Do coins continue to tone in slabbed holders?

ahopewell55

My question is do gold, silver, or copper coins tone in the PCGS or NGC holders that they are currently in. I would think not because they are not in contact with the atmosphere in any way, as well as the holders are composed of inert materials. Has anyone noticed a change in the appearance of a coin after some time in a holder? Will a nicely toned coin continue to tone? Will a dipped coin get darker? Thanks for the info.

magikbilly

"I would think not because they are not in contact with the atmosphere in any way..."

Not so. Coins can and do change in holders, albeit usually much slower than raw. Be it tone or the development of the dreaded milk spots or whatever plaques ASE's, it does happen and part of it is because they are not sealed. It is also true many many coins remain unchanged. Stability in a holder is one reason the OGH is sometimes sought - esp for copper.
The slabs are not hermetically sealed - just sonically, and I think the plastic is gas permeable as well. If you look at some older small white ANA slabs you will notice a particular type of tone those holders caused - lovely blues/purples on the rims creeping in (I think it was the insert or the ink I don't recall). I am sure our hosts do a great job - but whatever holder, or even Intercept Shield etc - it is where you keep these slabs that is paramount. Low moisture, stable...no rubber bands or papers, no felt...no ammo... etc. A sacrificial anode is a good idea - place a freshly roughed up bit of copper where you keep your slabs along with the desiccant you probably should have (and keep regenerating)- this copper will tone first.

Best wishes,
Eric

One bit of evidence is the change in appearance of altered coins, puttied gold etc. Some of this is the nature of the materials, but I'd bet some of this is atmospheric. It has been demonstrated easily that one can tone coins deliberately in some TPG holders. Another evidence is perhaps the policies of some TPG's regarding copper color designations.

edit spelling.

PerryHall

Slabs are not air-tight. When the barometric pressure goes up, air enters the lab. When the barometric pressure goes down, air leaves the slab. Over a period of time there are many changes of the air within the slab. Where possible it's a good idea to store your slabs where the air quality is good, the humidity is low, and the air temperature is fairly constant. It is a good idea to store slabbed coins with highly reactive metals such as proof copper in a zip lock bag with a silica gel capsule.

joeykoins

Knowing that the slabs aren't totally air-tight,I think is a good thing. Let the coin age " naturally "! Whether,in a slab or not the coin should age like it always has,but without anyone touching or handling it.

Sonorandesertrat

I have seen coins that were artificially toned by gassing them, while they were still in TPG slabs.

joeykoins

<< <i>I have seen coins that were artificially toned by gassing them, while they were still in TPG slabs. >>

Boy o'boy, what some people will do to make a buck?

barrytrot

PCGS/NGC holders are pretty decent at mitigating issues.

However, the older PCI "100% white" holders were not at all! I see wildly-toned Silver Eagles with "100% white" on the slab all the time on eBay and other venues.

I never buy those though as to me something funny may have occurred and I don't want to mess with it.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

barrytrot

We've had this discussion at least once every 6 months since I arrived here

And I agree with Realone -> 100% of my PCGS/NGC coins look like they originally did. Less years though -> 10 years max. But I do live in a high humidity area, so that should add years, but it hasn't seemed to do so. Even my original copper from 2002 looks just as Red.

BillJones

Slabs are not airtight. Therefore the atmosphere can still get to the coins which will cause them to tone, especially if the slabs are not stored properly. The coins will tone even faster if they were dipped and then not properly rinsed after the procedure. This change can be pretty dramatic, and can occur within a year or less. This is one of the pitfalls of buying bright, white silver coins that have been recently certified. They can turn really ugly on you very quickly, and there is little you can do to predict that it will happen. That's why I buy dipped coins only in old holders.

As another poster stated it is possible to tone coins artificially in the slab buy exposing the slab to gases. You have got to be a pretty skilled coin doctor to do this well, but that does not mean that it hasn't been tried.

RYK

The answer is "yes". The time-lapsed photography argument of RO is absurd. I have not seen time-lapsed photography that proves that a coin has not changed in holders, either. On the surface of coins, especially silver ones, there is change constantly occurring. How do you think it got toned in the first place? It was not minted on a multi-color planchet.

Placing a coin in a slab will not retard the reactions occurring on coin surfaces, neither will it facilitate them.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Spooly

yes

Broadstruck

<< <i>The answer is "yes". >>

Elcontador

I bought an expensive Draped Bust Half Cent in MS 65 BN. Eight or nine years later, I noticed a small, active PVC spot on the 8 of the date. Trust me, that spot was NOT on there when I bought the coin (the seller would not have stocked the coin in the first place, nor would he have offered it to me if he saw said PVC on the coin).

The coin remained in its original holder, and spent the entire time I owned it in my safe deposit box, in an Intercept Shield, with dessicant in the box.

johnny9434

<< <i>I have seen coins that were artificially toned by gassing them, while they were still in TPG slabs. >>

i heard some of the old timers keep them in their pocket to get this effect. all hearsay is what it is

Cameonut

Yes, although I didn't have the foresight to photograph some Lincolns in PCGS holders back in 1989, I am pretty certain they are not as "red" as they used to be after 23 years. And these are both doubled die coins from the early '80's.

coinnut

I have personally owned a few silver coins that toned while in the slab. Some with pretty peripheral toning some with dark ugly toning.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

rainbowroosie

Old fattie NGC holders definately allowed coins to tone. Seen multiple examples, most ugly but a few pretty. The PCI 100% white eagles can be AWESOME!!! Amazing toning which appears 100% real to me and many other toned guys.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

GrumpyEd

They tone but at different rates.

An old classic with old toning might change so slowly that you will not see it changing in your lifetime.
A more reactive fresh coin might change very fast.
And everything in between those extremes will be different.

stealer

I believe the permeability of the old white ANACS slab is what prompted the owners to switch designs.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Aethelred

ttt

CCGGG

Unfortunately the answer is probably yes, however "slabbing" probably slows down the process and if stored properly it seems to stop it. I've had hundreds of slabbed coins for decades and none have any appreciable toning. Of course I bought them that way before any environmental damage occurred.

Jimnight

I would say yes...they will tone in the holder over time.

ricko

If there is contaminant on the surface of the coin, that has not yet reacted to form tarnish, then it could continue, even in the slab. Although not airtite, coins without contamination, will likely be stable over many years. Cheers, RickO

Zoins

The latest PCGS slabs are supposed to be more air tight from my understanding.

TwoKopeiki

@ricko said:
If there is contaminant on the surface of the coin, that has not yet reacted to form tarnish, then it could continue, even in the slab. Although not airtite, coins without contamination, will likely be stable over many years. Cheers, RickO

Ricko is correct. I'm hoping that with PCGS using the sniffer to detect contaminants, the number of coins to "turn" in PCGS plastic has been drastically reduced. I've had an example of a colorful 8 Reales in NGC plastic go almost black over the course of 2 years.

keets

If there is contaminant on the surface of the coin, that has not yet reacted to form tarnish, then it could continue, even in the slab. Although not airtite, coins without contamination, will likely be stable over many years. Cheers, RickO

Bingo!!!

this is actually not a "yes or no" question. as pointed out by our astute white-ologist, if contaminants are still present on a coin when encapsulated it will still tone, albeit at a much slower rate due to the enclosed lack of atmosphere/moisture. at the same time, a toned or brilliant coin absent any contaminant should remain stable or tone at a very, very slow rate since the capsules aren't airtight.

similarly, I have had/still have coins in other holders or even flips which haven't changed for decades. a good example of this is coins in very early holders which have been stable since the late 80's-early 90's.

CollectorBonEZ

This isn't exactly toned, but it clearly happened after being graded and slabbed.

georgiacop50

Yes absolutely. Not often, but sometimes.

BryceM

Coins can tone even in 100% airtight capsules. Not every contaminant on a coin got there through the atmosphere.

grip

Yes and no.I think its a crap shot.

Cougar1978

I try to Move them quickly as they will tone (further tarnish) over time. However this can take awhile.

I found an ICG 1950-D MS64 FBL 50c that I had lost, forgot about under a cabinet for 10-15yr. It had a very light barely discernable haze. I cracked it and dipped it and submitted it to our hosts - it came back PCGS MS64 FBL (same grade). It later sold fairly quickly bringing market retail.

So when somebody says coins a long term hold yeah right lol. The spotted 70 panda above I have no idea if one could dip that off...

Collect4fun

This is a $5 eagle, I was surprised to see this toning on a 2015 coin. The toning is more apparent in hand

Dave99B

Yes. Then someone cracks them out and dips them. Rinse, repeat.

Dave

blitzdude

Yes, especially if stored in a ziplock with a hardboiled egg, or perhaps even a squirt of taco bell sauce.

crazyhounddog

In a word, yes. As @perryhall said. Until slabs are airtight, gas, will be the culprit. I remember seeing some clown gassing Peace dollars in pcgs slabs. The results were ugly as all hell. Yes, airtight plastic is in order and will be a reality one day, I hope.

Boosibri

RIP Al Hopewell (the OP) Was a great guy

Walkerfan

Slabs will greatly decelerate the toning process but, if stored improperly, it can still happen, as they are not 100% airtight.

Namvet69

Slabs are not hermetically sealed and the fit and finish varies. A coin is protected and trapped inside. I have seen a variety of tarnish and toning on slabbed silver coins of vendors at flea markets that are exposed to extreme weather and sunlight. Peace Roy

Desert Moon

@Realone said:
<< Old fattie NGC holders definately allowed coins to tone. Seen multiple examples, most ugly but a few pretty. The PCI 100% white eagles can be AWESOME!!! Amazing toning which appears 100% real to me and many other toned guys. >>

I own many NGC old no line fatties that were holdered over 20+ years ago, a great and trusted dealer acquired them then, sold them to his client, and reacquired them recently, none had changed. Some are even pedigreed, the old auctionsw photos match.

I would guess that is an environmental factor involved. These old slabs are clearly not sealed, you see many fattie held coins with toning that looks specific to the holder - I have a few. So what surrounds ye olde fattie over the decades probably matters here.

Best, SH

keets

These old slabs are clearly not sealed, you see many fattie held coins with toning that looks specific to the holder.

this is a correct statement except that the proper term is "no-line fatty" which refers to the plastic that separates the coin capsule from the insert capsule. it seems reasonably sure that such coins are toning because of the insert chemicals and ink, but not all tone.

lcoopie

Yes

Dreamcrusher

The first image was taken in 2014. The second image just recently. This subject often comes up in the ANA grading class.

OldIndianNutKase

If a coin is encased in a slab there will be extremely little air in the slab exchanged with the atmosphere. However, contaminants in the ambient air will leach into the slab. Even if a slab is contained with pure nitrogen gas, contaminants enter a non-hermetic enclosure through a process called diffusion, wherein transmission will occur on a molecular level. The porosity of the plastic used in slabs in very small but over time equalization with the environment will occur.

OINK