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For those of you that have been collecting coins for at least five years...
MrEureka
Posts: 24,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is there anything that you truly do not understand about how this hobby/business works? If so, what is it?
And don't be embarrassed to respond. Yes, most of us have it all figured out by now, but not all of us.
And don't be embarrassed to respond. Yes, most of us have it all figured out by now, but not all of us.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
Initially, I had a very hard time just visually being able to identify solid mint luster as opposed to even a whizzed coin. Now I look back on those times and wonder how I could have ever
been so visually dense. Seeing luster behind toning still eludes me though.
To this day I still have a tough time spotting doubling unless it's really obvious.
What I really don't understand though, is how people can be willing to pay so much more $ for the whole "First Strike" business.....
I guess if I think about it though, it's just the American way and good marketing.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Harshly cleaned coins are easier. But the subtle ones still elude me.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
The flippers make the money, while the collectors lose(?) money??? This doesn't make ANY sense from the standpoint of those that collect these coins!
<< <i>I don't understand the fascination with varieties that take 100x magnification to see.And that's on a good seeing day.
...i believe i am in that camp too.
<< <i>I don't understand the fascination with varieties that take 100x magnification to see.And that's on a good seeing day.
I agree with that one. Also, I truly don't understand why ugly toned coins (which is to say 90% of them), are so revered. I've mentioned this in a couple of other threads, but toned coins that look like they just came from a sewer or were nuked at Los Alamos, invariably have many people gushing over them and calling them "monsters" etc. I just don't get it.
2. Dealers that don't do retail and only deal with other dealers. How do you get started in this
3. How dealers get enough coins cheap enough to resell.
4. Why people spend so much for coins to begin with?
5. How dealers can make a living going all over the country to coin shows.
6. Why people are so intranced by TPGs and put full faith in certain plastic and won't even look at other plastic. The TPG ARE good for the hobby,
but people still need to think!!
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand the fascination with varieties that take 100x magnification to see.And that's on a good seeing day.
...i believe i am in that camp too.
Part of it has to do with "completeness." Most every collector who sticks with the hobby has that desire to fill every hole in the album be it a set of Lincoln cents or a complete set of the known and available large cent die varieties. There for the coin that needs a strong glass to note the variety probably fills a “hole” in a collection, even if that collection is not laid out in album form.
But, yea, I agree. I’m not much from truly microscopic varieties.
CG
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>1. How wholesale dealers exist?
2. Dealers that don't do retail and only deal with other dealers. How do you get started in this
3. How dealers get enough coins cheap enough to resell.
4. Why people spend so much for coins to begin with?
5. How dealers can make a living going all over the country to coin shows.
6. Why people are so intranced by TPGs and put full faith in certain plastic and won't even look at other plastic. The TPG ARE good for the hobby,
but people still need to think!! >>
This.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
let's say I have coins I'm putting in Whitman folders, or perhaps a Canadian Silver Maple Leaf with spots . . .
I assume I can use water without any issue?
What would be the next best thing?
then the next?
At what point am i doing something that PCGS would then refuse to grade the coin because it is "cleaned"?
i know across the street, they have a cleaning devision in the company, and are obviously pros at doing that . . . why hasn't PCGS gotten into this?
Mark
1. Why toning is popular. Yes, I know it's a natural reaction, but it does not look good to me in the least. I would much rather have a non-rusty car than a car that's covered in rust. (Been there, done that anyway- parts would fall off while sitting still!) I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I don't get it.
2. Why US-only collectors complain so much. It seems that for everything that's done, there will be a group of people who feel the need to make like it's the end of the world/hobby. Uh, if you don't like it, just ignore it. It's not that hard, and it would likely be better for your health. It's not like that in the world and currency fields, so why is it in the US part?
3. Why there is such a bias against modern coins. So what if they are new, and there are a lot of them? Are you collecting because you love the hobby, or because you want something that not everyone else has? 90% of my collection- or likely more- is modern, and I'm proud of it. (I define modern as post-silver era). I have more coins from 2002 than any other year.
4. Why people put more emphasis on what they can sell their collection for, instead of what the collection is. The way I see it is, if you are only concerned about how much you can sell it for, you aren't a collector at all.
5. Why some people include errors in their base set. The way I view it, is that errors (Like for example the 3-legged buffalo) are not part of the base set, but a nice added bonus to it. If, and it's a big if, I ever complete my buffalo nickel set, it won't have a 3-legged in it, and I'll still view it as complete. Many others wouldn't. I honestly don't see that happening anytime in the next decade, if ever, so it's just an example, but I think it defines my point.
6. Why some people get so caught up over what holder it's in. As long as it's (reasonably) protected from the elements and you feel confidant it's genuine- not a fake/knockoff- who cares who put it in a holder?
7. What the allure of gold is. Yes, really. Sure it looks nice, but there's no way it should cost as much as it does. It's not really THAT rare. Maybe I just feel this way because I can't afford any, and have absolutely none. Maybe if I had some I'd feel differently. No real way to tell, I suppose. But I've never been one to just follow the popular idea blindly, and I feel that the high costs of gold and silver are just that- artificially inflated and not based in fact.
<< <i>I don't understand the US Mint Coin Crazes. There's an initial BIG mark-up, and then within a year (after demand settles) prices drop to at/below Mint cost.
The flippers make the money, while the collectors lose(?) money??? This doesn't make ANY sense from the standpoint of those that collect these coins! >>
As a disclaimer, if the AT is done poorly, I understand why people shun those coins. They don't look natural. I'm talking more about toned coins that were AT'ed by really, really good coin doctors. And I do realize my opinion is in a small minority here.
When did it become chic for alcohol to be consumed on the browse floor
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>1. How wholesale dealers exist? >>
They sell to dealers who cater to the retail trade. If you have dealt with some members of the collecting public, you can understand why some dealers do want to put up with them.
<< <i>2. Dealers that don't do retail and only deal with other dealers. How do you get started in this >>
You go to many shows, and establish your reputation for your expertise and fair dealing. These guys really have to know the market and waste other dealers' time by "taking shots" with prices that are too high to be viable.
<< <i>3. How dealers get enough coins cheap enough to resell. >>
They work the auctions, and they also spend many hours going through other dealers' inventory looking for viable buys. They also might have a list of clients, both collector and invester, who are ready to sell their holdings privately. Auctions MIGHT yield higher prices or they might not. You also have to wait for the auction to take place to get all of your money. Private treaty sales are often faster.
<< <i>4. Why people spend so much for coins to begin with? >>
They get hooked like I am.
<< <i>5. How dealers can make a living going all over the country to coin shows. >>
The do it the old fashioned way ... They work their butts off ... You have to like what you do, but if you do enjoy the hobby and the "art of the deal" it does not seem like work. I LOVED
<< <i>6. Why people are so intranced by TPGs and put full faith in certain plastic and won't even look at other plastic. The TPG ARE good for the hobby, >>
I don't put "full faith" in plastic, but I'm also a PCGS and NGC guy. The reason is I like fooling with the registry. Another reason is that while there are good coins in the other TPG holders, it's harder to sell those coins for good prices, and I've lost my taste for the cross-over game.
<< <i>
<< <i>1. How wholesale dealers exist? >>
They sell to dealers who cater to the retail trade. If you have dealt with some members of the collecting public, you can understand why some dealers do want to put up with them.
<< <i>2. Dealers that don't do retail and only deal with other dealers. How do you get started in this >>
You go to many shows, and establish your reputation for your expertise and fair dealing. These guys really have to know the market and waste other dealers' time by "taking shots" with prices that are too high to be viable.
<< <i>3. How dealers get enough coins cheap enough to resell. >>
They work the auctions, and they also spend many hours going through other dealers' inventory looking for viable buys. They also might have a list of clients, both collector and invester, who are ready to sell their holdings privately. Auctions MIGHT yield higher prices or they might not. You also have to wait for the auction to take place to get all of your money. Private treaty sales are often faster.
<< <i>4. Why people spend so much for coins to begin with? >>
They get hooked like I am.
<< <i>5. How dealers can make a living going all over the country to coin shows. >>
The do it the old fashioned way ... They work their butts off ... You have to like what you do, but if you do enjoy the hobby and the "art of the deal" it does not seem like work. I LOVED
<< <i>6. Why people are so intranced by TPGs and put full faith in certain plastic and won't even look at other plastic. The TPG ARE good for the hobby, >>
I don't put "full faith" in plastic, but I'm also a PCGS and NGC guy. The reason is I like fooling with the registry. Another reason is that while there are good coins in the other TPG holders, it's harder to sell those coins for good prices, and I've lost my taste for the cross-over game. >>
Hey Bill, concerning number 3; When you were a fulltime dealer, what percentage of your inventory walked in off the street?
<< <i>On the subject of how do dealers make a living....
One dealer once talked about how he would typically sell $150,000-$200,000 at a show, and make about $10,000. That sounds reasonable, except, it seemed like there was no where even close to $150,000 worth of coins in his display case, and there was no line of people buying coins. When you go back the next day it looks as if he has all the same inventory. So what gives? How is that much money actually being made? >>
His inventory was most likely picked over before the general public was allowed on the browse floor.
<< <i>Hey Bill, concerning number 3; When you were a fulltime dealer, what percentage of your inventory walked in off the street? >>
For me, not a lot at the shows. I got some collections through family connections and friends. Most of the time I worked through other dealers. Want lists were my speciality. A lot of dealers won't bother with them. They would rather flip coins at the shows as fast as possible. That is a partial answer to a previous question about how a dealer "looked" like he didn't sell anything at the show. Some of the stuff changed hands a couple times before the show was over.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand the US Mint Coin Crazes. There's an initial BIG mark-up, and then within a year (after demand settles) prices drop to at/below Mint cost.
The flippers make the money, while the collectors lose(?) money??? This doesn't make ANY sense from the standpoint of those that collect these coins! >>
I don't get this either. To me it is one of the downsides to modern coins. Some things are "the flavor of the month," and then it's over. The flipper and mint purchase guys are off to the next conquest and "the favor of the month" is seldom heard from again.
Why do grading companies skip numbers? If a coin deserves a grade of "37" on the 70 point scale, it is my understanding it will be rounded up or down, instead of given the grade of 37.
(42)
<< <i>I'm still fuzzy on the wholesale market works exactly where all those coins end up. MJ >>
Me too.
Long time eBayer with 100% feedback rating, trying out the PCGS boards to save the fees!
Successful transactions with several board members here including abitofthisabitofthat, marcovan and others
There are many "end users" for a low end pattern. Often, it's somebody that is intrigued by the whole concept/story of patterns, and he just wants to have one. Any pattern will do.
The other "typical" buyer for such coins is someone that has decided to collect patterns, but he's hasn't spent the time to come up with a plan yet. He's just in the initial trial and accumulation phase.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I have another one-
Why do grading companies skip numbers? If a coin deserves a grade of "37" on the 70 point scale, it is my understanding it will be rounded up or down, instead of given the grade of 37. >>
If you can figure out what a "37" is, especially on a consistent basis, you are far more talented than those of us who have been applying the Sheldon scale for over 30 years.
The Sheldon scale numbers were first created as a pricing tool. The numbers were based on his observations about relative value of Seldon variety large cents in the various grades. There fore a very choice, virtually EF grade large cent was worth 35 times more than a badly worn, but undamaged piece that had barely enough of the design left to assign a Sheldon variety number to it. That was the basis for the numbers.
Sheldon's evaluation system failed, but the grading numbers have survived.
Please, don't even go there with a 100 point scale. I'm sick to death of debating that issue. The only entities who would benefit from that would be the TPGs who would get to grade all of the coins again for a lot of money. Collectors would get hosed.
<< <i>Just one question as I feel I might have missed something...
When did it become chic for alcohol to be consumed on the browse floor
Booze makes it easier for dealers to jack the prices up. If you think the price is high, a few more glasses will help you see you were wrong.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
2) Why is it that there's almost an invisible wall between dealers and retail collectors? Ie., I have some dealer friends and through them I find out what is going on in numismatics, who is buying what, which particular coins are being hyped / hoarded right now, etc. But a collector without these contacts is clueless about these items, and that has to hurt him / her when it comes to buying and selling coins.
3) Other than be willing to constantly buy from specific dealers and hope you don't get high priced govno sent to you on approval, what does it take to get first shot at material? This is really how to buy nice material before it changes hands three or four times and becomes too pricey for me to consider. I've only gotten first shot on several nice coins in all of the years I have been collecting, and that's because someone I knew came across a particular coin I liked.
4) Why is it that a major dealer acted as if I propositioned his grandmother when I politely asked him if he could come down between 8 and 9% on a $10K-$15K coin in which I was interested?
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I personally think it all has to do with Ego.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
One dealer once talked about how he would typically sell $150,000-$200,000 at a show, and make about $10,000. That sounds reasonable, except, it seemed like there was no where even close to $150,000 worth of coins in his display case, and there was no line of people buying coins. When you go back the next day it looks as if he has all the same inventory. So what gives? How is that much money actually being made? >>
His inventory was most likely picked over before the general public was allowed on the browse floor.
I realized this after going to shows for about 10 years or so. The fact is most of the money is made in dealer to dealer transactions before the show opens to the public.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Well, I've only been collecting since May of 2008, but there are some things that elude me about the hobby still- maybe if I post them somebody will explain it to me and by time I hit my 5 year mark they won't elude me anymore?
1. Why toning is popular. Yes, I know it's a natural reaction, but it does not look good to me in the least. I would much rather have a non-rusty car than a car that's covered in rust. (Been there, done that anyway- parts would fall off while sitting still!) I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I don't get it. >>
IMO, toning is simply a marketing tool thats used to sell an otherwise common coin for not so common prices. Kinda like First Strike™?
<< <i>2. Why US-only collectors complain so much. It seems that for everything that's done, there will be a group of people who feel the need to make like it's the end of the world/hobby. Uh, if you don't like it, just ignore it. It's not that hard, and it would likely be better for your health. It's not like that in the world and currency fields, so why is it in the US part? >>
I think we complain about everything.
<< <i>3. Why there is such a bias against modern coins. So what if they are new, and there are a lot of them? Are you collecting because you love the hobby, or because you want something that not everyone else has? 90% of my collection- or likely more- is modern, and I'm proud of it. (I define modern as post-silver era). I have more coins from 2002 than any other year. >>
Primarily because even a common 90% Silver coin has value to a non-collector and as such it adds respectable value to any collection. The same is true to coin series which no longer exist or a coin which is 100 years old. If we're still around in 2065, folks will appreciate those 1965 Copper-Nickel coins! More than likely, they;ll be amazed that coins or even money was actually carried around!
<< <i>4. Why people put more emphasis on what they can sell their collection for, instead of what the collection is. The way I see it is, if you are only concerned about how much you can sell it for, you aren't a collector at all. >>
Again, this is a value thing. Folks want to feel good about what they do in their spare time and if they can sell it for xx bucks at some point in the future, then the time spent looking for the piece is time well spent. If something has actual value, it has a better chance of surviving. I have no idea what happened to my bottle cap collection!
<< <i>5. Why some people include errors in their base set. The way I view it, is that errors (Like for example the 3-legged buffalo) are not part of the base set, but a nice added bonus to it. If, and it's a big if, I ever complete my buffalo nickel set, it won't have a 3-legged in it, and I'll still view it as complete. Many others wouldn't. I honestly don't see that happening anytime in the next decade, if ever, so it's just an example, but I think it defines my point. >>
This has more to do with market acceptability than anything else. The legend's surrounding certain coins is what bolsters their value and acceptability. If they are widely accepted then they become a part of the set. BTW, the 3 Leg Buffalo is considered a die state variety instead of an actual error.
<< <i>6. Why some people get so caught up over what holder it's in. As long as it's (reasonably) protected from the elements and you feel confidant it's genuine- not a fake/knockoff- who cares who put it in a holder? >>
The holder determines market value and collector acceptability.
<< <i>7. What the allure of gold is. Yes, really. Sure it looks nice, but there's no way it should cost as much as it does. It's not really THAT rare. Maybe I just feel this way because I can't afford any, and have absolutely none. Maybe if I had some I'd feel differently. No real way to tell, I suppose. But I've never been one to just follow the popular idea blindly, and I feel that the high costs of gold and silver are just that- artificially inflated and not based in fact. >>
Gold and Silver are used in current industry and as such are subject to the same price fluctuations as any other commodity. The fact that folks "used" to carry this stuff in their pockets for daily commerce simply adds to the allure of these metals.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>IMO, toning is simply a marketing tool thats used to sell an otherwise common coin for not so common prices. Kinda like First Strike™? >>
Well, not really. Toning is a physical attribute of the coin rather than an arbitrary designation
like "First Strike". To people who appreciate them, beautiful toners are unique works of art.
Since color usually brings a premium, sellers tend to mention it, but there have been eras
when "blast white" was in demand and hence a "marketing tool".....
<< <i>
<< <i>I have another one-
Why do grading companies skip numbers? If a coin deserves a grade of "37" on the 70 point scale, it is my understanding it will be rounded up or down, instead of given the grade of 37. >>
If you can figure out what a "37" is, especially on a consistent basis, you are far more talented than those of us who have been applying the Sheldon scale for over 30 years.
The Sheldon scale numbers were first created as a pricing tool. The numbers were based on his observations about relative value of Seldon variety large cents in the various grades. There fore a very choice, virtually EF grade large cent was worth 35 times more than a badly worn, but undamaged piece that had barely enough of the design left to assign a Sheldon variety number to it. That was the basis for the numbers.
Sheldon's evaluation system failed, but the grading numbers have survived.
Please, don't even go there with a 100 point scale. I'm sick to death of debating that issue. The only entities who would benefit from that would be the TPGs who would get to grade all of the coins again for a lot of money. Collectors would get hosed. >>
Bill, thanks for that info. I didn't know it had anything to do with pricing. That also explains why 70 was chosen (it always seemed arbitrary to me) instead of 50 or even 75 or 100.
<< <i>Why many collectors will spend thousands on grading fees and and even more thousands on coins from large auction houses, but if I as a collector, have nice coins for sale any price near Grey shteet is a tough sale and $1 or $2 more will instantly crush the deal no matter the quality of the coin or the key date status. >>
This sort of problem is not as pervasive in the early copper world. Come over to the chocolate side.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>1. How wholesale dealers exist? >>
Most of them buy large quantities of coins from dealers for which the local market is too
small to absorb. These coins are bought cheap by the dealer with the intention of ship-
ping to the wholesalers. The coins are sold to collectors and specialist dealers who can
pay more than the discounted market price. They make money on volume. Many of these
coins are "value added" by assembling them into collections or taking them from mint pac-
kaging.
<< <i>2. Dealers that don't do retail and only deal with other dealers. How do you get started in this >>
Most start out as dealers and then find a niche. Most buy a limited range of material. A
few survive largely by their ability to negotiate. Most are very familiar with the markets.
<< <i>3. How dealers get enough coins cheap enough to resell. >>
It's easy to buy coins cheap. It's hard to get market price and harder still to sell retail. Sell-
ong value added coins usually takes extensive advertising.
<< <i>4. Why people spend so much for coins to begin with? >>
Mmmmm... ...my precious.
<< <i>5. How dealers can make a living going all over the country to coin shows. >>
Some go for the contacts and some to move coins. Many dealers don't travel extensively so
you have to go to them. Many collectors don't travel as well.
<< <i>6. Why people are so intranced by TPGs and put full faith in certain plastic and won't even look at other plastic. The TPG ARE good for the hobby,
but people still need to think!! >>
>>
I'm not sure if this is a question or an editorial.
Some people are just poor graders but the trust in third party grading is that they are the on-
ly game in town for an independent (and insuured) opinion. Buyers and sellers are almost al-
ways at least one grade different in opinion. Ever notice how your opinion of a coin goes up a
little after ya' buy it?