<< <i>I guess I'm having a problem seeing what the huge difference is between a card properly cut from a sheet at the factory and a card properly cut from a sheet outside the factory. Frankly I'm willing to bet that many such cards have been graded and many of you might own such cards right now and don't know it. So- put me in the "much ado about nothing" camp. >>
You are correct - many have been mistakenly graded. I didn't realize until I started watching certain low population numbers surge and rare 10's start appearing. I checked my collection closely and pulled out the sheet cuts and notified PSA.
It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
The key to collecting is to collect what you enjoy, and not be concerned with graders missing sheet cut cards.
If you're in it for money, or the prestige of the set registry, then that can become an issue.
Most choose to ignore the registry, ignore the chase for the perfect 10, and just collect what they enjoyed as a kid. It brings back childhood memories. And we don't care if it's an 8, 9, or 10, or where it came from.
<< <i>Sheet cut cards reflect that they haven't gone through anything in life except be recently cut up. It is very easy to tell the difference even if the cutter tried to replicate the factory like rough edges. >>
So, you're essentially saying that card companies cut cards in a way that can't be duplicated by anyone else? That sounds hard to believe. You might be able to tell that some cards have been sheet cut, but you still might be fooled by some other ones. It's not like they're all the same. Just like some counterfeit money fools no one, while other counterfeit money fools nearly everyone.
<< <i>Sheet cut cards reflect that they haven't gone through anything in life except be recently cut up. It is very easy to tell the difference even if the cutter tried to replicate the factory like rough edges. >>
So, you're essentially saying that card companies cut cards in a way that can't be duplicated by anyone else? That sounds hard to believe. You might be able to tell that some cards have been sheet cut, but you still might be fooled by some other ones. It's not like they're all the same. Just like some counterfeit money fools no one, while other counterfeit money fools nearly everyone. >>
I've had very good luck using a dissecting microscope to inspect the edges. You can clearly see a difference in oxidation rate between a fresh cut and a 30 year old one.
<< <i>I've had very good luck using a dissecting microscope to inspect the edges. You can clearly see a difference in oxidation rate between a fresh cut and a 30 year old one. >>
Fair enough. Do you take that thing to card shows?
That's a good idea. Unfortunately I am currently disabled by seizures and not able to drive for at least 6 more months. I guess that's why I have time to look at cards through microscopes. I am also seeing differences in fibre tear/cutting depending on the method used that become readily apparent under higher magnification.
I have two thoughts. 1. Unless Topps had some sort of "magically" inscripted unique cutting machine, I really don't see the possibility that PSA will be able to catch all professionally done sheet-cutting unless it was done by a 6 year old with rounded scissors To be honest, as long as the card is the right size, the cards were/are legitimately Topps. We are talking about original sheets correct? My greatest fear (increased with all the idiotic reprinting of classic cards because Topps is too lazy to think of new ones) is whether sheets can be reprinted with advancing technology and then recut and aged with other advanced technology. 2. Assuming that my paranoia in point 1 is exaggerated (and I am pretty certain it is). Then my next question is what is the scope we are actually talking about? For example, how many pristine (okay I get the reference) sheets from the 1970s are actually laying around? I tend to think that the number is incredibly small if I use the diminishing pool of unopened material as a reference. Is the problem greater in the 80s and 90s? I am sure this is a dead issue prior to the 1970s. So if there are almost no sheets out-there then "the basement dwelling dirtbag" is a one-off correct?
<< <i>Another board member said this in another thread and I just thought it was very well put:
"Personally, I think that as long as the right amount of cardboard is there, it's fine." >>
Matty, so you'd have no issues with someone trimming a "tall" 75 mini to the correct cardboard size?
I don't think we can just focus on the "end result" here...we need to look at the means to that end, to appreciate a card's true rarity and authenticity.
If the goal is to simply wind up with a mint or gem mint card, though, get the laser trimmers ready, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Just want to be clear, I did not say that was my exact view, just felt it should go here because it was so nicely put and represented a valid point of view on the topic.
As to my personal preferences and thoughts: I would always prefer a pack pulled card but totally see how some guys feel it ends with the factory printing and not also the factory cut. I really do respect every other opinion as collecting is about personal preferences.
Ultimately I put my trust in the company and brand that is paid to handle this topic and be the hobby/market leader: namely PSA. They state they will not grade sheet cut; they know what to look for; they train their experts to analyze and scrutinize-- and they have also proven they stand by cards in their (unbreached) slabs 100 percent. They do make good whenever they make a mistake, whether by bumping a worthy card on review or buying back one that slipped by the metaphorical goalie. So for me, if it's in a PSA holder I'm fine. And if I have further suspicions I take it down there and have it reviewed. Then I'm really fine. It removes any headache from the equation and headaches are the absolute last thing I want from cards-- which are all about happiness and enjoyment. And if a card can fool PSA even on review...either it is indeed legit or it's good enough for me. I am not the expert though I strive to know as much about cards as possible. They are the experts and end of the day we gotta admit they do a pretty damn fine job.
Just want to be clear, I did not say that was my exact view, just felt it should go here because it was so nicely put and represented a valid point of view on the topic.
As to my personal preferences and thoughts: I would always prefer a pack pulled card but totally see how some guys feel it ends with the factory printing and not also the factory cut. I really do respect every other opinion as collecting is about personal preferences.
Ultimately I put my trust in the company and brand that is paid to handle this topic and be the hobby/market leader: namely PSA. They state they will not grade sheet cut; they know what to look for; they train their experts to analyze and scrutinize-- and they have also proven they stand by cards in their (unbreached) slabs 100 percent. They do make good whenever they make a mistake, whether by bumping a worthy card on review or buying back one that slipped by the metaphorical goalie. So for me, if it's in a PSA holder I'm fine. And if I have further suspicions I take it down there and have it reviewed. Then I'm really fine. It removes any headache from the equation and headaches are the absolute last thing I want from cards-- which are all about happiness and enjoyment. And if a card can fool PSA even on review...either it is indeed legit or it's good enough for me. I am not the expert though I strive to know as much about cards as possible. They are the experts and end of the day we gotta admit they do a pretty damn fine job. >>
Don't worry, Matty, your PSA 10s are still valuable..
I will agree that there are a number of cards that will slip by the PSA graders despite their best efforts. For me, the question is not so much are there PSA graded cards in PSA holders but about one's viewpoint about whether a card that is cut from a sheet 40 years after issue using the benefits of modern technology with an eye towards getting a mint or gem mint grade can be honestly compared (realistically speaking) to a card cut in a factory by Topps using 1970s equipment and production methods with little to no concern about quality control. The latter part of that equation is why condition sensitive examples of certain cards are worth such a premium. And ironically speaking, such a premium is due in large part to issues that correlate with that card's placement on the sheet itself, as Topps did not cut those cards in the year of issue to frame that particular "money" card in the best, most appealing light.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Haha Tim thx! You say it clearly and who can debate that the sheet cut with eye toward mint doesn't have an advantage. Just gotta trust PSA to enforce their stance. Sitting at Mondrian soho bar having a drink drooling over REA preview--- though some of the women here are an equal distraction.
It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
The same company created all the sheets, thus they are by definition all "real", i.e, "genuine"... so that part of your statement is fallacious imo. And I contend that if a card exists on sheets as well as in singles, those extant on sheets should be considered part of the population of that card.
The thing that it seems people are getting their panties in a twist over is....if the factory cuts it from a sheet and does a good job, it's OK and "rare", but if someone else does just as good a job (if not better) cutting it from a sheet, then they're a crook... Really? The card is still an original Topps, Fleer, whatever...and it is part of the original print run... and it is in mint condition. So again, I guess I'm having a problem seeing the distinction here, not to mention that I tend to doubt that the so called experts can so easily tell the difference...
Actually, it is not very difficult to determine if a card from the 1960s and earlier has been cut/trimmed for several reasons. The edges on these cards do reflect a different era of cutting equipment. Often many multiple sheets were stacked and a cutting instrument would make the cut. The sheets on top received cleaner cuts than those toward the bottom. But even then, the edges on these cards reflect a much rougher cut than in the last 20-30 years. Heck, if you look at some 1956 Topps baseball you might think the sheets were creased and torn apart because the edges are so rough. If you look at these edges with a magnifying glass the roughness of the edges is very obvious and visable. So when an edge is later trimmed, the cut is smooth and doesn't reflect the roughness. Next, the natural aging of the card causes the edges to somewhat darken compared to when it was fresh. A trimmed card will have an edge that is clean and fresh because the new edge hasn't been exposed to the aging process. The more you look at edges, the better you become at identifying the work of those who practice card altering.
As the 1970s-80s cards were produced, cutting techniques were vastly improved. But even then it is fairly easy to spot a trimmed card as the edges were not laser sharp like on today's cards. Once again trimming produces a much smoother edge that is of a fresh cardboard color compared to the other edges. Trimmed cards from the 1990s to now are much tougher to detect unless you are using higher power scopes, etc. PSA has the equipment to evaluate edges very well.
Those of us who place great value on the original condition of cards that were printed, cut, packaged and then sold might well view cards from sheets from same years that are cut years later by more modern equipment to be non-equivalent. I admit the view is that of a traditionalist but that is me.
<< <i>It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
The same company created all the sheets, thus they are by definition all "real", i.e, "genuine"... so that part of your statement is fallacious imo. And I contend that if a card exists on sheets as well as in singles, those extant on sheets should be considered part of the population of that card.
The thing that it seems people are getting their panties in a twist over is....if the factory cuts it from a sheet and does a good job, it's OK and "rare", but if someone else does just as good a job (if not better) cutting it from a sheet, then they're a crook... Really? The card is still an original Topps, Fleer, whatever...and it is part of the original print run... and it is in mint condition. So again, I guess I'm having a problem seeing the distinction here, not to mention that I tend to doubt that the so called experts can so easily tell the difference... >>
You are completely missing the point. The main reason that vintage cards, and specifically "condition sensitive" or "low pop" cards are as tough as they are to find in high grade is due to the primitive production methods employed by Topps during that era, and in the case of tougher low pop cards, the fact that such cards are as scarce as they are in high grade because examples that could be considered "mint" were so few and far between coming out of the factory. If we can simply fabricate such cards in mint grade, then the truly tough mint examples cease to be as scarce and by entension, as valuable, simply because there are more examples of that specific card in existence.
If you can't see why a mint card from 1975 that was cut in the Topps factory in 1975 is not the same as a card cut in 2013 using modern day technology and equipment, eevn if the sheet itself is original, you really don't understand what vintage card collecting and set building is all about. You are also misunderstanding the concept of the population report in your above statement--the pop report is not used to determine the total number of examples of a specific card, but the "population" of such a card in each grade from PSA 1 to PSA 10.
The people cutting cards from sheets understand this distinction, too. Otherwise, they wouldn't pay as much as they do to acquire these sheets simply to cut them up and hopefully deceive the TPG into holdering them. And unlike in the Topps factory, where very likely 8 out of 10 examples of a specific card probably grades PSA 8 or worse even straight off the production line, the sheet cutters (if they know what they are doing) will turn that ratio to 8 out of 10 at PSA 8 (and in most cases, PSA 9) or BETTER.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Welcome to the forum, I'll try to answer the 84 Nestle aspect. Nestle had 2 sets that year, one is a small 22 or 33 card set and was and is gradable, for some reason they also graded the 84 Topps look-alike (I think by accident) they then stopped grading them but many folks had already registered them in player registries, after about a 5 year hiatus and many folks wanting them to grade them they decided to grade them once again, IIRC they have always received a numerical grade. Marc Shoenen would know more than I regarding this but that is my recollection. To answer your original question PSA did not sway my opinion regarding sheet cut cards I was against the idea of them (being original) or as good as originals from day 1.
Then my next question is what is the scope we are actually talking about? For example, how many pristine (okay I get the reference) sheets from the 1970s are actually laying around? I tend to think that the number is incredibly small if I use the diminishing pool of unopened material as a reference
I think it's actually more than people think. Just look at how many really nice vintage sheets were posted in just a few hours on this forum in the uncut sheet thread.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
The same company created all the sheets, thus they are by definition all "real", i.e, "genuine"... so that part of your statement is fallacious imo. And I contend that if a card exists on sheets as well as in singles, those extant on sheets should be considered part of the population of that card.
The thing that it seems people are getting their panties in a twist over is....if the factory cuts it from a sheet and does a good job, it's OK and "rare", but if someone else does just as good a job (if not better) cutting it from a sheet, then they're a crook... Really? The card is still an original Topps, Fleer, whatever...and it is part of the original print run... and it is in mint condition. So again, I guess I'm having a problem seeing the distinction here, not to mention that I tend to doubt that the so called experts can so easily tell the difference... >>
You are completely missing the point. The main reason that vintage cards, and specifically "condition sensitive" or "low pop" cards are as tough as they are to find in high grade is due to the primitive production methods employed by Topps during that era, and in the case of tougher low pop cards, the fact that such cards are as scarce as they are in high grade because examples that could be considered "mint" were so few and far between coming out of the factory. If we can simply fabricate such cards in mint grade, then the truly tough mint examples cease to be as scarce and by entension, as valuable, simply because there are more examples of that specific card in existence.
If you can't see why a mint card from 1975 that was cut in the Topps factory in 1975 is not the same as a card cut in 2013 using modern day technology and equipment, eevn if the sheet itself is original, you really don't understand what vintage card collecting and set building is all about. You are also misunderstanding the concept of the population report in your above statement--the pop report is not used to determine the total number of examples of a specific card, but the "population" of such a card in each grade from PSA 1 to PSA 10.
The people cutting cards from sheets understand this distinction, too. Otherwise, they wouldn't pay as much as they do to acquire these sheets simply to cut them up and hopefully deceive the TPG into holdering them. And unlike in the Topps factory, where very likely 8 out of 10 examples of a specific card probably grades PSA 8 or worse even straight off the production line, the sheet cutters (if they know what they are doing) will turn that ratio to 8 out of 10 at PSA 8 (and in most cases, PSA 9) or BETTER. >>
I appreciate the lecture but I'm totally familiar with the concept of pop reports as I've been dealing in coins/currency for 3 decades and counting. Pop reports really create an air of artificial rarity. A pop X means that only X number of people who bothered to have the card graded with that particular service received that grade. There could be X+50, X+100 or more out there that no one's bothered to submit to anyone.
Cards aren't much different and are similar to currency IMO. An analogy, if you will:
If one has an uncut sheet of notes that gets cut into pristine singles, no doubt owners of slightly less pristine examples will get their noses out of joint because their note is now no longer 'top dog', but that's a risk you take when paying large money for something knowing that multiple uncut sheets of it exist. Arguing that one's note is somehow more valuable or original because it was sloppily cut when issued would be silly... and it's no different with cards in my view. As long as the card is original and from an orignal sheet... if it looks better, it should grade higher regardless of who cut it and when.
<< <i>Cards aren't much different and are similar to currency IMO. An analogy, if you will:
If one has an uncut sheet of notes that gets cut into pristine singles, no doubt owners of slightly less pristine examples will get their noses out of joint because their note is now no longer 'top dog', but that's a risk you take when paying large money for something knowing that multiple uncut sheets of it exist. Arguing that one's note is somehow more valuable or original because it was sloppily cut when issued would be silly... and it's no different with cards in my view. As long as the card is original and from an orignal sheet... if it looks better, it should grade higher regardless of who cut it and when.
JMHO >>
If you like, I can direct you to a few ebay sellers who couldn't agree with you more.
If you like, I can direct you to a few ebay sellers who couldn't agree with you more.
Would those be the crooks or the thieves?
I guess I was looking for someone to make a case against my contentions that amounts to more than a long winded version of "it's bad because it costs me money". It's not their fault that others paid moon money for things that they knew existed in multiple uncut sheets. In the coin arena, people break up sets for singles. In the currency arena, people cut sheets for singles. So why is it somehow evil/unethical/crooked for a card seller to do so, as long as the card is not a reprint or counterfeit and as long as it is being represented accurately?
Comparing vintage cards to sheets of currency is apples vs oranges. If you can't understand the difference between authentic cut cards and sheet cut cards, there's really no point in trying to enlighten you further. It's not about costing money, it's about authenticity.
Another salient point to consider : PSA officially states that they do not holder sheet cut cards, so submitting them is an exercise in deception in any case. If you disagree with PSA's stance, don't use their services, simple as that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
One last time- once you've acknowledged the sheet's authentic, then by definition the card cut from it must be authentic. The big stink is apparently because it wasn't cut (poorly) with an "authentic" shear and said cutting wasn't done right then and there, the card magically becomes spurious. A real vintage card is still a real vintage card. You can argue value, you can argue market acceptability, but you certainly can't argue authenticity.
Again, you are mistaken. The process of cutting the card in the factory during the year of issue is inextricably linked to the card's authenticity. You cannot disregard that aspect when asserting your case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Cards that come from the factory=clean players. Cards that are cut from a sheet using current technology=players on steroids. Now do you get it? >>
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I would pass on sheet cut cards before Psa was in the picture. That is my answer to the original question.
I agree with all of grote15's posts in this thread....unless he said something good about the Mets....
If I had even a hint that my Psa 9 or 10 1975 mini Yount or Brett rookie cards were sheet cut, I would not want them in my collection. But that is just me. I just would not be happy with them.
<< <i>One last time- once you've acknowledged the sheet's authentic, then by definition the card cut from it must be authentic. The big stink is apparently because it wasn't cut (poorly) with an "authentic" shear and said cutting wasn't done right then and there, the card magically becomes spurious. A real vintage card is still a real vintage card. You can argue value, you can argue market acceptability, but you certainly can't argue authenticity. >>
<< <i>One last time- once you've acknowledged the sheet's authentic, then by definition the card cut from it must be authentic. The big stink is apparently because it wasn't cut (poorly) with an "authentic" shear and said cutting wasn't done right then and there, the card magically becomes spurious. A real vintage card is still a real vintage card. You can argue value, you can argue market acceptability, but you certainly can't argue authenticity. >>
>>
Figures the OP of this thread would have this viewpoint on the topic.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If I had even a hint that my Psa 9 or 10 1975 mini Yount or Brett rookie cards were sheet cut, I would not want them in my collection. But that is just me. I just would not be happy with them. >>
If I had even a hint that my Psa 9 or 10 1975 mini Yount or Brett rookie cards were sheet cut, I would not want them in my collection. But that is just me. I just would not be happy with them.
...but (in your hypothetical) you were perfectly happy before that...so what changed about the card? Nothing. It's still genuine, it's still from the period, and it obviously pases muster with PSA if they slabbed it. It's not like you found out it was counterfeit. That would be a different argument and in that case it would be a valid one. But a genuine card cut from a genuine sheet doesn't magically become fake if someone other than the factory cuts it. The only thing that changed is perhaps your perception. That doesn't magically make it a fake either.
I actually have no dog in this fight one way or the other as I don't cut sheets; in fact I own no sheets of cards but I'm looking at liquidating some things in the card arena shortly. I'm just trying to get into the minds of the diehards and understand how some people can be so absolute about this when frankly I'm willing to bet that the preponderance couldn't tell the difference.
The card did not physically change. My perception changed. That is good enough for me. I would have first thought that it was a factory cut at the date of issue and survived as an original high grade example with one of the top grading companies stating an opinion that it is such. The fact that the grading company states they do not grade sheet cut cards would have cemented my decision to purchase the item(s). However, if I was given information about my card to suggest something different or counter to my original reasons to make the purchase then I would not want this card(s) any longer.
<< <i>The card did not physically change. My perception changed. That is good enough for me. I would have first thought that it was a factory cut at the date of issue and survived as an original high grade example with one of the top grading companies stating an opinion that it is such. The fact that the grading company states they do not grade sheet cut cards would have cemented my decision to purchase the item(s). However, if I was given information about my card to suggest something different or counter to my original reasons to make the purchase then I would not want this card(s) any longer.
So the card did not change but my perception did. >>
I agree with all of this. My issue, if it wasn't already clear, is that it appears you're attempting to pour salt on the wounds of one of the hobby's good guys. He is a passionate collector and those cards are/were some of his most prized hobby acquisitions. He has no recourse and will likely take a big hit based on a rumor. It would be a shame if this soured him on the hobby and he decided to leave.
<< <i>telephoto1, the fact that Topps cut it, 30+ years ago, and the card survived the test of time in whatever packaging Topps chose, is what gives the card it's special value.
These elements are all important, and are what make a card a card. Take any part away and it becomes something less, and something different. >>
So can any of us see a card in a PSA 9-10 holder and call it sheet cut? That would be an awesome way to reverse shill a card we might want to add to our collection. See a nice Psa 10 on eBay, call it sheet cut, rumors starts card drops...
I would rather trust the expert whise opinion we all pay top dollar for over a random opinion posted to their message boards. If PSA says its not cut, it's authentic and that's good for me.
<< <i>The card did not physically change. My perception changed. That is good enough for me. I would have first thought that it was a factory cut at the date of issue and survived as an original high grade example with one of the top grading companies stating an opinion that it is such. The fact that the grading company states they do not grade sheet cut cards would have cemented my decision to purchase the item(s). However, if I was given information about my card to suggest something different or counter to my original reasons to make the purchase then I would not want this card(s) any longer.
So the card did not change but my perception did. >>
I agree with all of this. My issue, if it wasn't already clear, is that it appears you're attempting to pour salt on the wounds of one of the hobby's good guys. He is a passionate collector and those cards are/were some of his most prized hobby acquisitions. He has no recourse and will likely take a big hit based on a rumor. It would be a shame if this soured him on the hobby and he decided to leave. >>
It's a tough hobby out there. I am not attempting to target anyone in particular intentionally. I mentioned the cards I did due to the comments made on another thread I participate in. I'm just giving my opinion. That is all. Nothing more.
I got as much passion for the hobby as anyone here. I've taken it on the chin over the years when I put too much faith in card grading and the experts. I have been fortunate enough to not overextend myself and find recourse. Recourse is always there.
There are plenty of reasons to be soured on this hobby to due past, present, and without a doubt future actions by greedy and unscrupulous people in the hobby. I have been a board member here since the inception. I have seen and heard it all. I'm still here. If I didn't look for answers to my questions and participate here I probably would have spent more in this hobby. I would probably have (and still might) all kinds of bad stuff. The issues I have seen has caused me to spend much less than I could have and collect less. So, sure, it sucks. But this hobby is not for the faint of heart. I appreciate all those that have taught me the hard lessons of this hobby.
"If my answers frighten anyone then I guess they should cease asking scary questions." Jules....
<< <i>It's a tough hobby out there. I am not attempting to target anyone in particular intentionally. I mentioned the cards I did due to the comments made on another thread I participate in. I'm just giving my opinion. That is all. Nothing more.
I got as much passion for the hobby as anyone here. I've taken it on the chin over the years when I put too much faith in card grading and the experts. I have been fortunate enough to not overextend myself and find recourse. Recourse is always there.
There are plenty of reasons to be soured on this hobby to due past, present, and without a doubt future actions by greedy and unscrupulous people in the hobby. I have been a board member here since the inception. I have seen and heard it all. I'm still here. If I didn't look for answers to my questions and participate here I probably would have spent more in this hobby. I would probably have (and still might) all kinds of bad stuff. The issues I have seen has caused me to spend much less than I could have and collect less. So, sure, it sucks. But this hobby is not for the faint of heart. I appreciate all those that have taught me the hard lessons of this hobby.
"If my answers frighten anyone then I guess they should cease asking scary questions." Jules....
aconte >>
Well said Tony.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
I think Tony phrased things quite well. PSA are definitely the experts, but discussions like this one are beneficial to collectors, imo..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In my opinion, a sheet cut card has been altered just as much as if it had been trimmed or recolored. Someone has changed it from the state in which it was issued by Topps.
<< <i>telephoto1, the fact that Topps cut it, 30+ years ago, and the card survived the test of time in whatever packaging Topps chose, is what gives the card it's special value.
These elements are all important, and are what make a card a card. Take any part away and it becomes something less, and something different. >>
Here's a seemingly fresh perspective to play devil's advocate ...
For all who've stated "cards which survived +30 years" and the "test of time" are more valuable than sheet-cut cards circa 2013 ...
Cards from factory :: any raw, non-slabbed card, in the year 2040 Cards from sheets :: slabbed version of the same card, from your PSA collection, in 2040
Basically you have a small hypocrisy. If you truly value cards in pristine condition because they've been carefully handled and preserved over decades, and you collect them because they are valuable in such condition, then why do you slab them? Wouldn't it make more sense to leave them raw in an album, where they will be safe (and raw) many years from now and thus even more valuable?
If pristine condition is more important than the player, or rarity, etc. ... then why are sheet-cut cards so horrible?
OK bring it on
edit: I do not believe sheet-cut cards should be slabbed. However, I do believe in defining the very FINE LINE between preservation (slabs, acid-free album pages, etc) and whatever sheet-cut cards are (they aren't fake, they're something else but I'm drawing a blank)
Comments
<< <i>I guess I'm having a problem seeing what the huge difference is between a card properly cut from a sheet at the factory and a card properly cut from a sheet outside the factory. Frankly I'm willing to bet that many such cards have been graded and many of you might own such cards right now and don't know it. So- put me in the "much ado about nothing" camp. >>
You are correct - many have been mistakenly graded. I didn't realize until I started watching certain low population numbers surge and rare 10's start appearing. I checked my collection closely and pulled out the sheet cuts and notified PSA.
It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
If you're in it for money, or the prestige of the set registry, then that can become an issue.
Most choose to ignore the registry, ignore the chase for the perfect 10, and just collect what they enjoyed as a kid.
It brings back childhood memories. And we don't care if it's an 8, 9, or 10, or where it came from.
<< <i>Sheet cut cards reflect that they haven't gone through anything in life except be recently cut up. It is very easy to tell the difference even if the cutter tried to replicate the factory like rough edges. >>
So, you're essentially saying that card companies cut cards in a way that can't be duplicated by anyone else? That sounds hard to believe. You might be able to tell that some cards have been sheet cut, but you still might be fooled by some other ones. It's not like they're all the same. Just like some counterfeit money fools no one, while other counterfeit money fools nearly everyone.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sheet cut cards reflect that they haven't gone through anything in life except be recently cut up. It is very easy to tell the difference even if the cutter tried to replicate the factory like rough edges. >>
So, you're essentially saying that card companies cut cards in a way that can't be duplicated by anyone else? That sounds hard to believe. You might be able to tell that some cards have been sheet cut, but you still might be fooled by some other ones. It's not like they're all the same. Just like some counterfeit money fools no one, while other counterfeit money fools nearly everyone. >>
I've had very good luck using a dissecting microscope to inspect the edges. You can clearly see a difference in oxidation rate between a fresh cut and a 30 year old one.
<< <i>I've had very good luck using a dissecting microscope to inspect the edges. You can clearly see a difference in oxidation rate between a fresh cut and a 30 year old one. >>
Fair enough. Do you take that thing to card shows?
I am also seeing differences in fibre tear/cutting depending on the method used that become readily apparent under higher magnification.
1. Unless Topps had some sort of "magically" inscripted unique cutting machine, I really don't see the possibility that PSA will be able to catch all professionally done sheet-cutting unless it was done by a 6 year old with rounded scissors
2. Assuming that my paranoia in point 1 is exaggerated (and I am pretty certain it is). Then my next question is what is the scope we are actually talking about? For example, how many pristine (okay I get the reference) sheets from the 1970s are actually laying around? I tend to think that the number is incredibly small if I use the diminishing pool of unopened material as a reference. Is the problem greater in the 80s and 90s? I am sure this is a dead issue prior to the 1970s. So if there are almost no sheets out-there then "the basement dwelling dirtbag" is a one-off correct?
<< <i>"Personally, I think that as long as the right amount of cardboard is there, it's fine."
<< <i>Another board member said this in another thread and I just thought it was very well put:
"Personally, I think that as long as the right amount of cardboard is there, it's fine." >>
Matty, so you'd have no issues with someone trimming a "tall" 75 mini to the correct cardboard size?
I don't think we can just focus on the "end result" here...we need to look at the means to that end, to appreciate a card's true rarity and authenticity.
If the goal is to simply wind up with a mint or gem mint card, though, get the laser trimmers ready, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
+1
Very well said.
Just want to be clear, I did not say that was my exact view, just felt it should go here because it was so nicely put and represented a valid point of view on the topic.
As to my personal preferences and thoughts: I would always prefer a pack pulled card but totally see how some guys feel it ends with the factory printing and not also the factory cut. I really do respect every other opinion as collecting is about personal preferences.
Ultimately I put my trust in the company and brand that is paid to handle this topic and be the hobby/market leader: namely PSA. They state they will not grade sheet cut; they know what to look for; they train their experts to analyze and scrutinize-- and they have also proven they stand by cards in their (unbreached) slabs 100 percent. They do make good whenever they make a mistake, whether by bumping a worthy card on review or buying back one that slipped by the metaphorical goalie. So for me, if it's in a PSA holder I'm fine. And if I have further suspicions I take it down there and have it reviewed. Then I'm really fine. It removes any headache from the equation and headaches are the absolute last thing I want from cards-- which are all about happiness and enjoyment. And if a card can fool PSA even on review...either it is indeed legit or it's good enough for me. I am not the expert though I strive to know as much about cards as possible. They are the experts and end of the day we gotta admit they do a pretty damn fine job.
<< <i>Hi Tim,
Just want to be clear, I did not say that was my exact view, just felt it should go here because it was so nicely put and represented a valid point of view on the topic.
As to my personal preferences and thoughts: I would always prefer a pack pulled card but totally see how some guys feel it ends with the factory printing and not also the factory cut. I really do respect every other opinion as collecting is about personal preferences.
Ultimately I put my trust in the company and brand that is paid to handle this topic and be the hobby/market leader: namely PSA. They state they will not grade sheet cut; they know what to look for; they train their experts to analyze and scrutinize-- and they have also proven they stand by cards in their (unbreached) slabs 100 percent. They do make good whenever they make a mistake, whether by bumping a worthy card on review or buying back one that slipped by the metaphorical goalie. So for me, if it's in a PSA holder I'm fine. And if I have further suspicions I take it down there and have it reviewed. Then I'm really fine. It removes any headache from the equation and headaches are the absolute last thing I want from cards-- which are all about happiness and enjoyment. And if a card can fool PSA even on review...either it is indeed legit or it's good enough for me. I am not the expert though I strive to know as much about cards as possible. They are the experts and end of the day we gotta admit they do a pretty damn fine job. >>
Don't worry, Matty, your PSA 10s are still valuable..
I will agree that there are a number of cards that will slip by the PSA graders despite their best efforts. For me, the question is not so much are there PSA graded cards in PSA holders but about one's viewpoint about whether a card that is cut from a sheet 40 years after issue using the benefits of modern technology with an eye towards getting a mint or gem mint grade can be honestly compared (realistically speaking) to a card cut in a factory by Topps using 1970s equipment and production methods with little to no concern about quality control. The latter part of that equation is why condition sensitive examples of certain cards are worth such a premium. And ironically speaking, such a premium is due in large part to issues that correlate with that card's placement on the sheet itself, as Topps did not cut those cards in the year of issue to frame that particular "money" card in the best, most appealing light.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The same company created all the sheets, thus they are by definition all "real", i.e, "genuine"... so that part of your statement is fallacious imo. And I contend that if a card exists on sheets as well as in singles, those extant on sheets should be considered part of the population of that card.
The thing that it seems people are getting their panties in a twist over is....if the factory cuts it from a sheet and does a good job, it's OK and "rare", but if someone else does just as good a job (if not better) cutting it from a sheet, then they're a crook... Really? The card is still an original Topps, Fleer, whatever...and it is part of the original print run... and it is in mint condition. So again, I guess I'm having a problem seeing the distinction here, not to mention that I tend to doubt that the so called experts can so easily tell the difference...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
As the 1970s-80s cards were produced, cutting techniques were vastly improved. But even then it is fairly easy to spot a trimmed card as the edges were not laser sharp like on today's cards. Once again trimming produces a much smoother edge that is of a fresh cardboard color compared to the other edges. Trimmed cards from the 1990s to now are much tougher to detect unless you are using higher power scopes, etc. PSA has the equipment to evaluate edges very well.
Those of us who place great value on the original condition of cards that were printed, cut, packaged and then sold might well view cards from sheets from same years that are cut years later by more modern equipment to be non-equivalent. I admit the view is that of a traditionalist but that is me.
<< <i>It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
The same company created all the sheets, thus they are by definition all "real", i.e, "genuine"... so that part of your statement is fallacious imo. And I contend that if a card exists on sheets as well as in singles, those extant on sheets should be considered part of the population of that card.
The thing that it seems people are getting their panties in a twist over is....if the factory cuts it from a sheet and does a good job, it's OK and "rare", but if someone else does just as good a job (if not better) cutting it from a sheet, then they're a crook... Really? The card is still an original Topps, Fleer, whatever...and it is part of the original print run... and it is in mint condition. So again, I guess I'm having a problem seeing the distinction here, not to mention that I tend to doubt that the so called experts can so easily tell the difference... >>
You are completely missing the point. The main reason that vintage cards, and specifically "condition sensitive" or "low pop" cards are as tough as they are to find in high grade is due to the primitive production methods employed by Topps during that era, and in the case of tougher low pop cards, the fact that such cards are as scarce as they are in high grade because examples that could be considered "mint" were so few and far between coming out of the factory. If we can simply fabricate such cards in mint grade, then the truly tough mint examples cease to be as scarce and by entension, as valuable, simply because there are more examples of that specific card in existence.
If you can't see why a mint card from 1975 that was cut in the Topps factory in 1975 is not the same as a card cut in 2013 using modern day technology and equipment, eevn if the sheet itself is original, you really don't understand what vintage card collecting and set building is all about. You are also misunderstanding the concept of the population report in your above statement--the pop report is not used to determine the total number of examples of a specific card, but the "population" of such a card in each grade from PSA 1 to PSA 10.
The people cutting cards from sheets understand this distinction, too. Otherwise, they wouldn't pay as much as they do to acquire these sheets simply to cut them up and hopefully deceive the TPG into holdering them. And unlike in the Topps factory, where very likely 8 out of 10 examples of a specific card probably grades PSA 8 or worse even straight off the production line, the sheet cutters (if they know what they are doing) will turn that ratio to 8 out of 10 at PSA 8 (and in most cases, PSA 9) or BETTER.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
one is a small 22 or 33 card set and was and is gradable, for some reason they also graded
the 84 Topps look-alike (I think by accident) they then stopped grading them but many folks
had already registered them in player registries, after about a 5 year hiatus and many folks
wanting them to grade them they decided to grade them once again, IIRC they have always
received a numerical grade. Marc Shoenen would know more than I regarding this but that is
my recollection. To answer your original question PSA did not sway my opinion regarding sheet cut cards
I was against the idea of them (being original) or as good as originals from day 1.
Steve
I think it's actually more than people think. Just look at how many really nice vintage sheets were posted in just a few hours on this forum in the uncut sheet thread.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>It isn't much ado about nothing since a rare rookie Pop 1 PSA 10 that is worth 5 grand suddenly drops to 3k after it becomes Pop 4 due to three sheets being cut. That's 9k to a crook and the owner of the real one is out of pocket.
The same company created all the sheets, thus they are by definition all "real", i.e, "genuine"... so that part of your statement is fallacious imo. And I contend that if a card exists on sheets as well as in singles, those extant on sheets should be considered part of the population of that card.
The thing that it seems people are getting their panties in a twist over is....if the factory cuts it from a sheet and does a good job, it's OK and "rare", but if someone else does just as good a job (if not better) cutting it from a sheet, then they're a crook... Really? The card is still an original Topps, Fleer, whatever...and it is part of the original print run... and it is in mint condition. So again, I guess I'm having a problem seeing the distinction here, not to mention that I tend to doubt that the so called experts can so easily tell the difference... >>
You are completely missing the point. The main reason that vintage cards, and specifically "condition sensitive" or "low pop" cards are as tough as they are to find in high grade is due to the primitive production methods employed by Topps during that era, and in the case of tougher low pop cards, the fact that such cards are as scarce as they are in high grade because examples that could be considered "mint" were so few and far between coming out of the factory. If we can simply fabricate such cards in mint grade, then the truly tough mint examples cease to be as scarce and by entension, as valuable, simply because there are more examples of that specific card in existence.
If you can't see why a mint card from 1975 that was cut in the Topps factory in 1975 is not the same as a card cut in 2013 using modern day technology and equipment, eevn if the sheet itself is original, you really don't understand what vintage card collecting and set building is all about. You are also misunderstanding the concept of the population report in your above statement--the pop report is not used to determine the total number of examples of a specific card, but the "population" of such a card in each grade from PSA 1 to PSA 10.
The people cutting cards from sheets understand this distinction, too. Otherwise, they wouldn't pay as much as they do to acquire these sheets simply to cut them up and hopefully deceive the TPG into holdering them. And unlike in the Topps factory, where very likely 8 out of 10 examples of a specific card probably grades PSA 8 or worse even straight off the production line, the sheet cutters (if they know what they are doing) will turn that ratio to 8 out of 10 at PSA 8 (and in most cases, PSA 9) or BETTER. >>
I appreciate the lecture but I'm totally familiar with the concept of pop reports as I've been dealing in coins/currency for 3 decades and counting. Pop reports really create an air of artificial rarity. A pop X means that only X number of people who bothered to have the card graded with that particular service received that grade. There could be X+50, X+100 or more out there that no one's bothered to submit to anyone.
Cards aren't much different and are similar to currency IMO. An analogy, if you will:
If one has an uncut sheet of notes that gets cut into pristine singles, no doubt owners of slightly less pristine examples will get their noses out of joint because their note is now no longer 'top dog', but that's a risk you take when paying large money for something knowing that multiple uncut sheets of it exist. Arguing that one's note is somehow more valuable or original because it was sloppily cut when issued would be silly... and it's no different with cards in my view. As long as the card is original and from an orignal sheet... if it looks better, it should grade higher regardless of who cut it and when.
JMHO
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Cards aren't much different and are similar to currency IMO. An analogy, if you will:
If one has an uncut sheet of notes that gets cut into pristine singles, no doubt owners of slightly less pristine examples will get their noses out of joint because their note is now no longer 'top dog', but that's a risk you take when paying large money for something knowing that multiple uncut sheets of it exist. Arguing that one's note is somehow more valuable or original because it was sloppily cut when issued would be silly... and it's no different with cards in my view. As long as the card is original and from an orignal sheet... if it looks better, it should grade higher regardless of who cut it and when.
JMHO >>
If you like, I can direct you to a few ebay sellers who couldn't agree with you more.
Would those be the crooks or the thieves?
I guess I was looking for someone to make a case against my contentions that amounts to more than a long winded version of "it's bad because it costs me money".
It's not their fault that others paid moon money for things that they knew existed in multiple uncut sheets.
In the coin arena, people break up sets for singles.
In the currency arena, people cut sheets for singles.
So why is it somehow evil/unethical/crooked for a card seller to do so, as long as the card is not a reprint or counterfeit and as long as it is being represented accurately?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Another salient point to consider : PSA officially states that they do not holder sheet cut cards, so submitting them is an exercise in deception in any case. If you disagree with PSA's stance, don't use their services, simple as that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Cards that are cut from a sheet using current technology=players on steroids.
Now do you get it?
<< <i>Cards that come from the factory=clean players.
Cards that are cut from a sheet using current technology=players on steroids.
Now do you get it? >>
This gotta be close to a record for a 1st post.
+133
I would pass on sheet cut cards before Psa was in the picture. That is my answer to the original question.
I agree with all of grote15's posts in this thread....unless he said something good about the Mets....
If I had even a hint that my Psa 9 or 10 1975 mini Yount or Brett rookie cards were sheet cut, I would not want them in my collection. But that is just me. I just
would not be happy with them.
aconte
<< <i>One last time- once you've acknowledged the sheet's authentic, then by definition the card cut from it must be authentic. The big stink is apparently because it wasn't cut (poorly) with an "authentic" shear and said cutting wasn't done right then and there, the card magically becomes spurious. A real vintage card is still a real vintage card. You can argue value, you can argue market acceptability, but you certainly can't argue authenticity. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>One last time- once you've acknowledged the sheet's authentic, then by definition the card cut from it must be authentic. The big stink is apparently because it wasn't cut (poorly) with an "authentic" shear and said cutting wasn't done right then and there, the card magically becomes spurious. A real vintage card is still a real vintage card. You can argue value, you can argue market acceptability, but you certainly can't argue authenticity. >>
Figures the OP of this thread would have this viewpoint on the topic.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If I had even a hint that my Psa 9 or 10 1975 mini Yount or Brett rookie cards were sheet cut, I would not want them in my collection. But that is just me. I just would not be happy with them. >>
Stay classy aconte.
would not be happy with them.
...but (in your hypothetical) you were perfectly happy before that...so what changed about the card? Nothing. It's still genuine, it's still from the period, and it obviously pases muster with PSA if they slabbed it. It's not like you found out it was counterfeit. That would be a different argument and in that case it would be a valid one. But a genuine card cut from a genuine sheet doesn't magically become fake if someone other than the factory cuts it.
The only thing that changed is perhaps your perception. That doesn't magically make it a fake either.
I actually have no dog in this fight one way or the other as I don't cut sheets; in fact I own no sheets of cards but I'm looking at liquidating some things in the card arena shortly. I'm just trying to get into the minds of the diehards and understand how some people can be so absolute about this when frankly I'm willing to bet that the preponderance couldn't tell the difference.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The card did not physically change. My perception changed. That is good enough for me. I would have first thought that it was a factory cut at the date of issue and survived as an original high
grade example with one of the top grading companies stating an opinion that it is such. The fact that the grading company states they do not grade sheet cut cards would have cemented my
decision to purchase the item(s). However, if I was given information about my card to suggest something different or counter to my original reasons to make the purchase then I would not
want this card(s) any longer.
So the card did not change but my perception did.
Always classy maurice!
aconte
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
...indeed, congratulations!
Cards that came from the factory=Seeing the Eiffel Tower in Paris.
Cards that were cut from sheets=Seeing the Eiffel Tower in Las Vegas.
<< <i>The card did not physically change. My perception changed. That is good enough for me. I would have first thought that it was a factory cut at the date of issue and survived as an original high
grade example with one of the top grading companies stating an opinion that it is such. The fact that the grading company states they do not grade sheet cut cards would have cemented my
decision to purchase the item(s). However, if I was given information about my card to suggest something different or counter to my original reasons to make the purchase then I would not
want this card(s) any longer.
So the card did not change but my perception did. >>
I agree with all of this. My issue, if it wasn't already clear, is that it appears you're attempting to pour salt on the wounds of one of the hobby's good guys. He is a passionate collector and those cards are/were some of his most prized hobby acquisitions. He has no recourse and will likely take a big hit based on a rumor. It would be a shame if this soured him on the hobby and he decided to leave.
<< <i>What this thread needs is a few more metaphors of what sheet cut cards are like.
Cards that came from the factory=Seeing the Eiffel Tower in Paris.
Cards that were cut from sheets=Seeing the Eiffel Tower in Las Vegas. >>
Cards that come from factory - walking from New York to L.A.
Cards that come from sheets - flying there
BTW - is it just me or have sheets been popping up for sale all over the place since the start of this thread?
What am I missing ?
<< <i>telephoto1, the fact that Topps cut it, 30+ years ago, and the card survived the test of time in whatever packaging Topps chose, is what gives the card it's special value.
These elements are all important, and are what make a card a card. Take any part away and it becomes something less, and something different. >>
Seriously?
I would rather trust the expert whise opinion we all pay top dollar for over a random opinion posted to their message boards. If PSA says its not cut, it's authentic and that's good for me.
<< <i>
<< <i>The card did not physically change. My perception changed. That is good enough for me. I would have first thought that it was a factory cut at the date of issue and survived as an original high
grade example with one of the top grading companies stating an opinion that it is such. The fact that the grading company states they do not grade sheet cut cards would have cemented my
decision to purchase the item(s). However, if I was given information about my card to suggest something different or counter to my original reasons to make the purchase then I would not
want this card(s) any longer.
So the card did not change but my perception did. >>
I agree with all of this. My issue, if it wasn't already clear, is that it appears you're attempting to pour salt on the wounds of one of the hobby's good guys. He is a passionate collector and those cards are/were some of his most prized hobby acquisitions. He has no recourse and will likely take a big hit based on a rumor. It would be a shame if this soured him on the hobby and he decided to leave. >>
It's a tough hobby out there. I am not attempting to target anyone in particular intentionally. I mentioned the cards I did due to the comments made on another thread I participate in.
I'm just giving my opinion. That is all. Nothing more.
I got as much passion for the hobby as anyone here. I've taken it on the chin over the years when I put too much faith in card grading and the experts. I have been fortunate enough to
not overextend myself and find recourse. Recourse is always there.
There are plenty of reasons to be soured on this hobby to due past, present, and without a doubt future actions by greedy and unscrupulous people in the hobby. I have been a board member
here since the inception. I have seen and heard it all. I'm still here. If I didn't look for answers to my questions and participate here I probably would have spent more in this hobby. I would
probably have (and still might) all kinds of bad stuff. The issues I have seen has caused me to spend much less than I could have and collect less. So, sure, it sucks. But this hobby is not
for the faint of heart. I appreciate all those that have taught me the hard lessons of this hobby.
"If my answers frighten anyone then I guess they should cease asking scary questions." Jules....
aconte
<< <i>It's a tough hobby out there. I am not attempting to target anyone in particular intentionally. I mentioned the cards I did due to the comments made on another thread I participate in.
I'm just giving my opinion. That is all. Nothing more.
I got as much passion for the hobby as anyone here. I've taken it on the chin over the years when I put too much faith in card grading and the experts. I have been fortunate enough to
not overextend myself and find recourse. Recourse is always there.
There are plenty of reasons to be soured on this hobby to due past, present, and without a doubt future actions by greedy and unscrupulous people in the hobby. I have been a board member
here since the inception. I have seen and heard it all. I'm still here. If I didn't look for answers to my questions and participate here I probably would have spent more in this hobby. I would
probably have (and still might) all kinds of bad stuff. The issues I have seen has caused me to spend much less than I could have and collect less. So, sure, it sucks. But this hobby is not
for the faint of heart. I appreciate all those that have taught me the hard lessons of this hobby.
"If my answers frighten anyone then I guess they should cease asking scary questions." Jules....
aconte >>
Well said Tony.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>telephoto1, the fact that Topps cut it, 30+ years ago, and the card survived the test of time in whatever packaging Topps chose, is what gives the card it's special value.
These elements are all important, and are what make a card a card. Take any part away and it becomes something less, and something different. >>
Seriously? >>
Yes
For all who've stated "cards which survived +30 years" and the "test of time" are more valuable than sheet-cut cards circa 2013 ...
Cards from factory :: any raw, non-slabbed card, in the year 2040
Cards from sheets :: slabbed version of the same card, from your PSA collection, in 2040
Basically you have a small hypocrisy. If you truly value cards in pristine condition because they've been carefully handled and preserved over decades, and you collect them because they are valuable in such condition, then why do you slab them? Wouldn't it make more sense to leave them raw in an album, where they will be safe (and raw) many years from now and thus even more valuable?
If pristine condition is more important than the player, or rarity, etc. ... then why are sheet-cut cards so horrible?
OK bring it on
edit: I do not believe sheet-cut cards should be slabbed. However, I do believe in defining the very FINE LINE between preservation (slabs, acid-free album pages, etc) and whatever sheet-cut cards are (they aren't fake, they're something else but I'm drawing a blank)
Amat Colligendo Focum
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