If it is not a Topps factory cut card, then I'm not interested. All others to me are just altered cards no matter if it is hand cut, laser cut, machine cut or 10 year old cut.
Topps factory cut only at the time the card was manufactured or bust!
<< <i>I am a CPA, we do background checks on all of our potential clients >>
<< <i>I have several 1975 Topps sets. I do not want sheet cut cards to ruin the integrity of those sets >>
funny, my wife is also a CPA ... and I've heard ALL the stories from work ... but this is the first time I've heard a place doing THAT to customers ... FIRST ... I guess thats the era we live in & nobody is ashamed of it ... she has always worked in smaller firms, so if you are from the big 4 or whatever it is nowadays ... maybe customers need to do a background check on YOU ALL LOL ... the bigger the firm, man, the worse of a job ... thats because they have a 15 minute budget to do a tax return ... trust me, I know ALL about CPA places
as far as your integrity ... dont buy them ... that simple or is it the possibilty that they would do well on the open market & THEN what ? Oh Oh
not sure if anyone has stated the "reasons" but why are 1984 nestle cards ok to be slabbed by PSA ? they were only in sheet form and they are labled as hand cut
are we now down to one sheet is better than another ???
<< <i>not sure if anyone has stated the "reasons" but why are 1984 nestle cards ok to be slabbed by PSA ? they were only in sheet form and they are labled as hand cut
are we now down to one sheet is better than another ??? >>
I may be wrong but I believe those were never inserted into packs. So again, if they were only ever intended to be cut from a sheet and not by the factory, they are graded. But collectors realize this when they buy a slabbed nestle card. They don't have to wonder if its a sheet-cut nestle or a 1984 pack-pulled Nestlé.
<< <i>It seems like the discussion is getting off track. The OPs original question-- and I think it's a very good one- is whether board members have always looked down on sheet cut cards, or if this is the conclusion you came to only after learning that PSA would not grade them. If your answer is 'b'- and my suspicion is that this would be the correct answer for the overwhelming majority of board members, whether they care to admit it or not- then why did PSA's opinion change your opinion? >>
+1. I think it's an interesting question. It's particularly interesting to me because I personally don't have a problem sheet-cut cards and wonder if grading company policies have influenced peoples' perspective on this matter. That is, before there were grading companies and resulting $5-20K examples of what previously were are most $100-200 cards, sheet cut cards may not have been an issue to most. So with the potentially huge dollars at stake, I can appreciate people desiring everyone be on a level playing field. I get that. It's just not an issue to me.
I'm also a big fan of uncut sheets. I have uncut sheets from the late 1970s and 1980s. Most of the big rookie cards from Murray and Molitor to Ken Griffey 1989 UD, and some oddball sheets like Hostess. But I like the novelty of these being on sheets. I certainly view them as real cards and not "depictions of a real card" because, well, they are real cards. They were just never cut. And they won't be. At least not by me.
But going back to the original question, I believe the focus intended to be on whether you have always been critical of sheet-cut cards, assuming you are critical of them now. I agree that the wording and use of all caps, intentional or not, started off on a confrontational tone.
This is a legitimate conversation. I'll add my two cents.
I think, currently, there's entirely too much emphasis placed on TPGers. I'm not saying they're bad, quite the contrary. I never purchased from mailing lists growing up so, aside from my LCS, all of my hobby purchases have been online and predominantly through ebay. I have to imagine that TPGers have done wonders for these types of purchases, taking much of the guess work out of buying from strangers without having the card in your hand to be examined. TPGers offer an objective opinion based on their stated guidelines and, as long as you're familiar with how they each define their guidelines, you've got a pretty good idea of what you'll be receiving when the card shows up. I don't know about any of you, but I'm quite thankful for that.
Now, there are certainly differences between the TPGers in terms of what they're willing to grade, what criteria exist for their grades, how they grade them, etc. As far as I'm concerned, that's fine. As long as all of that information is stated on their website so I know how they do things. For me personally, how do I feel about sheet cut cards? I think I tend to side with PSA's POV on them. Would that be different if I were aware of sheet cut cards before I became aware of PSA's POV? I suppose I can't deny the possibility of that. But there's also no way for me to definitively answer that hypothetical.
I'll say this, someone previously mentioned the analogy of 1952 Topps printing plates and the OP disqualified that analogy by pointing out that he stated "original printing" as a prerequisite to the conversation. The problem with this is that now the OP (sorry, I don't know your name) has created his own set of qualifiers the same way each of the TPGers establish their own set. To the OP, an original printing is the starting/stopping point for what should be legitimate (my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your POV). Nothing wrong with that. It seems PSA has decided that original printing AND original cutting is their starting/stopping point for legitimacy in this particular area. I tend to agree with this POV. I would want my cards to have gone through the same obstacles to get to me that a card issued for public consumption went through back whenever they were issued. I believe that there should be both an original printing AND an original factory cutting.
And to everyone that is horrified by sheet cut cards, if you're collecting high grade/high dollar cards, chances are good that you've got a sheet cut card or two in your collection (no matter which TPGer you subscribe to).
<< <i>if they were only ever intended to be cut from a sheet and not by the factory, they are graded. But collectors realize this when they buy a slabbed nestle card. They don't have to wonder if its a sheet-cut nestle or a 1984 pack-pulled Nestlé. >>
I think we are really splitting hairs & all it has to do with, is a companies willingness to add a note, as they already do with other sheets
I think this is really about one company trying to make its mark, from a different company (right or wrong) But I think in the process, collectors lose a little
<< <i>if you are grading it as authentic, then the whole point has been missed
the point was to grade it in the standard way (for its condition 1-10) ... and THEN assign hand cut
not authentic ... that implies altared ... "not worthy" >>
We might be talking in circles Sheet cuts, whether you like them or not, cannot be graded by PSA under their current grading standards. Because they feel (I could be wrong I suppose) that to receive a numerical grade, certain conditions must be met. Namely, that the card came from a traditional method of production and distribution, and therefore all cards graded UNDER THESE STANDARDS, were potentially subjected to the same condition obstacles.
You sheet cut card could be slabbed but like others have said, cutting a card with a laser in 2013 is very different from cutting it with the blades used in the factory. So grading it then putting a sheet cut designation as you suggested, couldn't happen together
<< <i>not sure if anyone has stated the "reasons" but why are 1984 nestle cards ok to be slabbed by PSA ? they were only in sheet form and they are labled as hand cut
are we now down to one sheet is better than another ??? >>
It's the intent of the cut. If the card was part of a box bottom, then the intent is to cut them. I do not know of the Nestle sheets, but I can guess they either came in a box or were a mail order. It was cheaper not to include the cutting at the factory or the intent was to give them out as sheets and then have the end user cut them. Sheets of trading cards sold as sheets of trading cards were intended to be sheets of trading cards - not do it yourself wax packing.
I fail to see the logic behind PSA or SGC or BVG or Bob's grading 'dictating' the market. I applaud them for their vigilance. I also fail to see any advantage to be gained by marking sheet cuts as such. When I hear of a 1975 George Brett graded 10 I think of a pack card. If I saw - CUT FROM SHEET printed on the label, it wouldn't be worth the plastic in the slab. It is not truly 'authentic' as defined by the hobby as a whole.
Grading companies were founded and started grading to reduce if not eliminate the fraud that can very easily be created within the hobby. While there may be collector's of sheet cuts, and they have their own little niche, they should not complain that the 3rd party graders will not grade such. It just opens up too much of a Pandora's box. They are bowing to the wishes of the industry, not the other way around.
Collecting Topps Baseball: 1966-present base sets Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
<< <i>I'll say this, someone previously mentioned the analogy of 1952 Topps printing plates and the OP disqualified that analogy by pointing out that he stated "original printing" as a prerequisite to the conversation. The problem with this is that now the OP (sorry, I don't know your name) has created his own set of qualifiers the same way each of the TPGers establish their own set. To the OP, an original printing is the starting/stopping point for what should be legitimate (my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your POV). Nothing wrong with that. It seems PSA has decided that original printing AND original cutting is their starting/stopping point for legitimacy in this particular area. I tend to agree with this POV. I would want my cards to have gone through the same obstacles to get to me that a card issued for public consumption went through back whenever they were issued. I believe that there should be both an original printing AND an original factory cutting. >>
Not really sure how to answer this, as I believe there is an issue with "star" going ahead & printing some more 80's cards ?? I really cant defend those slabbed BGS cards, as I dont know
what about the stories of 1989 UD Griffeys (2nd prints) ?
what I am talking about is the original printing, at the original time, on the original cardstock .......... having the plates and going at it again years later is not the same thing
<< <i>I'll say this, someone previously mentioned the analogy of 1952 Topps printing plates and the OP disqualified that analogy by pointing out that he stated "original printing" as a prerequisite to the conversation. The problem with this is that now the OP (sorry, I don't know your name) has created his own set of qualifiers the same way each of the TPGers establish their own set. To the OP, an original printing is the starting/stopping point for what should be legitimate (my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your POV). Nothing wrong with that. It seems PSA has decided that original printing AND original cutting is their starting/stopping point for legitimacy in this particular area. I tend to agree with this POV. I would want my cards to have gone through the same obstacles to get to me that a card issued for public consumption went through back whenever they were issued. I believe that there should be both an original printing AND an original factory cutting. >>
Not really sure how to answer this, as I believe there is an issue with "star" going ahead & printing some more 80's cards ?? I really cant defend those slabbed BGS cards, as I dont know
what about the stories of 1989 UD Griffeys (2nd prints) ?
what I am talking about is the original printing, at the original time, on the original cardstock .......... having the plates and going at it again years later is not the same thing
again ... edited for typos .... as always >>
I think I understand what you're saying. Like I said, if not, I apologize. My point was just that you've decided that original printing but NOT original cutting is how you define legitimacy in this area and PSA (and myself) believe it should be original printing AND original cutting. Just a different point of view. While you may not like that PSA defines legitimacy the way they do, I';m sure there would be a lot of people that wouldn't like the way you define legitimacy in this area. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. Any time there's one set of definitive guidelines there's always going to be a group (or groups) that disagree with those guidelines. I think the important thing, above all of this, is that we know a TPGer's guidelines ahead of time so we can be informed and aware of what it is we're buying and collecting. I believe that's the case with each of the big three TPGers, in regard to this issue.
what I believe, is that it doesnt matter when it was cut or by who as long as the product is the same as the rest (same ink, paper, printing, time) but thats just me
as far as guidelines .... these are just man made & can be man changed ANY time
<< <i>Did you guys know that Al Roker crapped his pants at the White House? >>
Did he really? Was it just a shart or a full on crap running down his leg? Now let me ask a serious question that might ruffle a few feathers. If someone were to take those pants to PSA/JSA to see if the crap was legit and actually Al Rokers would they only accept small pieces of the pants or would they take the whole pant that was uncut and still in tact. Would it matter to anyone if the pants were cut up after the fact or if they were cut up at the scene so Al could take them off without getting crap on the walls and floor.
what I believe, is that it doesnt matter when it was cut or by who as long as the product is the same as the rest (same ink, paper, printing, time) but thats just me
as far as guidelines .... these are just man made & can be man changed ANY time >>
I agree with you about the guidelines. They should always be somewhat liquid to adjust to changes.
I've got no inside info to back this up but I'd be willing to guess that the majority of people would want an original printing and an original cutting. Obviously you disagree, and I can't fault you for your opinion. The beauty of the hobby is that we're all free to collect however we'd like.
I remember a long, long time ago, Somone on these forums suggested getting together to submit cards together for the price break ... he was called stupid of all things ... now i see "piggybacking" is very popular. Sometimes things just take time & the first person with the message just gets shot
Perhaps. Maybe PSA will change their stance in the future, I've no idea. The real tragedy of that is that it would destroy a lot of awesome uncut sheets that might be unique.
If you don't mind me asking, why are you so interested in PSA's acceptance of the sheet cut cards? Seems like you're pretty much marching to the beat of your own drum anyway so why the PSA concern? I know BGS grades them and they're a completely legitimate TPGer and probably have the best holder of the three.
<< <i>If you don't mind me asking, why are you so interested in PSA's acceptance of the sheet cut cards? Seems like you're pretty much marching to the beat of your own drum anyway so why the PSA concern? I know BGS grades them and they're a completely legitimate TPGer and probably have the best holder of the three. >>
I dont really know why ... I guess today was the day that I tackled the topic
I guess I just dont like "hobby snob-ish" attitudes that I encountered at times, of this vs. that ... to me, looking at 2 things that were "so different", but in my eyes were the same" ... just didnt feel right
I've loved the hobby for many years, and to exclude sheet cut cards that look like beauties, just feels like a loss to the hobby
For those who just hate the, God bless, its ok ... but I think there should be room for all of it
I think this is a fair compromise. Slab them so collectors can better identify them. Obviously they can't be slabbed as the year they were printed, because that is not the year they were "made". As for assigning a numeric grade, I am indifferent, but the size of the card needs to be set for the issue (as is with all hand cut cards).
then buy them and enjoy. Be happy they are cheaper. Why are you trying to make them have the same value as a true cut card? Does the money issue bother you? I think that answers the question then. Buy what you feel is truly worth your money.
<< <i>If you don't mind me asking, why are you so interested in PSA's acceptance of the sheet cut cards? Seems like you're pretty much marching to the beat of your own drum anyway so why the PSA concern? I know BGS grades them and they're a completely legitimate TPGer and probably have the best holder of the three. >>
I dont really know why ... I guess today was the day that I tackled the topic
I guess I just dont like "hobby snob-ish" attitudes that I encountered at times, of this vs. that ... to me, looking at 2 things that were "so different", but in my eyes were the same" ... just didnt feel right
I've loved the hobby for many years, and to exclude sheet cut cards that look like beauties, just feels like a loss to the hobby
For those who just hate the, God bless, its ok ... but I think there should be room for all of it >>
Don't let it get you down. Just remember, no matter where you are on the internet and no matter how many people are talking, it's just one very small fraction of the collecting community. It's always good to diversify your hobby conversation locations so you can just focus on the positive of each one.
remember a long, long time ago, Somone on these forums suggested getting together to submit cards together for the price break ... he was called stupid of all things ... now i see "piggybacking" is very popular. Sometimes things just take time & the first person with the message just gets shot
That's whats known in poker playing circles as a "tell". You're really an alt posing as a "first time poster".
I wouldn't have an issue with PSA assigning numerical grades to a card with a notation that it was "sheet cut" or "hand cut." That is, the cards meets the requirements for an 8, 9, 10 etc. (important point - it must meet size requirements), but is not factory cut. I think a substantial majority of people here would agree that a card on an uncut sheet is still a card and not a "representation of a card." I sort of get the point, but it's a pretty significant deconstruction of the term "card." I have always thought of cards as coming "132 cards to a sheet."
In response to your original question, about 5 years ago I decided to collect graded cards. I did so because I am a set collector who was continually buying sets and going through them to obtain the best possible sets. It was logical to put my cards up against graded cards.
So which company to choose? I ruled out Beckett because they would grade sheet cuts. They would have been my first choice due to their reputation as tough graders, gave subgrades and had 9.5, followed by a Pristine 10 grade. But the fact that they graded sheet cuts like a regular cut card was the single reason I did not choose them.
Instead, I went with PSA, so I guess the answer to your question would be "No, PSA did not influence my views on sheet cuts".
By the way, I think it is unfortunate that sheets are cut up. They are an original work of art in their own merit and look great when framed.
A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie.
Now, you wonder why I would prefer to collect a prestine copy right out of the pack? and you're also wondering why PSA will not mislead consumers by knowingly grading this?
I will end by restating my first question; seriously? >>
I'll be honest. I didn't read anything past this post on the first page. I'm just curious....did anyone else mutter 'Gary' under their breath and giggle after reading this post????
My stance, not that it matters...Sheet cut cards to me are no different than altered cards. I understand some people have no problems with sheet cut cards and that's fine. To each his own. But unless that card in my collection is completely unmolested once leaving the pack, I don't want it in my collection. No sheet cuts, no altered cards, no recolored, spooned out creases...The only graded authentic cards in my collection are proofs. Everything else in my collection has a number, whether I like the number or not.
Sheet cut cards hold the same weight with me as packs that are searched...
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie >>
= whensportsweremylife.
Go away troll
"Must these Englishmen Live That I Might Die? Must They Live That I Might Die?" - The Blue Oyster Cult
OK - I will be the voice of difference. I don't care whether the card was cut in 1975 at Topps or last week in some guy's basement. It will look just fine either way in the binder with the rest of the cards from that year. I will enjoy looking at it the same. I just don't care about the grade or the source of the cut. Just the same way that I don't care if my Hostess cards have all of the cut lines showing or not. That is PSA's distinction, not mine. I recently bought some cards really cheaply because they had some writing on the backs. Oh well. I will still love them. And I will occasionally purchase a comic book. Guess what? If it had some crappy old rusty staples and they got replaced with some new ones, I'm ok with that too. The comic is still basically the same. And that 1955 Chevy that Brick spoke about? If I could drive a restored one, would I still enjoy it? Yep....
<< <i>So the kid takes real good care of the card. Places it in a book so as not to damage it. Years later, going through old boxes, he finds the card. It is pristine. He submits it. But because the kid did take it out once for recess and dropped it, one corner was slightly dinged. So it comes back a 9. Still a great card, still a good sell, and a great memory from his childhood.
The kid has a brother who liked seeing the cards in their sheet form. He gets the second sheet - the one sold as a sheet of 1975 Topps baseball cards. Not however many individual cards glued together, but a sheet of 1975 Topps baseball cards. He has his sheet, but gets an idea that maybe, if cut properly, the cards could look really really good. And hey - isn't that George Brett?? That guy's a Hall of Famer!!! Exacto knife in hand, he carefully cuts out the card so that it matches the size of a pack card and just looks as fresh as it if it came out of the pack. He submits it and it returns a 10. Tell me that what kid 2 did is more fair than kid 1?
And it is that history that makes cards valueable or not. While there are certainly members here who deal in cards for a living and have definite profit reasons for their hobby interactions, on some level they were the 10 year old kid ripping packs and getting the Mantles, Williams, Mays, Clementes, Jacksons, Ryans, Hendersons, Gwynns, Ripkens, and Jeters the first time. The same guys who are helping their kids (or grandkids) get today's Strasburgs, Pujols and Hamiltons. What makes a card valuable is not necessarily the person on the front, but where the card came from. If you offered me a graded 10 1976 Luis Tiant that came from a sheet, I would not trade it for the world for my graded 3 that came from my childhood collection.
To me, cut cards are nothing more than the remnants of a destroyed sheet. I would ask - why are you cutting a sheet? I would almost think that would be worth as much and maybe more than the 10s individual cuts could get, marked as such or not. There is rarity in an uncut sheet. A cut card from that is worthless IMO, no matter who is on front. >>
When a card is graded, you are documenting the physical condition of the card at time of submission, not what it went through during its life. People typically want the card in the best physical condition they can find or afford. You have the people that are holding on to memories, like your Luis Tiant 3, but people aren't grading their memories, they're grading an investment, they want the 10.
Ruining an uncut sheet is no more sacreligious than opening a wax box from the 70s and then discarding everything that you dont' think would grade 9 or 10.
<< <i>When a card is graded, you are documenting the physical condition of the card at time of submission, not what it went through during its life. People typically want the card in the best physical condition they can find or afford. You have the people that are holding on to memories, like your Luis Tiant 3, but people aren't grading their memories, they're grading an investment, they want the 10.
Ruining an uncut sheet is no more sacreligious than opening a wax box from the 70s and then discarding everything that you dont' think would grade 9 or 10. >>
I never said ruining an uncut sheet was sacreligous. Nor would I say that of your 70s example. But I disagree when you say people are grading an investment. Some are - and more power to them. When I first got back in, I was as well. But then I realized that I do not have the time nor inclination to 'invest' in trading cards the way some others do.. I now grade because I want to grade - and that includes grading my 'memories'. While it is true I probably won't grade all of them because they are too beat up and not worth the cost of grading, I will grade most of them because I want to preserve them.
My whole position on the original question is that sheet cuts are not the same as pack cards because of the intent of the manufacturer when they leave the factory.
BTW - Could you not also say that the card's physical condition at time of submission is due to what it went through during its life?
Collecting Topps Baseball: 1966-present base sets Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
<< <i>OK - I will be the voice of difference. I don't care whether the card was cut in 1975 at Topps or last week in some guy's basement. It will look just fine either way in the binder with the rest of the cards from that year. I will enjoy looking at it the same. I just don't care about the grade or the source of the cut. Just the same way that I don't care if my Hostess cards have all of the cut lines showing or not. That is PSA's distinction, not mine. I recently bought some cards really cheaply because they had some writing on the backs. Oh well. I will still love them. And I will occasionally purchase a comic book. Guess what? If it had some crappy old rusty staples and they got replaced with some new ones, I'm ok with that too. The comic is still basically the same. And that 1955 Chevy that Brick spoke about? If I could drive a restored one, would I still enjoy it? Yep.... >>
I like this guy^
I guess I'm having a problem seeing what the huge difference is between a card properly cut from a sheet at the factory and a card properly cut from a sheet outside the factory. Frankly I'm willing to bet that many such cards have been graded and many of you might own such cards right now and don't know it. So- put me in the "much ado about nothing" camp.
While we're at it, why not trim oversized cards to make them mint as long ss they measure the correct size, too.
I don't think the issue is whether you may have sheet cut cards in your collection --I'd concede such a likelihood is quite high (and one reason why I enjoy self-submitting my cards for my sets) but whether we perceive sheet cut cards in general as the peer equivalent of factory cut cards from the year if issue, and to that question my answer is absolutely not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>When a card is graded, you are documenting the physical condition of the card at time of submission, not what it went through during its life. >>
Sheet cut cards reflect that they haven't gone through anything in life except be recently cut up. It is very easy to tell the difference even if the cutter tried to replicate the factory like rough edges.
Comments
Topps factory cut only at the time the card was manufactured or bust!
Just my $0.02 worth.
Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>I am a CPA, we do background checks on all of our potential clients >>
<< <i>I have several 1975 Topps sets. I do not want sheet cut cards to ruin the integrity of those sets >>
funny, my wife is also a CPA ... and I've heard ALL the stories from work ... but this is the first time I've heard a place doing THAT to customers ... FIRST ... I guess thats the era we live in & nobody is ashamed of it ... she has always worked in smaller firms, so if you are from the big 4 or whatever it is nowadays ... maybe customers need to do a background check on YOU ALL LOL ... the bigger the firm, man, the worse of a job ... thats because they have a 15 minute budget to do a tax return ... trust me, I know ALL about CPA places
as far as your integrity ... dont buy them ... that simple
or is it the possibilty that they would do well on the open market & THEN what ? Oh Oh
<< <i>or is it the possibilty that they would do well on the open market & THEN what ? Oh Oh >>
They already do
<< <i>
<< <i>or is it the possibilty that they would do well on the open market & THEN what ? Oh Oh >>
They already do >>
no, not what I meant
I mean STOP pegging them as "not worthy"
slab them as sheet cut & let them go at it side by side in the same slab
but why are 1984 nestle cards ok to be slabbed by PSA ?
they were only in sheet form
and they are labled as hand cut
are we now down to one sheet is better than another ???
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>or is it the possibilty that they would do well on the open market & THEN what ? Oh Oh >>
They already do >>
no, not what I meant
I mean STOP pegging them as "not worthy"
slab them as sheet cut & let them go at it side by side in the same slab >>
They already can slab them as "authentic"
What's the difference?
<< <i>not sure if anyone has stated the "reasons"
but why are 1984 nestle cards ok to be slabbed by PSA ?
they were only in sheet form
and they are labled as hand cut
are we now down to one sheet is better than another ??? >>
I may be wrong but I believe those were never inserted into packs. So again, if they were only ever intended to be cut from a sheet and not by the factory, they are graded.
But collectors realize this when they buy a slabbed nestle card. They don't have to wonder if its a sheet-cut nestle or a 1984 pack-pulled Nestlé.
the point was to grade it in the standard way (for its condition 1-10) ... and THEN assign hand cut
not authentic ... that implies altared ... "not worthy"
<< <i>It seems like the discussion is getting off track. The OPs original question-- and I think it's a very good one- is whether board members have always looked down on sheet cut cards, or if this is the conclusion you came to only after learning that PSA would not grade them. If your answer is 'b'- and my suspicion is that this would be the correct answer for the overwhelming majority of board members, whether they care to admit it or not- then why did PSA's opinion change your opinion? >>
+1. I think it's an interesting question. It's particularly interesting to me because I personally don't have a problem sheet-cut cards and wonder if grading company policies have influenced peoples' perspective on this matter. That is, before there were grading companies and resulting $5-20K examples of what previously were are most $100-200 cards, sheet cut cards may not have been an issue to most. So with the potentially huge dollars at stake, I can appreciate people desiring everyone be on a level playing field. I get that. It's just not an issue to me.
I'm also a big fan of uncut sheets. I have uncut sheets from the late 1970s and 1980s. Most of the big rookie cards from Murray and Molitor to Ken Griffey 1989 UD, and some oddball sheets like Hostess. But I like the novelty of these being on sheets. I certainly view them as real cards and not "depictions of a real card" because, well, they are real cards. They were just never cut. And they won't be. At least not by me.
But going back to the original question, I believe the focus intended to be on whether you have always been critical of sheet-cut cards, assuming you are critical of them now. I agree that the wording and use of all caps, intentional or not, started off on a confrontational tone.
I think, currently, there's entirely too much emphasis placed on TPGers. I'm not saying they're bad, quite the contrary. I never purchased from mailing lists growing up so, aside from my LCS, all of my hobby purchases have been online and predominantly through ebay. I have to imagine that TPGers have done wonders for these types of purchases, taking much of the guess work out of buying from strangers without having the card in your hand to be examined. TPGers offer an objective opinion based on their stated guidelines and, as long as you're familiar with how they each define their guidelines, you've got a pretty good idea of what you'll be receiving when the card shows up. I don't know about any of you, but I'm quite thankful for that.
Now, there are certainly differences between the TPGers in terms of what they're willing to grade, what criteria exist for their grades, how they grade them, etc. As far as I'm concerned, that's fine. As long as all of that information is stated on their website so I know how they do things. For me personally, how do I feel about sheet cut cards? I think I tend to side with PSA's POV on them. Would that be different if I were aware of sheet cut cards before I became aware of PSA's POV? I suppose I can't deny the possibility of that. But there's also no way for me to definitively answer that hypothetical.
I'll say this, someone previously mentioned the analogy of 1952 Topps printing plates and the OP disqualified that analogy by pointing out that he stated "original printing" as a prerequisite to the conversation. The problem with this is that now the OP (sorry, I don't know your name) has created his own set of qualifiers the same way each of the TPGers establish their own set. To the OP, an original printing is the starting/stopping point for what should be legitimate (my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your POV). Nothing wrong with that. It seems PSA has decided that original printing AND original cutting is their starting/stopping point for legitimacy in this particular area. I tend to agree with this POV. I would want my cards to have gone through the same obstacles to get to me that a card issued for public consumption went through back whenever they were issued. I believe that there should be both an original printing AND an original factory cutting.
And to everyone that is horrified by sheet cut cards, if you're collecting high grade/high dollar cards, chances are good that you've got a sheet cut card or two in your collection (no matter which TPGer you subscribe to).
<< <i>if they were only ever intended to be cut from a sheet and not by the factory, they are graded.
But collectors realize this when they buy a slabbed nestle card. They don't have to wonder if its a sheet-cut nestle or a 1984 pack-pulled Nestlé. >>
I think we are really splitting hairs & all it has to do with, is a companies willingness to add a note, as they already do with other sheets
I think this is really about one company trying to make its mark, from a different company (right or wrong)
But I think in the process, collectors lose a little
<< <i>if you are grading it as authentic, then the whole point has been missed
the point was to grade it in the standard way (for its condition 1-10) ... and THEN assign hand cut
not authentic ... that implies altared ... "not worthy" >>
We might be talking in circles
Sheet cuts, whether you like them or not, cannot be graded by PSA under their current grading standards. Because they feel (I could be wrong I suppose) that to receive a numerical grade, certain conditions must be met. Namely, that the card came from a traditional method of production and distribution, and therefore all cards graded UNDER THESE STANDARDS, were potentially subjected to the same condition obstacles.
You sheet cut card could be slabbed but like others have said, cutting a card with a laser in 2013 is very different from cutting it with the blades used in the factory. So grading it then putting a sheet cut designation as you suggested, couldn't happen together
<< <i>not sure if anyone has stated the "reasons"
but why are 1984 nestle cards ok to be slabbed by PSA ?
they were only in sheet form
and they are labled as hand cut
are we now down to one sheet is better than another ??? >>
It's the intent of the cut. If the card was part of a box bottom, then the intent is to cut them. I do not know of the Nestle sheets, but I can guess they either came in a box or were a mail order. It was cheaper not to include the cutting at the factory or the intent was to give them out as sheets and then have the end user cut them. Sheets of trading cards sold as sheets of trading cards were intended to be sheets of trading cards - not do it yourself wax packing.
I fail to see the logic behind PSA or SGC or BVG or Bob's grading 'dictating' the market. I applaud them for their vigilance. I also fail to see any advantage to be gained by marking sheet cuts as such. When I hear of a 1975 George Brett graded 10 I think of a pack card. If I saw - CUT FROM SHEET printed on the label, it wouldn't be worth the plastic in the slab. It is not truly 'authentic' as defined by the hobby as a whole.
Grading companies were founded and started grading to reduce if not eliminate the fraud that can very easily be created within the hobby. While there may be collector's of sheet cuts, and they have their own little niche, they should not complain that the 3rd party graders will not grade such. It just opens up too much of a Pandora's box. They are bowing to the wishes of the industry, not the other way around.
Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
<< <i>I'll say this, someone previously mentioned the analogy of 1952 Topps printing plates and the OP disqualified that analogy by pointing out that he stated "original printing" as a prerequisite to the conversation. The problem with this is that now the OP (sorry, I don't know your name) has created his own set of qualifiers the same way each of the TPGers establish their own set. To the OP, an original printing is the starting/stopping point for what should be legitimate (my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your POV). Nothing wrong with that. It seems PSA has decided that original printing AND original cutting is their starting/stopping point for legitimacy in this particular area. I tend to agree with this POV. I would want my cards to have gone through the same obstacles to get to me that a card issued for public consumption went through back whenever they were issued. I believe that there should be both an original printing AND an original factory cutting. >>
Not really sure how to answer this, as I believe there is an issue with "star" going ahead & printing some more 80's cards ?? I really cant defend those slabbed BGS cards, as I dont know
what about the stories of 1989 UD Griffeys (2nd prints) ?
what I am talking about is the original printing, at the original time, on the original cardstock .......... having the plates and going at it again years later is not the same thing
again ... edited for typos .... as always
First you say you want every card to be worth "one dollar or less"
But, this entire discussion is about how put off you are that all of your sheet cut cards are worthless?
Isn't PSA making the sheet cut market one for you to enjoy?
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll say this, someone previously mentioned the analogy of 1952 Topps printing plates and the OP disqualified that analogy by pointing out that he stated "original printing" as a prerequisite to the conversation. The problem with this is that now the OP (sorry, I don't know your name) has created his own set of qualifiers the same way each of the TPGers establish their own set. To the OP, an original printing is the starting/stopping point for what should be legitimate (my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your POV). Nothing wrong with that. It seems PSA has decided that original printing AND original cutting is their starting/stopping point for legitimacy in this particular area. I tend to agree with this POV. I would want my cards to have gone through the same obstacles to get to me that a card issued for public consumption went through back whenever they were issued. I believe that there should be both an original printing AND an original factory cutting. >>
Not really sure how to answer this, as I believe there is an issue with "star" going ahead & printing some more 80's cards ?? I really cant defend those slabbed BGS cards, as I dont know
what about the stories of 1989 UD Griffeys (2nd prints) ?
what I am talking about is the original printing, at the original time, on the original cardstock .......... having the plates and going at it again years later is not the same thing
again ... edited for typos .... as always >>
I think I understand what you're saying. Like I said, if not, I apologize. My point was just that you've decided that original printing but NOT original cutting is how you define legitimacy in this area and PSA (and myself) believe it should be original printing AND original cutting. Just a different point of view. While you may not like that PSA defines legitimacy the way they do, I';m sure there would be a lot of people that wouldn't like the way you define legitimacy in this area. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. Any time there's one set of definitive guidelines there's always going to be a group (or groups) that disagree with those guidelines. I think the important thing, above all of this, is that we know a TPGer's guidelines ahead of time so we can be informed and aware of what it is we're buying and collecting. I believe that's the case with each of the big three TPGers, in regard to this issue.
what I believe, is that it doesnt matter when it was cut or by who as long as the product is the same as the rest (same ink, paper, printing, time)
but thats just me
as far as guidelines .... these are just man made & can be man changed ANY time
<< <i>I think you're backtracking a little:
First you say you want every card to be worth "one dollar or less"
But, this entire discussion is about how put off you are that all of your sheet cut cards are worthless?
Isn't PSA making the sheet cut market one for you to enjoy? >>
I'm sorry, I dont see the backtracking that you are talking about
I cant defend myself on something that i dont understand
but from what i do understand, "value" has different meaning to different people
you want to put a $ value on it
I just want something RECOGNIZED
<< <i>Did you guys know that Al Roker crapped his pants at the White House? >>
Did he really? Was it just a shart or a full on crap running down his leg? Now let me ask a serious question that might ruffle a few feathers. If someone were to take those pants to PSA/JSA to see if the crap was legit and actually Al Rokers would they only accept small pieces of the pants or would they take the whole pant that was uncut and still in tact. Would it matter to anyone if the pants were cut up after the fact or if they were cut up at the scene so Al could take them off without getting crap on the walls and floor.
<< <i>ReggieCleveland ...
what I believe, is that it doesnt matter when it was cut or by who as long as the product is the same as the rest (same ink, paper, printing, time)
but thats just me
as far as guidelines .... these are just man made & can be man changed ANY time >>
I agree with you about the guidelines. They should always be somewhat liquid to adjust to changes.
I've got no inside info to back this up but I'd be willing to guess that the majority of people would want an original printing and an original cutting. Obviously you disagree, and I can't fault you for your opinion. The beauty of the hobby is that we're all free to collect however we'd like.
I remember a long, long time ago, Somone on these forums suggested getting together to submit cards together for the price break ... he was called stupid of all things ... now i see "piggybacking" is very popular. Sometimes things just take time & the first person with the message just gets shot
thats how it is sometimes
<< <i>And thanks for creating the thread. I've enjoyed reading the on-topic responses. >>
yeah, you have to give a topic a chance ... if i went by the first 2 replies ... we'd all be "in"
I HOPE psa will at least considers it one day. You would be amazed how the majority just go along with whatever is hip
<< <i>If you don't mind me asking, why are you so interested in PSA's acceptance of the sheet cut cards? Seems like you're pretty much marching to the beat of your own drum anyway so why the PSA concern? I know BGS grades them and they're a completely legitimate TPGer and probably have the best holder of the three. >>
I dont really know why ... I guess today was the day that I tackled the topic
I guess I just dont like "hobby snob-ish" attitudes that I encountered at times, of this vs. that ... to me, looking at 2 things that were "so different", but in my eyes were the same" ... just didnt feel right
I've loved the hobby for many years, and to exclude sheet cut cards that look like beauties, just feels like a loss to the hobby
For those who just hate the, God bless, its ok ... but I think there should be room for all of it
Not my card.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>If you don't mind me asking, why are you so interested in PSA's acceptance of the sheet cut cards? Seems like you're pretty much marching to the beat of your own drum anyway so why the PSA concern? I know BGS grades them and they're a completely legitimate TPGer and probably have the best holder of the three. >>
I dont really know why ... I guess today was the day that I tackled the topic
I guess I just dont like "hobby snob-ish" attitudes that I encountered at times, of this vs. that ... to me, looking at 2 things that were "so different", but in my eyes were the same" ... just didnt feel right
I've loved the hobby for many years, and to exclude sheet cut cards that look like beauties, just feels like a loss to the hobby
For those who just hate the, God bless, its ok ... but I think there should be room for all of it >>
Don't let it get you down. Just remember, no matter where you are on the internet and no matter how many people are talking, it's just one very small fraction of the collecting community. It's always good to diversify your hobby conversation locations so you can just focus on the positive of each one.
That's whats known in poker playing circles as a "tell". You're really an alt posing as a "first time poster".
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I've loved the hobby for many years, and to exclude sheet cut cards that look like beauties, just feels like a loss to the hobby
They're not excluded. Just buy BGS.
So which company to choose? I ruled out Beckett because they would grade sheet cuts. They would have been my first choice due to their reputation as tough graders, gave subgrades and had 9.5, followed by a Pristine 10 grade. But the fact that they graded sheet cuts like a regular cut card was the single reason I did not choose them.
Instead, I went with PSA, so I guess the answer to your question would be "No, PSA did not influence my views on sheet cuts".
By the way, I think it is unfortunate that sheets are cut up. They are an original work of art in their own merit and look great when framed.
That - all my cards turned to sh!t and the hogs ate'm.
Joe
<< <i>Seriously?
A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie.
Now, you wonder why I would prefer to collect a prestine copy right out of the pack? and you're also wondering why PSA will not mislead consumers by knowingly grading this?
I will end by restating my first question; seriously? >>
I'll be honest. I didn't read anything past this post on the first page. I'm just curious....did anyone else mutter 'Gary' under their breath and giggle after reading this post????
My stance, not that it matters...Sheet cut cards to me are no different than altered cards. I understand some people have no problems with sheet cut cards and that's fine. To each his own. But unless that card in my collection is completely unmolested once leaving the pack, I don't want it in my collection. No sheet cuts, no altered cards, no recolored, spooned out creases...The only graded authentic cards in my collection are proofs. Everything else in my collection has a number, whether I like the number or not.
Sheet cut cards hold the same weight with me as packs that are searched...
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie >>
= whensportsweremylife.
Go away troll
<< <i>How you doing Joey Farino? Still cant figure out how to post an avatar? >>
Kirk you are hilarious!! Lol!
<< <i>So the kid takes real good care of the card. Places it in a book so as not to damage it. Years later, going through old boxes, he finds the card. It is pristine. He submits it. But because the kid did take it out once for recess and dropped it, one corner was slightly dinged. So it comes back a 9. Still a great card, still a good sell, and a great memory from his childhood.
The kid has a brother who liked seeing the cards in their sheet form. He gets the second sheet - the one sold as a sheet of 1975 Topps baseball cards. Not however many individual cards glued together, but a sheet of 1975 Topps baseball cards. He has his sheet, but gets an idea that maybe, if cut properly, the cards could look really really good. And hey - isn't that George Brett?? That guy's a Hall of Famer!!! Exacto knife in hand, he carefully cuts out the card so that it matches the size of a pack card and just looks as fresh as it if it came out of the pack. He submits it and it returns a 10. Tell me that what kid 2 did is more fair than kid 1?
And it is that history that makes cards valueable or not. While there are certainly members here who deal in cards for a living and have definite profit reasons for their hobby interactions, on some level they were the 10 year old kid ripping packs and getting the Mantles, Williams, Mays, Clementes, Jacksons, Ryans, Hendersons, Gwynns, Ripkens, and Jeters the first time. The same guys who are helping their kids (or grandkids) get today's Strasburgs, Pujols and Hamiltons. What makes a card valuable is not necessarily the person on the front, but where the card came from. If you offered me a graded 10 1976 Luis Tiant that came from a sheet, I would not trade it for the world for my graded 3 that came from my childhood collection.
To me, cut cards are nothing more than the remnants of a destroyed sheet. I would ask - why are you cutting a sheet? I would almost think that would be worth as much and maybe more than the 10s individual cuts could get, marked as such or not. There is rarity in an uncut sheet. A cut card from that is worthless IMO, no matter who is on front. >>
When a card is graded, you are documenting the physical condition of the card at time of submission, not what it went through during its life. People typically want the card in the best physical condition they can find or afford. You have the people that are holding on to memories, like your Luis Tiant 3, but people aren't grading their memories, they're grading an investment, they want the 10.
Ruining an uncut sheet is no more sacreligious than opening a wax box from the 70s and then discarding everything that you dont' think would grade 9 or 10.
<< <i>When a card is graded, you are documenting the physical condition of the card at time of submission, not what it went through during its life. People typically want the card in the best physical condition they can find or afford. You have the people that are holding on to memories, like your Luis Tiant 3, but people aren't grading their memories, they're grading an investment, they want the 10.
Ruining an uncut sheet is no more sacreligious than opening a wax box from the 70s and then discarding everything that you dont' think would grade 9 or 10. >>
I never said ruining an uncut sheet was sacreligous. Nor would I say that of your 70s example. But I disagree when you say people are grading an investment. Some are - and more power to them. When I first got back in, I was as well. But then I realized that I do not have the time nor inclination to 'invest' in trading cards the way some others do.. I now grade because I want to grade - and that includes grading my 'memories'. While it is true I probably won't grade all of them because they are too beat up and not worth the cost of grading, I will grade most of them because I want to preserve them.
My whole position on the original question is that sheet cuts are not the same as pack cards because of the intent of the manufacturer when they leave the factory.
BTW - Could you not also say that the card's physical condition at time of submission is due to what it went through during its life?
Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
<< <i>OK - I will be the voice of difference. I don't care whether the card was cut in 1975 at Topps or last week in some guy's basement. It will look just fine either way in the binder with the rest of the cards from that year. I will enjoy looking at it the same. I just don't care about the grade or the source of the cut. Just the same way that I don't care if my Hostess cards have all of the cut lines showing or not. That is PSA's distinction, not mine. I recently bought some cards really cheaply because they had some writing on the backs. Oh well. I will still love them. And I will occasionally purchase a comic book. Guess what? If it had some crappy old rusty staples and they got replaced with some new ones, I'm ok with that too. The comic is still basically the same. And that 1955 Chevy that Brick spoke about? If I could drive a restored one, would I still enjoy it? Yep.... >>
I like this guy^
I guess I'm having a problem seeing what the huge difference is between a card properly cut from a sheet at the factory and a card properly cut from a sheet outside the factory. Frankly I'm willing to bet that many such cards have been graded and many of you might own such cards right now and don't know it. So- put me in the "much ado about nothing" camp.
Edited for typo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I don't think the issue is whether you may have sheet cut cards in your collection --I'd concede such a likelihood is quite high (and one reason why I enjoy self-submitting my cards for my sets) but whether we perceive sheet cut cards in general as the peer equivalent of factory cut cards from the year if issue, and to that question my answer is absolutely not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>When a card is graded, you are documenting the physical condition of the card at time of submission, not what it went through during its life. >>
Sheet cut cards reflect that they haven't gone through anything in life except be recently cut up. It is very easy to tell the difference even if the cutter tried to replicate the factory like rough edges.