NEWP My first Trade Dollar........is the Color Questionable?

OldIndianNutKase · July 21, 2014 5:21AM

I recently acquired this nicely toned 1883 Proof Trade Dollar:

Coin is RAW proof. Has some scratches on the obverse that may prevent it from grading?? But it does have nice cameo look. I am open to all opinions as to grade........you cannot hurt my feelings.

OINK

Ajjohnson77 · July 21, 2014 5:42AM

tough to tell from the picture but PR64? No idea as to the cameo look to it.

telephoto1 · July 21, 2014 5:43AM

I like the color, but it's hard to get a good feel for grade with the contrasty images supplied. 65?

crypto79 · July 21, 2014 5:55AM

All Trade Dollars are cool, too bad it isn't one model year newer

PF60 Details

SeattleSlammer · July 21, 2014 5:56AM

That pic is terrible.
But it looks like it could be a nice piece.

csdot · July 21, 2014 6:30AM

The pic is great. I love the way it captures the proof colors. Looks like it could be a nice piece.

MilkmanDan · July 21, 2014 6:52AM

You might try having it graded. I've found that with proof TDs, PCGS will usually grade them unless the problems are more severe. It may only go PF60 or 61 though, or maybe not grade but I think it's worth a try.

lcoopie · July 21, 2014 7:04AM

There is no way to grade your coin with your photos

good luck with it

sparky64 · July 21, 2014 7:55AM

I love the glam shot but there should also be an accompanying non-reflective pic.
That pic makes it looks PR69.

Was it an impulse buy or have you been actively looking for one?

Congrats, btw. Yours is about 40 points higher than my recent first T$.

commoncents05 · July 21, 2014 8:45AM

I hate to rain on the parade, but GreatSouthernCoins cracks out low grade or problem coin and sells them raw on eBay. I think you will be sorely disappointed when you send this coin in for grading, after paying full blown retail PR64 money. Return it while you can, you'll thank me later.

-Paul

BryceM · July 21, 2014 8:59AM

If commoncents05 is correct about the source and sale price, I'd very carefully inspect the coin when you receive it....... good advice for any transaction, but especially true in this case.

crypto79 · July 21, 2014 9:46AM

<< I hate to rain on the parade, but GreatSouthernCoins cracks out low grade or problem coin and sells them raw on eBay. I think you will be sorely disappointed when you send this coin in for grading, after paying full blown retail PR64 money. Return it while you can, you'll thank me later.

-Paul >>

Sometimes I forget that there are people out there who don't know that. Run forest

kaz · July 21, 2014 9:54AM

I agree with commoncents05; considering the source of the coin there is a high probability of it not grading. My opinion is that your best option is to return it ASAP.

originalisbest · July 21, 2014 11:02AM

<< 

<< I hate to rain on the parade, but GreatSouthernCoins cracks out low grade or problem coin and sells them raw on eBay. I think you will be sorely disappointed when you send this coin in for grading, after paying full blown retail PR64 money. Return it while you can, you'll thank me later.

-Paul >>

Sometimes I forget that there are people out there who don't know that. Run forest >>

True. Hope you can get a refund -- nothing positive is coming your way buying from that particular seller raw, if that's what you did here...

Walkerguy21D · July 21, 2014 11:13AM

Looks like a nice coin - more so if the price was reasonable.
But if I was paying 'full blown retail PR64 money', as another poster mentioned,
I would want it to be in a PCGS PR64 holder with a sticker.

Scootersdad · July 21, 2014 11:15AM

looks scary good Proof 69+

123cents · July 21, 2014 11:41AM

My all means use the return privilege.

MilkmanDan · July 21, 2014 11:44AM

<< I hate to rain on the parade, but GreatSouthernCoins cracks out low grade or problem coin and sells them raw on eBay. I think you will be sorely disappointed when you send this coin in for grading, after paying full blown retail PR64 money. Return it while you can, you'll thank me later.

-Paul >>

Oof, didn't realize that was the case (although looking back I should have known from the pics).

I concurr with others the best path forward is return.

magikbilly · July 21, 2014 12:18PM

Don't know seller but would run from photo.

Eric

OldIndianNutKase · July 21, 2014 2:29PM

<< I hate to rain on the parade, but GreatSouthernCoins cracks out low grade or problem coin and sells them raw on eBay. I think you will be sorely disappointed when you send this coin in for grading, after paying full blown retail PR64 money. Return it while you can, you'll thank me later.

-Paul >>

I will confirm your suspicions. I did get the in a GSCAuction for $3,505. That is about straight up PF63 money. I am not sure how much the attractive toning (at least to me) might enhance that value. The obverse has two or three small dings in the fields and some light scratches similar to hairlines but more random and slightly more pronounced than a typical hairline. The toning in the area of these scratches seems to be effected by the scratches. To me this indicates the scratches preceded the toning.

I bid hoping to get a coin that would grade 64 for 63 money. I am pretty sure the coin might likely grade 62 or 63. But there is always the possibility that it could just be Genuine, Questionable Color. I have purchased a few IHC proofs from GSC that graded .91 Questionable Color.

So, my greatest concern is the credibility of the toning. If the coin would straight grade I am tempted to keep it for my toner type set. If QC I would return it.

OINK

crypto79 · July 21, 2014 2:33PM

For what it is worth I have never seen a trade dollar look like that if the pics are anyway accurate. Easter egg colors would personally scare me off, I highly recommend you return it as it has a wholesale value of about 1k in a GEN holder. 2500$ is a lot to risk on a long shot IMHO

Boosibri · July 21, 2014 2:36PM

Return the coin and buy one already graded.

GSC is nothing but trouble.

MilkmanDan · July 21, 2014 2:49PM

Heritage archives show 1883 PR TDs in PR63 going for about $2500-$3000, or slightly higher for Cameo or CAC. Why take such a big risk?

coindeuce · July 21, 2014 2:50PM

The color reminds me of what happens to business strike silver dollars that have been dipped in Clorox.

Coupdescrounge · July 21, 2014 2:58PM

You bought it, they delivered it, keep it.. unless they somehow misrepresented it.

Part of the problem with online transactions these days is people buying something hoping they got a "rip"; when they find out they didn't, they want to return it. People need to educate themselves BEFORE buying. To do otherwise is to waste everyone's time and money.

Boosibri · July 21, 2014 3:06PM

<< You bought it, they delivered it, keep it.. unless they somehow misrepresented it.

Part of the problem with online transactions these days is people buying something hoping they got a "rip"; when they find out they didn't, they want to return it. People need to educate themselves BEFORE buying. To do otherwise is to waste everyone's time and money. >>

This is poor advice. A business model of cracking out problem coins and representing them as problem free is not misleading?

Not sure how one can look at those pictures and think the coin will look like that in hand which is the fault of the OP. Regardless, there is a return privilege, use it.

Coupdescrounge · July 21, 2014 3:08PM

Didn't say I agree with their business model. It doesn't matter how a coin got to where it's at. How many coins out there have a checkered back story?
He bought a coin that was pictured, they delivered.

stealer · July 21, 2014 3:18PM

<< You bought it, they delivered it, keep it.. unless they somehow misrepresented it.

Part of the problem with online transactions these days is people buying something hoping they got a "rip"; when they find out they didn't, they want to return it. People need to educate themselves BEFORE buying. To do otherwise is to waste everyone's time and money. >>

I think the OP quite clearly stated that he knew full well he was paying 64 money, hoping to get a coin that was 63-64 in quality. I don't think he was looking for a rip. If the seller offers a return policy, I see no issue with using it. If I buy an item at a chain store and later decide that it was an extraneous purchase, I do the rational thing and return it.

Coupdescrounge · July 21, 2014 3:28PM

I can understand a return if there was a misrepresentation. Did the seller represent in any way that this coin would straight grade? If they did I can understand why a return is warranted, but if they simply posted the coin, ran the auction and he won, I see no reason for a return, other than buyers remorse.

and back to my point: Buyers remorse returns need to be stopped. Think before buying and putting everyone out.

Elcontador · July 21, 2014 4:45PM

1) As has been stated too many times on this forum, NEVER EVER buy a raw Trade $. It is raw for a reason. Years ago, when I was in Vietnam, I bought an attractive 1875 CC Trade $. Virtually all of the fakes were 1875 S coins, and badly done. This coin had XF details and looked legit. I paid $32 for it, figuring it was such a good fake - if was not graded, I knew it was a fake - I could afford to throw away $32 on such an item. I brought it to a Long Beach Show. The specs were there, details were all correct, and when I took it out of its holder, the weight was correct.

Most dealers thought it was the real deal. Until one of them asked if he could drop it on the floor. The man explained that to check the metallic content of the coin, you could tell whether the 'ping' sound when it hit a hard surface was correct. The coin failed this test because of insufficient silver content. If the manufacturer of the coin was willing to spend a couple of dollars on the silver and get the metallic content right, virtually all of the dealers who looked at the coin would have been fooled. Point being, if this fake could fool most dealers, good fakes are going to fool most collectors. At least if a fake gets holdered, you will be made whole by the TPGs.

If you want to buy a Trade $, get one that's already graded.

2) The light purple on the coin is very easy to artificially manufacture in a lab / oven. I run from that color on Unc. or PF silver. I have seen some gem silver coins toned like that get into first world holders, but not often. Assuming this coin is a legitimate Trade $, an assumption I would never make with one which is raw, I think the best you are going to get from a TPG is a details graded coin.

3) Unless you are an error guy, you can take it to the bank that the person selling the coin to you knows more about it than you do. There is no Santa Claus in numismatics.

4) Paying strong money for a rare raw coin, hoping it grades, irrespective of its source, is a loser's game. For every thread here with someone claiming he or she has done it, there are probably a hundred instances of people buying these coins and losing their money.

crypto79 · July 21, 2014 9:41PM

<< I can understand a return if there was a misrepresentation. Did the seller represent in any way that this coin would straight grade? If they did I can understand why a return is warranted, but if they simply posted the coin, ran the auction and he won, I see no reason for a return, other than buyers remorse.

and back to my point: Buyers remorse returns need to be stopped. Think before buying and putting everyone out. >>

I would bet the house that price was derived through multiple shills as well once they got a fish on the line. I agree with the age old advice to never buy raw coins in general unless you know what you are doing. There are a lot more losers than winners in that game. There are plenty who do it well but they are way out numbered by victims.

JJM · July 21, 2014 9:45PM

eh, iffy at best.............but im scared of all raw Trade Dollars..................

TwoSides2aCoin · July 21, 2014 10:02PM

The color is not as questionable as some other things, but there's no sense in me elaborating beyond numismatics.
…. it can be sent in for "restoration" , if you really don't like it.

BryceM · July 21, 2014 10:13PM

The color is questionable. The hairlines are questionable. Its authenticity is even questionable. Not one person here who is knowledgeable about trade dollars thinks keeping this coin is a good idea. It isn't in a holder for a reason....... 99% certain.

MilkmanDan · July 21, 2014 10:27PM

<< I can understand a return if there was a misrepresentation. Did the seller represent in any way that this coin would straight grade? If they did I can understand why a return is warranted, but if they simply posted the coin, ran the auction and he won, I see no reason for a return, other than buyers remorse.

and back to my point: Buyers remorse returns need to be stopped. Think before buying and putting everyone out. >>

Misrepresentation?
How about overly optimistic photos.

Simply posted the coin, ran the auction and he won?
No, the price was only achieved through shill bidding.

I sort of agree with what you're saying in principle, but it doesn't apply here.

OldIndianNutKase · July 21, 2014 10:51PM

<< I can understand a return if there was a misrepresentation. Did the seller represent in any way that this coin would straight grade? If they did I can understand why a return is warranted, but if they simply posted the coin, ran the auction and he won, I see no reason for a return, other than buyers remorse.

and back to my point: Buyers remorse returns need to be stopped. Think before buying and putting everyone out. >>

The terms of the auction allow for a 14 day return, no questions asked. Give GSC a lot of credit for offering these terms with their auctions. Many sellers on eBay do not and I would NEVER bid on their auctions for that reason alone. I have returned coins to them in the past and I have been very happy with most of the mint state and circulated coins that I have purchased from them. Proofs, and especially toned proofs, are difficult from a picture. If you can't grade from a picture, and with the picture of this coin, you surely cannot, you have to evaluate the coin in hand. If you do not bid on a coin you think you may like, you have no chance of acquiring it, do you? These types of eBay auctions are not like bidding on a Heritage auction, where you have no return priviledge, as you have no ability to inspect the coins in hand (or have an agent inspect them) prior to bidding. I am sure that GSC gets a lot more action than most sellers on eBay who try to sell coins based upon your "buyers remorse" argument.

OINK

BillJones · July 21, 2014 11:00PM

If that picture is an accurate reflection of the true color of this coin, I would say that the toning is questionable. I can't recall seeing that shade on a naturally toned piece.

As the others have said, unless you are buying this coin at a deep discount under the price of a certified example, I don't know why you are getting involved with it on the Internet. I have had a lot of experience with coins, and I would consider a raw coin IF I COULD SEE IT IN PERSON. Otherwise, I would avoid it. These days, raw coins are often left raw for a reason, and that reason is usually not the buyer's benefit.

telephoto1 · July 22, 2014 3:07AM

I personally wouldn't buy from GSC but they have a return policy; use it if you don't like the piece. In the end it's your decision; either you like it or you don't. Proceed accordingly.

Unknown · July 22, 2014 3:23AM

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123cents · July 22, 2014 3:26AM

When you are buying coins off Ebay how can you call it buyers remorse when the coin hasn't been seen in hand? I have even returned a few graded coins that looked nothing like the photos and am also smart enough not to buy a coin over $50 on Ebay without the seller offering a return policy.

OldIndianNutKase · July 22, 2014 10:09AM

<< For what it is worth I have never seen a trade dollar look like that if the pics are anyway accurate. Easter egg colors would personally scare me off, I highly recommend you return it as it has a wholesale value of about 1k in a GEN holder. 2500$ is a lot to risk on a long shot IMHO >>

For all of you, including myself, that question the toning on this coin I compared it to toned Trade Proof Trade Dollars on Coin Facts as well as in the Registry. Here is a coin with similar toning:

and here is the coin posted:

In hand the 1883 obverse is more bluish than purple, and the reverse is more golden than yellow. Very much the same shade as the 1875 which I presume is a TrueView as I can download a supersized view which reveals a number of dings, etc. that caused it to grade PF65CAM. To my eye, which admittedly is not experienced with T$, the toning seems to be NT. From the picture on eBay you can barely discern the dings and you cannot see any of the hairlines. My greatest fear is that it would grade Genuine - Harsh Cleaning even though you cannot see the hairlines with your naked eye. But for now I do not have the ability to share that detail with all of you. One difference noted between the two coins is the 1883 devices are maybe too vibrant??

And for all, I genuinely appreciate all of your opinions and obversations. If it were to grade PF62 I would keep it despite I paid over that just because I bought it for the toning. I bought it for a toned type set and nicely toned T$'s are not very common.

OINK

crypto79 · July 22, 2014 10:21AM

I believe most people have offered their opinions, I simply beleive they are not what you want to hear.

2nd of all I don't think the coloration and (!) toning pattern of the 75 has much in common with the 83.

tradedollarnut · July 22, 2014 11:22AM

nicely toned T$'s are not very common.

While this is true of circulation strikes, not so true of proofs. And if you willing to settle, I'm sure someone could cook you up a nicer one.

IMO, return it and buy a certified nicely toned coin. When it comes time to sell, you won't be out 60% or more.

stealer · July 22, 2014 1:18PM

Sorry bud, but the toning on the 1875 is in no way similar to your 1883. You can't grade proof coinage from glamor shots (which both the CoinFacts and the GSC images are), period.

magikbilly · July 22, 2014 1:21PM

Apples and oranges. Re-assessment is suggested.

Eric

lkeigwin · July 22, 2014 2:11PM

Return it while you can. Or prepare yourself for an expensive lesson.
Lance.

GrumpyEd · July 22, 2014 2:28PM

I see it as a risk without much upside.
I'd assume it probably already was sent in and would be in a holder if the result was good.

I'd return it and buy one in a slab, minimize the risks.

messydesk · July 22, 2014 3:07PM

You just bought the riskiest US type to buy raw. From here, color is questionable. Just return it.

LochNESS · July 22, 2014 3:28PM

Enough has been said about the authenticity and return policy. My question is to those (two people, I counted) who remarked PF69 ... seriously? Do you not see the fingerprints on the reverse? or the scratches on the obverse? Where are you getting 69?

And yes I agree 100% about the toning of the 75 not matching because it doesn't. One of those images shows common rainbow tones in a gradual / gradient burst, while the other (your NEWP) shows primarily two colors: neon purple and yellow. It's just not natural.

Unknown · July 22, 2014 3:56PM

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3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · July 22, 2014 5:33PM

...I have no idea what to do with this situation from personal experience...but I do notice that just about every OG Trade Dollar specialist has chimed in with their opinion, and since their opinions all match up...I would 100% return the coin for refund. I have bought from GSC but only in PCGS plastic, a couple which have CAC'ed. As a rule of thumb, if an eBay seller has PCGS/NGC coins for sale, and raw coins, and they are a large dealer....I would never consider buying raw at auction. I mean, they obviously can submit at bulk discount pricing to TPG's, so why are they selling raw???

Hope it works out for you buddy,
Erik

NEWP My first Trade Dollar........is the Color Questionable?

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