It's been 4 years since plus grading was introduced - your verdict?
Catbert
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Two Leading Grading Services Announce "Plus" Grading
- March 25, 2010
(Fort Worth, Texas) -- The Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) and Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), the rare coin market's two leading grading services, have announced the addition of "plus" grades to their grading services. The plus grades will be designated on the insert of the firms' holders with a "+" and will apply to high end examples of the grades 40 thru 68 (excluding grades 60 and 61). PCGS will start designating plus grades immediately and NGC will start designating plus grades within 60 days.
The joint announcement was issued on opening day of the American Numismatic Association National Money Show™ in Fort Worth, Texas on March 25, 2010.
PCGS founder David Hall stated, "The reality of the market place is that coins considered high end for the grade are recognized by sophisticated dealers and collectors and such coins are worth a premium in the marketplace. The term "plus" has been part of the everyday trading and grading lingo for years. The high end for any particular grade represents the top 30 percent of the scale within a grade and I estimate that the plus designation would apply to approximately 15 percent to 20 percent of the coins within any individual grade. For the market's two leading grading services to recognize this reality and designate these premium coins as part of their grading services is a huge benefit to all participants in the rare coin market."
NGC Chairman Mark Salzberg stated: "The coin marketplace has evolved in the nearly 25 years since NGC and PCGS began certifying coins, and this is a very logical progression. We have always been conscious of the variation within grades. By providing this information on the label in the plus format, it is communicated in a simple and direct way that allows these distinctions to be readily understood."
Don Willis further described plus grading in a December thread:
A Plus coin is a coin that is very high end for the assigned grade. The coin does not quite make it to the next grade but has superior qualities for the grade it's in. Some people call them sliders. Some call them PQ. The coin stands out.
Several factors go into determining whether a coin is Plus or not. Eye appeal such as beautiful toning is just one of several factors. Strike, luster, marks, originality and eye appeal all are part of the Plus decision. We could have used decimal grades but realized it would be too difficult and confusing in the market.
Plus coins already appear in the Pop report as well as Price Guide. Plus coins are also included in PCGS CoinFacts.
After a couple of years of market acclimation we have seen the demand for Plus coins take off. This is especially true for coins with big spreads and for pop top grades.
Now for my questions!
1) From your vantage point, do you believe that plus grading has recognized the attributes that Don describes above from the coins you've seen?
2) Has plus grading achieved it's objective of granting a premium to these coins?
3) Would you pay this premium for the coins you collect?
4) Do you believe plus grading has been a net positive for the hobby or not?
- March 25, 2010
(Fort Worth, Texas) -- The Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) and Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), the rare coin market's two leading grading services, have announced the addition of "plus" grades to their grading services. The plus grades will be designated on the insert of the firms' holders with a "+" and will apply to high end examples of the grades 40 thru 68 (excluding grades 60 and 61). PCGS will start designating plus grades immediately and NGC will start designating plus grades within 60 days.
The joint announcement was issued on opening day of the American Numismatic Association National Money Show™ in Fort Worth, Texas on March 25, 2010.
PCGS founder David Hall stated, "The reality of the market place is that coins considered high end for the grade are recognized by sophisticated dealers and collectors and such coins are worth a premium in the marketplace. The term "plus" has been part of the everyday trading and grading lingo for years. The high end for any particular grade represents the top 30 percent of the scale within a grade and I estimate that the plus designation would apply to approximately 15 percent to 20 percent of the coins within any individual grade. For the market's two leading grading services to recognize this reality and designate these premium coins as part of their grading services is a huge benefit to all participants in the rare coin market."
NGC Chairman Mark Salzberg stated: "The coin marketplace has evolved in the nearly 25 years since NGC and PCGS began certifying coins, and this is a very logical progression. We have always been conscious of the variation within grades. By providing this information on the label in the plus format, it is communicated in a simple and direct way that allows these distinctions to be readily understood."
Don Willis further described plus grading in a December thread:
A Plus coin is a coin that is very high end for the assigned grade. The coin does not quite make it to the next grade but has superior qualities for the grade it's in. Some people call them sliders. Some call them PQ. The coin stands out.
Several factors go into determining whether a coin is Plus or not. Eye appeal such as beautiful toning is just one of several factors. Strike, luster, marks, originality and eye appeal all are part of the Plus decision. We could have used decimal grades but realized it would be too difficult and confusing in the market.
Plus coins already appear in the Pop report as well as Price Guide. Plus coins are also included in PCGS CoinFacts.
After a couple of years of market acclimation we have seen the demand for Plus coins take off. This is especially true for coins with big spreads and for pop top grades.
Now for my questions!
1) From your vantage point, do you believe that plus grading has recognized the attributes that Don describes above from the coins you've seen?
2) Has plus grading achieved it's objective of granting a premium to these coins?
3) Would you pay this premium for the coins you collect?
4) Do you believe plus grading has been a net positive for the hobby or not?
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"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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My experience has been only with PCGS graded coins.
I'd prefer .3, .6, or .9 after any numerical grade. That's what it's about anyway. Increments and "tweeners"
Rob
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At first I thought the + grade was simply a designation for coins that fell in between two whole grades.
But when I looked at PCGS summary documentation on grades (shown below), I noticed that the + grades always mentioned "eye appeal", where the non-plus grades do not.
So it seems to me that PCGS + graded coins would not only need to be in between 2 grades but also exhibit unusually great eye appeal.
It's interesting that NGC uses both + and
+ can be reserved for "grade tweeners" and the
PCGS seems to have mushed (combined) both of these things into a single symbol ... the + symbol.
So an NGC +
Because to get a PCGS + grade the coin has to both
1. fall in between 2 grades AND
2. have superior eye appeal,
PCGS + grades are actually pretty rare in the scheme of things.
I only have 3 PCGS + graded coins out of over 300 PCGS graded coins in my collection (1%) ...
PCGS PR64+BN
PCGS MS63+
PCGS MS64+
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Well, the idea of recognizing premium coins is kinda why it was created, so-yes. Has it done so consistently and accurately? Meh.
2) Has plus grading achieved it's objective of granting a premium to these coins?
It has achieved the objective of granting a premium to coins with a + on the label; whether all of them are truly deserving...well, that's a different debate.
I can state that it has definitely hurt the value of coins lacking said + on the label, stigmatizing them as somehow inferior.
3) Would you pay this premium for the coins you collect?
I pay premiums based on the merits of the coin itself, not for little symbols on the label that infer I should pay a premium.
4) Do you believe plus grading has been a net positive for the hobby or not?
Not necessarily a positive or negative. Just another facet of it imo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Is this grade increment good for the hobby? It certainly is for those in the business end of the hobby. Where collectors are concerned, I am not sure.
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Plus grading is a lot better than moving to a 100-point grading scale which was also seriously considered. In comparison, the 100 point scale would have meant tearing up the entire pool, and closing it. Forcing all swimmers to pay a heavy fee to still participate in order to to build a new pool that had some fancy features for the deep end, with the shallow end mostly the same, but much less familiar, and more difficult to get into. So compared to that alternative, plus grading is a huge success.
<< <i>The TPGs, especially our host are focusing more and more on the deep pocket end of the collector pool. I don't play in the deep end. Plus grading is like a new water slide or diving platform for the deep end. While interesting, it is mostly for those with more money, experience and skill than I have.
Plus grading is a lot better than moving to a 100-point grading scale which was also seriously considered. In comparison, the 100 point scale would have meant tearing up the entire pool, and closing it. Forcing all swimmers to pay a heavy fee to still participate in order to to build a new pool that had some fancy features for the deep end, with the shallow end mostly the same, but much less familiar, and more difficult to get into. So compared to that alternative, plus grading is a huge success. >>
that was well said. I have not noticed plus grading nor CAC in my collecting activities, do not own the slabs or stickers, heck have never seen them in person.
content over here in baggy trunks on the 1M board doing jackknifes, swans, and the occasional somersault or even one-and-a-half, but will leave the fancy speedos and triple lindies to those more qualified
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2) Has plus grading achieved it's objective of granting a premium to these coins?
3) Would you pay this premium for the coins you collect?
4) Do you believe plus grading has been a net positive for the hobby or not?
My Answer:
1. I believe plus grading has achieved the goals set out by Don and has been an excellent move by PCGS. I refer to the plus grade values on a frequent basis in the PCGS priceguide. I believe plus graded coins are a positive thing for numismatics and the coin business. No two Slabbed coins graded the same grade are (always) alike where they fall in the grade range and I tend to view them as A (PQ), B (SQ - solid quality) and C (average quality). The plus grading brings out this fact. When I first started taking table at shows everybody knew to price PQ coins (or keeper coins) at a higher price than average quality material.
2. I price plus graded coins at a premium and any other coin which I consider PQ or high end for the grade. Coins which are PQ or high end have always been a reality in the market place trading more than average quality material. The TPG's assigning the plus grade is their recognition of this reality. I believe years ago NGC internally designated coins they graded as A-B-C. At about that time I took up this concept in evaluating coins in auctions plus material offered at my table both in buying and pricing for retail.
3. I will bid a premium for any high end or PQ coins whether in a plus holder or not. I know how to grade and look at coins and will bid / price for retail sale accordingly. For example on a group of 10 PCGS MS65 common date Morgan Dollars (no plus grades) brought to my table by an investor, in calculating my offer for the lot I based the purchase on (105% of CDN Bid for the PQ pieces, 80% of CDN Bid for the B pieces, and 65% of CDN bid on the average material doing some sideline mental math). This guy was wanting to sell all as one lot (no cherry picking), I had the highest offer in the bourse room which he took. For retail I priced the A pieces at CDN Bid + 55%, B pieces at CDN + 40%, and C pieces at CDN plus 20% and put them out in my case.
4. Plus coins are a plus for numismatics and provide one an incentive to crack say OGH issues one considers having upgrade potential. If it does not make the next higher grade then it may make a plus grade. I have done this frequent with Wlalkers, Commems, Dollars, and Gold. I retail plus graded coins on a regular basis both at shows and online realizing at least the PCGS Price guide price for plus material or more. I have found it difficult to keep plus graded coins in inventory as these pieces are highly valued by astute collector / investors including myself. One Friday morning (before they let the public in the door) at a large show I spotted a really PQ PCGS 58 1890-CC (this was before plus grading) Double Eagle priced about 10% above bid at a dealers table and immediately bought it. I immediately pasted a price sticker on it based on my cost plus 15% and put it in my display case on top of some Gem CU Large Size National Banknotes in the Mylar D Holders (from Denlys) and it did not last two hours after the public came in the doors selling to a collector from New Mexico. He also bought one of the Gem CU large size nationals, a $20 Denomination. PQ coins are certainly a reality and the TPG's are recognizing this with the plus grade.
<< <i>I have some "plus" coins in my collection, but overall, it has had little impact on how I go about doing things. If I were in a heated Saint, Walker, or Morgan dollar registry competition, I might respond differently. I would agree that from what I have seen, the "plus" coins are consistently nicer than the average coins for the grade.
My experience has been only with PCGS graded coins. >>
<< <i>Another + coin I bought yesterday ... showing the requisite combination of "grade tweener" and "superior eye appeal" ...
That's a fine example of a + coin for the eye appeal and "on the cusp" of the next grade up.
better than expected. It has been helpful.
i understand the idea was to make the plus grade truly sight unseen and it appears not to have completely worked out that way as hoped?
I've only ever seen a few...
1. My overall impression is inconsistency. More often than I would have expected, I see coins with + and my reaction is "why?". Just as often I see coins without a + and my reaction is "why not?". In this regard it is absolutely no different than the never-ending debate about coin grades and people who have opinions. It's just another layer of that discussion.
2. I'm shocked at how rarely I see circulated coins of any grade with a +.
3. I'm very surprised at how often a + has only minor effect on prices in auctions. I never expected a + to split the price difference to the next numeric grade for 'widgets', but it frequently seems to only move prices from Bid to Ask. That strikes me as great value.
I still have yet to own an NGC "star" coin, too (but I'm hoping my latest avatar has a shot at that when submitted). And I only recently bought my first coin with a CAC green bean on it.
Boy, that Columbian half is a moose!
Yes. I've seen mostly "nice for the grade" coins in + holders. Most are wildly toned but there are some BLAST white coins that receive the +.
2) Has plus grading achieved it's objective of granting a premium to these coins?
I haven't seen much of a premium when compared to a CAC stickered coin. There very well might be one, but I don't pay that close attention to it as I don't do registry sets and such.
3) Would you pay this premium for the coins you collect?
No I would not pay a premium. I'll buy the coin, thank you.
4) Do you believe plus grading has been a net positive for the hobby or not?
Other than maybe a slight price increase (a negative for a lot), I think it's a slight positive. I mean it does take some of the skill/game out of collecting by telling us "Hey, this coin is REALLY nice for a 64, but not quite a 65".
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I own one plus coin, a Seated Dime. It is in a PC6 holder and is a 'shot' coin. With respect to what I perceive to be the quality of MS 66 Liberty Nickels I have seen in plus holders, I have noticed very little difference between those coins and coins with the green bean. Would not pay a premium for these coins. Can't address other series and grades with respect to the plus holders.
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In Peace Dollars (my series), the key dates make that jump between MS64 and MS65. The most important would be the 1925-S ,1928-S and perhaps the 1924-S and 1927-S.
The current Price Guide is like this for MS64 / MS64+ / MS65:
1924-S: $1,500 / $2,850 / $7,950
1925-S: $1,100 / $2,750 / $21,000
1927-S: $1,350 / $2,750 / $11,000
1928-S: $1,600 / $3,500 / $20,000
Here, the market has been interesting. When the plus system was first introduced, nicer 1925-S or 1928-S in 64+ could be had for $1,500 or so. This was true even up to maybe 2 years ago. Now, only ugly ones are selling at the values I listed above. A really nice 64+ 25-S will go for $5k and a nice 64+ 28-S will sell for maybe $6-8k. Over the past year or two auction prices realized for these "plus" coins have doubled or tripled. Some of this has been the general strength of the Peace dollar market but much more of it has been increased confidence in the significance of the plus attribution.
These were a bargain a couple years ago and might still be today. A little flattening of the curve at the insane price jump isn't all bad, especially when there is really not that much difference in eye appeal between one grade.
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It has hurt the sight-unseen market. I have seen coins with spots get the plus grade. I think sometimes the graders put a Plus on a coin to force it to trade sight-unseen, where if would be rejected otherwise. If I see a lousy coin with spots in a plus holder I and others dealers will not be aggressive in our sight-seen bid. The rule is that a Plus-graded coin will trade sight-unseen at a sight-seen bid. So it is slowly tamping down aggressive bidding.
Coins that should get, say, a MS65 grade are now getting MS64+. This hurts the submitters.
The sight-unseen rule for Plus-graded coins need to be scrapped. It is hurting the market. The small benefit in liquidity is not worth it.
ALERT! Bumping my 8 year old thread.
For the competitive registry crowd, plus grading is another incentive. @winesteven is a perfect example of a collector who places a high value on obtaining the plus grade for his registry sets. It also has unlocked some value for collectors, dealers, and certainly the TPGs.
I like my plus coins, but I'd prefer them to be the next grade up
I don't seek them out nor do I resubmit my coins that I think may be deserving.
Any further thoughts from the peanut gallery regarding this evolution in the hobby 12 years after its introduction?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Shall we discuss the contradiction of a PCGS Plus grade that does not CAC. Difference of opinion, or something more technical...different standards on luster, surface appearance?
I’d prefer a grade of 58+ over a grade of 60
Mr_Spud
Actually, my thoughts are very similar to yours. I only own five or so plus coins so like you not something that I am seeking specifically most of the time. I did just add two plus coins because I will never be able to afford the next grade up so the plus was the last stop for me. The bulk of my collection was bought before the plus started and I have never submitted a coin for a regrade or reconsideration (or whatever term is used), I guess a few could get a plus but I doubt that it would be worth the cost of trying in most cases for me.
I substitute the green bean instead, the coins that I have sent to CAC and have beaned I see those as close to or the same as having the plus grade, far less expensive than resubmitting too.
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As a collector with several MS/PR70 coins I was worried about how many would actually come back as 100. Would they have paid out on the lost value when a coin came back as a 98 instead of a 100? I felt like changing to a 100 scale would have been a disaster for anybody that had 70s. So I think the plus idea was a great alternative. I have a few coins in + grade holders, so I am buying into them. I was thinking of just quitting my collection if they had changed to the 100 scale. I do collect other things which could have been expanded upon if I had dropped coin collecting.
It could be as simple as the coin developed some dip stain, PVC or putty residue that was not evident when the coin was originally graded.
My Collection of Old Holders
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Yes, but also could be a grading standard difference such as a MS vs AU decision where the TPG will grade a coin MS with slight friction and CAC won't sticker the coin if they feel it's no higher than an AU. Besides, CAC doesn't take into consideration the plus designation.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Best combination is a CAC sticker with a plus grade. Doesn’t get much better even though this type of coin may not sell much in excess of the plus price.
Bingo!
Plus is a 1/2 step higher technical grade.
CAC is for luster & does not indicate a higher degree of preservation.
Very obvious if you collect saints.
For the record, I very much like + coins & think PCGS does a pretty good job assigning them.
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I think it was an alternative to the 100 point scale that was floated around.
Martin
a
Below (at bottom) I copied and pasted the cac definition of an approved coin and the pcgs definition of a plus coin.
So I think what bothers some is that between the two definitions it would appear that a plus coin is a higher standard than a cac approved coin. I would agree based on the stated definitions. So when a plus coin does not get approved by cac there is a 'what's going on here' type of thing.
My view is that at the core of grading by pcgs, ngc and then cac that they are very similar and this is what for the most part keeps grades fairly consistent. I do recognize the upgrades, down grades and the spectacular happenings sometime but in general I believe mostly consistent.
However, think of a shell around that core, this is where the grading can and I believe does have its differences between the three. As noted by others there can be more or less emphasis on a particular aspect of grading that can influence a final grade up or down a little from that core grade - the shell.
So a 65+ might be a 65 at its core but has a feature (strike, luster...) that a TPG has more emphasis on (the shell). Therefore it gets a bump to a plus. Fast forward to cac and at the core they believe it is a 65 but the feature of that TPG is not that of cac necessarily (but it could be). If the emphasis of cac or the shell is not present on the coin, then cac may say C coin - don't see our shell emphasis on the coin and therefore not get approved.
One final note and that is that grading has some inconsistencies and so this can always play a part at times in TPG and yes even cac. There are coins that are on the border line or grey area that could move up or down on a second evaluation. But that is another story.
From CAC website:
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker.
From PCGS website:
Plus Grades
"Plus Grades" exhibit exceptional eye appeal for the grade and constitute the top 30% of the coins in the grade.
Only XF-45 through MS/PR-68 are eligible for Plus grades. Numerically, this includes 45, 50, 53, 55, 58, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, & 68.
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As @Catbert mentioned shortly above as he resurrected this post from eight years ago, my collection consists of a relatively very high percentage of coins with plus grades. In no particular order, here are some comments/thoughts:
Feel free to click on the hotlink in my signature below to see my Dansco 7070 with Gold - 69 coins are eligible for a plus, and 44 of those 69 have the plus (63%).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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Here are my comments when I presented some of my coins for the BCCS centerfold a few years ago. I still believe what I wrote here!
I completed my AU58 set of Barber Halves around 5 years ago. Since then I have been aggressively trying to upgrade my AU58’s to AU58+. What a challenge it is! As of this writing PCGS has graded a total of 99 Barber Halves in AU58+. Of those 36 are POP 1 coins. There are still 12 dates that have never received a grade of AU58+.
I have yet to figure out what it takes to make an AU58+. According to PCGS’s definition it is the top 30% for the grade. After going through many submissions I do not think this rule is followed. The 1892 in my set took 5 attempts through reconsideration before it finally received a well deserved +. In my biased opinion it should have received a + on the 1st attempt. I have finally come to the conclusion that trying to make an AU58+ is akin to yanking on a one armed bandit in a casino!
10 of the 12 coins pictured here are POP 1 coins. I have a digital album where all my coins can be viewed here: https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-barber-half-dollars-1892-1915/album/93006 If anyone is able to offer me an AU58+ I need I will be thrilled to make you a very strong offer!
Yes to all 4 questions.
Plus grading identifies coins that are PQ and assigns a value to them. Plus Coins have always been good sellers off the bourse for me. Buyers recognize their superior value plus view them as supper additions to their numismatic investment portfolio.
In my view: Plus coins highly recommended for investment!
It would seem that this thread (now) is split by two types, those who consider coins an investment and those who are coin collectors. Nothing wrong with either approach just different goals, the only thing I know is that nobody knows what will happen with coin collecting in the future.
With gradeflation still on the run and new and higher top pops being "made" everyday spending money now for reconsideration may put the coin owner in a great position or it may lead to more grading costs in the future to keep up.
My Collection of Old Holders
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I think it has been great for grading companies. A large number of
coins have been re-submitted in the search for plus upgrades.
I think some dealers have aggressively priced plus coins at prices near the market price for the next grade up. Plus grading has benefited a lot of these dealers.
I remain unconvinced that plus grading has been good for most collectors.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
The only way it affects me is needing to scroll more for the ATS pop report. Having Plus and Stars leads to a lot of grades!
It saddened me that I now have to pay a premium for coins I didn't back in the day. Plus, Star, didn't benefit me.
Is it just me, but I notice that it was much easier for me to resubmit coins and get a + grade two or three years ago than it is right now.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
Lots of variables depending on series, coin, condition, popularity etc. to make a general statement IMO.
If I had to make a general statement right now about + coins I would say they continue to sell at a premium because there are too many buyers chasing too few choice coins.