Does the date look fake to you guys? 1869 Indian Cent

Tdec1000

This one looks like a chinese fake to me. What do you guys think.

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Tdec1000

The 1872 is a fake as well!!

ebaybuyer

typical chinese fake, easily identifiable by the shallow relief, the date that may as well have been drawn in with a crayon, and the abnormal denticles, looks like it was artificially circulated in a garbage disposer

AUandAG

Yes, he has several fakes mixed in with the real ones. Whether or not they are recent fakes
or not, I don't know.

bob

LanceNewmanOCC

.
good job tdec
.

Tdec1000

I saw one of these one time in a dealers shop marked 65 rd!! I had to tell him but I think he already knew which was even more disgusting.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>I saw one of these one time in a dealers shop marked 65 rd!! I had to tell him but I think he already knew which was even more disgusting. >>



a tough scenario indeed, because if you say something it will most likely put a funk in the relationship and if you don't, it is almost like you are contributing

a decision i have faced many times and i risked saying something and it for sure put a funk in the air. i do much better about how i word what i say to inform them.

i will say a couple times my saying something did result in my ability to view the owner's counterfeit box of coins at different coin shops.

bitter sweet as i was ecstatic to view the many they've had come in but there were soooo many it was tough to see and i probably only saw what they had from a small time period
.
edited for speeling as usual

ricko

Good catch..... would fool many collectors.... Cheers, RickO

MsMorrisine

I wonder how many are dings and how many are really casting pimples.

poor fake. the poorest I've seen on here in a long time.

and is that rust? rust, rust... not copper oxidation but iron oxidation ?

denga

<< <i>This one looks like a chinese fake to me. What do you guys think.

Text >>



Really bad fakes. Good catch.

Buzzybest

I don't understand how these sellers consistently seem to get 100% feedback so often.

jesbroken

No doubt, Tom, the date speaks for itself. I often wonder why the Chinese do so well with the copy, yet screw up something as telling as the date. Thank
goodness, I guess.
Jim

ParkieCollector

private listings too. interesting.

crazyzap

Hi there all, Buzzybest, I can tell you how a seller like this keeps getting 100% Positive feedback And is a Top Rated Seller... I don't screw my buyers with junk, fakes or in any other way. Thank you to the person that tipped me off to this forum. I am very new with coins.. Only 7 months. This coin will be removed from my listing along with any other fakes.
Take care fellows~

crazyzap

If any of you can tell me how you are 100% positive that this coin is a fake. I would appreciate the knowledge!

airplanenut

<< <i>If any of you can tell me how you are 100% positive that this coin is a fake. I would appreciate the knowledge! >>

For starters, the date is in a slightly different font and too large. Here's a real one:

ebaybuyer

crazy, all the chinese fakes look very similar, if you buy and sell coins, you may want to learn how to spot the fakes. doing so may prevent you from buying them and unknowingly pass them on to other buyers. may also prevent you from being arrested for selling counterfeit coins as genuine coins. much easier to educate yourself than to convince the secret service that you didnt know any better.

JamesMurray

"all the chinese fakes look very similar"

You seem stuck on that idea , it couldn't be further from the truth.Perhaps you'd like to fill us in on how some got into top flight slabs ? You have intimated several times how easy it is to spot these.

rec78

The 1908-S looks fake also--The date is the give away--You could weigh them crazyzap and I bet the weight is off also. These could easily fool newbies. It may be easy for the trained eye and collectors of the series with many years of experience to spot these right away but newcomers may not recognize them as fakes right away.

Bob

crazyzap

Not to sure about the plastic & beans~ 3.11 grams is the common weight of a mint condition 1869 Indian Head. This one is 3 grams. There were 2 different dies that year. And produced a double die date that year. There have been over 360 veiws on that coin so far. I do see what you folks are saying about the year looking a bit different.

jesbroken

First off, welcome to the forum cg. Thanks for having the courage to come forward. Yes the date is so far off,
it is a telltale sign. Their is a wealth of knowledge available here and you are welcome to take advantage of it.
Good luck with your legitmate auctions and thank you for removing the ones that are not.
Jim

denga

<< <i>The 1908-S looks fake also--The date is the give away--You could weigh them crazyzap and I bet the weight is off also. These could easily fool newbies. It may be easy for the trained eye and collectors of the series with many years of experience to spot these right away but newcomers may not recognize them as fakes right away.

Bob >>



The obverse is the pre–1886 version, impossible for 1908. I have to wonder if ANY of these offerings is genuine.

ParkieCollector

the one with the hole is probably good.

crazyzap

Hello Jim, thank you for the welcome. I have spent many hours reading, looking and learning about pennies. But only for 7-8 months so far. I take very good pictures of my coins. Which allows bidders to truly see what I am offering. My feedback is awesome. I do not take advantage of people, like so many other seller do.
Ron

denga

<< <i>Hello Jim, thank you for the welcome. I have spent many hours reading, looking and learning about pennies. But only for 7-8 months so far. I take very good pictures of my coins. Which allows bidders to truly see what I am offering. My feedback is awesome. I do not take advantage of people, like so many other seller do.
Ron >>



Then why is the 1872 Indian Head cent, a crude fake, still posted for sale?

Link

MsMorrisine

<< <i>the one with the hole is probably good. >>




and there are some heavily corroded ones, too.

crazyzap

denga, the 1872 is still there because I can not end it. I have contacted e-bay about the coin and will inform the winner bidder.

crazyzap

Yeah, kind of a shame some are corroded. It would be sweet if they were all MINT!

crazyzap

For all you over concerned people. This is the winner of the so called "crude fake", 1872 Indian head cent. 2010orchidman
Just in case you actually think I am intentional selling counterfeit coins. Fell free to contact the winner. I don't want to Secret Service knocking on my door. LOL!!!!

ebaybuyer

murray, ive collected coins long enough to know what looks like what ... allow me to "dumb it down" for you. to me all the chinese counterfeits "look" the same, they all share very similar traits, ie wrong date placement and or numeral style/size, incorrect mintmark size/placement, incorrect die pairings, atypical weakness of design/denticles, etc. so if im "stuck" on that its because i BELIEVE it. what you see and what i see are two different things, to me they all look the same, that is fact, whether you agree or disagree, is your opinion which is of little interest to me. if you want to know how counterfeit coins end up in "top flight" slabs, my guess is that someone put them in the slab. perhaps your question should be why a top flight grading service would be slabbing counterfeit coins.... the answer to that could only be answered by the service that slabbed the coin.

JamesMurray

<< <i>murray, ive collected coins long enough to know what looks like what ... to me they all look similar, so if im "stuck" on that its because i BELIEVE it. what you see and what i see are two different things, to me they all look the same, that is fact, whether you agree or disagree, is your opinion which is of little interest to me. if you want to know how counterfeit coins end up in "top flight" slabs, why dont you ask the company that slabbed them. i am not involved in the grading/slabbing process so i can only speculate as to how a coin ends up in a slab..... as could anyone. >>



I suspect that you much like anyone else can pick out a fake on ebay , that's not remarkable and happens daily. You have no answers to how the counterfeits pass the highest tests so that would suggest you havnt seen those in hand which makes your statement of they are all similar look rather foolish , dont you think ? Probably not , but like the rest of us , you'll learn. Theres more to coins than ebay bubba.

ebaybuyer

your question of how the counterfeits end up in slabs seems rather foolish to me. someone had to put the coin in a slab, it didnt slab itself. why the coin is in the slab is a more valid question, one that i cannot answer as i do not work for any grading service. you would have to pose that question to the grading service that slabbed the counterfeit coin. and yes there is more to coins than ebay, there is research. this is a tool anyone can use to lessen thier own chances of unknowingly buying a counterfeit coin. i have learned, thats why they all look the same to me. are you willing to learn anything ?

ebaybuyer

"You have no answers to how the counterfeits pass the highest tests" ........ when was i asked this ? ?? bubba ? are we giving each other nicknames now ? can i offer one to you ?

Tdec1000

<< <i>For all you over concerned people. This is the winner of the so called "crude fake", 1872 Indian head cent. 2010orchidman
Just in case you actually think I am intentional selling counterfeit coins. Fell free to contact the winner. I don't want to Secret Service knocking on my door. LOL!!!! >>



It takes a big person to do what you are doing. My best advice to you is to look at as many Indians and Lincoln's as you can. Then when an odd one pops up you will know that it isn't quite right and needs further investigation.

Good Luck and hopefully you don't have too much in those two fake coins.

JamesMurray

<< <i>"You have no answers to how the counterfeits pass the highest tests" ........ when was i asked this ? ?? bubba ? are we giving each other nicknames now ? can i offer one to you ? >>



What would be the point , you'd only edit it like every other post.

ebaybuyer

the point would be backing up what you are running your mouth about.

BillJones

<< <i> to me all the chinese counterfeits "look" the same, they all share very similar traits, ie wrong date placement and or numeral style/size, incorrect mintmark size/placement, incorrect die pairings, atypical weakness of design/denticles, etc. so >>



I wish that all of the "Chinese junk" had this look, but sadly it doesn't. There are some of these pieces of garbage that have duplicated the real thing fairly well. The people who study these things have classified them as "Class 5" counterfeits. They are darn scary.

ebaybuyer

you wanted to know how a counterfeit would get into a "top flight" (your words) slab, i took the time to respond with a reasonable answer, someone put it in a slab. you chose to bash my response to this thread, inferring that i had alot to learn and i dont know what im talking about, well BUBBA if you dont know how a coin gets into a slab, obviously YOU have much to learn. my opinion is that the chinese counterfeits all look alike, they all share inconsistencies when compared to a genuine coin, whether you agree with that or not is your opinion which again, is of little interest to me. feel free to bash me all you like, but be prepared to back up your words.

MikeInFL

ebaybuyer, I disagree with you and would offer the post immediately above yours (from Mr. Jones) as most in-line with my view. Said simply, some are easy to spot and others aren't -- I suspect you have only seen the former and not the latter. More to the point, I believe you are fooling yourself if you think a casual glance at an eBay photo is all you need to distinguish the real coins from the counterfeits. Respectfully...Mike

ebaybuyer

never did i say that "a casual glance" is all that is needed to tell the real ones from the fakes. what i said was that the chinese fakes all have very similar charcteristics... to my eyes they all look the same, i did not say they all look identical and all have the same date or all are indian cents or anything else, to ME they all look similar. i dont know if i can make that any more clear than i have, perhaps i could have it translated into every known language so i wont be misunderstood, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, and i have stated mine, no one should rely on a photo (ebay or otherwise) as a definite means of authentication. i can tell a chinese fake from a real coin by certain characteristics, i did not say that EVERYONE can tell a fake from a good one, if i had, then i could see where there would be so much room for disagreement,

Zoins

I'm with Bill and Mike on this. While some counterfeits are easier to tell from photos on eBay, others aren't readily distinguishable. Other well-known experts have also expressed the same opinion on this and other forums. Astute collectors will follow the advice of experts and top grading services and adjust their buying appropriately.

As for those suggesting otherwise, I would have more confidence in their advice if they were a known counterfeit expert, known expert in their series, or a current/former top TPG authenticator.

crazyzap

I am taking 6 of the Indian Head Pennies that I had listed (1866, 1869, 1872, 1903, 1907 & 1908-S) to 3 different coin shops here in Salem, Oregon. All 3 shops have been in business for many years. I will get their professional opinions. And then I am sending them to PCGS. I will post the results as I get them! I have over 3000 Indian head pennies. It seems I need a crash coarse in recognizing the fakes. And not to mistake the errors as a fake. There are some pretty strong opinions here. But the bottom line to me is, DO THE RIGHT THING!!!

ebaybuyer

rather than trying to convince me that i am wrong because you dont agree with me, perhaps your time would be better spent studying some of the chinese counterfeits and gaining a bit of knowledge for yourself.

crazyzap

Zoins,
I am with you 100% plus!!!!! Very well put! And with the best opinion by far. I will ask you, where or who should I send these 6 Indian heads pennies (that so many say are fake) to? I am a member with PCGS. But there fees are a bit high for me, being I deal in mainly pennies. I am all about learning and being the best I possibly can with the coin business. I am a fast learner and will do it better at then most people have in a lifetime. My feedback on E-Bay says it all! If a person was to take time to "READ" my feedback. Well, they wouldn't have to ask why "this seller consistently seem to get 100% feedback". But I have around long enough to realize that a lot of people like to voice their opinion. Even if they don't truly know 100% what their talking about. True reality of life!
And EbayBuyer, What do you recommend?

Ron

crazyzap

Knowleadge is power...

ebaybuyer

glad you asked, it depends largely on what your goals are, if you are primarily buying indian cents i would contact an expert in the indian cent series, the name kevin flynn comes to mind, but i may be mistaken, as i dont collect indian cents. anyway, an expert in the series will know all the diagnostices to look for on a genuine coin. contrary to what many in here believe, the chinese counterfeits are not the only counterfeit coins to be aware of. there have been counterfeit and altered coins probably since coins have been being minted. a grading service is an option, and they are NOT all created equally. a grading service should be able to tell a counterfeit coin from a fake. as pointed out earlier in this thread, some grading companies have been duped by counterfeits, i would probably stay away from any grading service that has been fooled, the grading services enlist the knowledge of the experts that know the series, this same expertise is available to you in the form of research. if you are willing to take the time and learn the diagnostics for the genuine coins, the fakes are easy to spot. you said you learn fast, well, then i would at least attempt to learn all you can about the series you are most interested in, no one can be an expert in all series of coinage as each series requires a substantial intellectual investment. but there are books available on every series so if you have the time and or willingness to educate yourself, you can eliminate 75% of counterfeits by a picture alone, and then the other 25% by in hand diagnostics. (those figures are estimates but you get the idea) regardless of what youve read here, the chinese fakes are the easiest to spot for the most part, the really good fakes are not from china. regardless, you can educate yourself, or pay someone else for an opinion ...

lkeigwin

CZ, this forum is probably as good a place as you can find for expert opinions on your coins. Many members are tops in their specialty, some are former TPG graders, most are long time collectors and well respected dealers.

I am not sure many of the coins you are asking about are worth submitting. Present them with good photos and you will get good feedback.
Lance.

ebaybuyer

i agree with lance, if all you have is a handful of "questionables" posting them here may be a more financially viable option, there are people here that do know what they are talking about, i dont know much about indian cents other than there are a few dates that were counterfeited while they were actively circulating. and many more were counterfeited later to fool collectors.

ebaybuyer

add to that if you have 3000 it could take a while. most often the expensive dates are the only ones that were counterfeited, but common dates did see some action as well.

crazyzap

My step dad passed away last July, 2011. His dad (my step grandfather) started a coin collect in the mid 1940's, that my step dad inherited (step dad was in the US NAVY for 20 years and traveled the world) now I have inherited. Most of the coins are world coins. In 3 big binders, in 2X2 holders, in alphabetical order. VERY ORGANIZED! Each coin has notes to where it was found at (ie. bars, stores, coin shops) how much it cost. And what it was worth in the 1992. There are gold, silver, bronze and every other metal available. I have bee in construction most of my life. Self employed. Owned 2 custom cabinet shop. I have a great eye for detail. But want to find something that was not so hard on my body. At 49 years old, things are starting to hurt. And take much longer to heal. LOL. So I decided to start sell the coins on e-bay. They seem to be selling fairly well. But I have found that Wheat pennies & indian head pennies seem to have a extremely high mark value. Morgan's are the #1 collect coin, with wheat pennies coming in 2nd. So I decided to go for it with the Wheat's. I have been buying form all over the country for 7 months now. I have bought nearly 80,000 wheat's and some 4000 Indian heads. I have found 5 1909-S VDB"S so far. 3 1914-D's and many of the other semi-key dates. Its been a lot of work and many hours of time learning how to sell, getting the best possible pictures, reading, calling dealers, and talking to dozens of other e-bay sellers.
So, any advice on how to up my profit, lower my over head. Would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all.


Ron in Oregon~

ebaybuyer

the first thing i would do is study those 09SVDB's VERY carefully... 14-D's as well, there are MANY known counterfeits/altered dates of each, there are probably more 09SVDB cents today than the mint ever made. rule of thumb, when you are buying raw coins, you can be aware of what you are buying, or wish you had been. my comments on here seem to welcome a barrage of bashing from people who dont agree with me so that makes me wrong i guess, my efforts are aimed at convincing the average joe that there is no "magic" involved in authenticating a coin, anyone who is willing to study the genuine pieces, take the time to learn what they SHOULD look like, can avoid some expensive headaches, people will tell you that you cant learn this on your own, and that is simply not true, with the wealth of information available to those who will take the time to learn it, there is simply no reason one cannot teach ones eyes to spot the fakes. it is not magic, most key date coins have been so extensively studied that the information is as easy to find as craigslist.