Someone, please help me sort through the options for buying a UHR

RYK

I sold my UHR soon after the release for the quick flip and find myself wanting one for my modern bullion collection. I have looked at ebay, APMEX and Great Collections for one, but there are so many choices, that I am literally too bewildered with all of the options to pull the trigger.

Here are just a few of the decisions that need be made:
Raw or slabbed
PCGS or NGC
PL or not
First Strike (Early Release) or not
69 or 70
Gold foil, Mercanti, or Moy

Since I would like a PCGS slabbed coin, it answers some of the questions but creates others like:
Which is worth more, a gold foil 70 or a Moy-signed 69 PL? A Mercanti 70 or a First Strike 69?

I think you get the idea. If you were buying a PCGS-slabbed UHR, which would you choose and why?

Bochiman

PCGS 70 PL FS
I would NOT get "Moy signed" as I have no respect for him.
Most likely, I would get the "Gold foil" as I don't like the signature type of labels. Only one I would an exception for would be a Goodacre Sac.

Heck, depending on the look and price difference, I may well be satisfied with PCGS 69PL FS

(I also sold mine, and my mom's, right after we got them graded.....they have since really gone up, but, oh well.)

LindeDad

Well all I can say is I'm glad I got mine graded right away when they came out and held on for the ride.

DUIGUY

Kept mine in its original package.

JazzmanJAB

Personally, if I wanted just the minimum UHR, it would be a simple MS69. I wouldn't buy raw, unless you see it first, cause, the best were probably graded.
For the best, I think the 70 PL First Strike, would give you the best return on your money and you would have the finest example. I don't know about the signature lables, whether they would or do justify a premium.

They are great looking coins, hands down.

SmEagle1795

PCGS 69PL - it makes enough of a difference to be PL, but I can't for the life of me see the difference between a 69/70. I don't care about First Strike/Early Release/Signed/etc. (Personally, I think the signatures look tacky)

They are very impressive coins, but I ended up selling all of mine a few months back and bought a 1907 HR. I never really appreciated them until I saw the modern UHR and then looked at a plain Saint to see just how "shallow" they are.

ricko

A beautiful coin indeed. If you are purchasing for your own enjoyment, I would recommend a 69... If for investment, well, I just do not think these will continue to rise in value significantly, so a PL 70 would likely be the best gamble. Cheers, RickO

7Jaguars

70 a bit arteficial compared to hand picked 69 - PL best choice. I mean virtually insignificant diff for the money. Sell not buy for the difference in premium

ianrussell

When looking for any grade, please note there are better examples than others in the same grade. For PL, there is strong PL and normal PL. I always recommend strong PL.

Even for non-PL, there are borderline PL examples that I would prefer over a normal coin.

I agree with another poster here about buying raw - best to buy 69 over raw in my opinion.

- Ian

morgansforever

If you're gonna buy raw, don't buy it sight unseen or you might end up with this.
Excuse the old pic and the blur but you get the point. Purchased the first day straight from the Mint, the reverse is worse.
Area dealers didn't want it, to difficult to resell is what I was told. One dealer told me it's not die polish lines, this is from an
abrasive pad of sorts. It's worse inhand and more pronounced. A truly butt ugly UHR.

EDIT: I've considered making it a pocket piece, it's that ugly.

BryceM

Don't buy raw. I sent one in from a mint-sealed box and got a .92 cleaned grade. On review they gave it MS65. Yikes!!

I just sold mine in MS70 FS. I'll probably get one again someday in 69. I can't see the difference. This will unfortunately likely be the only high-relief double-eagle I'll ever own. If you want it for investment purposes, you might be best off with a 70 FS PL. In any case, I don't think the label color matters one bit!

If you just want a tremendous example of a gorgeous coin, pick out a nice 69 in a non-FS, plain-Jane holder and save several hundred bucks for no actual or perceptible difference in quality. PL is nice, but not all PLs are created equal and it wouldn't be worth it to me to pay the difference. Check em close with a good loupe before buying. I've seen several with die polish lines that you can live without.

I'm guessing that in 10 or 20 years the somewhat artificial FS designation won't mean much. Most likely people will care more about the condition of the coin than the wrapper. It's not like they're ever going to become rare in very high grades.

morgansforever

<<Don't buy raw. I sent one in from a mint-sealed box and got a .92 cleaned grade. On review they gave it MS65. Yikes!!>>

I second that, mine was cleaned with a scotch pad of sorts at the Mint.
Wish I had returned it that day, stupid of me to hold on to it.
Now I have a UHR that no one wants, not even for the $1189 issue price.

2ltdjorn

<< <i><<Don't buy raw. I sent one in from a mint-sealed box and got a .92 cleaned grade. On review they gave it MS65. Yikes!!>>

I second that, mine was cleaned with a scotch pad of sorts at the Mint.
Wish I had returned it that day, stupid of me to hold on to it.
Now I have a UHR that no one wants, not even for the $1189 issue price. >>



I'll take it for the issue price, where do I send the check?

morgansforever

<<I'll take it for the issue price, where do I send the check?>>

It won't grade, it's been cleaned with an abrasive pad by the Mint why would you want it?

EDIT: Your money would be better spent on a graded 69 example.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I sold my UHR soon after the release for the quick flip and find myself wanting one for my modern bullion collection. I have looked at ebay, APMEX and Great Collections for one, but there are so many choices, that I am literally too bewildered with all of the options to pull the trigger.

Here are just a few of the decisions that need be made:
Raw or slabbed
PCGS or NGC
PL or not
First Strike (Early Release) or not
69 or 70
Gold foil, Mercanti, or Moy

Since I would like a PCGS slabbed coin, it answers some of the questions but creates others like:
Which is worth more, a gold foil 70 or a Moy-signed 69 PL? A Mercanti 70 or a First Strike 69?

I think you get the idea. If you were buying a PCGS-slabbed UHR, which would you choose and why? >>



No CAC?

Coinosaurus

Buy one you like, forget about the holders and designations. If you can only "like" one in a PCGS holder then do what you have to do. Just remember it will always be gold, and it will never be a rare coin.

drfish

PCGS prices on eBay. 3,000 or less for ms70 and around $5,500 for PL . Based on that I would go with a ms70 and $2,500

crypto79

Walk a show and buy the one in mint packaging that looks the nicest at the lowest price

messydesk

I'd buy a carefully chosen 69 with a no-frills label. You'd be paying the least premium over what just the coin is worth. Premiums for the label of the day and the 70 grade are something I wouldn't mind selling, but I'd never buy them. I'd have to think someday people will once again be interested in the coins and that holders and labels will have been a passing fad.

Cameonut

I wouldn't worry about the plastic add-ons and the other frills as I buy the coin and not the hype.

So if I wanted a slabbed example I'd buy a PCGS 69 PL for the eye appeal at a reasonable price. Skip the first strike, foil, Moy, Mercanti, and CAC.
For this coin, I wouldn't go with a raw example for simplicity of storage.

But that's what I would do - your tastes and pocketbook may be quite different.

OPA

PCGS MS70 FIRST STRIKE would be my choice, which are selling for around $3400 on eBay. At one time they were selling for $5k, but have finally bottomed out. It took PCGS a while to join the bandwagon with their PL designation, as such there are still a ton of early graded F.S. coins out there that may indeed be PL., but did not get the PL designation because it wasn't available at the time. Good luck.

BillJones

I prefer modern coins in the original mint package. With the UHR there is also the book that comes with it which is actually informative about how modern dies are made. To me slabbed modern coins don't have very much "character."

coindeuce

I'd buy several of the fractional 2008 Gold Buffalo for true rarity, before I would buy one of these fugly over-hyped Mint conflagrations.

TomB

I realize you likely prefer such a coin already in a PCGS holder, but I like my modern issues to be in their original packaging. Either way, I would inspect the piece first before purchase because some of these were horrendously hairlined at the Mint prior to shipping. These have severe die polish lines that really take away from the look of the coin. I sold all of the pieces that I had with those lines and only kept the few that I received that seemed pristine; they are all raw.

MsMorrisine

PCGS MS70 PL with First Strike are the money coins.

Forget the color or type of label otherwise.


Ensure that you get the OGP with book, too. Hopefully the book is still cello wrapped.


You know coins, perhaps you can get a You Suck and cherry an unrecognized PL in an MS70 FS holder and get it designated.


Those who had them returned as cleaned... if they were sent in early in the grading process, they could go back to review as these had heavy die polish on some and looked cleaned. My first one looked abraded.


I would also take them ungraded and "cleaned" for 1189 I'll even pay for shipping. I'll let you figure out why.

wondercoin

"Someone, please help me sort through the options for buying a UHR"

First question... how much money do you want to spend on the coin?

Wondercoin

derryb

Based on mintage, they are way overpriced. UHR bubble?

Obiwancanoli

RYK, after I'd picked up my two - one graded MS70 FS, the other, raw - I'd considered sending in the graded coin for possible PR designation, decided it did not have that potential, and chose to keep the second one raw. They'll remain that way until I choose to pass them on to someone else down the road. I'm pleased I was able to obtain both, wish I'd sprung for 1-2 more, for I surely would have had those graded too.

Like TomB, I do like them raw, and wanted to keep one in that condition permanently. Glad I did.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>Based on mintage, they are way overpriced. UHR bubble? >>




it's true demand here.

the demand has held up.

the big factor in the turnaround of the MS70FS prices is the advent of the PCGS PL designation making the plain ones less desirable.


these things are being shipped globally.


I vote no bubble.

jmski52

They didn't recognize a Prooflike finish at first, but Prooflike seems to have become the standard for excellence in the UHRs. Unfortunately, that designation is (much) higher priced. In my opinion, the whole price structure is a bit higher than it ought to be for this issue.

I would do as OPA suggests, but I'd want to see the coin in person before buying it, so I probably wouldn't buy it on ebay:

PCGS MS70 FIRST STRIKE would be my choice, which are selling for around $3400 on eBay. At one time they were selling for $5k, but have finally bottomed out. It took PCGS a while to join the bandwagon with their PL designation, as such there are still a ton of early graded F.S. coins out there that may indeed be PL., but did not get the PL designation because it wasn't available at the time. Good luck.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>
Like TomB, I do like them raw, and wanted to keep one in that condition permanently. Glad I did. >>




YMMV.


I prefer mine entombed in this case. The little fat capsule just seems weird and shrinks the size of the thing.


Of course, encapsulated raw it can fit in its naturally made holder.

RYK

First question... how much money do you want to spend on the coin?

Under $3000 and get the highest quality and most attractive coin for the money.

Based on mintage, they are way overpriced. UHR bubble?

So are 09SVDBs, 37-D 3 legs, and countless other coins that have no price support from their bullion value. Nonetheless, I just want one for my collection.

MsMorrisine

under $3k....


going to have to cherry pick your own PL from the PL-unknowing.

raw with everything ones are going for under $3k on eBay.


PCGS MS69 FS are also under $3k, and price under raw.


As they say, with raw at least you have a shot at a 70 sometime.


a PCGS MS70 FS runs a bit over $3k, but if you can cherry a PL... you will earn a You Suck from the modern people, at least.




one inescapable fact.... the PL designated ones will always be >>> than those not.

wondercoin

I think you now answered your own question ...

A lovely quality MS70 would be the quest.

As usual, just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

erickso1

I flipped my 70 as soon as I got it back from grading. I was able to reacquire a raw one with all the packaging from a relative of a coworker a year ago. At the level I got back in at, raw is fine with me. Personally the fact labels don't do a whole lot for me. I'd be happy with a 69 or 69 pl.

MsMorrisine

PS: a "look for" to avoid on the 69s and raw .... struck in black specks, especially around but not limited to the rims.

MsMorrisine

I want some people to correct me on this.


there are several "Mercanti" labels on eBay. Moy, too.

PCGS started giving out the Mercanti and Moy labels AFTER the PL decision was made, correct?

OPA

<< <i>I want some people to correct me on this.


there are several "Mercanti" labels on eBay. Moy, too.

PCGS started giving out the Mercanti and Moy labels AFTER the PL decision was made, correct? >>



Correct

OPA

<< <i>First question... how much money do you want to spend on the coin?

Under $3000 and get the highest quality and most attractive coin for the money.

Based on mintage, they are way overpriced. UHR bubble?

So are 09SVDBs, 37-D 3 legs, and countless other coins that have no price support from their bullion value. Nonetheless, I just want one for my collection. >>



For under 3K ... good luck ... You may want to increase your minimum by at least $500 to $3500 & then touch base with Wondercoin. I'm sure he can get you a decent FS coin.

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>First question... how much money do you want to spend on the coin?

Under $3000 and get the highest quality and most attractive coin for the money.

Based on mintage, they are way overpriced. UHR bubble?

So are 09SVDBs, 37-D 3 legs, and countless other coins that have no price support from their bullion value. Nonetheless, I just want one for my collection. >>



For under 3K ... good luck ... You may want to increase your minimum by at least $500 to $3500 & then touch base with Wondercoin. I'm sure he can get you a decent FS coin. >>



I would be shocked if ryk was the kind of guy who cared about a FS lable

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>First question... how much money do you want to spend on the coin?

Under $3000 and get the highest quality and most attractive coin for the money.

Based on mintage, they are way overpriced. UHR bubble?

So are 09SVDBs, 37-D 3 legs, and countless other coins that have no price support from their bullion value. Nonetheless, I just want one for my collection. >>



For under 3K ... good luck ... You may want to increase your minimum by at least $500 to $3500 & then touch base with Wondercoin. I'm sure he can get you a decent FS coin. >>



I would be shocked if ryk was the kind of guy who cared about a FS lable >>




let's ask....

do you care about teh FS label? There is a premium now. The naysayers will say it won't be there later.

of course, pulling a PL is >>> than a simple FS.

RYK

I would be shocked if ryk was the kind of guy who cared about a FS lable

I have little or no interest in the FS label. If it were an extra $15 or even $50, I might consider it. It appears that these add hundreds or even thousands of dollars to the overall price of the package, and if this is the case, I am certainly not interested (not that there's anything wrong with it ). I just want a nice looking coin.

crypto79

<< <i>I would be shocked if ryk was the kind of guy who cared about a FS lable

I have little or no interest in the FS label. If it were an extra $15 or even $50, I might consider it. It appears that these add hundreds or even thousands of dollars to the overall price of the package, and if this is the case, I am certainly not interested (not that there's anything wrong with it ). I just want a nice looking coin. >>



Let me clarify as to avoid any potential of coming off as condescending towards to modern guys; I have no problem with the FS label and admit that it adds cost/resale to most issues. That said it appears to me to be a manifestation inside a specialty niche that is used to differentiate other wise common issues to establish a pecking order among collectors much in the same manner that mid to late 20th cen issues use meaning less strike designators like FS, FB, FBL ect. For people who collect classic issues and add the occasional type piece be it a modern mint product or circulation issue, they tend to focus on eye appeal and value and those two thing don't necessarily correlate to a branded registry focused labels. That is all

oreville

Looks like wondercoin solved RYK's riddle in no time.

MsMorrisine

no offense taken.

criteria - nice coin - under $3k

start by trying to cherry a raw one.


if that fails, go for a 70

OPA

To me, coins are an investment, and unless you plan to be buried with them, I'd always go for the type that would give me the greatest return on my investment potential. Like it or not, for the most part, a F.S. designation on so called "modern junk" fall into that category.

AMRC

Hey why not one of each and call it a type set? :-)

TomB

You know, the new two-coin PCGS holder might be great for either an original high relief and the modern high relief; or at least a non-PL modern high relief and a PL modern high relief. RYK, I think we have a new four-coin side collection goal for you!

MsMorrisine

blue label , flag, gold w/wo, mercanti w/wo, moy w/wo, more(?) then variations with PL and without..... go for the complete label set.



dcarr may even overstrike a cleaned one for you

ShinyThingsInPM

I think first you need to decide if you would like PL vs non-PL because price wise MS70 non-PL would cost approx as MS69PL and will both fall under $3K and MS70PL will likely be well over $3K

Whether it's worth paying for First Strike is debatable but PL vs non-PL is visible by naked eye

RYK

It all comes down to...

Is a UHR in PCGS F-12 worth $135?



Actually, I think shiny things nailed it. A non-PL 70 or a PL 69. There's a coin show in town this week, and maybe I'll check a few out. Also, a kind dealer who was sympathetic to my plight has offered to send me a few on approval. Maybe I'll ask for an HR Saint, too, and do the TomB four coin set.