I love to cruise shows and look for coins in any holder available. If I am thinking of the "flip" -- PCGS rules for me. Yet the best undergraded dollar I have ever seen in my collecting life was an NGC. I missed it. The dealer wouldn't sell . .
As a "holder guy", I still look for the coin when I am on the 'collecting' side of my hobby. If it is a holder I am seeking -- well, you know the desires I have.
Sure, buy the coin, not the holder. Just realize that when it's time to sell your prize everyone will key in the holder. NO non-generic NGC coin is going to realize the same money as if that coin were in a PCGS holder. If you expect PCGS money for your NGC coins, then crack them out and get them in different holders. It's as simple as that. You can know how to grade and love your coins too. But that 2nd sentence above is still the law of the land. It's been that way since the mid-1990's. If you are getting 100% PCGS money for your NGC coins please tell us all how you do it because we'd love to know. I haven't been able to do it since 1990. First there was the 5-10% NGC discount and then it increased to up to 15% in 2007-2008. During 2009-2011 it was as high as 30-40%. Haven't done much selling the past 2 years but I suspect it's still at least 15-20%.
Given that I am a "coin" collector and not a "holder" collector, the plastic surrounding a coin does not matter to me. Certain coins will look better in an NGC holder, mostly due to the gasket surrounding the coin, although the new prong gaskets are changing that factor. When I am dealing with varieties, I tend to use ANACS, since they do a better job overall with attribution, and for many varieties, cost of encapsulation is an important consideration.
However, PCGS has won the PR battle over the past 20 years, for a variety of reasons. I agree with many previous posters that for certain coins, you need PCGS plastic to obtain the best results (quicker sale, higher price, happier customers. etc.) Just my experience.
In the big picture, shouldn't a properly graded 65 (for example) worth $500 (for example) fetch the same money, regardless of holder it is in ?
IMO having a MS65 with a book value of (again for example) $500 (raw) fetch $445 in a ANACS holder, $490 in a NGC holder and $530 in a PCGS holder seems convoluted.
We all want the most money we can get for our coins, when the time comes to sell, and (again IMO) having coins in one holder (in identical grades) worth more than coins in someone else's holder (with exceptions of the "fly by nights") A: encourages people to buy the holder not the coin, and B: biases people to have their coins graded by the company that's holdered coins fetch the most money, regardless of what grading service is leading the market at that time.
if you know how to grade, what level of "original" you are looking for, and can decide for your self what is market acceptable, the holder doesn't matter. ANACS is hands down the best for counterfeit detection, the other two can grade, but if you know your series, you may not always agree. when it comes time to dump overgraded cleaned coins, one holder will bring more money than the other two
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>Sure, buy the coin, not the holder. Just realize that when it's time to sell your prize everyone will key in the holder. NO non-generic NGC coin is going to realize the same money as if that coin were in a PCGS holder. If you expect PCGS money for your NGC coins, then crack them out and get them in different holders. It's as simple as that. You can know how to grade and love your coins too. But that 2nd sentence above is still the law of the land. It's been that way since the mid-1990's. If you are getting 100% PCGS money for your NGC coins please tell us all how you do it because we'd love to know. I haven't been able to do it since 1990. First there was the 5-10% NGC discount and then it increased to up to 15% in 2007-2008. During 2009-2011 it was as high as 30-40%. Haven't done much selling the past 2 years but I suspect it's still at least 15-20%. >>
If you have a scarce coin and can find collectors who are generally interested in it because of something about it makes it special, the holder won't matter. There are very few coins like this. Imo, the hobby is more driven by people buying and selling coins than by people actually collecting them at present, so the odds are stacked against finding the right party / parties for the described scarce coin. It's all about marketing. The bells and whistles do matter, unless the buyer doesn't care if he is buried in a coin when buying it for whatever reason.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
In the big picture, shouldn't a properly graded 65 (for example) worth $500 (for example) fetch the same money, regardless of holder it is in ?
It should. But, the market reality is it doesn't....at least not for non-generic coins. The holder provides liquidity and other factors that affect the price. I cannot think of a single instance for 18th-19th-20th century choice and gem type (copper, silver, nickel and gold) since 1998 where the same coin in a PCGS holder wouldn't bring more money. While one could point to Newman as an example where NGC coins brought a ton of money, even record prices in some cases. They would have fetched more in the auction if in the identical graded PCGS holder. An NGC coin worth X, is worth X+premium in a PCGS holder. I know of no regularly traded US coins (1793-1964) that violate this....though I admit there might be a couple out there among thousands of transactions (ie <1-5% of the market place). You have to find a niche in the market where NGC grades tighter and the demand for their product exceeds PCGS. The fact that the PCGS registry is much stronger than NGC's also adds to the effect. Bring me any coin that I have owned, bid on, or just viewed on the bourse or auction floor in the last 40 years, and I would pay more for it in a PCGS holder (tens or hundreds of thousands of coins). Your mileage may vary if you collect stuff after 1964, foreign, medals, exonumia, SCD, colonials, etc. This is what my market area tells me. I no longer fight it....and play along with it. I really wish none of this was true because 85% of my collection from 1988-2008 was in NGC coins.
Edit: I thought of a single (non-generic) coin that I owned as an exception to the above. 1838 NGC MS67* half dime. That coin did bring 3X PCGS MS67 money at auction for me in 2009 because the coin was so nice. Even though it was 67+ quality all day long it never crossed on 3-4 attempts. I always felt the coin was a 68 candidate. That coin made it into the Gardner collection in 2009....and later upgraded to NGC MS68. So there was a coin that no matter how you sliced it, fetched the same or more in an NGC holder. The "star" system that is only offered at NGC and can result in some big price aberrations. Other than "star" coins, I cannot think of any exceptions....though some might consider the early fat NGC holders (black plastic or stenciled reverse gold logo) as exceptions too. On many nice coins the premium difference might be small enough as to be hardly noticed during negotiations (ie 3-10%). But, I submit it is always there. And the more expensive and lower pop a coin becomes, the larger the premium that tends to be associated with it. Look at MS65 seated or trade dollars for example - MS65 bust halves is another good one.
I think there are some coins it's beneficial to purchase in NGC and ANACS slabs. The fact is that on average, they simply do a better job than PCGS. Since there's a bias, the competitor's slabbed coin can be not only a better coin, but less costly.
Win-win.
If you buy a coin at a discount in another slab it stands to reason that when you sell the coin you should expect to give a discount also.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
"We interupt this program to bring you the following breaking news".Whenever I read discussions about the grading world some degree of confusion still exists for me. I assumed (wrongly?) that with the advent of grading this would eliminate the majority of confusion.Perhaps it has. But at the same time it seems to have created it's own world of confusion within said world.Pricing differential(mentioned in this thread)amongst the grading companies,"buy the coin not the holder" reasoning,lingering disputes over what is an AU55 in one holder vs. an AU55 in another holder,"cracking out" for regrades,opening the case and swapping out the coin/card,and more examples that do not need mentioning as I'm sure all of you here have your favorites. My personal opinion is other than verifying a coin/sportscard as genuine,as best as can be determined by the TPG's,I would rather let eye appeal alone dictate the "grade" for me for my PC.If "I" think it is worthy of a coin for my collection.I can remember from long ago the grading issues that existed back then,be it BD,Photograde, etc.I can appreciate the viewpoint that when it comes to reselling that many would find more comfortability in purchasing a graded coin if they were a novice collector. But a seasoned buyer may still dispute the TPG assigned grade,so what good is it in those cases for reselling? Do you pawn an overgraded(?)coin off on the unsuspecting/green collector?Yes,grading has it's place and I do appreciate the existence of TPG's.But my use for them lies more in the verification of authenticity, not so much in the numeric designation.I will use them primarily for that purpose and look at their numeric designation as a bonus, that I expect down the road may cause a debate between buyer/seller."We now return you to your regular scheduled program".
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i>One of the pleasures for me is to maintain registry sets where I post photographs and comments about each coin. I post on the NGC site because they accept PCGS and NGC coins. I don't post on the PCGS site because they won't take NGC. I don't even look at ANACS coins because you can't post those pieces to either site.
So far as tokens and medals go I'd rather have them raw. I only buy them in the slab if that is only way to get them. >>
I've had many pictures of ANACS coins posted in a Registry set. I plan on doing so again......when time allows. Simply upload the pictures and make your comments. You won't get any points but others can see the coin. But FWIW, I rarely state which holders my coins are in when all that matters is the quality of the coin. For those who have a problem buying coins outside of PCGS, well, they simply don't have the necessary grading skills to do so. They will never know if they're getting a square deal in whatever they buy. Not having the ability of measuring each quality a coin may possess leaves many at a disadvantage. They won't ever know 100% if they will get their return on a coin. Sure, many bank their trust in the most likeable holders but eventually, every coin will have to face the buyer who knows how to grade. And there are rejections on coins in all holders. The only drawback to coin grading by these grading companies is when they place a MS64 or 65 coin in a MS67 holder and that coin has an EDS strike. While I'll highly desire that coin, no way will I pay 67 money for it. But this rarely happens. But than again, an EDS coin is a rare encounter.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Many things can be disputed about graded coins, however, the unrelenting fact is that coins sold at auction have a pecking order in how much money they will bring. PCGS > NGC > ANACS > third party other.
Everyone says buy the coin, not the holder. I subscribe to that, but there have been time frames where grading has been quite different among the various grading services. When I had a high grade (67 and 68) No Bands Mercury Dime set, NGC coins were routinely one point more generous in grading than PCGS. This was reflected in the market as well as being well known among the collectors of the series at that time (10 years ago).
One cannot fairly transpose those results to all series, but that was the situation at that time. The lingering effect is just one more reason that PCGS coins bring more money than other series. It is NOT true across all series, else there would be a different discount.
At the end of the day, if you desire to sell a coin, it will bring more money virtually every time in a PCGS holder of the same grade as the other services. Markets are efficient, and I do NOT believe it is publicity, but rather the experienced buyers and sellers who have created this dynamic. They have no other reason other than maximizing their own return. Just MHO
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
I like them both, (NGC and PCGS). I would say I am 50/50. In some ways the special labels on the Moderns give the NGC an edge but I guess if rats to the trap, if it was a coin of real value....one would want to sell it in a PCGS holder but that is starting to change...I don't own coins that costly so it is moot.
I do have a gripe with both though, as a collector it is too big of a hassle to get one slabbed as both are geared for dealers. ANACS is cheap and for the collector I would say but too many ownership changes......
Disclaimer : Never had a coin graded by a TPG, too much hassle.
"A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
Lots of varying opinions in this thread. It's funny reading what you wrote a few years earlier because your mind will likely be thinking along the same lines today. I had to scratch my head at some of the comments claiming all services grade equally well. If really the case, then the coins would bring the same prices in the market, whether on the bourse or at auction. And clearly they don't. NGC can't grade 4X as many MS65 capped bust halves as PCGS (with both seeing the same approx number of coins) and expect their price to be anywhere near as strong as a PCGS MS65. My last experience with ANACS was not a good one. I had purchased 3 coins with the notion of crossing/upgrading them. They were a gem MS65 Lib nickel, a gem PF65 UCAM seated quarter with exceptional black/white contrast, and an 1866 25c in AU55 that had absolutely no wear and full mint luster. I "knew" I was going to do well on this group, if not just for the 1866 25c which I graded MS63.
Well, the nickel came back AT, the proof seated quarter as "altered surfaces," and the 1866 also AT. 3 for 3....lol. Those opinions sort of ruined everything. I was able to sell them in the ANACS holders to Jim Halperin for slight losses on the nickel and proof quarter, and a little profit on the 1866 (Jim agreed it was an unc coin that ANACS hammered for the weak strike). They were still attractive coins as is. I was never able to figure out what was wrong with the proof but some I showed it to suggested it was lasered, maybe even expertly frosted. In any case it was a good lesson back in 2006/2007 why PCGS and NGC carry more weight than other TPG's.
Yes, it really matters who is grading the coin, whether it's 2014 or 2016.
Grading/slabs matter for resale.... I find their greatest value is the perceived value by collectors who either cannot grade or do not trust their skills. Obviously, a slabbed coin - by the top TPG - will sell for much more than a raw coin. It all comes down to $$$. Cheers, RickO
Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin When it comes to photographing coins in their holders… it doesn't matter. I suck at it. And I think some coins will cross over and some won't.
Do some dealers find it more difficult to sell an accurately graded coin simply because it was graded by NGC rather than PCGS? Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins? By ignoring NGC slabs at a coin show, you are ignoring about half of all certified coins and are probably overlooking some great buys on the basis you buy only PCGS slabs.
Do some dealers find it more difficult to sell an accurately graded coin simply because it was graded by NGC rather than PCGS?
Only if you're asking the same money that a PCGS coin would bring, and the coin in question is non-generic. Common date MS64 Morgans and Saints bring the same money (ie sight-unseen traded coins).
Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins?
In a nut shell, yes...assuming you're expecting PCGS level money. Even in the pre-CAC days you had to discount non-generic NGC coins by 5-15%. It's a potentially different story for fresh old fatty holders, stars, and other positive NGC attributes. It's not a level playing field out there for 80-90% of the non-PCGS coins. That would only the case if all coins were cracked out of their holders.
This is a very interesting thread. I've been collecting since the 60's, long before the current number grading was in use or before PCGS, NGC, and others were even a dream. Interestingly, some dealers today bad-talk the grading services and even refuse to buy or sell slabbed coins. I also find that these dealers typically overgrade the coins they are selling while saying that the grading services overgrade their coins. For me, I only purchase highly-graded or high-priced coins that have been slabbed. I prefer PCGS, but I have coins from NGC, ANACS, and CAC coins. But it is unfortunate that even the slabs are being counterfeited these days, so even buying a slabbed coin has its risks.
While prefer PCGS, I have all 3 mentioned above due to take it all bulk offers, deals, estates. Not one to make generalizations / just do primarily cost plus and research CPG, CF. Analyze each coin in terms of PQ, etc. Am a PCGS submitter. One regular bourse room customer, a really sharp para legal, she likes the bullion coins in the “pretty yellow” ANACS holders. Especially the Mexico Silver 1oz Libertads in MS69 & 70.
@sundance79 said:
This is a very interesting thread. I've been collecting since the 60's, long before the current number grading was in use or before PCGS, NGC, and others were even a dream. Interestingly, some dealers today bad-talk the grading services and even refuse to buy or sell slabbed coins. I also find that these dealers typically overgrade the coins they are selling while saying that the grading services overgrade their coins. For me, I only purchase highly-graded or high-priced coins that have been slabbed. I prefer PCGS, but I have coins from NGC, ANACS, and CAC coins. But it is unfortunate that even the slabs are being counterfeited these days, so even buying a slabbed coin has its risks.
Not only are slabs being counterfeited, counterfeit coins have made it into TPG holders. The main reason I like slabbed coin by PCGS is that there is a no bs guarantee of authenticity that comes with every coin slabbed by them. Counterfeit makes it into genuine PCGS holder, PCGS will come through with cold, hard cash for the hapless owner. Doesn't get any better than that. I have slabbed coins from other services (NGC, ANACS) but not sure about their guarantee. I really don't care about number grades too much and think collectors, in general, fuss about grading numbers too much.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
When my son was starting his senior year in college I needed to raise about $10K quickly before the school year started. I went to a big dealer in a NJ B&M with about 70 Morgan slabs. The dealer bought about 40 of them. He probably spent < 10 seconds looking at each coin. He bought about 90% of my PCGS slabs, > 50% of my NGC, and no ANACS slabs, and all were the old soap box holders. That's just the reality. I have bought coins in all the slabs if I like the coin and price. But selling, esp if trying to move quickly, PCGS matters.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
When my son was starting his senior year in college I needed to raise about $10K quickly before the school year started. I went to a big dealer in a NJ B&M with about 70 Morgan slabs. The dealer bought about 40 of them. He probably spent < 10 seconds looking at each coin. He bought about 90% of my PCGS slabs, > 50% of my NGC, and no ANACS slabs, and all were the old soap box holders. That's just the reality. I have bought coins in all the slabs if I like the coin and price. But selling, esp if trying to move quickly, PCGS matters to some collectors and dealers but not all.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
When my son was starting his senior year in college I needed to raise about $10K quickly before the school year started. I went to a big dealer in a NJ B&M with about 70 Morgan slabs. The dealer bought about 40 of them. He probably spent < 10 seconds looking at each coin. He bought about 90% of my PCGS slabs, > 50% of my NGC, and no ANACS slabs, and all were the old soap box holders. That's just the reality. I have bought coins in all the slabs if I like the coin and price. But selling, esp if trying to move quickly, PCGS matters.
The perception is PCGS graded pieces are always better.
Here is a test. Which of these coins do you think is better?
1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 1
1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 2
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
From the 3 TPG above one can pick out coins nice for the grade. The thing about generalizations they don’t consider the coin itself. I have no problem selling material of the 3 above either online or from my table at shows. I know how to grade and look at coins. Obviously the more big ticket the coin the more the holder thing will come into play. Anybody can do a test of 2 coins and then slant it their way based on what they picked out.
@slider23 said:
I would have to go with the NGC coin #2 as the strike is better, but there are some light scratches in the hair behind liberty's eyes.
I believe some of those are light adjustment marks. Adjustment marks don’t lower the technical grade because they are part of the minting process. They can lower the value, however, if they are severe and ugly.
I will see if there are any more comments, and then present mine by tomorrow or late today.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
One thing definitely makes me favor PCGS today is the chips. They are definitely an advantage against counterfeit, and hopefully they never find a way to counterfeit those.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Based on the pics I would give them both 62s. The so called better one on the bottom is a darker photo but also has more rim dings. Do those count off on these?
@privatecoin said:
One thing definitely makes me favor PCGS today is the chips. They are definitely an advantage against counterfeit, and hopefully they never find a way to counterfeit those.
I have figured out how to use the PCGS chip technology, and I will cover that in my counterfeit detection presentation at the upcoming Winter FUN Convention. I will be giving it at midday on Thursday.
Unfortunately, the Chinese have duplicated the Gold Shield slab. I don't know if it has a chip in it or if the chip works. Here is bogus coin in a bogus PCGS holder. If you think you can buy a coin that wholesales for almost $5,000 for $100, I got a deal on a bridge to Brooklyn for ya.
Here's the result on the cert verification site for for the coin with that serial number.
genuine PCGS slab and coin.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@privatecoin said:
One thing definitely makes me favor PCGS today is the chips. They are definitely an advantage against counterfeit, and hopefully they never find a way to counterfeit those.
I have figured out how to use the PCGS chip technology, and I will cover that in my counterfeit detection presentation at the upcoming Winter FUN Convention. I will be giving it at midday on Thursday.
Unfortunately, the Chinese have duplicated the Gold Shield slab. I don't know if it has a chip in it or if the chip works. Here is bogus coin in a bogus PCGS holder. If you think you can buy a coin that wholesales for almost $5,000 for $100, I got a deal on a bridge to Brooklyn for ya.
Here's the result on the cert verification site for for the coin with that serial number.
genuine PCGS slab and coin.
No doubt they've counterfeited the holder and label. Wish I could be at the fun convention for the story on the chips, definitely would be interesting to here.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
@Sonorandesertrat said:
If you have to ask this question, you haven't sold enough coins. The TPG and certain stickers will affect the liquidity of the item, and hence the price that you are likely to receive upon sale of it.
Buying is an entirely different matter. If you know what you are doing and have access to lots of coins (via the internet, at coin shows, etc.), then slabs/stickers are less important. In effect, you can become a cherrypicker as a buyer.
Per the above, it's all about perception. Many more people will consider buying a coin sight unseen (and buying a coin from an image is buying it sight unseen) if it has the 'right' sticker, holder, etc. In this day and age, many will think "if it doesn't have a sticker or in a particular holder, what's wrong with it?" I don't like it, but that's just how things are now. You either go with the flow, or have some unpleasant surprises when you sell your coins.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@BillJones said:
The perception is PCGS graded pieces are always better.
Here is a test. Which of these coins do you think is better?
1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 1
1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 2
The first 1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle is a PCGS graded MS-62. Heritage recently auctioned it for close to $500,000 including the buyers’ fee.
The second piece is an NGC graded MS-62. I doubt that the second piece would sell for as much because it’s NGC graded even though I think that it is nicer. This piece is rated as tied for the eighth finest known on the PCGS Coin Facts site.
Heritage called it the 11th finest known with the first piece rated higher.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Quote---
"Well rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, I would say that it is a reflection of the reputation that those TPGs earned foqr themselves over the years. At a local show on Sunday, I showed a dealer a 1921-S PCGS vf35 Walker with a green bean. His first comment was that it was overgraded and that he had no use for CAC's opinion. My response was "if the majority of the market prefers the bean, why wouldn't you want to sell what the market wants?""
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
I have had many dealers play this response when I offer them a coin.
Down play / pan on any positives. Looking discusted, not showing any emotional excitement. Get you to think your coin does not cut it. There making you think you should be offering at a lower price than you were thinking.
Move on------ offer to someone else who will respect your offer and pass, counter offer or pay. And not trash your coin and you and imply you know nothing and are ignorant. I have had a number of dealers get angry raising their voice swear at me for offering them a good coin like it's trash. Don't deal with such fools, they are not worth your time.
Their are dealers who are curteous and respectful, and maybe helpful out there.
The first 1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle is a PCGS graded MS-62. Heritage recently auctioned it for close to $500,000 including the buyers’ fee.
The second piece is an NGC graded MS-62. I doubt that the second piece would sell for as much because it’s NGC graded even though I think that it is nicer. This piece is rated as tied for the eighth finest known on the PCGS Coin Facts site.
Heritage called it the 11th finest known with the first piece rated higher.
The first 1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle is a PCGS graded MS-62. Heritage recently auctioned it for close to $500,000 including the buyers’ fee.
The second piece is an NGC graded MS-62. I doubt that the second piece would sell for as much because it’s NGC graded even though I think that it is nicer. This piece is rated as tied for the eighth finest known on the PCGS Coin Facts site.
Heritage called it the 11th finest known with the first piece rated higher.
Does either have CAC? Or do both?
Neither piece has a CAC sticker. I bought the second one before CAC existed.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
I love to cruise shows and look for coins in any holder available. If I am thinking of the "flip" -- PCGS rules for me. Yet the best undergraded dollar I have ever seen in my collecting life was an NGC. I missed it. The dealer wouldn't sell . .
As a "holder guy", I still look for the coin when I am on the 'collecting' side of my hobby. If it is a holder I am seeking -- well, you know the desires I have.
Coins rule. Holders are cool.
Drunner
(Doily Slut)
Certain coins will look better in an NGC holder, mostly due to the gasket surrounding the coin, although the new prong
gaskets are changing that factor. When I am dealing with varieties, I tend to use ANACS, since they do a better job
overall with attribution, and for many varieties, cost of encapsulation is an important consideration.
However, PCGS has won the PR battle over the past 20 years, for a variety of reasons. I agree with many previous
posters that for certain coins, you need PCGS plastic to obtain the best results (quicker sale, higher price, happier
customers. etc.) Just my experience.
IMO having a MS65 with a book value of (again for example) $500 (raw) fetch $445 in a ANACS holder, $490 in a NGC holder and $530 in a PCGS holder seems convoluted.
We all want the most money we can get for our coins, when the time comes to sell, and (again IMO) having coins in one holder (in identical grades) worth more than coins in someone else's holder (with exceptions of the "fly by nights") A: encourages people to buy the holder not the coin, and B: biases people to have their coins graded by the company that's holdered coins fetch the most money, regardless of what grading service is leading the market at that time.
As far as plastic, the old ANACS holders are the perfect size and the NGC holders are still too thick.
Even though there are more NGC 70's they do sell for more than a PCGS 69
<< <i>Sure, buy the coin, not the holder. Just realize that when it's time to sell your prize everyone will key in the holder. NO non-generic NGC coin is going to realize the same money as if that coin were in a PCGS holder. If you expect PCGS money for your NGC coins, then crack them out and get them in different holders. It's as simple as that. You can know how to grade and love your coins too. But that 2nd sentence above is still the law of the land. It's been that way since the mid-1990's. If you are getting 100% PCGS money for your NGC coins please tell us all how you do it because we'd love to know. I haven't been able to do it since 1990. First there was the 5-10% NGC discount and then it increased to up to 15% in 2007-2008. During 2009-2011 it was as high as 30-40%. Haven't done much selling the past 2 years but I suspect it's still at least 15-20%. >>
If you have a scarce coin and can find collectors who are generally interested in it because of something about it makes it special, the holder won't matter. There are very few coins like this. Imo, the hobby is more driven by people buying and selling coins than by people actually collecting them at present, so the odds are stacked against finding the right party / parties for the described scarce coin. It's all about marketing. The bells and whistles do matter, unless the buyer doesn't care if he is buried in a coin when buying it for whatever reason.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Thanks for posting the 2 coins above. But the grades given are within reason for each. The 1807 is definitely better struck.
I prefer the older toning vs the dipped look. But the technical grades are correct.
It should. But, the market reality is it doesn't....at least not for non-generic coins. The holder provides liquidity and other factors that affect the price. I cannot think of a single instance for 18th-19th-20th century choice and gem type (copper, silver, nickel and gold) since 1998 where the same coin in a PCGS holder wouldn't bring more money. While one could point to Newman as an example where NGC coins brought a ton of money, even record prices in some cases. They would have fetched more in the auction if in the identical graded PCGS holder. An NGC coin worth X, is worth X+premium in a PCGS holder. I know of no regularly traded US coins (1793-1964) that violate this....though I admit there might be a couple out there among thousands of transactions (ie <1-5% of the market place). You have to find a niche in the market where NGC grades tighter and the demand for their product exceeds PCGS. The fact that the PCGS registry is much stronger than NGC's also adds to the effect. Bring me any coin that I have owned, bid on, or just viewed on the bourse or auction floor in the last 40 years, and I would pay more for it in a PCGS holder (tens or hundreds of thousands of coins). Your mileage may vary if you collect stuff after 1964, foreign, medals, exonumia, SCD, colonials, etc. This is what my market area tells me. I no longer fight it....and play along with it. I really wish none of this was true because 85% of my collection from 1988-2008 was in NGC coins.
Edit: I thought of a single (non-generic) coin that I owned as an exception to the above. 1838 NGC MS67* half dime. That coin did bring 3X PCGS MS67 money at auction for me in 2009 because the coin was so nice. Even though it was 67+ quality all day long it never crossed on 3-4 attempts. I always felt the coin was a 68 candidate. That coin made it into the Gardner collection in 2009....and later upgraded to NGC MS68. So there was a coin that no matter how you sliced it, fetched the same or more in an NGC holder. The "star" system that is only offered at NGC and can result in some big price aberrations. Other than "star" coins, I cannot think of any exceptions....though some might consider the early fat NGC holders (black plastic or stenciled reverse gold logo) as exceptions too. On many nice coins the premium difference might be small enough as to be hardly noticed during negotiations (ie 3-10%). But, I submit it is always there. And the more expensive and lower pop a coin becomes, the larger the premium that tends to be associated with it. Look at MS65 seated or trade dollars for example - MS65 bust halves is another good one.
I suck at it. And I think some coins will cross over and some won't.
Win-win.
If you buy a coin at a discount in another slab it stands to reason that when you sell the coin you should expect to give a discount also.
<< <i>One of the pleasures for me is to maintain registry sets where I post photographs and comments about each coin. I post on the NGC site because they accept PCGS and NGC coins. I don't post on the PCGS site because they won't take NGC. I don't even look at ANACS coins because you can't post those pieces to either site.
So far as tokens and medals go I'd rather have them raw. I only buy them in the slab if that is only way to get them. >>
I've had many pictures of ANACS coins posted in a Registry set. I plan on doing so again......when time allows. Simply upload the pictures and make your comments. You won't get any points but others can see the coin. But FWIW, I rarely state which holders my coins are in when all that matters is the quality of the coin. For those who have a problem buying coins outside of PCGS, well, they simply don't have the necessary grading skills to do so. They will never know if they're getting a square deal in whatever they buy. Not having the ability of measuring each quality a coin may possess leaves many at a disadvantage. They won't ever know 100% if they will get their return on a coin. Sure, many bank their trust in the most likeable holders but eventually, every coin will have to face the buyer who knows how to grade. And there are rejections on coins in all holders. The only drawback to coin grading by these grading companies is when they place a MS64 or 65 coin in a MS67 holder and that coin has an EDS strike. While I'll highly desire that coin, no way will I pay 67 money for it. But this rarely happens. But than again, an EDS coin is a rare encounter.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
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Everyone says buy the coin, not the holder. I subscribe to that, but there have been time frames where grading has been quite different among the various grading services. When I had a high grade (67 and 68) No Bands Mercury Dime set, NGC coins were routinely one point more generous in grading than PCGS. This was reflected in the market as well as being well known among the collectors of the series at that time (10 years ago).
One cannot fairly transpose those results to all series, but that was the situation at that time. The lingering effect is just one more reason that PCGS coins bring more money than other series. It is NOT true across all series, else there would be a different discount.
At the end of the day, if you desire to sell a coin, it will bring more money virtually every time in a PCGS holder of the same grade as the other services. Markets are efficient, and I do NOT believe it is publicity, but rather the experienced buyers and sellers who have created this dynamic. They have no other reason other than maximizing their own return. Just MHO
I do have a gripe with both though, as a collector it is too big of a hassle to get one slabbed as both are geared for dealers. ANACS is cheap and for the collector I would say but too many ownership changes......
Disclaimer : Never had a coin graded by a TPG, too much hassle.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
Well, the nickel came back AT, the proof seated quarter as "altered surfaces," and the 1866 also AT. 3 for 3....lol. Those opinions sort of ruined everything. I was able to sell them in the ANACS holders to Jim Halperin for slight losses on the nickel and proof quarter, and a little profit on the 1866 (Jim agreed it was an unc coin that ANACS hammered for the weak strike). They were still attractive coins as is. I was never able to figure out what was wrong with the proof but some I showed it to suggested it was lasered, maybe even expertly frosted. In any case it was a good lesson back in 2006/2007 why PCGS and NGC carry more weight than other TPG's.
Yes, it really matters who is grading the coin, whether it's 2014 or 2016.
When it comes to photographing coins in their holders… it doesn't matter.
I suck at it. And I think some coins will cross over and some won't.
Went from that to this...
Same coin, though.
"Experience is the teacher of all things" - Julius Caesar
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein
Do some dealers find it more difficult to sell an accurately graded coin simply because it was graded by NGC rather than PCGS? Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins? By ignoring NGC slabs at a coin show, you are ignoring about half of all certified coins and are probably overlooking some great buys on the basis you buy only PCGS slabs.
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Only if you're asking the same money that a PCGS coin would bring, and the coin in question is non-generic. Common date MS64 Morgans and Saints bring the same money (ie sight-unseen traded coins).
Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins?
In a nut shell, yes...assuming you're expecting PCGS level money. Even in the pre-CAC days you had to discount non-generic NGC coins by 5-15%. It's a potentially different story for fresh old fatty holders, stars, and other positive NGC attributes. It's not a level playing field out there for 80-90% of the non-PCGS coins. That would only the case if all coins were cracked out of their holders.
+1
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This is a very interesting thread. I've been collecting since the 60's, long before the current number grading was in use or before PCGS, NGC, and others were even a dream. Interestingly, some dealers today bad-talk the grading services and even refuse to buy or sell slabbed coins. I also find that these dealers typically overgrade the coins they are selling while saying that the grading services overgrade their coins. For me, I only purchase highly-graded or high-priced coins that have been slabbed. I prefer PCGS, but I have coins from NGC, ANACS, and CAC coins. But it is unfortunate that even the slabs are being counterfeited these days, so even buying a slabbed coin has its risks.
While prefer PCGS, I have all 3 mentioned above due to take it all bulk offers, deals, estates. Not one to make generalizations / just do primarily cost plus and research CPG, CF. Analyze each coin in terms of PQ, etc. Am a PCGS submitter. One regular bourse room customer, a really sharp para legal, she likes the bullion coins in the “pretty yellow” ANACS holders. Especially the Mexico Silver 1oz Libertads in MS69 & 70.
ALERT - OLD THREAD RESURRECTION
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Not only are slabs being counterfeited, counterfeit coins have made it into TPG holders. The main reason I like slabbed coin by PCGS is that there is a no bs guarantee of authenticity that comes with every coin slabbed by them. Counterfeit makes it into genuine PCGS holder, PCGS will come through with cold, hard cash for the hapless owner. Doesn't get any better than that. I have slabbed coins from other services (NGC, ANACS) but not sure about their guarantee. I really don't care about number grades too much and think collectors, in general, fuss about grading numbers too much.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
When my son was starting his senior year in college I needed to raise about $10K quickly before the school year started. I went to a big dealer in a NJ B&M with about 70 Morgan slabs. The dealer bought about 40 of them. He probably spent < 10 seconds looking at each coin. He bought about 90% of my PCGS slabs, > 50% of my NGC, and no ANACS slabs, and all were the old soap box holders. That's just the reality. I have bought coins in all the slabs if I like the coin and price. But selling, esp if trying to move quickly, PCGS matters.
There fixed it for you.
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Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Those percentages sound spot on.
Wait for it - CACG.....................
The perception is PCGS graded pieces are always better.
Here is a test. Which of these coins do you think is better?
1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 1
1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 2
I would have to go with the NGC coin #2 as the strike is better, but there are some light scratches in the hair behind liberty's eyes.
The perception is PCGS graded pieces are always better. Here is a test. Which of these coins do you think is better?
It's easy to see that the second coin (1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle 2) is in better condition.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
From the 3 TPG above one can pick out coins nice for the grade. The thing about generalizations they don’t consider the coin itself. I have no problem selling material of the 3 above either online or from my table at shows. I know how to grade and look at coins. Obviously the more big ticket the coin the more the holder thing will come into play. Anybody can do a test of 2 coins and then slant it their way based on what they picked out.
I believe some of those are light adjustment marks. Adjustment marks don’t lower the technical grade because they are part of the minting process. They can lower the value, however, if they are severe and ugly.
I will see if there are any more comments, and then present mine by tomorrow or late today.
One thing definitely makes me favor PCGS today is the chips. They are definitely an advantage against counterfeit, and hopefully they never find a way to counterfeit those.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Based on the pics I would give them both 62s. The so called better one on the bottom is a darker photo but also has more rim dings. Do those count off on these?
They sure did on this MS62.
I have figured out how to use the PCGS chip technology, and I will cover that in my counterfeit detection presentation at the upcoming Winter FUN Convention. I will be giving it at midday on Thursday.
Unfortunately, the Chinese have duplicated the Gold Shield slab. I don't know if it has a chip in it or if the chip works. Here is bogus coin in a bogus PCGS holder. If you think you can buy a coin that wholesales for almost $5,000 for $100, I got a deal on a bridge to Brooklyn for ya.
Here's the result on the cert verification site for for the coin with that serial number.
genuine PCGS slab and coin.
No doubt they've counterfeited the holder and label. Wish I could be at the fun convention for the story on the chips, definitely would be interesting to here.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Per the above, it's all about perception. Many more people will consider buying a coin sight unseen (and buying a coin from an image is buying it sight unseen) if it has the 'right' sticker, holder, etc. In this day and age, many will think "if it doesn't have a sticker or in a particular holder, what's wrong with it?" I don't like it, but that's just how things are now. You either go with the flow, or have some unpleasant surprises when you sell your coins.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The first 1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle is a PCGS graded MS-62. Heritage recently auctioned it for close to $500,000 including the buyers’ fee.
The second piece is an NGC graded MS-62. I doubt that the second piece would sell for as much because it’s NGC graded even though I think that it is nicer. This piece is rated as tied for the eighth finest known on the PCGS Coin Facts site.
Heritage called it the 11th finest known with the first piece rated higher.
Quote---
"Well rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, I would say that it is a reflection of the reputation that those TPGs earned foqr themselves over the years. At a local show on Sunday, I showed a dealer a 1921-S PCGS vf35 Walker with a green bean. His first comment was that it was overgraded and that he had no use for CAC's opinion. My response was "if the majority of the market prefers the bean, why wouldn't you want to sell what the market wants?""
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I have had many dealers play this response when I offer them a coin.
Down play / pan on any positives. Looking discusted, not showing any emotional excitement. Get you to think your coin does not cut it. There making you think you should be offering at a lower price than you were thinking.
Move on------ offer to someone else who will respect your offer and pass, counter offer or pay. And not trash your coin and you and imply you know nothing and are ignorant. I have had a number of dealers get angry raising their voice swear at me for offering them a good coin like it's trash. Don't deal with such fools, they are not worth your time.
Their are dealers who are curteous and respectful, and maybe helpful out there.
Does either have CAC? Or do both?
@BillJones i agree the NGC example looks nicer. It would be the one of the two that I would buy if it was my choice.
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Both 62s lucky guess. Now that I have a full screen to look at would've put coin A at AU58 and the second Details.
I rarely do this, but you have got to be kidding. What is the basis of your “details” grade?
Neither piece has a CAC sticker. I bought the second one before CAC existed.