My 1st post, that will surely rub most the wrong way
whensportsweremylife
Posts: 30
My first post here & really, I just had to register to ask a question of collectors. I'm not looking for agreeance, but rather thoughtful input & for people to truly THINK before they answer
This is not PSA bashing, as I do have about 14 PSA cards & I have found that multiple "major" grading companies are guilty of slabbing cards that have just come out of a barbers shop
So, here is the question ............ sheet cut cards. for those who just refuse to collect them ... is that how you always felt or would have felt, before entering the "grading world" ? or is that something that developed AFTER you realized PSA does not want to grade them ? Do you allow PSA to tell you what & how to collect? are sheets not the same products that were printed up when other sheets were cut ? Then how are graded Box bottom cards, nestle cards from sheets, etc justified ??? And if PSA were to do a 180 ... how would you justify YOUR 180 ?
I wont even bring up the Gretzky/McNall Honus Wanger ... nothing to see there ... move along ... forget & forgive
Time will tell, when perhaps grading companies no longer exist, and a new collector will pick up 2 identical cards ... one that has rough edges and looks like it picked teeth for a year vs. a laser cut card ... and determines which one HE likes
This is not PSA bashing, as I do have about 14 PSA cards & I have found that multiple "major" grading companies are guilty of slabbing cards that have just come out of a barbers shop
So, here is the question ............ sheet cut cards. for those who just refuse to collect them ... is that how you always felt or would have felt, before entering the "grading world" ? or is that something that developed AFTER you realized PSA does not want to grade them ? Do you allow PSA to tell you what & how to collect? are sheets not the same products that were printed up when other sheets were cut ? Then how are graded Box bottom cards, nestle cards from sheets, etc justified ??? And if PSA were to do a 180 ... how would you justify YOUR 180 ?
I wont even bring up the Gretzky/McNall Honus Wanger ... nothing to see there ... move along ... forget & forgive
Time will tell, when perhaps grading companies no longer exist, and a new collector will pick up 2 identical cards ... one that has rough edges and looks like it picked teeth for a year vs. a laser cut card ... and determines which one HE likes
0
Comments
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
debate & asking questions are not allowed, unless they are only question of how many cards to submit ?
I didnt ask if they would shut it down ... I asked what you thought. Do you think anything ???
My opinion is cutting sheets using modern technology is an unfair advantage. A modern sheet cut card is in essence a different product than a card pulled from wax or vending and should be viewed as such.
What are your thoughts on trimming a rough cut OPC card? It looks better right? What's the big deal?
Later, Paul.
Justin
Retired - Eddie Mathews Master Registry Set (96.36%) Rank 1
<< <i>I take it your sheet cut cards didn't get slabbed
My opinion is cutting sheets using modern technology is an unfair advantage. A modern sheet cut card is in essence a different product than a card pulled from wax or vending and should be viewed as such.
What are your thoughts on trimming a rough cut OPC card? It looks better right? What's the big deal? >>
No, I dont submit cards to ANYONE
I only have a few, from all companies
I have a few in PSA slabs that i really enjoy
and i have a few in BGS slabs
I enjoy my cards, because of how they look ... not who graded them
I have to vested interest
I'm just trying to have a conversation with collectors
and i want to know who controls the hobby ... collectors or grading companies
does that conversation need to be shut down ?
if so, must be alot of fear behind that
no, i dont believe in trimming a card that has already been cut
but i do believe in cutting a sheet ... like 1984 nestle ... PSA does also ... right ?
edit for meaty fingers
Hostess, Bazooka, and other cards that have perforations or dotted border lines are intended to be separated in the aftermarket, and therefore can be graded. Since these types of cards were not cut and inserted into packs in the 60s and 70s, separating them now does not diminish the grading of pack-inserted counterparts.
<< <i>PSA doesn't grade sheet cut cards (those that are obviously sheet cut, anyway) because they are not in their original state. Cards separated in 1971 at the factory were subjected to far greater condition disadvantages (packaging, handling, mistreatment by children) than cards separated in 2013 and therefore should not be held to identical grading standards.
Hostess, Bazooka, and other cards that have perforations or dotted border lines are intended to be separated in the aftermarket, and therefore can be graded. Since these types of cards were not cut and inserted into packs in the 60s and 70s, separating them now does not diminish the grading of pack-inserted counterparts. >>
I'm asking for what YOU would have thought before PSA came along, not to paste PSA guidelines
what is "original state" ?
I would thing it's legit cardboard that was printed by that company at the time of original prrinting
thus its theirs and not a reprint
My first post here & really, I just had to register to ask a question of collectors. I'm not looking for agreeance, but rather thoughtful input & for people to truly THINK before they answer
I dunno, it's subtle, but it smells of an adversarial tone. We'll see. People will come into this thread, take your bait, and disagree with you and then you will pounce.
Or maybe I am wrong...
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>PSA doesn't grade sheet cut cards (those that are obviously sheet cut, anyway) because they are not in their original state. Cards separated in 1971 at the factory were subjected to far greater condition disadvantages (packaging, handling, mistreatment by children) than cards separated in 2013 and therefore should not be held to identical grading standards.
Hostess, Bazooka, and other cards that have perforations or dotted border lines are intended to be separated in the aftermarket, and therefore can be graded. Since these types of cards were not cut and inserted into packs in the 60s and 70s, separating them now does not diminish the grading of pack-inserted counterparts. >>
True as far as it goes, but then cards separated in 1971 were also subjected to far greater condition disadvantages than cards separated at the Panini factory in 2013. Given this, why do we use the identical grading standards for each?
<< <i>Your posts reeks of picking a fight. You say you "just want to have a conversation with collectors", but your 1st sentence of your 1st post reads:
My first post here & really, I just had to register to ask a question of collectors. I'm not looking for agreeance, but rather thoughtful input & for people to truly THINK before they answer
I dunno, it's subtle, but it smells of an adversarial tone. We'll see. People will come into this thread, take your bait, and disagree with you and then you will pounce.
Or maybe I am wrong...
Pounce ?
You've already seen the "worst" of me
I have no intention of bashing anyone
nor grading companies
I think graded cards are nice to an extent
and I just wanted people to see my point of view (right or wrong)
and MAYBE get some to see my point is not all wrong
no bait here
I wrote what i wrote, because I've seen enough here to know I'm up againt 99% of you on this, but I'm not afraid to TALK
A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie.
Now, you wonder why I would prefer to collect a prestine copy right out of the pack? and you're also wondering why PSA will not mislead consumers by knowingly grading this?
I will end by restating my first question; seriously?
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>Seriously?
A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie.
Now, you wonder why I would prefer to collect a prestine copy right out of the pack? and you're also wondering why PSA will not mislead consumers by knowingly grading this?
I will end by restating my first question; seriously? >>
thanks for adding so much to the discussion
<< <i>Seriously?
A 300 pound 30 something year old dirtbag living with his mother decides to buy a 1975 Topps uncut sheet for $300. This man (probably living in a basement) takes his sweaty hands and molests that piece of art with a $30 rotary to cut out a perfect George Brett rookie.
Now, you wonder why I would prefer to collect a prestine copy right out of the pack? and you're also wondering why PSA will not mislead consumers by knowingly grading this?
I will end by restating my first question; seriously? >>
that if there were a few uncut sheets from the 50's, 60's & 70's
and some high end cards (mantles) had been laser cut prior to the "grading era"
and prominent collectors had invested alot of $ in these cards
... I dont think PSA would have done so well, or would have even taken the stance
again ... Honus Wagner
<< <i>thanks for adding so much to the discussion >>
He did actually. Was your comment sarcasm?
I think the PSA stance certainly affects how many feel about what is legitimate. I will admit that prior to getting involved in this forum and really chasing some registry sets I had never even stopped to consider at what point in time a card was cut from the sheet. I first learned about it when looking at some really nice BGS 70's OPC Nolan Ryan cards and wondering why nobody was as interested in them as the PSA equivalents. The cards looked beautiful to me. It really wasn't until someone told me they were sheet cut and that PSA wouldn't grade them that I began to look down on them. Especially early on, the fact that the "grading experts" looked down on it meant that I should too. What I'd like to know is exactly how they can be certain a card is sheet cut or not. We all know that sheet cut cards get through and nobody knows. In fact, many of us have a few sheet cut cards in PSA holders I'd bet. Acknowledging that my feelings have been colored by PSA and other collectors' opinions doesn't change the fact that I'd rather not have sheet cut cards, but it does help explain what formulated by stance.
If you don't think PSA sets public opinion then consider this hypothetical. What if PSA decided to start grading sheet cut cards, but noted "Sheet Cut" on the flip. How many people would then chase the rare "Sheet Cut" Pop 2 for their registries? How many of us would refuse to ever own a "Sheet Cut" version? I'm not speculating on the answer, just putting it up for discussion.
In summary...no I don't like sheet cut cards. Yes, PSA's guidelines were part of forming my opinion. Yes, I'm open to the possibility that my opinion could change if the hobby standard changed. Does this make me bad? I don't think so.
Jbox
Edit: Before the semantics police points out that all cards are "sheet cut", just change it to "hand cut" or whatever suits you. You all know what I mean.
<< <i>
<< <i>thanks for adding so much to the discussion >>
He did actually. Was your comment sarcasm? >>
if you two are on the same par as "molestation", "fat dirtbags", "mothers basements"
then talk among yourselves
I have no need for that
<< <i>
What if PSA decided to start grading sheet cut cards, but noted "Sheet Cut" on the flip
>>
I think I've seen this written before by others
Would it that be such a problem for PSA
or is it more of a matter that they cant reverse on this matter NO MATTER WHAT
IMO - grading or whether PSA would or would not grade it is not relevant. And trying to pass off sheet cut cards as pack cards is deceitful, no matter whether they are graded, not graded, submitted for grading and rejected.
BTW - I don't collect sheet cut cards anyways so this is a rhetorical answer to a semi-rhetorical question. And to answer the second part of that question - if the grading companies did a 180, my thinking is they would identify said cards as sheet cuts because as I said before - they are different than pack cards.
No - I do not allow PSA to dictate what I collect. I collect what I want to collect. Why on earth would I let a company that could care less what a shmoe in MA collects tell me how to collect?
(Begin Sarcasm) And if I did collect sheet cut cards and then found out about a grading company not grading them because they are sheet cut, I would probably be bummed out and then lash out at the grading company by trying to goad board members into a fight about the ethics of sheet cut cards. (end Sarcasm)
Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
again, i dont think there is a right or wrong answer
I'm just looking for discussion
the only thing I would argue with is the part that graded sheet cards are meant as deceit
I really dont know if thats the case
Maybe beckett could have labled them in some way
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I wouldn't mind if sheet cut and restored cards were graded but noted as such. Buy a 1955 Chevy and restore it and it has value as a restored auto. How about a 1955 Koufax PSA 7 recolored? It would be similar to a qualifer. The market would decide their value.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>The value of rare vintage cards is tied to the fact that finding mint examples that were cut in the factory using outdated equipment >>
please find one quote anywhere online by anyone that has written this statement
matter of fact, we've all seen Gem 10 examples that DONT have laser cut edges or even close, so they WERE graded with a little give & take based on cutting back then
<< <i>Hi, hello, how are ya?
I wouldn't mind if sheet cut and restored cards were graded but noted as such. Buy a 1955 Chevy and restore it and it has value as a restored auto. How about a 1955 Koufax PSA 7 recolored? It would be similar to a qualifer. The market would decide their value. >>
thank you
I'm doing the best I can ... which would not grade well
LOL
true statement you made you made
its funny how this country of ours is changing so much before my eyes & every social issue is jammed down my throat, but on simple issues like grading cards ... we take such stands
Sheet cut cards are not cards, they are paper cutouts. Simply because the piece of cardboard depicts a baseball card does not make the cutout a card. IMO the definition of a baseball card is not as simple as a cardboard picture of a player, how they were distributed and made play a huge role in what the card actually is. When you take a sheet and cutout your own card, you are essentially changing the manufacturing process and creating an entirely different sort of collectible. I am not opposed to PSA slabbing these as "Cardboard cutout depicting 1975 Topps George Brett", but at that point, you could get more money if you just sold them pretending they really weren't.
As for the Wagner, that Honus Wagner card was not sheet cut, it was trimmed and altered, huge difference IMO. Should PSA have slabbed it? I personally think yes, but that's an entirely different "discussion".
Jason
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>that Honus Wagner card was not sheet cut, it was trimmed and altered, huge difference IMO. Should PSA have slabbed it? I personally think yes >>
No problem & thanks for the replies
ok ........
So the kid takes real good care of the card. Places it in a book so as not to damage it. Years later, going through old boxes, he finds the card. It is pristine. He submits it. But because the kid did take it out once for recess and dropped it, one corner was slightly dinged. So it comes back a 9. Still a great card, still a good sell, and a great memory from his childhood.
The kid has a brother who liked seeing the cards in their sheet form. He gets the second sheet - the one sold as a sheet of 1975 Topps baseball cards. Not however many individual cards glued together, but a sheet of 1975 Topps baseball cards. He has his sheet, but gets an idea that maybe, if cut properly, the cards could look really really good. And hey - isn't that George Brett?? That guy's a Hall of Famer!!! Exacto knife in hand, he carefully cuts out the card so that it matches the size of a pack card and just looks as fresh as it if it came out of the pack. He submits it and it returns a 10. Tell me that what kid 2 did is more fair than kid 1?
Tell me how that is not deceit??
You could argue what if they marked it as such??? I suppose you could, but I would think it wouldn't even have half the value of a legitimate pack card because it did not have the same 'history' as the pack card.
And it is that history that makes cards valueable or not. While there are certainly members here who deal in cards for a living and have definite profit reasons for their hobby interactions, on some level they were the 10 year old kid ripping packs and getting the Mantles, Williams, Mays, Clementes, Jacksons, Ryans, Hendersons, Gwynns, Ripkens, and Jeters the first time. The same guys who are helping their kids (or grandkids) get today's Strasburgs, Pujols and Hamiltons. What makes a card valuable is not necessarily the person on the front, but where the card came from. If you offered me a graded 10 1976 Luis Tiant that came from a sheet, I would not trade it for the world for my graded 3 that came from my childhood collection.
To me, cut cards are nothing more than the remnants of a destroyed sheet. I would ask - why are you cutting a sheet? I would almost think that would be worth as much and maybe more than the 10s individual cuts could get, marked as such or not. There is rarity in an uncut sheet. A cut card from that is worthless IMO, no matter who is on front.
Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
By the way, we'd love to see pictures of your uncut sheet collection.
<< <i>OP, for the sake of discussion, let's say the original 1952 Topps printing plates were still around and someone started printing Mantles. They would probably be pretty damn good looking. Should we want to collect those or should any company want to grade them? The condition of those cards would have a significant advantage over the originals for the many reasons already mentioned in this thread.
By the way, we'd love to see pictures of your uncut sheet collection. >>
I believe I stated AT THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL PRINTING
if I didnt, then I'm saying that now
I think you were sarcastic about my sheet cut collection, but thats ok
I'm somewhat a private person, and dont show off my collection
I have no need for that
I'm a player collector & I have what i think are nice BGS AND PSA cards
<< <i>
<< <i>The value of rare vintage cards is tied to the fact that finding mint examples that were cut in the factory using outdated equipment >>
please find one quote anywhere online by anyone that has written this statement
matter of fact, we've all seen Gem 10 examples that DONT have laser cut edges or even close, so they WERE graded with a little give & take based on cutting back then >>
If you are claiming that a sheet cut card is the equivalent of a pack pulled card and that the huge premium afforded to notoriously tough low pop cards is not inextricably linked to the conditions in the factory with regard to that, you are completely mistaken.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
If you are claiming that a sheet cut card is the equivalent of a pack pulled card and that the huge premium afforded to notoriously tough low pop cards is not inextricably linked to the conditions in the factory with regard to that, you are completely mistaken. >>
no, I have no interest in money and premiums
I enjoy the cards & truly wish the older cards were not scare & inexpensive
that would make the hobby more enjoyable
I wish all cards were worth no more than a dollar
you made a comment & i asked that you show the source
obviously, it was just an opinion & not fact
no need to argue about it
<< <i>
<< <i>PSA doesn't grade sheet cut cards (those that are obviously sheet cut, anyway) because they are not in their original state. Cards separated in 1971 at the factory were subjected to far greater condition disadvantages (packaging, handling, mistreatment by children) than cards separated in 2013 and therefore should not be held to identical grading standards.
Hostess, Bazooka, and other cards that have perforations or dotted border lines are intended to be separated in the aftermarket, and therefore can be graded. Since these types of cards were not cut and inserted into packs in the 60s and 70s, separating them now does not diminish the grading of pack-inserted counterparts. >>
I'm asking for what YOU would have thought before PSA came along, not to paste PSA guidelines
what is "original state" ?
I would thing it's legit cardboard that was printed by that company at the time of original prrinting
thus its theirs and not a reprint >>
I didn't post PSA guidelines, smart person.
Your original post (if you haven't edited it again) expressed some confusion as to why sheet-cuts aren't graded while other similar types (box bottoms) are. I'm attempting to give a possible answer.
And no, "original state" does not ONLY imply the cardboard used, but also the cut that was made, and the method they were distributed, thus subjecting those cards to the wear that newly sheet cut cards wouldn't experience.
And what I, or anyone, thought about sheet cut cards before PSA came along is irrelevant to the PSA grading discussion.
I don't have a problem with sheet cut cards - if you like them, you should collect them. Just don't whine about them not being accepted by PSA, because they clearly would require different grading standards.
<< <i>
I believe I stated AT THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL PRINTING
if I didnt, then I'm saying that now
>>
I believe as strongly about "time of original cutting" as you do about "time of original printing" even though I'm not capitalizing it in this sentence.
<< <i>If you have any specific questions regarding certain cards I'm sure we can explain why PSA does/does not grade a certain item. >>
no, i dont believe i have any questions
I've been "around" for a while
I'm not an expert, but I'm not a rookie
no, its not so much explainations that i need
its more of PSA getting out of the way & dictating certain things
I wish they would just do their job & GRADE ... EVERYTHING that comes their way
if its trimmed ... slab it trimmed
if its sheet cut ... grade it, state its sheet cut, and slab it
write as much as you can on the slabs to describe what was submitted
and let the colectors decide
that would give the impression more that you are objective
but when you write up the rules
dictate
and NOT offer choices
and say this is how it will be
thats not really giving options or being objective
I know ... dont use them
BUT ... alot of this pours into the hobby, and when you deal with other collectors
and the STIGMA thats created
thats MY opinion
<< <i>Do you allow PSA to tell you what & how to collect? >>
Isn't that the foundation of the PSA set registry?
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
no, I have no interest in money and premiums
I enjoy the cards & truly wish the older cards were not scare & inexpensive
that would make the hobby more enjoyable
I wish all cards were worth no more than a dollar
you made a comment & i asked that you show the source
obviously, it was just an opinion & not fact
no need to argue about it >>
I feel like im reading a poem with this writing style.
also....
"I wish all cards were worth no more than a dollar"
This made me laugh on so many levels.
<< <i>It seems like the discussion is getting off track. The OPs original question-- and I think it's a very good one- is whether board members have always looked down on sheet cut cards, or if this is the conclusion you came to only after learning that PSA would not grade them. If your answer is 'b'- and my suspicion is that this would be the correct answer for the overwhelming majority of board members, whether they care to admitted it or not- then why did PSA's opinion change your opinion? >>
My answer would be a as my opinion is not based on PSA's standard (which I happen to agree with) but that for me personally you just can't equate a card that was cut in the factory using 1970s equipment with a card cut from the sheet using 2013 equipment and technology, both for realistic and aesthetic reasons. How special would a PSA 9 1975 mini Claudell Washington be if it were cut from a sheet instead of in the factory?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
...Calling Mr. Mint.
<< <i>
I didn't post PSA guidelines, smart person.
Your original post (if you haven't edited it again) expressed some confusion as to why sheet-cuts aren't graded while other similar types (box bottoms) are. I'm attempting to give a possible answer.
And no, "original state" does not ONLY imply the cardboard used, but also the cut that was made, and the method they were distributed, thus subjecting those cards to the wear that newly sheet cut cards wouldn't experience.
And what I, or anyone, thought about sheet cut cards before PSA came along is irrelevant to the PSA grading discussion.
I don't have a problem with sheet cut cards - if you like them, you should collect them. Just don't whine about them not being accepted by PSA, because they clearly would require different grading standards. >>
I havent CHANGED ANY of my posts ... only typos ... show one different thing
And I have not whined ... I thought I was TALKING and having a discussion
But if I offend you so much, please just ignore me
Sorry, I will not attack people
I will only discuss
<< <i>
<< <i>If you have any specific questions regarding certain cards I'm sure we can explain why PSA does/does not grade a certain item. >>
no, i dont believe i have any questions
I've been "around" for a while
I'm not an expert, but I'm not a rookie
no, its not so much explainations that i need
its more of PSA getting out of the way & dictating certain things
I wish they would just do their job & GRADE ... EVERYTHING that comes their way
if its trimmed ... slab it trimmed
if its sheet cut ... grade it, state its sheet cut, and slab it
write as much as you can on the slabs to describe what was submitted
and let the colectors decide
that would give the impression more that you are objective
but when you write up the rules
dictate
and NOT offer choices
and say this is how it will be
thats not really giving options or being objective
I know ... dont use them
BUT ... alot of this pours into the hobby, and when you deal with other collectors
and the STIGMA thats created
thats MY opinion >>
Ok, but they can't grade a sheet cut card by the same standards, like give it a "9 sheet-cut" cuz it's not really a 9.
Refer back to Brick's vintage automobile analogy
<< <i>no, its not so much explainations that i need
its more of PSA getting out of the way & dictating certain things
I wish they would just do their job & GRADE ... EVERYTHING that comes their way
if its trimmed ... slab it trimmed
if its sheet cut ... grade it, state its sheet cut, and slab it
write as much as you can on the slabs to describe what was submitted
and let the colectors decide
that would give the impression more that you are objective
but when you write up the rules
dictate
and NOT offer choices
and say this is how it will be
thats not really giving options or being objective
I know ... dont use them
BUT ... alot of this pours into the hobby, and when you deal with other collectors
and the STIGMA thats created
thats MY opinion >>
If PSA slabbed "everything" it would open the flood gate for fraud, deception and it will dilute the market.
PSA is setting no rules for the hobby, they are simply willing to grade one thing and not the other. I am a CPA, we do background checks on all of our potential clients. If we find a history of fraud or deception we will decline the client 100 times out of 100. It is not our job to accept everyone - I have no obligation to accept them. We will protect our practice and our name. PSA has no obligation to grade a cutout piece of cardboard as a cutout. I have several 1975 Topps sets. I do not want sheet cut cards to ruin the integrity of those sets, NOT because PSA gives them a stigma, but simply because I have no interest in circa 2010 cardboard cutouts.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>Ok, but they can't grade a sheet cut card by the same standards, like give it a "9 sheet-cut" cuz it's not really a 9.
Refer back to Brick's vintage automobile analogy >>
sounds good to me