PSA was very good about this and very responsive
Just be careful when you're looking at super high end cards of this nature and, yeah, ergoism is a great source to send a PM to to get his opinion.
Regarding Probstein, it's up to each of us whether we want to buy or sell through him. Yes, he can't go through each card due to the sheer volume. However, if it were me, I would look extremely closely at any card that will command 10K plus and make 100% certain that it's good, but that's me >>
Well said and excellent points. If there's a silver lining in this for PSA, instances like this could drive demand for re-holdering. Not going to do a whole lot for the bottom line, but it's something.
In a circumstance like this where there is a legitimate part (card) to an overall fraud (card in alleged PSA case), I would not expect the parts to be separated. That is, if you were the "owner" of this item, don't expect a raw Jeter in the mail.
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor....
Ebay Store:
Probstein123
phone: 973 747 6304
email: rickprobstein1@gmail.com
Probstein123 is actively accepting CONSIGNMENTS !!
<< <i>hi guys,
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor.... >>
I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can examine the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can look at the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher. >>
Not if you think about it a bit.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>hi guys,
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor.... >>
I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can examine the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher.
Mark >>
I'll agree with this.
<< <i>The Font is off on the flip. Didn't anyone else see that when first looking at it? >>
Agree. I'm no expert but knowing what an off-center error coin is, you can clearly see the o/c horizontal shift left to right on one and right to left on the other ones borders. Red more prevalent verically on one side than the other when comparing the two labels. Wow.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can look at the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher. >>
Not if you think about it a bit. >>
I don't deal much in graded cards, but from what I've read, this is the cleanest tampered case anyone on this forum has seen, and this is the first instance of the barcode matching up with the fake flip. Therefore, I could see how the minor font differences could get past a high-level dealer.
<< <i>What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary. >>
A lot of people could be the card owner's three brothers and two cousins.
Assuming the forger did not consign directly to Rick (possible of course), there has to be a trail. It is a copy of a new cert, how many owners could it have had?
Along that line, here is a question:
That cert comes from what is likely a new holder. Was this card in a new holder or an old one? If new, wow. If old, it could have been a red flag right up front.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Personally, I just got back into the hobby a few months ago and have already seen several examples of "unethical practice" within my own transactions. It is really a shame to be honest.
Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.
-George F. Will
<< <i>It is really a shame to be honest. >>
it is never a shame to be honest.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary. >>
This this this. Great point.
When I first looked at the card-- I admittedly did not focus on the slab or flip because I studied the card, but it would have fooled me, too-- I dismissed it out of hand; it did not look remotely like a 10 to me. It had flaws which made it more of an 8.5 or generous 9 to my eye. So what Dnice said above I think is critical, because it speaks to how one good defense against ever being taken by such a "card" is to see if it simply matches or is worthy of the grade. And to pass on it if it does not, no matter what the sticker says.
In other words a willingness to spend 10-money on a 10-sticker that is not truly a 10-card to the eye makes one susceptible to a bad card like this. Us collectors sticking to our guns and exercising our eyes as the final arbiters or graders if you will is a good last line of defense for us all.
That said, it is reassuring somewhat to see the pieces in place act the right way-- the card was caught, PSA has it in hand, and I would hazard that Rick would have made good eventually had it come to light after money changed hands.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
<< <i>The knowledge/information passed on this board on a daily basis is extremely impressive. The fact that someone spotted this through a scan is unbelievable and the level of forgery going on right now casts an unfortunate cloud on the hobby.
Personally, I just got back into the hobby a few months ago and have already seen several examples of "unethical practice" within my own transactions. It is really a shame to be honest. >>
I hear you on this, but let's not expect cards-- as much as the cards themselves are intrinsically pure and full of good vibes-- to be immune to the same things as luxury goods, Wall Street, or any other business. Shady aspects abound, be it fake Gucci goods or Rolexes being hawked or insider trading or favors giving connected people the edge in any field. I would love for all aspects of the card collecting world to be as pure as the cards themselves but it seems whenever there is money to be made some humans will yield to unethical instincts.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
<< <i>What is really insane is that a lot of people were ready to throw $20,000+ on a card that CLEARLY didn't even look like a 10 all because of a number on a flip. Now THAT is scary. >>
I agree with this, we all say buy the card and not the holder and this is another reason why......
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Great detective work! Makes you think...how many more are in auction houses/Ebay right now.
<< <i>
<< <i>hi guys,
joe orlando requested to see the card, we shipped it to him fedex
I personally checked the card, the psa cert number ran in the psa database and I tried to open the card with my fingernails , and the holder was sealed when I checked it....
psa told me it was a real card inside a resealed holder....
a high level dealer came to our office the day we posted it and thought everything was fine as well...
psa called me , told me if was resealed, and I contacted ebay to end the listing....
psa is handling now with the consignor.... >>
I don't understand how two "high level dealers" can examine the card "in hand" and not find a problem with it but the guys on the board here can spot something wrong within 24 hours using only scans. To me, this is a real head scratcher.
Mark >>
+1000
and is he really getting off this easy? it's one of the 2 biggest consignment houses on ebay. this is their profession. this is what they do. could you imagine walking into a dr's office with a severed spine and him calling in another dr. and them say "I concur. he looks good to me too, please see the receptionist for your co-pay".
doctor, doctor, doctor
Begsu, you state it very well and I hope it's okay to borrow your words but try them out a slightly other way that's equally as fitting...
"...and are they really getting off that easy? These are card collectors. This is their passion and hobby. This is what they do. They are considering spending big money on a 10. Could you imagine a patient making his way into a doctor's office with a severe spinal injury and the doctor calling in another doctor and them both saying, "Looks like a broken arm to me." And then they recommend arm surgery... And then the patient goes along with it, instead of saying, "Wait a minute, those in seeming authority say my arm is the problem, but my eyes and my gut tell me it's my back; screw this, I am not paying for arm surgery."
Instagram: mattyc_collection
Card not the holder, right.
Even the legit Jeter flip is missing the dot in the 8.5!
<< <i>I absolutely love this forum. If I had one of my forged flips outed I would scale down my greed and go for $500 to $2,000 cards if you guys are only going to scrutinize 10k and up. The bad guys are probably reading these forums too.
Even the legit Jeter flip is missing the dot in the 8.5! >>
Actually the dot is there...scanner had dust removal on thus dot was left off.
(speaking in a completely nice tone) borrow them all you want..however the patients in this case never made it to the office. they were simply "diagnosing" off of symptoms. In this case, 2 "doctors", might I even say "specialists" actually reviewed the broken arm and said "you're arm's fine...and that will be $30k".
the fact that someone was gonna fork out $30k is completely fathomable until they got the card in hand as it was a resealed holder. I mean, I wouldn't have as jeter is not my niche nor, as discussed, was that card even worthy of the grade. we will just never know because the card never made it to the high bidders hands to "diagnose" in person. they were bidding on what was presented to them thru a (and I so wanna throw quotes on this next word) reputable dealer which had another specialist (will we ever get his name?) review the actual card. as stated, these guys here smelled something fishy to them without even seeing the d@mn thing live and were able to tell. how could it slip past not one, but possibly 2 people who specialize in this industry...
we all agree the flip was a great one, but let me get a head count here real quick: who here can spot a tampered case? I can. maybe not over a scan, but certainly in person.
They are also located in New Jersey.
Nice selection of other items listed too.
<< <i>No issues with the card or case
They are also located in New Jersey.
Nice selection of other items listed too. >>
Thanks for this information....sort of reminds me of the saying...."no disrespect but......" and then someone generally says something that could be considered offensive to you personally. The seller here smells like a rat to me with "no issues with card or case" since we all know now that the card is a fake (Probstein confirms shipping the card to PSA and it is a fake flip with a legit 8 or so card). There is more to the story and we can clearly see where Probstein got the card from.....good work DPeck, the time with Maurice paid off well.
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i> and is he really getting off this easy? it's one of the 2 biggest consignment houses on ebay. this is their profession. this is what they do. could you imagine walking into a dr's office with a severed spine and him calling in another dr. and them say "I concur. he looks good to me too, please see the receptionist for your co-pay". >>
I spend about half my collecting time with memorabilia and can tell you that in an average auction, a half dozen or more items are pulled after collectors point out why the offered item is not good. This includes primarily four and five figure items. On that side of the fence, the saying is "always do your own research/due diligence."
[I have never sold an item through PRobstein.]
wonder if this guy's name is dominic barrero or something to that sort.
<< <i>Frosted >>
That is a hilarious attempt
I don't understand the free pass either...
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>Ironically, the trim is much more visible in the original listing. The card swims in the holder top/bottom and the top edge is awful.
I don't understand the free pass either... >>
I was looking at this. It is really bad.
Not sure how anyone could have turned this card over and not thought something was wrong. The top edge looks jagged.
With an expected price tag of 30k plus this is a serious crime and won't be taken lightly by the authorities.
I am curious what tipped PSA off. Perhaps the thread in the BST, this first listing or just a general sweep of EBAY.
<< <i>Ironically, the trim is much more visible in the original listing. The card swims in the holder top/bottom and the top edge is awful.
I don't understand the free pass either... >>
I don't get the free pass either.......just dumb-founding honestly.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>
<< <i>Ironically, the trim is much more visible in the original listing. The card swims in the holder top/bottom and the top edge is awful.
I don't understand the free pass either... >>
I don't get the free pass either.......just dumb-founding honestly.
Mark >>
So where are we now?....be careful on the flips as they are a good at reproducing those, but look at the card and you can see this example is jagged as jagged can be. That is crazy to see how bad that card looks in there in the case of the first auction....OH MY!!!!!!!!!! I wish I could have held this card in hand......
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable