PCGS vs NGC vs ANACS, Does it really matter?
stevepk
Posts: 238 ✭✭✭
Why does everyone put so much emphasis on what company certifies a coin? As a collector, I know how to grade and buy slabbed coins for re-assurance that they are genuine and unaltered. I also like the fact certified coins are easier to sell. Some counterfeits are very well done and can potentially deceive an experienced collector. All three top tier grading services are known for exceptional counterfeit detection. I can look at a coin and determine for myself if it is worthy of the grade. Collectors and dealers will occasionally disagree with assigned grades by all of the top tier graders. With that being said, why is a coin sometimes worth more or less depending on whether it is certified by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS? I often see coins in NGC MS64 holders that look better than PCGS MS65 holders and ANACS MS62 holders that look better than PCGS or NGC MS63 holders. Why do some guides list different values for the same coin in different holders?
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<< <i>Why does everyone put so much emphasis on what company certifies a coin? As a collector, I know how to grade and buy slabbed coins for re-assurance that they are genuine and unaltered. I also like the fact certified coins are easier to sell. Some counterfeits are very well done and can potentially deceive an experienced collector. All three top tier grading services are known for exceptional counterfeit detection. I can look at a coin and determine for myself if it is worthy of the grade. Collectors and dealers will occasionally disagree with assigned grades by all of the top tier graders. With that being said, why is a coin sometimes worth more or less depending on whether it is certified by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS? I often see coins in NGC MS64 holders that look better than PCGS MS65 holders and ANACS MS62 holders that look better than PCGS or NGC MS63 holders. Why do some guides list different values for the same coin in different holders? >>
it's all about market perception. you may know how to accurately grade coins...but many collectors don't or they would rather rely on other's opinions. this is why there's a market for cac as well.
I plan to cross some of them to PCGS(registry). Buy the coin not the holder.
I think you can find examples of coins in different plastic that look better or worse than their counterparts in other plastic. I personally would not hesitate to purchase coins in NGC/ANACS/PCGS slabs and certainly would shop for the best coin without any concern for the plastic unless I really had a deep desire to cross it etc.
Buying is an entirely different matter. If you know what you are doing and have access to lots of coins (via the internet, at coin shows, etc.), then slabs/stickers are less important. In effect, you can become a cherrypicker as a buyer.
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working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
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<< <i>Because PCGS is better and more widely accepted. >>
Do some dealers find it more difficult to sell an accurately graded coin simply because it was graded by NGC rather than PCGS? Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins? By ignoring NGC slabs at a coin show, you are ignoring about half of all certified coins and are probably overlooking some great buys on the basis you buy only PCGS slabs.
My eyes are getting more trained and while you can always find some NGC graded coins to be better than PCGS, most of the time it is the other way around.
<< <i>Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins? By ignoring NGC slabs at a coin show, you are ignoring about half of all certified coins and are probably overlooking some great buys on the basis you buy only PCGS slabs. >>
I have only so much time at a coin show. I do look at NGC graded coins but only the old fatty slabs. Otherwise, I look at the PCGS slabbed coins. Otherwise, I miss half of the coins anyway!!
At auction, I will sometimes buy NGC slabbed coins but not often.
97% of my slabbed collection is PCGS 3% is NGC.
Trying to get the percentages to 98% and 2% but I keep finding the black NGC slabs and the all white NGC slabs which are awesome to find.
My Daniel Carr stuff is in ANACS. They do a nice job of attributing his issues.
<< <i>If you have to ask this question, you haven't sold enough coins. The TPG and certain stickers will affect the liquidity of the item, and hence the price that you are likely to receive upon sale of it.
>>
We know it is that way. The question is HOW did it get that way?
<< <i>I have bought both NGC and PCGS slabbed coins over the years. It is my definite opinion that PCGS has been more meticulous in their grading of their coins mostly beginning around 1996.
My eyes are getting more trained and while you can always find some NGC graded coins to be better than PCGS, most of the time it is the other way around. >>
Kind of wondered what NGC did to deserve the discount and disrespect, as I had a number of coins cert'd by them years ago, and thought the grading fairly accurate.
But when I was at a show on Sun, I saw a common date seated dollar in a recent NGC 50 holder that was positively disgusting. Dinged and marked up to the point of surface damage, scrubbed white with hairlines, no original luster remaining. I was mildly shocked to see this. I think the old Accugrade would've bagged that coin. Perhaps it was a counterfeit slab, but I doubt it. They would put a better coin than that in it
<< <i>
<< <i>Because PCGS is better and more widely accepted. >>
Do some dealers find it more difficult to sell an accurately graded coin simply because it was graded by NGC rather than PCGS? Half my collection is graded by NGC. Will I have a difficult time selling these accurately graded, eye appealing coins? By ignoring NGC slabs at a coin show, you are ignoring about half of all certified coins and are probably overlooking some great buys on the basis you buy only PCGS slabs. >>
I think the short answer to your first question is "yes."
Tom
Sellers rely on TPGs to increase sales to unskilled collectors. Which ones they rely on most are evident in the premium they ask for the individual holders.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you have to ask this question, you haven't sold enough coins. The TPG and certain stickers will affect the liquidity of the item, and hence the price that you are likely to receive upon sale of it.
>>
We know it is that way. The question is HOW did it get that way? >>
Human nature?
There are those who buy Chevy trucks, and wouldn't dream of buying a Ford. Some drink Coke, and hate Pepsi. Apple instead of IBM....IPhone instead of Android....Starbucks instead of the local coffee shop....
Sometimes, there may be really good reasons for the choices. Sometimes, I'm not so sure.
But it IS true that the prevailing perception has a big affect, even on those who don't necessarily believe there is a significant difference. Perception becomes reality.
If the bottom line is all that matters, keep the change.
It only matters when you go to sell.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>First off, there are only two top tier services; ANACS graded coins sell for raw. Some like PCGS, others NGC. Still others PCGS/NGC and CAC. Some do better in different series, some better in moderns, some better in world coins. It is essentially a duopoly at this point.
It only matters when you go to sell. >>
I have had far better luck is finding high quality coins with ANACS and PCGS than NGC. And most of the PCGS graded coins I have came from the cross grading of ANACS graded coins. But I look at the coin and not the holder. But I could point out several coins in PCGS holders that I would consider raw. There's just more label buyers for the two than ANACS mainly due to the Registry Set.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>First off, there are only two top tier services; ANACS graded coins sell for raw. Some like PCGS, others NGC. Still others PCGS/NGC and CAC. Some do better in different series, some better in moderns, some better in world coins. It is essentially a duopoly at this point.
It only matters when you go to sell. >>
If a PCGS graded coin sells for more than a like NGC graded coin then it stands to reason that you also pay more for PCGS graded coins.
So far as tokens and medals go I'd rather have them raw. I only buy them in the slab if that is only way to get them.
All else being equal, the market (the averaged voice of lots of people and their money) has decided that, for the grade, on average, PCGS holders are more likely to contain nice coins than the others.
This applies to averages, but certainly not to individual coins. Mistakes can be found in all holders. Grossly under or over-graded coins can be found in all holders. A diamond in the rough can be found in all holders. Each coin should be evaluated on its own merits. Prior to a transaction, the potential buyer must decide some things for himself.
Just don't expect your top-pop coin in an random holder to bring top prices, even if it deserves it. Perception of value, quality, and liquidity are all interrelated, but different things.
There's lots of money to be made by picking out really stellar coins in not-so-stellar holders at bargain prices, resubmitting them to get them in the "best" holders, and pocketing the difference. Any coin subject to to the public (and others trading wholesale or through a dealer) gets evaluated repeatedly for this opportunity. Some people with a good eye make their entire living this way. Over time, the best coins tend to "graduate" while the rest languish in the holder they started in.
Fair? Nope. Logical? Sometimes. Anything you can do about it? Not really. It only matters at buy time and at sell time. Otherwise they're just coins.
All one has to do is look at how many MS65 bust halves PCGS and NGC have graded and it's clear the standards are not the same. They couldn't possibly be. Both have seen about the same number of total MS CBH's.
And if the MS65 standards are not the same, what would that suggest above MS63 and MS64 CBH's?
We'd all like to think we can grade "like the TPG's." The bottom line is 95% of us can't, even if we have 10-20-30 years under our belts.
So yes....it really does matter. The ranking is as stated several times above 1. PCGS 2. NGC. 3. ANACS (essentially raw).
The rankings don't preclude you finding nicer coins in a less respected holder. Sure, I get it: "Buy the coin....not the holder." But, understand that when it comes time to sell, that holder (and assigned grade) tends to
drive the price. I've had to suffer through selling finest known, stickered pop 1's (between both services) that were not in the top holder. Those coins bought much less in those holders. And there was nothing I could do about it.
Yup, it makes no sense and it's not fair. And it's the way it currently is. Eventually, "someone" will get all those coin I sold into the top holder and recover those lost premiums. Some of them I tried up to 5X. No doubt, the 6th
time will be a charm.
<< <i>Unskilled collectors rely on TPGs for a professional opinion. Which ones they rely on most are evident in the premium paid for the individual holders.
Sellers rely on TPGs to increase sales to unskilled collectors. Which ones they rely on most are evident in the premium they ask for the individual holders. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Unskilled collectors rely on TPGs for a professional opinion. Which ones they rely on most are evident in the premium paid for the individual holders.
Sellers rely on TPGs to increase sales to unskilled collectors. Which ones they rely on most are evident in the premium they ask for the individual holders. >>
I disagree on so many levels. Let me start with "UNSKILLED"
All the grading services have their undergraded vs. overgraded coins.
It is all about market averages...
PCGS has the highest consistancy
then NGC
and finally ANACS.
However, we can not ignore market place reality. To get a realistic picture of this I refer to the CDN CMI in comparing TPG's. My 7-14-14 issue shows 82.77 for both PCGS and NGC. ANACS is at 65.04 and ICG at 65.90. If we look at Coin Facts it appears PCGS coins bring more money at auction for the most part. While like you I have felt the same thing I am moving towards 90-100% PCGS as their price gide, market share, and Coin Facts is superior. Sometimes I get a take it all or nothing deal with coins from all 4 TPG's and just make my offer accordingly based on what I think I can sell the material for.
Everybody has their opinion on which TPG is better with gold, type, itc. So do people on who is going to win the NCAA National Championship.
<< <i>While I agree with you, pcgs is where the money is. The others sell at a discount. If you want the most money for your coins put them in pcgs plastic. I have not heard of anyone that crosses from pcgs to ANACS. >>
<< <i>The standards are not always the same between the services. >>
Very true. My main specialties are high-end Mercs and Roosies, and PCGS is way tighter when
grading those series. All you need to do is consult the pop reports (and/or auction prices) to verify
that statement.
It's true of many other series as well, some more than others.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Actually, that is not true.
A quick check of eBay auction results proves otherwise, although they usually don't bring PCGS/NGC money. Take a peek.
Thanks, Dave
<< <i>I have coins in all three of those, but most of my coins are in PCGS holders.
I plan to cross some of them to PCGS(registry). Buy the coin not the holder. >>
+1
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>
<< <i>The standards are not always the same between the services. >>
Very true. My main specialties are high-end Mercs and Roosies, and PCGS is way tighter when
grading those series. All you need to do is consult the pop reports (and/or auction prices) to verify
that statement.
It's true of many other series as well, some more than others. >>
PCGS may be a bit tighter on grading (i.e., consistently lower numerical grade) , but PCGS is also WAY looser on attributing the full-band designation (because they look at only part of what NGC looks at).
You win some, lose some.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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For me the answer is easy: Yes.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>You do realize that a huge portion of this forum is PCGS dealers, fan boys and kool-aid drinkers, so asking this question here will not get you very many unbiased answers. >>
I was thinking the same thing....
While I'll fully admit that PCGS has the strongest reputation, and the highest probability that you'll "get what the label says you're gonna get", I've seen enough nice material in the "other guys" holders to NOT discount them entirely.
Nothing makes me shake my head more than the claim I've seen here that you should NEVER buy anything that, 1) Isn't in a PCGS holder, and 2) Isn't CAC certified. Seems some have given up, and turned their whole collecting life over to someone else!
Maybe I have the freedom to have this attitude because I usually buy in the circulated realm, where the difference between a VF and an XF is easier to identify than say the difference between an MS-65 and MS-66....
At above the $500 per coin level CAC tends to become more important. Again I'm talking about numismatic value, where there are large price differences for the next grade up or down, not $10 or $20 classic gold pieces with a large gold bullion value. A collector can scan the auction results for the coins that he/she collects, and the results often give an indication of how much the holder matters.
Eric
Edit: There is a space between "market acceptance" and "acceptable to me", as I am sure there is for you guys and gals.
However, as a dealer I prefer to buy PCGS coins for the same reason many others have stated: market perception. This factor trumps all others including actual "results/quality" from the services.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!