<< <i>and you didn't split part of that huge profit with the seller who obviously didn't know what they had? Shame on you.
Actually I did, I sent the guy back a little extra since the stuff sold for more than I thought it would. The kicker was the guy knew the stuff would sell for a lot, it was just a lot of individual cards and he just wanted to be rid of them. He even followed the auctions I had on ebay and congratulated me on doing well with them. It was a case where an educated seller who was reasonably well off decided he wanted to be rid of everything so he fire-saled it. His biggest issue was that it was so much stuff he needed someone to come pick it up, which nobody else on the boards bothered to do. So the motivation he used to get someone out there was to sell it at a price where someone like me couldn't resist. He'd been collecting a particular player for the last 20 years so he knew what the stuff was worth, he just didn't want to be bothered with it anymore. >>
Whatever happened to Roger?
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps - uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
No way do you get this deal bought for $3k. I don't know all that much about current card values and even I know that's a rip offer. With him having owned it this long you aren't going to get this deal cheap on an outright purchase. I'm willing to bet he's thinking it's a five-figure deal. I think your best shot at making any money from this deal is to broker it for him for a percentage fee. That way you are both happy. jmho
The seller if you remember stated his friends collection was much larger, so the assumption is, he is expecting something less than 8k.
Go back to what Vette said. "4 dimes on the table", and see what he says. Based upon the info this collection will sell for between 4 and 7k. At 7k you will make out very well.
I love seeing all the different sides of everyone's thought process. Very good thread.
Hope you can get this lot for as little as possible.
The amount of work, supplies, capital and time you'll need to spend after the purchase to realize the true value of it will most likely dwarf the initial price.
Everyone has their reason(s) for getting into deals like this and it's best to go in respecting the capabilities of the seller you're dealing with lest YOU be taken to the cleaners.
If this sale goes through at the 3k mark it sounds like you have potential for a real winner here. If this does happen make sure to bring plenty of Card Saver 1s and Super Vault boxes so you can transfer the goods safely.
Looking forward to photos and grades.
Cheers >>
read carefully op....some telling remarks in here.
eyebone
"I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
These boards are a great tool for learning.....and I've learned that if there was ever a potential big deal to not mention it on these boards. Folks when these cards are raw you can not bring grading into the equation. Seller doesn't know about grading and they are not graded. I'm not hearing about 52 Mantle's or T206 Cobbs or 33 Ruths....there's a bunch of cards from the 60's mostly and they are ungraded.
<< <i>These boards are a great tool for learning.....and I've learned that if there was ever a potential big deal to not mention it on these boards. Folks when these cards are raw you can not bring grading into the equation. Seller doesn't know about grading and they are not graded. I'm not hearing about 52 Mantle's or T206 Cobbs or 33 Ruths....there's a bunch of cards from the 60's mostly and they are ungraded. >>
I agree on both points. Great info here from knowledgeable collectors, but discussing business deals always creates a stir as there are many different views on how to handle the opportunity. There are also a lot of different views on what is ethical business practice and what isn't.
Personally, I've enjoyed reading about the find and find nothing ethically questionable about the OP and his approach. I'll be curious to see the cards if he closes the deal.
<< <i>it is the sellers obligation to partake in due diligence...
I doubt tsalems thinks he is the only one that has seen or will see this collection before sale...
the seller could come back and tell him to pound sand...
everything else here is speculation... >>
Which is exactly why a "lowball offer" is a very bad idea in my opinion.
From anyone who has been in outside sales they'll understand this...it's always better to be last than first when firmly quoting a deal...to add a point...if I was the potential buyer I would do whatever it takes to get this deal done, and one way to do that would be to make an initial good solid offer, don't be foolish and try to lowball it, but also to emphatically tell the seller to please contact him last, or words to that effect, after getting all possible offers, that he the buyer will beat any other offer the seller gets.
My $.02...if people here really believe the seller should be paid based on graded value (or potential of graded value), let me know what cards you are interested in. I will buy some graded examples with lower grades but nice eye appeal that you can overpay for.
Grading is no guarantee. If a raw card in nice looking (nmmt +) condition goes for $50, but an 8 sells for say $75, and as a 9 the card goes for $500, are you really going to pay anywhere close to $500 if think it may 9? Now would you especially implement this practice on a grand scale? Paying high raw value is one thing...paying "estimated" slabbed values on a raw card is a good way to lose out.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
I know one thing's for sure, and that's that tsalems is in no way going to let us know how the deal turned out after watching what this thread has turned into.
How much did that one dude pay to have Carly Simon whisper to him the inspiration for "You're so Vain"? And can someone confirm it wasn't Mark Gastineau?
<< <i>How much did that one dude pay to have Carly Simon whisper to him the inspiration for "You're so Vain"? And can someone confirm it wasn't Mark Gastineau? >>
You're so Vain is about Warren Beatty. No whispering necessary - purely born out of experience as they dated back in the day. This is what I learned in 8th grade English!
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
<< <i>How much did that one dude pay to have Carly Simon whisper to him the inspiration for "You're so Vain"? And can someone confirm it wasn't Mark Gastineau? >>
You're so Vain is about Warren Beatty. No whispering necessary - purely born out of experience as they dated back in the day. This is what I learned in 8th grade English! >>
I was kidding about Gastineau. It is really about David Geffen. I remember a couple years back some guy paid an ungodly some at a charity auction to find out and after winning the auction, Carly Simon walked over and whispered who it was about in his ear. Months later he let the world know.
I was wondering if the auction to find out how this deal turned out would rival the amount paid at that auction.
However I think my joke died on the vine with clowns in the coffee. Sorry for any distraction to the thread and I sincerely hope both sides get an equitable deal done.
I believe she did reveal the inspiration of that song in a recent remake of "Youre So Vain". It was indeed...David Geffen. Apparently there is a part in the remake when played backwards reveals Davids name. I stopped playing records backwards after I could not confirm that Paul was dead.
I never heard of David Geffen - so just out of morbid curiosity I Googled it:
From Wikipedia:
<<< David Geffen is openly gay. In May 2007, Out magazine ranked Geffen first in their list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America."[10] >>>
So I think old Carly girl has got some of ya fooled. The song is obviously about Warren Beatty as she refers to "And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend" in which Beatty has acted in movies with the plot involving "underworld spies" as she calls it, and and it is well known that Beatty "did" a lot of women in Hollywood. Case closed.
Some rock stars love to do this for whatever reason...write song lyrics and then feign that it's about something else. As if "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD as John Lennon always denied. LOL
<< <i>If someone wants to sell me their $100,000 card collection, house, cars, widgets, whatever for $5000 then I'm gonna offer them $4000 and go from there, period. Survival of the fittest, the American way, or just business, Call it what you want. I know a lot of other people here won't say that but feel the same way and won't say it, but I will. >>
If someone offers me a $100,000 collection for $5,000, I will accept right away. I don't counteroffer. I don't want that person talking to any other potential buyers - I may lose out on the deal altogether.
<< <i>I never heard of David Geffen - so just out of morbid curiosity I Googled it:
From Wikipedia:
<<< David Geffen is openly gay. In May 2007, Out magazine ranked Geffen first in their list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America."[10] >>>
So I think old Carly girl has got some of ya fooled. The song is obviously about Warren Beatty as she refers to "And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend" in which Beatty has acted in movies with the plot involving "underworld spies" as she calls it, and and it is well known that Beatty "did" a lot of women in Hollywood. Case closed.
Some rock stars love to do this for whatever reason...write song lyrics and then feign that it's about something else. As if "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD as John Lennon always denied. LOL >>
Carly has repeatedly said it's a composite of three people and that it contains "a bit of Warren Beatty" and that there's a reference to Nick Nolte as well. She's also stated that it ain't Mick Jagger.
We know who Deep Throat was - you'd think this would have been definitely solved by now
Wow this thread has gotten way off topic. Let's all take a break and see if we can lure the OP back so that we can find out what happened. Also, can someone go look at my other thread and give me some advice on my Ryan rookie?
<< <i>I never heard of David Geffen - so just out of morbid curiosity I Googled it:
From Wikipedia:
<<< David Geffen is openly gay. In May 2007, Out magazine ranked Geffen first in their list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America."[10] >>>
So I think old Carly girl has got some of ya fooled. The song is obviously about Warren Beatty as she refers to "And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend" in which Beatty has acted in movies with the plot involving "underworld spies" as she calls it, and and it is well known that Beatty "did" a lot of women in Hollywood. Case closed.
Some rock stars love to do this for whatever reason...write song lyrics and then feign that it's about something else. As if "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD as John Lennon always denied. LOL >>
Carly has repeatedly said it's a composite of three people and that it contains "a bit of Warren Beatty" and that there's a reference to Nick Nolte as well. She's also stated that it ain't Mick Jagger.
We know who Deep Throat was - you'd think this would have been definitely solved by now
Tabe >>
I've heard Carly say that about the "composite", but in my opinion the inspiration and the "sarcastic tone" in her voice throughout the song was obviously about a woman scorned and I think Beatty was the main culprit...in any event, Carly is no "innocent" herself as she has been with a number of men. So be it...the romantic life of rock stars and Hollywood stars - if I didn't like the song, I couldn't care less about the situation. LOL
I agree...back to the cards, as this thread has a chance of being the best thread of the summer.
<< <i>f someone offers me a $100,000 collection for $5,000, I will accept right away. I don't counteroffer. I don't want that person talking to any other potential buyers - I may lose out on the deal altogether. >>
He was trying to save the grand so he could send it to a charity.
<< <i>I remember a couple years back some guy paid an ungodly some at a charity auction to find out and after winning the auction, Carly Simon walked over and whispered who it was about in his ear. Months later he let the world know. >>
For that money she better whisper it on my
Kiss me once, shame on you. Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Wow what a post. Most animated post in sometime. Very interesting. Agree with corvette and some with Nuts.
Graded vs. Raw and how to buy and you can never ever extrapolate to what a card will be valued at graded when it is unslabbed.
You can buy at low or high Beckett's or even SMR. When I buy raw cards regardless of grade I try to buy at PSA 5 levels and hope for the best. I bought some cards recently 72 Topps FB high numbers and paid way too much for them like $20 a card. Suffice it to say i got some 9's but mostly 8's and 7's no where near what I paid for them. The extrapolation from raw to graded can hurt. As such bidding low because as we all know as quantitative as we want to make grading those graders in Newport Beach have their own qualitative way of assessing grades. Think of prior posts talking about graders 188 and 189 for instance. See my last submission post
Caveat Emptor - Buyer beware. Financial Professional here full disclosure. Have traded bonds for a living my entire life.
Someone mentioned information asymmetry or Asymmetrical Information
Definition Condition in which at least some relevant information is known to some but not all parties involved. Information asymmetry causes markets to become inefficient, since all the market participants do not have access to the information they need for their decision making processes. opposite of information symmetry
The world is based on this premise. Corvette is right we are not all alike, we do not have the same net worth, live in the same neighborhood, go to the same Ivy League schools, or send our kids to the same private schools. Get my drift. Sometimes we are the right side of information usually when we make money and sometimes on the wrong side usually when we lose money. It is grown up world out there and that is why their are rules protecting minors.
As such Asymmetrical Information makes the world go around. Just like the Topps FB story above I came out with some lower graded examples for my#20 1972 Topps FB collection (anyone selling cheap PSA 8's and 9's please let me know).
This is what arbitrage and the world is all about. We are not taking advantage of anyone. Just like Pickers and American Storage we all have Google and we all have TV's and information.
As such it is not incumbent on any one of us buyer or seller to inform the other. Caveat Emptor applies to both sides. This is a free market economy and the Asymmetric Information in the world of Google tends to diminish over time. That is why we very rarely hear of "the great finds" PS if you do keep it to a close circle of friends.
The collection in question. If he seller wanted to know what it was worth he could go on Ebay and find out by the way everyone on the planet knows that most people pay 10-20% of high book in a wholesale trade. The only way to realize fair value for a collection even our own - is to grade what is gradeable, aggregate ungraded by set, genre or type and consign it to an auction house. This sale in question is a private sale. Most private sales have a bit of asymmetry. That is why most goods and services of high value trade in liquid- public markets. Why is Pickers, American Storage and other type show so popular these guys are taking advantage of this information gap. Ebay, Google, Amazon and Antique Roadshow dimish asymmetry and increase liquidity and information.
Take Aways
1. Two weeks is a long time. You can bet your bottom dollar $3K, $15K, $30K that seller will inform himself over the next two weeks. It was stated that "he was not sure if he wanted to sell" - During these two weeks he will be informing himself every way he knows how internet, friends, family, coin collectors, dealers, he may even go to a card show. If value is $32K I will conjecture this trade gets done on the low bid side of 25-30% so lets say $8-10K. That is fair value. Be my guest to take this at 50-60% of value. This is the BIN or Best offer never getting hit saga. Sellers always think their stuff is worth more than it really is. We have to factor as someone previously noted, time grading, shipping, aggregation, aggrevation etc.
2. People make money on the difference of informed vs. uninformed or when one person has better information. One thing to realize here is the difference in a fiduciary, agent and principal. Look it up not going to go one there. But briefly the only fiduciaries in the world are really your stock broker as you have the right to sue him for misrepresentation, fraud or bad judgment. In a similar vein, not financial, a doctor while not a fiduciary has a responsibility - since your money is not worth anything if you are not alive. Other people that have licenses and bear some responsibility include insurance salesman, stockbrokers, real estate salesman. While a business/hobby sports memorabilia enthusiasts, dealers etc have no such fiduciary responsibility. As for "ripping" someone, a relationship deal vs. a one off as mentioned carries a lot of weight. You would want repeat sellers like this guy I presume.
3. TSalem since I just bought I great PSA 8 card from you for $5 off you and got it fast two days in the mail - I call you friend. Next time this happens call me and we can chat about. You have to make a profit on most trades - everything in the world is a trade from dealing with your Walmart salesman buying a dinged up gas grill for $50 off retail because it is damaged to buying ungraded cards. Buyer is taking the risk here.
4. Remember when the ninny's in DC did not get the difference between agent, principal and fiduciary during the Senate hearings on the 2008 collapse of the mortgage market and Wall Street. Their is no fiduciary responsibility on the part of the salesmen when selling to institutions. However, retail brokers do have a fiduciary responsibility. On the institutional side (ie Goldman Sachs buying protection on CDO tranches from AIG - AIG were Qualified Investment Buyers (QIB'S). As such they had minimum capital requirements and "were deemed knowledgeable." No such obligation here exists for TSalem There is a difference in acting as an agent, principal and fiduciary as stated above.
4. Seller in this case is on the wrong side of the information curve. Given what I know about efficient market theory he will get informed over the next two weeks. If not that almost passes for enough time for most sellers/buyers remorse clauses. and his loss. Uninformed sellers are a buyers good trade.
I know the original poster I assume that what is meant by OP in others posts will not respond to this email chain anymore. Personally I would not, I hope he does once the transaction is completed. I am mainly a Football and Basketball guy here although I collect baseball full 70's run with a few 70 and 71's needed and as such I have no axe here. I want to say this we are all saying the same thing, Many of the posts may have been jealousy about not being offered this. It is late as I am currently training for Ironman Lake Placid (I am not just a card geek LOL) So 24 hours of biking running and swimming this weekend up in the Adirondacks have me blathering on such topics as economic theory, relative fiduciary responsibility and all of us looking for that next big card windfall to go with our W-2's, K-1's, 1099-A and B's and our dividend and coupon payments.
TSALEM good luck if you want a partner in this one 50% capital commitment on my part, but I want to see the cards too. If you need some assistance give me a shout. As for the socialist/capitalist discussion I come out somewhere in between. Non disclosure is NOT material non disclosure. What buyer doesn't say is often telling. Seller will get educated over the near term you can bet on it.
ASYMMETRICAL INFORMATION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry This link should help I don't think this is moral hazard or anywhere near it. It is again incumbent upon both buyer and seller to be informed as possible entering into a transaction and not an obligation on either party to inform other unless they are acting as a fiduciary under the above aforementioned circumstances.
FIDUCIARY A fiduciary duty (from Latin fiduciarius, meaning "(holding) in trust"; from fides, meaning "faith", and fiducia, meaning "trust") is a legal or ethical relationship of confidence or trust regarding the management of money or property between two or more parties, most commonly a fiduciary and a principal. One party, for example a corporate trust company or the trust department of a bank, holds a fiduciary relation or acts in a fiduciary capacity to another, such as one whose funds are entrusted to it for investment. In a fiduciary relation one person, in a position of vulnerability, justifiably reposes confidence, good faith, reliance and trust in another whose aid, advice or protection is sought in some matter. In such a relation good conscience requires one to act at all times for the sole benefit and interests of another, with loyalty to those interests.
A fiduciary is someone who has undertaken to act for and on behalf of another in a particular matter in circumstances which give rise to a relationship of trust and confidence. —Bristol & West Building Society v Mothew [1998] Ch 1 at 18 per Lord Millett
A fiduciary duty[1] is the highest standard of care at either equity or law. A fiduciary (abbreviation fid) is expected to be extremely loyal to the person to whom he owes the duty (the "principal"): he must not put his personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from his position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents.
In English common law the fiduciary relation is arguably the most important concept within the portion of the legal system known as equity. In the United Kingdom, the Judicature Acts merged the courts of equity (historically based in England's Court of Chancery) with the courts of common law, and as a result the concept of fiduciary duty also became usable in common law courts.
When a fiduciary duty is imposed, equity requires a stricter standard of behavior than the comparable tortious duty of care at common law. It is said the fiduciary has a duty not to be in a situation where personal interests and fiduciary duty conflict, a duty not to be in a situation where his fiduciary duty conflicts with another fiduciary duty, and a duty not to profit from his fiduciary position without express knowledge and consent. A fiduciary cannot have a conflict of interest. It has been said that fiduciaries must conduct themselves "at a level higher than that trodden by the crowd"[2] and that "[t]he distinguishing or overriding duty of a fiduciary is the obligation of undivided loyalty."[3]
TSalem has not represented himself as a fiduciary and because of information asymmetry that is where we are on this, and frankly the reason we all love this hobby be honest is this asymmetrical information game we all play. We want to be on the right side of it. Good luck in getting on the right side of the curve.
Enough pontificating. Lets all trade more so we don't spend money on cards and trade for like value and build our sets. Here is hoping we all find those PSA 10 1of1's for $1 when going through commons.
<< <i>The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. >>
I'm rooting for the OP to maximize profit and find gems but I think I'll take the under here. Just guessing but I think that sometimes adrenaline and optimism can make 7s look like 9s.
I'd like to thank all of the great human beings on the Collectors Universe sports card message boards for teaching us selfish jerks how to treat people who we have business dealings with. At first I wondered how you could have time for posting messages about anything mundane when you feel such a strong compulsion to teach lazy strangers how to make a bigger profit off of you. I would think that's a 24/7 job. But now I know better. You have spare time because you MAKE time to show selfish people just how awful they really are. You magnificent b@stards are changing the world one scummy baseball card profiteer at a time. Well done, guys. You aren't just message board folk. You are heros. And don't ever let anyone tell you different.
<< <i>The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. >>
I'm rooting for the OP to maximize profit and find gems but I think I'll take the under here. Just guessing but I think that sometimes adrenaline and optimism can make 7s look like 9s.
I'd like to thank all of the great human beings on the Collectors Universe sports card message boards for teaching us selfish jerks how to treat people who we have business dealings with. At first I wondered how you could have time for posting messages about anything mundane when you feel such a strong compulsion to teach lazy strangers how to make a bigger profit off of you. I would think that's a 24/7 job. But now I know better. You have spare time because you MAKE time to show selfish people just how awful they really are. You magnificent b@stards are changing the world one scummy baseball card profiteer at a time. Well done, guys. You aren't just message board folk. You are heros. And don't ever let anyone tell you different. >>
lol, great post.
Great post from CaliforniaCards as well. Good to know I'm not the only one on here that believes in hard work and capitalism. I wonder if all of these "cardboard heroes" would want to take all of their collections and put them all in a big pot and then redistribute equally among all collectors?
<< <i>Wow this thread has gotten way off topic. Let's all take a break and see if we can lure the OP back so that we can find out what happened. >>
The OP ain't revisiting this thread. However, he has reached a movie deal with HBO to make a series drama about this find. >>
I don't see anything at all wrong with this thread as far as the OP is concerned. The bottom line is if the OP doesn't get the deal which in my opinion is likely the case, then the thread fades away quickly. But if the OP gets the deal, then this thread could reach 1,000 posts with scans of the cards, offers to buy, etc.
alright, alright.....ms. simon was referring to me in her classic " you're so vain" tune. we had a little thing going back in the day (hell, it was actually quite a large thing) and she was so moved she opted to commemorate it in song. i was obviously much younger back then, and, sad to admit, a wee bit full of myself. she was a great gal and a lively one too, as i recall.
eyebone
"I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
Tommy, we get your political views... you've driven that home quite well by now.
There's a huge difference between making a profit, and publicly bragging about getting ready to rip a guy off. Whether he is ACTUALLY ripping the guy off is debatable, but the OP has already admitted that he's going to try to. THAT is what doesn't sit well with most of us. While I know it's hard to reason with "your kind", we're not all afraid of making a buck in this hobby like you insinuate. Just not at the expense of our hobby. With your history, you should probably look up the term "scruples".
Scruples - Noun - referring to a section of the Ples settlement in the Moravèe municipality in central Slovenia. Scruples was derived as a term to denote prostitutes from this area.
~ Jim was too ugly to pick up a woman from the bar and too poor to buy any of the Scruples that were out in full force.
Comments
<< <i>and you didn't split part of that huge profit with the seller who obviously didn't know what they had? Shame on you.
Actually I did, I sent the guy back a little extra since the stuff sold for more than I thought it would. The kicker was the guy knew the stuff would sell for a lot, it was just a lot of individual cards and he just wanted to be rid of them. He even followed the auctions I had on ebay and congratulated me on doing well with them. It was a case where an educated seller who was reasonably well off decided he wanted to be rid of everything so he fire-saled it. His biggest issue was that it was so much stuff he needed someone to come pick it up, which nobody else on the boards bothered to do. So the motivation he used to get someone out there was to sell it at a price where someone like me couldn't resist. He'd been collecting a particular player for the last 20 years so he knew what the stuff was worth, he just didn't want to be bothered with it anymore. >>
Whatever happened to Roger?
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
last I heard he was into getting the 59 set autographed, this was about 3 -4 months ago.
Go back to what Vette said. "4 dimes on the table", and see what he says. Based upon the info this collection will sell for between 4 and 7k. At 7k you will make out very well.
I love seeing all the different sides of everyone's thought process. Very good thread.
"Live everyday, don't throw it away"
<< <i>Very exciting.
Hope you can get this lot for as little as possible.
The amount of work, supplies, capital and time you'll need to spend after the purchase to realize the true value of it will most likely dwarf the initial price.
Everyone has their reason(s) for getting into deals like this and it's best to go in respecting the capabilities of the seller you're dealing with lest YOU be taken to the cleaners.
If this sale goes through at the 3k mark it sounds like you have potential for a real winner here. If this does happen make sure to bring plenty of Card Saver 1s and Super Vault boxes so you can transfer the goods safely.
Looking forward to photos and grades.
Cheers >>
read carefully op....some telling remarks in here.
eyebone
<< <i>These boards are a great tool for learning.....and I've learned that if there was ever a potential big deal to not mention it on these boards. Folks when these cards are raw you can not bring grading into the equation. Seller doesn't know about grading and they are not graded. I'm not hearing about 52 Mantle's or T206 Cobbs or 33 Ruths....there's a bunch of cards from the 60's mostly and they are ungraded. >>
I agree on both points. Great info here from knowledgeable collectors, but discussing business deals always creates a stir as there are many different views on how to handle the opportunity. There are also a lot of different views on what is ethical business practice and what isn't.
Personally, I've enjoyed reading about the find and find nothing ethically questionable about the OP and his approach. I'll be curious to see the cards if he closes the deal.
It wasn't Roger's collection that I bought if that's what you're getting at.
Steve
<< <i>it is the sellers obligation to partake in due diligence...
I doubt tsalems thinks he is the only one that has seen or will see this collection before sale...
the seller could come back and tell him to pound sand...
everything else here is speculation... >>
Which is exactly why a "lowball offer" is a very bad idea in my opinion.
From anyone who has been in outside sales they'll understand this...it's always better to be last than first when firmly quoting a deal...to add a point...if I was the potential buyer I would do whatever it takes to get this deal done, and one way to do that would be to make an initial good solid offer, don't be foolish and try to lowball it, but also to emphatically tell the seller to please contact him last, or words to that effect, after getting all possible offers, that he the buyer will beat any other offer the seller gets.
Grading is no guarantee. If a raw card in nice looking (nmmt +) condition goes for $50, but an 8 sells for say $75, and as a 9 the card goes for $500, are you really going to pay anywhere close to $500 if think it may 9? Now would you especially implement this practice on a grand scale? Paying high raw value is one thing...paying "estimated" slabbed values on a raw card is a good way to lose out.
what this thread has turned into.
<< <i> know one thing's for sure, and that's that tsalems is in no way going to let us know how the deal turned out after watching >>
+1
(What a shame)
COWABUNGA!!
<< <i>i say he should auction off the right to know and only tell the highest bidder.
COWABUNGA!! >>
I'm willing to pay a finder's fee, lowball offer of $100 right now for the rights.
<< <i>
<< <i>i say he should auction off the right to know and only tell the highest bidder.
COWABUNGA!! >>
I'm willing to pay a finder's fee, lowball offer of $100 right now for the rights.
Whatever anyone here offers, I'll offer $5 more.
<< <i>How much did that one dude pay to have Carly Simon whisper to him the inspiration for "You're so Vain"? And can someone confirm it wasn't Mark Gastineau? >>
You're so Vain is about Warren Beatty. No whispering necessary - purely born out of experience as they dated back in the day. This is what I learned in 8th grade English!
<< <i>
<< <i>How much did that one dude pay to have Carly Simon whisper to him the inspiration for "You're so Vain"? And can someone confirm it wasn't Mark Gastineau? >>
You're so Vain is about Warren Beatty. No whispering necessary - purely born out of experience as they dated back in the day. This is what I learned in 8th grade English! >>
I was kidding about Gastineau. It is really about David Geffen. I remember a couple years back some guy paid an ungodly some at a charity auction to find out and after winning the auction, Carly Simon walked over and whispered who it was about in his ear. Months later he let the world know.
I was wondering if the auction to find out how this deal turned out would rival the amount paid at that auction.
However I think my joke died on the vine with clowns in the coffee. Sorry for any distraction to the thread and I sincerely hope both sides get an equitable deal done.
Beatty is just one of many whom people think it was.
At least this is what her official web site still claims.
Edited: spelling
The auction stated that the winner could never tell anyone who the song was about.
Possible candidates include Jackson Browne, Mick Jagger, and the aforementioned.
What would Warren Buffett's card collection look like ? A lot of 88 donruss I suppose.
Apparently there is a part in the remake when played backwards reveals Davids name.
I stopped playing records backwards after I could not confirm that Paul was dead.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
From Wikipedia:
<<< David Geffen is openly gay. In May 2007, Out magazine ranked Geffen first in their list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America."[10] >>>
So I think old Carly girl has got some of ya fooled. The song is obviously about Warren Beatty as she refers to "And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend" in which Beatty has acted in movies with the plot involving "underworld spies" as she calls it, and and it is well known that Beatty "did" a lot of women in Hollywood. Case closed.
Some rock stars love to do this for whatever reason...write song lyrics and then feign that it's about something else. As if "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD as John Lennon always denied. LOL
the offspring of Boy George.
<< <i>If someone wants to sell me their $100,000 card collection, house, cars, widgets, whatever for $5000 then I'm gonna offer them $4000 and go from there, period. Survival of the fittest, the American way, or just business, Call it what you want. I know a lot of other people here won't say that but feel the same way and won't say it, but I will.
>>
If someone offers me a $100,000 collection for $5,000, I will accept right away. I don't counteroffer. I don't want that person talking to any other potential buyers - I may lose out on the deal altogether.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I never heard of David Geffen - so just out of morbid curiosity I Googled it:
From Wikipedia:
<<< David Geffen is openly gay. In May 2007, Out magazine ranked Geffen first in their list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America."[10] >>>
So I think old Carly girl has got some of ya fooled. The song is obviously about Warren Beatty as she refers to "And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend" in which Beatty has acted in movies with the plot involving "underworld spies" as she calls it, and and it is well known that Beatty "did" a lot of women in Hollywood. Case closed.
Some rock stars love to do this for whatever reason...write song lyrics and then feign that it's about something else. As if "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD as John Lennon always denied. LOL >>
Carly has repeatedly said it's a composite of three people and that it contains "a bit of Warren Beatty" and that there's a reference to Nick Nolte as well. She's also stated that it ain't Mick Jagger.
We know who Deep Throat was - you'd think this would have been definitely solved by now
Tabe
For Sale on eBay
<< <i>
<< <i>I never heard of David Geffen - so just out of morbid curiosity I Googled it:
From Wikipedia:
<<< David Geffen is openly gay. In May 2007, Out magazine ranked Geffen first in their list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America."[10] >>>
So I think old Carly girl has got some of ya fooled. The song is obviously about Warren Beatty as she refers to "And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend" in which Beatty has acted in movies with the plot involving "underworld spies" as she calls it, and and it is well known that Beatty "did" a lot of women in Hollywood. Case closed.
Some rock stars love to do this for whatever reason...write song lyrics and then feign that it's about something else. As if "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD as John Lennon always denied. LOL >>
Carly has repeatedly said it's a composite of three people and that it contains "a bit of Warren Beatty" and that there's a reference to Nick Nolte as well. She's also stated that it ain't Mick Jagger.
We know who Deep Throat was - you'd think this would have been definitely solved by now
Tabe >>
I've heard Carly say that about the "composite", but in my opinion the inspiration and the "sarcastic tone" in her voice throughout the song was obviously about a woman scorned and I think Beatty was the main culprit...in any event, Carly is no "innocent" herself as she has been with a number of men. So be it...the romantic life of rock stars and Hollywood stars - if I didn't like the song, I couldn't care less about the situation. LOL
I agree...back to the cards, as this thread has a chance of being the best thread of the summer.
<< <i>f someone offers me a $100,000 collection for $5,000, I will accept right away. I don't counteroffer. I don't want that person talking to any other potential buyers - I may lose out on the deal altogether. >>
He was trying to save the grand so he could send it to a charity.
LINKY DINK
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>I remember a couple years back some guy paid an ungodly some at a charity auction to find out and after winning the auction, Carly Simon walked over and whispered who it was about in his ear. Months later he let the world know. >>
For that money she better whisper it on my
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Graded vs. Raw and how to buy and you can never ever extrapolate to what a card will be valued at graded when it is unslabbed.
You can buy at low or high Beckett's or even SMR. When I buy raw cards regardless of grade I try to buy at PSA 5 levels and hope for the best. I bought some cards recently 72 Topps FB high numbers and paid way too much for them like $20 a card. Suffice it to say i got some 9's but mostly 8's and 7's no where near what I paid for them. The extrapolation from raw to graded can hurt. As such bidding low because as we all know as quantitative as we want to make grading those graders in Newport Beach have their own qualitative way of assessing grades. Think of prior posts talking about graders 188 and 189 for instance. See my last submission post
Caveat Emptor - Buyer beware. Financial Professional here full disclosure. Have traded bonds for a living my entire life.
Someone mentioned information asymmetry or Asymmetrical Information
Definition
Condition in which at least some relevant information is known to some but not all parties involved. Information asymmetry causes markets to become inefficient, since all the market participants do not have access to the information they need for their decision making processes. opposite of information symmetry
The world is based on this premise. Corvette is right we are not all alike, we do not have the same net worth, live in the same neighborhood, go to the same Ivy League schools, or send our kids to the same private schools. Get my drift. Sometimes we are the right side of information usually when we make money and sometimes on the wrong side usually when we lose money. It is grown up world out there and that is why their are rules protecting minors.
As such Asymmetrical Information makes the world go around. Just like the Topps FB story above I came out with some lower graded examples for my#20 1972 Topps FB collection (anyone selling cheap PSA 8's and 9's please let me know).
This is what arbitrage and the world is all about. We are not taking advantage of anyone. Just like Pickers and American Storage we all have Google and we all have TV's and information.
As such it is not incumbent on any one of us buyer or seller to inform the other. Caveat Emptor applies to both sides. This is a free market economy and the Asymmetric Information in the world of Google tends to diminish over time. That is why we very rarely hear of "the great finds" PS if you do keep it to a close circle of friends.
The collection in question. If he seller wanted to know what it was worth he could go on Ebay and find out by the way everyone on the planet knows that most people pay 10-20% of high book in a wholesale trade. The only way to realize fair value for a collection even our own - is to grade what is gradeable, aggregate ungraded by set, genre or type and consign it to an auction house. This sale in question is a private sale. Most private sales have a bit of asymmetry. That is why most goods and services of high value trade in liquid- public markets. Why is Pickers, American Storage and other type show so popular these guys are taking advantage of this information gap. Ebay, Google, Amazon and Antique Roadshow dimish asymmetry and increase liquidity and information.
Take Aways
1. Two weeks is a long time. You can bet your bottom dollar $3K, $15K, $30K that seller will inform himself over the next two weeks. It was stated that "he was not sure if he wanted to sell" - During these two weeks he will be informing himself every way he knows how internet, friends, family, coin collectors, dealers, he may even go to a card show. If value is $32K I will conjecture this trade gets done on the low bid side of 25-30% so lets say $8-10K. That is fair value. Be my guest to take this at 50-60% of value. This is the BIN or Best offer never getting hit saga. Sellers always think their stuff is worth more than it really is. We have to factor as someone previously noted, time grading, shipping, aggregation, aggrevation etc.
2. People make money on the difference of informed vs. uninformed or when one person has better information. One thing to realize here is the difference in a fiduciary, agent and principal. Look it up not going to go one there. But briefly the only fiduciaries in the world are really your stock broker as you have the right to sue him for misrepresentation, fraud or bad judgment. In a similar vein, not financial, a doctor while not a fiduciary has a responsibility - since your money is not worth anything if you are not alive. Other people that have licenses and bear some responsibility include insurance salesman, stockbrokers, real estate salesman. While a business/hobby sports memorabilia enthusiasts, dealers etc have no such fiduciary responsibility. As for "ripping" someone, a relationship deal vs. a one off as mentioned carries a lot of weight. You would want repeat sellers like this guy I presume.
3. TSalem since I just bought I great PSA 8 card from you for $5 off you and got it fast two days in the mail - I call you friend. Next time this happens call me and we can chat about. You have to make a profit on most trades - everything in the world is a trade from dealing with your Walmart salesman buying a dinged up gas grill for $50 off retail because it is damaged to buying ungraded cards. Buyer is taking the risk here.
4. Remember when the ninny's in DC did not get the difference between agent, principal and fiduciary during the Senate hearings on the 2008 collapse of the mortgage market and Wall Street. Their is no fiduciary responsibility on the part of the salesmen when selling to institutions. However, retail brokers do have a fiduciary responsibility. On the institutional side (ie Goldman Sachs buying protection on CDO tranches from AIG - AIG were Qualified Investment Buyers (QIB'S). As such they had minimum capital requirements and "were deemed knowledgeable." No such obligation here exists for TSalem There is a difference in acting as an agent, principal and fiduciary as stated above.
4. Seller in this case is on the wrong side of the information curve. Given what I know about efficient market theory he will get informed over the next two weeks. If not that almost passes for enough time for most sellers/buyers remorse clauses. and his loss. Uninformed sellers are a buyers good trade.
I know the original poster I assume that what is meant by OP in others posts will not respond to this email chain anymore. Personally I would not, I hope he does once the transaction is completed. I am mainly a Football and Basketball guy here although I collect baseball full 70's run with a few 70 and 71's needed and as such I have no axe here. I want to say this we are all saying the same thing, Many of the posts may have been jealousy about not being offered this. It is late as I am currently training for Ironman Lake Placid (I am not just a card geek LOL) So 24 hours of biking running and swimming this weekend up in the Adirondacks have me blathering on such topics as economic theory, relative fiduciary responsibility and all of us looking for that next big card windfall to go with our W-2's, K-1's, 1099-A and B's and our dividend and coupon payments.
TSALEM good luck if you want a partner in this one 50% capital commitment on my part, but I want to see the cards too. If you need some assistance give me a shout. As for the socialist/capitalist discussion I come out somewhere in between. Non disclosure is NOT material non disclosure. What buyer doesn't say is often telling. Seller will get educated over the near term you can bet on it.
ASYMMETRICAL INFORMATION
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
This link should help I don't think this is moral hazard or anywhere near it. It is again incumbent upon both buyer and seller to be informed as possible entering into a transaction and not an obligation on either party to inform other unless they are acting as a fiduciary under the above aforementioned circumstances.
FIDUCIARY
A fiduciary duty (from Latin fiduciarius, meaning "(holding) in trust"; from fides, meaning "faith", and fiducia, meaning "trust") is a legal or ethical relationship of confidence or trust regarding the management of money or property between two or more parties, most commonly a fiduciary and a principal. One party, for example a corporate trust company or the trust department of a bank, holds a fiduciary relation or acts in a fiduciary capacity to another, such as one whose funds are entrusted to it for investment. In a fiduciary relation one person, in a position of vulnerability, justifiably reposes confidence, good faith, reliance and trust in another whose aid, advice or protection is sought in some matter. In such a relation good conscience requires one to act at all times for the sole benefit and interests of another, with loyalty to those interests.
A fiduciary is someone who has undertaken to act for and on behalf of another in a particular matter in circumstances which give rise to a relationship of trust and confidence.
—Bristol & West Building Society v Mothew [1998] Ch 1 at 18 per Lord Millett
A fiduciary duty[1] is the highest standard of care at either equity or law. A fiduciary (abbreviation fid) is expected to be extremely loyal to the person to whom he owes the duty (the "principal"): he must not put his personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from his position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents.
In English common law the fiduciary relation is arguably the most important concept within the portion of the legal system known as equity. In the United Kingdom, the Judicature Acts merged the courts of equity (historically based in England's Court of Chancery) with the courts of common law, and as a result the concept of fiduciary duty also became usable in common law courts.
When a fiduciary duty is imposed, equity requires a stricter standard of behavior than the comparable tortious duty of care at common law. It is said the fiduciary has a duty not to be in a situation where personal interests and fiduciary duty conflict, a duty not to be in a situation where his fiduciary duty conflicts with another fiduciary duty, and a duty not to profit from his fiduciary position without express knowledge and consent. A fiduciary cannot have a conflict of interest. It has been said that fiduciaries must conduct themselves "at a level higher than that trodden by the crowd"[2] and that "[t]he distinguishing or overriding duty of a fiduciary is the obligation of undivided loyalty."[3]
TSalem has not represented himself as a fiduciary and because of information asymmetry that is where we are on this, and frankly the reason we all love this hobby be honest is this asymmetrical information game we all play. We want to be on the right side of it. Good luck in getting on the right side of the curve.
Enough pontificating. Lets all trade more so we don't spend money on cards and trade for like value and build our sets. Here is hoping we all find those PSA 10 1of1's for $1 when going through commons.
Good night all
Barry
<< <i>The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. >>
I'm rooting for the OP to maximize profit and find gems but I think I'll take the under here. Just guessing but I think that sometimes adrenaline and optimism can make 7s look like 9s.
I'd like to thank all of the great human beings on the Collectors Universe sports card message boards for teaching us selfish jerks how to treat people who we have business dealings with. At first I wondered how you could have time for posting messages about anything mundane when you feel such a strong compulsion to teach lazy strangers how to make a bigger profit off of you. I would think that's a 24/7 job. But now I know better. You have spare time because you MAKE time to show selfish people just how awful they really are. You magnificent b@stards are changing the world one scummy baseball card profiteer at a time. Well done, guys. You aren't just message board folk. You are heros. And don't ever let anyone tell you different.
<< <i>Wow this thread has gotten way off topic. Let's all take a break and see if we can lure the OP back so that we can find out what happened. >>
The OP ain't revisiting this thread. However, he has reached a movie deal with HBO to make a series drama about this find.
<< <i>
<< <i>The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. >>
I'm rooting for the OP to maximize profit and find gems but I think I'll take the under here. Just guessing but I think that sometimes adrenaline and optimism can make 7s look like 9s.
I'd like to thank all of the great human beings on the Collectors Universe sports card message boards for teaching us selfish jerks how to treat people who we have business dealings with. At first I wondered how you could have time for posting messages about anything mundane when you feel such a strong compulsion to teach lazy strangers how to make a bigger profit off of you. I would think that's a 24/7 job. But now I know better. You have spare time because you MAKE time to show selfish people just how awful they really are. You magnificent b@stards are changing the world one scummy baseball card profiteer at a time. Well done, guys. You aren't just message board folk. You are heros. And don't ever let anyone tell you different. >>
lol, great post.
Great post from CaliforniaCards as well. Good to know I'm not the only one on here that believes in hard work and capitalism. I wonder if all of these "cardboard heroes" would want to take all of their collections and put them all in a big pot and then redistribute equally among all collectors?
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow this thread has gotten way off topic. Let's all take a break and see if we can lure the OP back so that we can find out what happened. >>
The OP ain't revisiting this thread. However, he has reached a movie deal with HBO to make a series drama about this find. >>
I don't see anything at all wrong with this thread as far as the OP is concerned. The bottom line is if the OP doesn't get the deal which in my opinion is likely the case, then the thread fades away quickly. But if the OP gets the deal, then this thread could reach 1,000 posts with scans of the cards, offers to buy, etc.
eyebone
There's a huge difference between making a profit, and publicly bragging about getting ready to rip a guy off. Whether he is ACTUALLY ripping the guy off is debatable, but the OP has already admitted that he's going to try to. THAT is what doesn't sit well with most of us. While I know it's hard to reason with "your kind", we're not all afraid of making a buck in this hobby like you insinuate. Just not at the expense of our hobby. With your history, you should probably look up the term "scruples".
~ Jim was too ugly to pick up a woman from the bar and too poor to buy any of the Scruples that were out in full force.
The first fly farts.
The second fly says - Hey! Do you mind! I am trying to eat here.
<< <i>Two flies are sitting on a piece of dog crap.
The first fly farts.
The second fly says - Hey! Do you mind! I am trying to eat here. >>