<< <i> Sticksnutzman- since no one else has said it, i'll say it. you are acting like a socialist. do you hang out in card shops and tell little kids not to pay $6 for the Allen & Ginter packs because they are getting ripped off and because someone should stick up for them? Everyone has the right to be responsible for their own well-being. Its no one's else job to do that for them. >>
You know the funny thing is that I had that exact same thought as I was reading back through my earlier posts. That certainly wasn't my intention, but I can definitely see how I came off that way. Money comes and money goes and you gotta get what you can when you can. I understand. The only reason I got fired up is because initially I felt like the old dude with the collection was getting swindled. At this point I don't think that is what the OP intended at all. I think at the end of the day if they can both walk away without thinking that either of them committed robbery then it will be a successful transaction.
do you hang out in card shops and tell little kids not to pay $6 for the Allen & Ginter packs because they are getting ripped off and because someone should stick up for them? Everyone has the right to be responsible for their own well-being. Its no one's else job to do that for them.
This comment has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but yes, I do think it is our responsibility as collectors to enlighten and inform others who are buying cards and participating in the hobby. If a scammer is selling resealed packs or a counterfeit card and trying to profit in that method, I believe that educating those potential buyers is absolutely the right thing to do.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think if tsalems can get this deal, then that's what matters. I brought up thx money and shouldn't have, was just wondering how big a deal this was. This is what I call a wholesale purchase. It doesn't matter how much the guy gets. Opportunities come and go, you have to strike while the iron is hot.
This is not a relationship sale. It's a one stop close. A shot... At a great find and hopefully at a good price.
A relationship sale would require competitive pricing, this is not the case unless there are sales to follow.
I hope you get this at the best price possible. Be fair, be kind, but take care of you and your family first. The better the deal, the better you sleep. A brand new car can sell several thousand below the asking price. There's invoice, employee pricing, dealer hold backs, company kick backs etc, and more. Do you feel bad when you get an amazing deal on a car? I don't. The lower the price the happier I am. Corvette nailed it on the head.
This case has nothing to do with charity. That's a much different situation. If this gentlemen is struggling in his retirement, then I would pay up to help him. Personally I think the collection holders personal situation is what does it for me. If they are loaded or sitting real nice I want the best deal! If they need the help, or can't pay for health insurance, prescriptions, food, shelter, etc, I would pay more in a second, I wouldn't be bothered ifmy profit margin was only 20 or 30 percent. Because I would know I was making a big impact on someone's life. You got to get personal before the deal is done. That's just what I do.
The better off someone is, the more I love to play the game!
To the OP, if this guy was your friend, would you give him the same offer?
I was in this position a couple times. A couple friends had collections full of stuff they had no idea about. Instead of telling them they had crap and offering then 10% of it's value, I told them I would not purchase any of it, and simply educate them on it's potential value. They did what I suggested, and made good money on their childhood collections. They even tossed some coin my way, for being nice. Sure, I missed out on making some easy money at my friend's expense, but I do have my pride and I can still sleep at night.
I don't blame you for doing what you're doing. Business is business. To some people, money is worth more than pride. Flaming on StickNutzman isn't very nice though.
<< <i>If they need the help, or can't pay for health insurance, prescriptions, food, shelter, etc, I would pay more in a second, I wouldn't be bothered ifmy profit margin was only 20 or 30 percent. Because I would know I was making a big impact on someone's life. You got to get personal before the deal is done. That's just what I do. >>
Exactly dude, right on. Though... I don't completely agree with playing Robin Hood on someone who is rich, because what's to stop someone from dealing with you like that if they think you're loaded? Really we don't know the whole situation and shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. But there has to be some reason why he has decided to sell now and it might be because of one of these scenarios. I don't know how the OP will handle it but if it was me I would love to sit down with the guy for a few hours and find out what it was like to amass such a collection, and find out why he's decided to sell now. This is way more substantial than getting a good deal at a card show or on ebay. But just like Jeff said I try to deal with people like I wish they would deal with me. And HOLY CRAP JEFF I JUST NOW REALIZED THAT YOUR AVATAR BLINKS. Freaked me out.
lots and lots of opinions and speculation in this tread.
no way you can factor into the deal that you think all the cards will grade high or factor in psa 9-10 cards in your offer. if you factor in all the ungraded cards and then factor in the quality in ungraded in general, that is where you come up with your price. if you are using average grade prices and offering a low % of what you come up with when you know that it is high grade stuff, that sounds to me like you would be taking advantage of the guy
if you use average grade prices, you know you have high grade stuff overall and you give the guy a better % of the estimate, you both will be happy.
I was buying from a local guy where he would bring a bag of stuff every time we met. sometimes I would be higher than he was expecting , sometimes lower but every time we got the deal done and both walked away happy. the difference was that when he bought a group that was in higher grade , I gave him a better split knowing I would get some good surprises. and when it was not as strong , I went with a lower split compensating me for my work but figuring there wasn't much to get a break on. I made a decent return on the expectations and got a few surprised in grading that boosted my overall profits.
finally given the quantity of what you are buying , whatever you come up with as an estimate, you will probably be low anyway so no reason to put the screws to the guy in negotiations
I would hope the gentleman would be getting a few offers not just one. I wonder how many here would like to know who the gentleman is so they could make a better offer. More often than not people have an exaggerated estimate of the value of their junk.
No successful businessman got to where they are at by overpaying for stuff or not taking advantage of good deals/situations along the way.
That all depends on how you define taking advantage. I am a successful business owner and I don't take advantage of people or situations. You can make a great living not trying to be a hustler.
Paying $5000 for a collection from someone that doesn't realize what they have and turning it around for $20k because you know about grading for run of the mill star cards and not feeling like you took advantage of them is wrong in my book. However for some people in the end all that matters is making a buck.
Survival of the fittest, the American way, or just business
Only since greed replaced what it meant to be an American.
Obviously the original poster should do whatever he likes, you only answer to yourself in the end. It definitely sounds like a great opportunity. Cheers,
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>No successful businessman got to where they are at by overpaying for stuff or not taking advantage of good deals/situations along the way.
That all depends on how you define taking advantage. I am a successful business owner and I don't take advantage of people or situations. You can make a great living not trying to be a hustler.
Paying $5000 for a collection from someone that doesn't realize what they have and turning it around for $20k because you know about grading for run of the mill star cards and not feeling like you took advantage of them is wrong in my book. However for some people in the end all that matters is making a buck.
Survival of the fittest, the American way, or just business
Only since greed replaced what it meant to be an American.
Obviously the original poster should do whatever he likes, you only answer to yourself in the end. It definitely sounds like a great opportunity. Cheers,
Robb >>
I never said take advantage of people did I? I am the most honest buyer and seller I know, in all of my businesses. I also give a TON of money to charity. If the seller needed money to live on then I'd most likely give. Hell, I've given to a lot of charities on this very board. I'm not sure what kind of business you own, but do you not make a profit off of people? I'm guessing you do, otherwise it wouldn't be successful.
1. Offering 4K is a f*ing joke - offer him 10K at least...either way in my opinion based on very little information, is you ain't gonna get it for 4K or 10K. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to congratulate ya.
2. If I was in your shoes I would take the possible "sure thing"...offer to sell the cards for him on consignment say for around 15% commission or whatever ya come up with, explain to him how grading works and then you will build his trust, and you will do the work and expense to get the cards PSA graded to achieve maximum value, and sell them on ebay whereby the guy can see his cards selling and exactly what they sell for. If you don't offer it, someone else may, and then you won't get nothing because he will be hissed that you didn't explain grading to him in the first place.
If someone wants to sell me their $100,000 card collection, house, cars, widgets, whatever for $5000 then I'm gonna offer them $4000 and go from there, period.
That in my book is taking advantage of a person not a "situation" especially if that person is unaware, for whatever reason, of the true value of what they are selling. In the end, for me, there is a difference between finding odd ball or low pop cards that you grade for a substantial profit versus purchasing star power collections from someone that doesn't know how big a difference grading can make. I believe in negotiating on a level playing field and while it has certainly cost me profits I've never once regretted it.
nobody has answered my question about buying their house yet
Also, I believe in giving to charity because I WANT to, not because someone or some government tells me I HAVE to because I'm more successful or have more money than someone that may be less fortunate.
I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. I guess, in this way of thinking, people that pay high prices for ridiculous BIN's when they could get better deals by shopping around, should also be educated. In this way of thinking, nobody or no business would ever make a profit. Socialism fever, catch it.
<< <i>nobody has answered my question about buying their house yet
Also, I believe in giving to charity because I WANT to, not because someone or some government tells me I HAVE to because I'm more successful or have more money than someone that may be less fortunate.
I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. I guess, in this way of thinking, people that pay high prices for ridiculous BIN's when they could get better deals by shopping around, should also be educated. In this way of thinking, nobody or no business would ever make a profit. Socialism fever, catch it. >>
Buying a house is not a hobby. Collecting baseball cards is. No one lives in a graded slab.
Part of the love for collectors is to meet others that have the same interest. Looking out for those with the same interests is far from socialism.
As with all things on this board, you look at it only as a business. I'm sure you have no emotional attachment to anything in your possession, and that the right offer could buy your dog.
What most are pointing out is that it is much more than a business to most of us. We have also seen and heard more than enough about how you operate in your life on this board. I think we can be spared the "charitable contributions" angle you seem to be pushing here.
The best pitch to start a hitter off with is always strike one.
When buying I will generally try and double my money, so I'll usually offer around 40% of what I think I can get for it and leave the 10% extra as wiggle room for negotiating. Sounds like this collection is somewhere in the $15k range, so I'd offer in the neighborhood of 6k and go from there.
There's also an element of gamble to a collection like this versus one that's all mid-grade. If you think there's a handful of big cards that could 9 you should factor that in to your highest buy price, but not necessarily into your initial offer since nothing is a given. I do not believe in intentionally throwing out lowball offers, but if they initiate contact and throw out a price first I think it's fair game. This guy is clearly waiting for the OP to make an offer so that's not gonna happen. From what's described I think 3-4k is a lowball offer.
As mentioned before, I would also offer to consign if that's the direction he wants to go in but the seller should understand that the process of grading, listing, shipping, etc... will take time and not everybody wants to wait around 3-6 months for their money.
I'll pose this question to all of you. When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
OK I'll bite- The fundamental difference here is that the seller determined a price on their own. It's a very different thing to accept a seller's asking price of 10% of market value than it is to offer 10% of market value and try and convince them it's a strong offer. A few months ago I bought a collection listed on BST for $500 that I ended up selling for $8k+. It was a collection and I didn't know exactly what I was getting, but I knew it was worth a lot more than $500. Since the seller determined the price and listed it, I simply accepted it knowing that 9 other people would've bought it and flipped it had I not. It's a completely different thing if he listed it for $1,000 and I offered him $500 knowing I could get $8k for it. If you can't see there's a difference there I don't know what to tell you.
nobody has answered my question about buying their house yet
I don't think you can equate offering a lower price for a home (especially since most sellers inflate their asking price because they expect that to happen) with offering a price on a 50s and 60s baseball card collection where the seller has really no idea about market value, hasn't even established an asking price, knows anything the concept of card grading or its effect on potential value and has a price guide a decade old. That analogy is just not analogous, IMO..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
15 percent seems like a good price if you were just selling the collection. Sorting, spending to grade, listing, shipping etc for a couple grand off a 15k collection? No thanks. If it is 15k then paying 5k seems reasonable. Another 5k is your time and money spent to grade. That leaves 5k profit.
But to get to 5k, you can't start at 5k...
Like someone said, in the end you have to live with the decision and offer/ final price. All this talk is about a maybe. This discussion becomes relevant if it occurs.
Good luck, I hope you get it, and I wouldn't follow up with what you do. Either way you will get scrutinized for low balling or overpaying. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't please anyone but yourself. It's your relationship with the man up there.
Good luck, I hope you get it, and I wouldn't follow up with what you do. Either way you will get scrutinized for low balling or overpaying. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't please anyone but yourself. It's your relationship with the man up there.
Amen.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What card shops offer 50% on the dollar? All I ever see is 25% on the dollar. Regardless, the cool part about that is, the card shop is telling you what the value is, and are up front about offering their percentage for it.
Card collecting... some do it for the hobby, and some do it as a business. Can't fault either.
nobody has answered my question about buying their house yet Also, I believe in giving to charity because I WANT to, not because someone or some government tells me I HAVE to because I'm more successful or have more money than someone that may be less fortunate. I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. I guess, in this way of thinking, people that pay high prices for ridiculous BIN's when they could get better deals by shopping around, should also be educated. In this way of thinking, nobody or no business would ever make a profit. Socialism fever, catch it.
Not sure why I am bothering but education != socialism. Sadly these discussions always seem to degenerate because folks start projecting the discussion at hand to unrelated and/or tangential points in order to elicit some sort of response.
Your house example is not an apples to apples comparison, the potential for asymmetric information is much lower in a home sale transaction. In fact many times it is the buyer that knows less about the home than the seller.
When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
If they would take 10% of what it was worth I would tell them the actual value and then figure out why they only wanted 10%. I've had multiple situations where someone has offered my company their contracting services at too low a rate. Each time I have countered with what I was originally willing to pay them, in some cases 50% more than they asked for. I've done this with contractors I want to maintain a long term relationship with as well as those I would never hire again.
For whatever reason you seem to link not taking advantage of someone/situation to not negotiating (ie offering less than the asking price). There is nothing wrong with negotiation. I've purchased two homes, I offered more than the asking price on the first home because I wanted it and I knew there would be multiple offers. I offered less on my second home because the housing market was tanking and the home was priced based on an older appraisal. I ended up buying both homes.
Not 100% sure where the "no profits" comment is coming from. You can negotiate a profit into a deal, very few of us would have jobs if there wasn't a place for making a profit in transactions. I may be a somewhat altruistic businessman but I negotiate a margin into most of my deals, occasionally I have deals where I break even or lose money so I can keep the folks that work for me busy/employed. I just make sure that margin is something I think is fair based on how I felt when I was a contractor.
Lowball offerers can be aggravating but I think to claim/imply that the act of low-balling is unethical is quite a stretch imo.
This collection owner can spend a couple hours of his time to research and get a much more accurate sense of what this collection is worth. He is choosing not to do that, or he isn't doing it very well. Why is that anyone else's problem? If we all had to baby everyone before they made a decision we'd have no time for anything else.
Treat the man like a grown up. Make him an offer and give him a chance to accept or tell you to piss off (or something in between).
<< <i>When buying I will generally try and double my money, so I'll usually offer around 40% of what I think I can get for it and leave the 10% extra as wiggle room for negotiating. Sounds like this collection is somewhere in the $15k range, so I'd offer in the neighborhood of 6k and go from there.
There's also an element of gamble to a collection like this versus one that's all mid-grade. If you think there's a handful of big cards that could 9 you should factor that in to your highest buy price, but not necessarily into your initial offer since nothing is a given. I do not believe in intentionally throwing out lowball offers, but if they initiate contact and throw out a price first I think it's fair game. This guy is clearly waiting for the OP to make an offer so that's not gonna happen. From what's described I think 3-4k is a lowball offer.
As mentioned before, I would also offer to consign if that's the direction he wants to go in but the seller should understand that the process of grading, listing, shipping, etc... will take time and not everybody wants to wait around 3-6 months for their money. >>
Seems to me that the total value figure of 15K is way too low based on the grading presumptions of the OP...so I guess perhaps the 15K figure guestimate is based on the OP overestimatiing the potential grades of the cards, which I think might not be a bad presumption after giving it some thought.
I've been in that situation when initially looking at a raw bunch of cards and ya get excited over it, then ya come back and look at it a day or so later, or perhaps a few hours later, and it's not quite as good as ya remembered it. Suddenly you're seeing those wrinkles and creases ya didn't see the first time, and those 9's or 10's that ya originally thought possible, ya look at them under a loupe and suddenly they turn into 8's, 7's and 6's.
Got there with my son and he let us in and we sat down in his dining room where all the boxes were. 1st box he handed me were 1962's. He had probably 600-800 singles. He did not have sets. The singles in this box were broken down into 100's. Everything was there from Mantles, koufax, Maris, Clemente and multiples on everyone! Overall grade had a big range from vg/ex to some nrmt. I expected this on the 1962's with the brown borders. I did see a couple Witt, 1 may have a shot at a 8?!
The next 2 boxes I looked at were all mixed with 1961's,1962's and 61/62 Post cards. Ive never seen so many Post cards in my life! Post cards, mixed condition, didnt really pay much attention to those but he did have all the stars and multiples inc Mantle. The 1961's and 62 Topps in these 2 boxes were just mixed and in no order. Again lots of star power Condition anywhere from vg/ex to some nrmt. I was taking notes as I went along because we went into this knowing a deal would not be completed today. Today we agreed for me to look things over to get an idea what he had. On the phone he said he wasnt sure he was ready to sell but after talking with him today, I think he is ready and willing. Whats holding this deal right now, is he is going away for 2 weeks and when he gets back, he said he will be calling me. Anyways, here are some of the star cards I seen with qty.. 1961 topps yaz-2, koufaz-9, banks--2,musial-2, Marichal-2, clemente-4, mantle 1962 topps koufax-4, maris 6, musial 4, clemente 4, mathews 7, banks 4, brook robinson 6, frank robinson 5, spahn 4 g.perry, b.williams 5, mantle 2, mantle #318 5, aaron 5, mantle allstar 2, Also, I went through 2 more mixed boxes later and found many more of these cards and stopped adding to those totals!!!!
At this point I was excited but didnt see the high grade stuff I had hoped for until I got the box of 1963's in front of me. IM not sure but he may have seen my jaw drop! These cards are the nicest I have seen and I have handled many 1963's over the years. He had high numbers, semi high numbers as well. The Rose was sweeeeet! He had the Stargell a bit o/c. All the stars were there and these cards are pack fresh, clemente,banks,koufax,mantle was off in condition,2 yaz,mccovey,aaron it goes on and on and on. 1963 Topps football looked the same. Many cards had the gum dust and were pack fresh! Again, loaded with stars and I see many 9's! 1964's and 65's looked the same as the 63's, pack fresh in good qty loaded with stars. Cards were well centered and I see some 10's here for sure!
Other stuff of note that he had...
1965 topps embossed cards, pack fresh Topps coind, he had a good amount of these he had a box full of 50's stuff. 1951 topps blue and redbacks 30-40 1952 topps cards for the most part looked exmt. he had a 1952 bowman willie mays that looked vg (o/c with a bit corner wear) 1953-55 dorman mickey mantle postcard!
he had 2-3 hundred 1963 fleers. there were small amounts of 1958 and 59 topps with nothing big. He did have around 20-30 1957 topps that looked unreal pack fresh!
all years above, there were loads of all star cards,leader cards etc that had mantle, mays,koufax aaron etc (multiples!)
After I was done, I told him I was very interested in buying his collection and hoped we could talk about when he gets back but I wanted to make sure he was ready to sell. He said yes when he returns. He said he will call me when he gets back. The conversation and the time went by well. I have my fingers crossed on this because those 63,64 and 65's graded should bring in some huge money! >>
Regarding my previous post...I still say, even taking into account the possibility of the cards maybe not looking as good the second time around, I'd still offer the guy at least 10K if he doesn't wish to do a consignment deal.
<< <i>I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. . >>
I understand your point that everyone should educate themselves on the value of their own possessions, and that it's not someone's elses responsibility to do so, but let's say you have an old antique that you take to the dealer, and she tells you of how wonderful it is, and offers you $1,000 for it, and you are so happy to get that grand for a literal piece of junk, and then you find out that she sold this item for $36,000 at auction the next month. Do you wish that the antique dealer would have told you that she could get at least $25k at auction and she'd like to offer you $15k ? Or are you still happy with your $1,000 dollars ?
BTW, Fergie23, I like the way you do business. My dad's business grew over a thirty year period, the company share price going from twenty five to four hundred over that time frame, and it was all done on small margins and lots of honest handshakes. Good luck to you.
<< <i>I'll pose this question to all of you. When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
OK I'll bite- The fundamental difference here is that the seller determined a price on their own. It's a very different thing to accept a seller's asking price of 10% of market value than it is to offer 10% of market value and try and convince them it's a strong offer. A few months ago I bought a collection listed on BST for $500 that I ended up selling for $8k+. It was a collection and I didn't know exactly what I was getting, but I knew it was worth a lot more than $500. Since the seller determined the price and listed it, I simply accepted it knowing that 9 other people would've bought it and flipped it had I not. It's a completely different thing if he listed it for $1,000 and I offered him $500 knowing I could get $8k for it. If you can't see there's a difference there I don't know what to tell you. >>
I think it's also different if you're being approached as a professional and the seller is seeking advice regarding the value. If a real estate agent (similar to a card dealer) were approached with a house, quoted a value that was a small fraction of the actual value, and then bought it and flipped it....well, that would probably violate a few laws.
With that said, obviously you don't pay top dollar. You figure out the lot's value, the value of your time, and offer accordingly. I also would not factor grading into anything. They're not graded until they're in the slab. If a collection included a lot of low dollar items, I would pay a very low percentage for those.
I think at this point the OP has cut his losses and won't be back to let us know the outcome, but this thread has definitely been enlightening to see each person's view of doing business in the hobby. It all comes down to how you want the future to go. You can do a transaction with someone, buy their collection and never talk to them again. OR... you can strike up a friendship with someone, help them out, explain to them how grading works and how the hobby has changed, and in the end you both end up with more than you had. And then, maybe a few months down the line, the guy calls you up and lets you know that a friend of his heard about what you did for him, and wants your help selling his 10 complete sets of 1952 Topps. And then another friend finds out that his other 2 friends "know a guy" that can get them good money on their collections... for a fee, of course. It's always good to be "the guy" that people can trust. I realize this is taking it to absurd limits... but is it really that crazy considering the collection that the OP found? Doing good usually gets repaid with more good. Always looking out for yourself usually leads to losing what you're holding on to.
<< <i>I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. . >>
I understand your point that everyone should educate themselves on the value of their own possessions, and that it's not someone's elses responsibility to do so, but let's say you have an old antique that you take to the dealer, and she tells you of how wonderful it is, and offers you $1,000 for it, and you are so happy to get that grand for a literal piece of junk, and then you find out that she sold this item for $36,000 at auction the next month. Do you wish that the antique dealer would have told you that she could get at least $25k at auction and she'd like to offer you $15k ? Or are you still happy with your $1,000 dollars ? >>
If I sell something for $1000 that is worth $36,000 then it's my own fault for not educating myself as to the value of the item and kudos to the lady for making a good deal off of my laziness or lack of knowledge.
<< <i>I'll pose this question to all of you. When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
OK I'll bite- The fundamental difference here is that the seller determined a price on their own. It's a very different thing to accept a seller's asking price of 10% of market value than it is to offer 10% of market value and try and convince them it's a strong offer. A few months ago I bought a collection listed on BST for $500 that I ended up selling for $8k+. It was a collection and I didn't know exactly what I was getting, but I knew it was worth a lot more than $500. Since the seller determined the price and listed it, I simply accepted it knowing that 9 other people would've bought it and flipped it had I not. It's a completely different thing if he listed it for $1,000 and I offered him $500 knowing I could get $8k for it. If you can't see there's a difference there I don't know what to tell you. >>
and you didn't split part of that huge profit with the seller who obviously didn't know what they had? Shame on you.
<< <i>When buying I will generally try and double my money, so I'll usually offer around 40% of what I think I can get for it and leave the 10% extra as wiggle room for negotiating. Sounds like this collection is somewhere in the $15k range, so I'd offer in the neighborhood of 6k and go from there.
There's also an element of gamble to a collection like this versus one that's all mid-grade. If you think there's a handful of big cards that could 9 you should factor that in to your highest buy price, but not necessarily into your initial offer since nothing is a given. I do not believe in intentionally throwing out lowball offers, but if they initiate contact and throw out a price first I think it's fair game. This guy is clearly waiting for the OP to make an offer so that's not gonna happen. From what's described I think 3-4k is a lowball offer.
As mentioned before, I would also offer to consign if that's the direction he wants to go in but the seller should understand that the process of grading, listing, shipping, etc... will take time and not everybody wants to wait around 3-6 months for their money. >>
This post makes quite a bit of sense to me as this is how I have done business in the past on a smaller level though and usually for friends and other people know to me.
No one has taken the time to sit down and figure out the value of the cards the OP mentioned, and I think that is a shame because without that information everyone is speculating and not using facts in their arguments.
Since none of us except the OP has seen the cards, and therefore don't know exact condition (OP said cards ranged vg to nmmt), this is how I am going to approximate it: high column of Beckett, then at the end figure that on eBay (where I assume the OP is going to sell everything), the card would sell for 20% to 50% depending on condition. I don't think it's fair to think about what grades some cards could bring in while calculating value because, as we all know, potential 9's can come back as 6's or 7's. In the list I am going to put Beckett, and the end I will put percentages. If anyone thinks the percentages are off, you can re-use my numbers to use your own.
1962 Topps Singles (said 600-800, so figure 700) in vgex to nmmt: $5 for a common low number, so $3,500 1961/1962 Post cards: quantity not specified, so not sure
1962 Topps Koufax (4): $400 Maris (6): $3000 Musial (4): $400 Clemente (4): $800 Mathews (7): $280 Banks (4): $200 Brooks Robinson (6): $300 Frank Robinson (5): $250 Spahn (4): $160 Perry: $80 Billy Williams (5): $150 Mantle (2): $1200 Mantle IA (5): $150 Aaron (5): $750 Mantle AS (2): $400
1963 Topps Rose RC: $1000 Stargell RC: $120 Clemente: $250 Banks: $100 Koufax: $150 Mantle (OP said it was off-condition, so figure 50% of Beckett): $300 Yaz (2): $80 McCovey: $100 Aaron: $200
1952 Topps (30-40 commons, so figure 35): $1400
1951 Bowman Mays (OP said it was O/C with corner wear, so figure 80% of Beckett): $1200
1953-55 Dorman Mickey Mantle (I don't have my big book right now, so there is one PSA 8 on eBay asking $1,300, so I'm guessing): $1000
1962 Topps Football, 300 commons in vgex condition (figure 40% of book): $480 Ditka RC vgex (40% of book): $120
1964 Topps Coins 100-150, so figure 125 commons: $500
1965 Topps Embossed 50 commons: $100
1962 Bazooka Mickey Mantle: I don't have my big book, but one sold on eBay for $70, so use that
Mecca Lake/Wallace: I don't have my big book, but one did not sell for $94, so let's guess at $100 for now
Now keep in mind that the above is an incomplete list in that I don't know how many other star cards and commons are in this collection AND I don't know condition. However, most of the cards that are not in the above list probably don't matter that much in the price because they are commons and would only have value if they come back in a high grade. Therefore, since we cannot figure estimated grades into the collection's value, the cards are of negligible value for these purposes.
The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. If the cards sold for 50% of Beckett, the OP would get $16,377.50 before fees. If the cards sold for 20% of book, the OP would get $6,551 before fees. If the seller used auctions rather than fixed price listings, after you combine the listing fee, FVF, Paypal fees, and shipping, let's say fees would be 15%, so the range would become $5,568.35 to $13,920.88.
Then, figure in grading fees. Let's say the OP grades 500 cards, most of which are commons, so we'll use a bulk grading price (actual grading fees would be higher for star cards, so keep that in mind). Per card fee would be $6, so before you get into shipping both ways for PSA, grading fees would be another $3,000. You might get some winners that would increase the total value of the collection, but you'd probably get plenty of losers and you'd be out the $6 per card.
<< <i>No one has taken the time to sit down and figure out the value of the cards the OP mentioned, and I think that is a shame because without that information everyone is speculating and not using facts in their arguments.
Since none of us except the OP has seen the cards, and therefore don't know exact condition (OP said cards ranged vg to nmmt), this is how I am going to approximate it: high column of Beckett, then at the end figure that on eBay (where I assume the OP is going to sell everything), the card would sell for 20% to 50% depending on condition. I don't think it's fair to think about what grades some cards could bring in while calculating value because, as we all know, potential 9's can come back as 6's or 7's. In the list I am going to put Beckett, and the end I will put percentages. If anyone thinks the percentages are off, you can re-use my numbers to use your own.
1962 Topps Singles (said 600-800, so figure 700) in vgex to nmmt: $5 for a common low number, so $3,500 1961/1962 Post cards: quantity not specified, so not sure
1962 Topps Koufax (4): $400 Maris (6): $3000 Musial (4): $400 Clemente (4): $800 Mathews (7): $280 Banks (4): $200 Brooks Robinson (6): $300 Frank Robinson (5): $250 Spahn (4): $160 Perry: $80 Billy Williams (5): $150 Mantle (2): $1200 Mantle IA (5): $150 Aaron (5): $750 Mantle AS (2): $400
1963 Topps Rose RC: $1000 Stargell RC: $120 Clemente: $250 Banks: $100 Koufax: $150 Mantle (OP said it was off-condition, so figure 50% of Beckett): $300 Yaz (2): $80 McCovey: $100 Aaron: $200
1952 Topps (30-40 commons, so figure 35): $1400
1951 Bowman Mays (OP said it was O/C with corner wear, so figure 80% of Beckett): $1200
1953-55 Dorman Mickey Mantle (I don't have my big book right now, so there is one PSA 8 on eBay asking $1,300, so I'm guessing): $1000
1962 Topps Football, 300 commons in vgex condition (figure 40% of book): $480 Ditka RC vgex (40% of book): $120
1964 Topps Coins 100-150, so figure 125 commons: $500
1965 Topps Embossed 50 commons: $100
1962 Bazooka Mickey Mantle: I don't have my big book, but one sold on eBay for $70, so use that
Mecca Lake/Wallace: I don't have my big book, but one did not sell for $94, so let's guess at $100 for now
Now keep in mind that the above is an incomplete list in that I don't know how many other star cards and commons are in this collection AND I don't know condition. However, most of the cards that are not in the above list probably don't matter that much in the price because they are commons and would only have value if they come back in a high grade. Therefore, since we cannot figure estimated grades into the collection's value, the cards are of negligible value for these purposes.
The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. If the cards sold for 50% of Beckett, the OP would get $16,377.50 before fees. If the cards sold for 20% of book, the OP would get $6,551 before fees. If the seller used auctions rather than fixed price listings, after you combine the listing fee, FVF, Paypal fees, and shipping, let's say fees would be 15%, so the range would become $5,568.35 to $13,920.88.
Then, figure in grading fees. Let's say the OP grades 500 cards, most of which are commons, so we'll use a bulk grading price (actual grading fees would be higher for star cards, so keep that in mind). Per card fee would be $6, so before you get into shipping both ways for PSA, grading fees would be another $600. You might get some winners that would increase the total value of the collection, but you'd probably get plenty of losers and you'd be out the $6 per card.
Now, with all of that info, discuss. >>
It is smart, and good business to spend however long it takes, in front of the seller, to individually value each card or lot, and figure up a total, and then make an offer based on that - most smart buyers do it that way in situations such as this...so your premise of figuring the cards and lots individually I agree with. However I do disagree with a number of your values based on what the OP stated.....
.....but in any event, your post is definitely the post of the day for effort alone.
I don't think i've ever seen so many member "lights on" in a thread on Monday morning. I know I'm drooling over some of the items the OP mentioned. I hope the OP is successful so maybe I can have a shot at buying the items I'm drooling over. LOL
and you didn't split part of that huge profit with the seller who obviously didn't know what they had? Shame on you.
Actually I did, I sent the guy back a little extra since the stuff sold for more than I thought it would. The kicker was the guy knew the stuff would sell for a lot, it was just a lot of individual cards and he just wanted to be rid of them. He even followed the auctions I had on ebay and congratulated me on doing well with them. It was a case where an educated seller who was reasonably well off decided he wanted to be rid of everything so he fire-saled it. His biggest issue was that it was so much stuff he needed someone to come pick it up, which nobody else on the boards bothered to do. So the motivation he used to get someone out there was to sell it at a price where someone like me couldn't resist. He'd been collecting a particular player for the last 20 years so he knew what the stuff was worth, he just didn't want to be bothered with it anymore.
Comments
As for sticknutzman...he sounds like a man with alot of integrity. In the game to enjoy the hobby and not profit from it. I like him.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i> Sticksnutzman- since no one else has said it, i'll say it. you are acting like a socialist. do you hang out in card shops and tell little kids not to pay $6 for the Allen & Ginter packs because they are getting ripped off and because someone should stick up for them? Everyone has the right to be responsible for their own well-being. Its no one's else job to do that for them. >>
You know the funny thing is that I had that exact same thought as I was reading back through my earlier posts. That certainly wasn't my intention, but I can definitely see how I came off that way. Money comes and money goes and you gotta get what you can when you can. I understand. The only reason I got fired up is because initially I felt like the old dude with the collection was getting swindled. At this point I don't think that is what the OP intended at all. I think at the end of the day if they can both walk away without thinking that either of them committed robbery then it will be a successful transaction.
For Sale on eBay
This comment has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but yes, I do think it is our responsibility as collectors to enlighten and inform others who are buying cards and participating in the hobby. If a scammer is selling resealed packs or a counterfeit card and trying to profit in that method, I believe that educating those potential buyers is absolutely the right thing to do.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This is not a relationship sale. It's a one stop close. A shot... At a great find and hopefully at a good price.
A relationship sale would require competitive pricing, this is not the case unless there are sales to follow.
I hope you get this at the best price possible. Be fair, be kind, but take care of you and your family first. The better the deal, the better you sleep. A brand new car can sell several thousand below the asking price. There's invoice, employee pricing, dealer hold backs, company kick backs etc, and more. Do you feel bad when you get an amazing deal on a car? I don't. The lower the price the happier I am. Corvette nailed it on the head.
This case has nothing to do with charity. That's a much different situation. If this gentlemen is struggling in his retirement, then I would pay up to help him. Personally I think the collection holders personal situation is what does it for me. If they are loaded or sitting real nice I want the best deal! If they need the help, or can't pay for health insurance, prescriptions, food, shelter, etc, I would pay more in a second, I wouldn't be bothered ifmy profit margin was only 20 or 30 percent. Because I would know I was making a big impact on someone's life. You got to get personal before the deal is done. That's just what I do.
The better off someone is, the more I love to play the game!
"Live everyday, don't throw it away"
I was in this position a couple times. A couple friends had collections full of stuff they had no idea about. Instead of telling them they had crap and offering then 10% of it's value, I told them I would not purchase any of it, and simply educate them on it's potential value. They did what I suggested, and made good money on their childhood collections. They even tossed some coin my way, for being nice. Sure, I missed out on making some easy money at my friend's expense, but I do have my pride and I can still sleep at night.
I don't blame you for doing what you're doing. Business is business. To some people, money is worth more than pride. Flaming on StickNutzman isn't very nice though.
<< <i>If they need the help, or can't pay for health insurance, prescriptions, food, shelter, etc, I would pay more in a second, I wouldn't be bothered ifmy profit margin was only 20 or 30 percent. Because I would know I was making a big impact on someone's life. You got to get personal before the deal is done. That's just what I do. >>
Exactly dude, right on. Though... I don't completely agree with playing Robin Hood on someone who is rich, because what's to stop someone from dealing with you like that if they think you're loaded? Really we don't know the whole situation and shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. But there has to be some reason why he has decided to sell now and it might be because of one of these scenarios. I don't know how the OP will handle it but if it was me I would love to sit down with the guy for a few hours and find out what it was like to amass such a collection, and find out why he's decided to sell now. This is way more substantial than getting a good deal at a card show or on ebay. But just like Jeff said I try to deal with people like I wish they would deal with me. And HOLY CRAP JEFF I JUST NOW REALIZED THAT YOUR AVATAR BLINKS. Freaked me out.
For Sale on eBay
no way you can factor into the deal that you think all the cards will grade high or factor in psa 9-10 cards in your offer. if you factor in all the ungraded cards and then factor in the quality in ungraded in general, that is where you come up with your price. if you are using average grade prices and offering a low % of what you come up with when you know that it is high grade stuff, that sounds to me like you would be taking advantage of the guy
if you use average grade prices, you know you have high grade stuff overall and you give the guy a better % of the estimate, you both will be happy.
I was buying from a local guy where he would bring a bag of stuff every time we met. sometimes I would be higher than he was expecting , sometimes lower but every time we got the deal done and both walked away happy. the difference was that when he bought a group that was in higher grade , I gave him a better split knowing I would get some good surprises. and when it was not as strong , I went with a lower split compensating me for my work but figuring there wasn't much to get a break on. I made a decent return on the expectations and got a few surprised in grading that boosted my overall profits.
finally given the quantity of what you are buying , whatever you come up with as an estimate, you will probably be low anyway so no reason to put the screws to the guy in negotiations
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>tsalems...good luck in your pursuit! I hope it works out well for you and the seller. >>
yep.
That all depends on how you define taking advantage. I am a successful business owner and I don't take advantage of people or situations. You can make a great living not trying to be a hustler.
Paying $5000 for a collection from someone that doesn't realize what they have and turning it around for $20k because you know about grading for run of the mill star cards and not feeling like you took advantage of them is wrong in my book. However for some people in the end all that matters is making a buck.
Survival of the fittest, the American way, or just business
Only since greed replaced what it meant to be an American.
Obviously the original poster should do whatever he likes, you only answer to yourself in the end. It definitely sounds like a great opportunity.
Cheers,
Robb
Sometimes a nice little trade will work! A used car or boat, some furniture and with some cash too!
A fair deal? One never know's? The OP buys & he may be 'sitting on those cards' for the next 5 years? (and pay $2500 in storage fees like me!)
Good luck!
rd
P.S. Your deal needs to make sense to the seller!
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>No successful businessman got to where they are at by overpaying for stuff or not taking advantage of good deals/situations along the way.
That all depends on how you define taking advantage. I am a successful business owner and I don't take advantage of people or situations. You can make a great living not trying to be a hustler.
Paying $5000 for a collection from someone that doesn't realize what they have and turning it around for $20k because you know about grading for run of the mill star cards and not feeling like you took advantage of them is wrong in my book. However for some people in the end all that matters is making a buck.
Survival of the fittest, the American way, or just business
Only since greed replaced what it meant to be an American.
Obviously the original poster should do whatever he likes, you only answer to yourself in the end. It definitely sounds like a great opportunity.
Cheers,
Robb >>
I never said take advantage of people did I? I am the most honest buyer and seller I know, in all of my businesses. I also give a TON of money to charity. If the seller needed money to live on then I'd most likely give. Hell, I've given to a lot of charities on this very board. I'm not sure what kind of business you own, but do you not make a profit off of people? I'm guessing you do, otherwise it wouldn't be successful.
lol
1. Offering 4K is a f*ing joke - offer him 10K at least...either way in my opinion based on very little information, is you ain't gonna get it for 4K or 10K. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to congratulate ya.
2. If I was in your shoes I would take the possible "sure thing"...offer to sell the cards for him on consignment say for around 15% commission or whatever ya come up with, explain to him how grading works and then you will build his trust, and you will do the work and expense to get the cards PSA graded to achieve maximum value, and sell them on ebay whereby the guy can see his cards selling and exactly what they sell for. If you don't offer it, someone else may, and then you won't get nothing because he will be hissed that you didn't explain grading to him in the first place.
That in my book is taking advantage of a person not a "situation" especially if that person is unaware, for whatever reason, of the true value of what they are selling. In the end, for me, there is a difference between finding odd ball or low pop cards that you grade for a substantial profit versus purchasing star power collections from someone that doesn't know how big a difference grading can make. I believe in negotiating on a level playing field and while it has certainly cost me profits I've never once regretted it.
It is great that you give to charity.
Cheers,
Robb
Also, I believe in giving to charity because I WANT to, not because someone or some government tells me I HAVE to because I'm more successful or have more money than someone that may be less fortunate.
I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. I guess, in this way of thinking, people that pay high prices for ridiculous BIN's when they could get better deals by shopping around, should also be educated. In this way of thinking, nobody or no business would ever make a profit. Socialism fever, catch it.
<< <i>nobody has answered my question about buying their house yet
Also, I believe in giving to charity because I WANT to, not because someone or some government tells me I HAVE to because I'm more successful or have more money than someone that may be less fortunate.
I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. I guess, in this way of thinking, people that pay high prices for ridiculous BIN's when they could get better deals by shopping around, should also be educated. In this way of thinking, nobody or no business would ever make a profit. Socialism fever, catch it. >>
Buying a house is not a hobby. Collecting baseball cards is. No one lives in a graded slab.
Part of the love for collectors is to meet others that have the same interest. Looking out for those with the same interests is far from socialism.
As with all things on this board, you look at it only as a business. I'm sure you have no emotional attachment to anything in your possession, and that the right offer could buy your dog.
What most are pointing out is that it is much more than a business to most of us. We have also seen and heard more than enough about how you operate in your life on this board. I think we can be spared the "charitable contributions" angle you seem to be pushing here.
There's also an element of gamble to a collection like this versus one that's all mid-grade. If you think there's a handful of big cards that could 9 you should factor that in to your highest buy price, but not necessarily into your initial offer since nothing is a given. I do not believe in intentionally throwing out lowball offers, but if they initiate contact and throw out a price first I think it's fair game. This guy is clearly waiting for the OP to make an offer so that's not gonna happen. From what's described I think 3-4k is a lowball offer.
As mentioned before, I would also offer to consign if that's the direction he wants to go in but the seller should understand that the process of grading, listing, shipping, etc... will take time and not everybody wants to wait around 3-6 months for their money.
OK I'll bite- The fundamental difference here is that the seller determined a price on their own. It's a very different thing to accept a seller's asking price of 10% of market value than it is to offer 10% of market value and try and convince them it's a strong offer. A few months ago I bought a collection listed on BST for $500 that I ended up selling for $8k+. It was a collection and I didn't know exactly what I was getting, but I knew it was worth a lot more than $500. Since the seller determined the price and listed it, I simply accepted it knowing that 9 other people would've bought it and flipped it had I not. It's a completely different thing if he listed it for $1,000 and I offered him $500 knowing I could get $8k for it. If you can't see there's a difference there I don't know what to tell you.
I don't think you can equate offering a lower price for a home (especially since most sellers inflate their asking price because they expect that to happen) with offering a price on a 50s and 60s baseball card collection where the seller has really no idea about market value, hasn't even established an asking price, knows anything the concept of card grading or its effect on potential value and has a price guide a decade old. That analogy is just not analogous, IMO..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But to get to 5k, you can't start at 5k...
Like someone said, in the end you have to live with the decision and offer/ final price. All this talk is about a maybe. This discussion becomes relevant if it occurs.
Good luck, I hope you get it, and I wouldn't follow up with what you do. Either way you will get scrutinized for low balling or overpaying. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't please anyone but yourself. It's your relationship with the man up there.
"Live everyday, don't throw it away"
Amen.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Card collecting... some do it for the hobby, and some do it as a business. Can't fault either.
Not sure why I am bothering but education != socialism. Sadly these discussions always seem to degenerate because folks start projecting the discussion at hand to unrelated and/or tangential points in order to elicit some sort of response.
Your house example is not an apples to apples comparison, the potential for asymmetric information is much lower in a home sale transaction. In fact many times it is the buyer that knows less about the home than the seller.
When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
If they would take 10% of what it was worth I would tell them the actual value and then figure out why they only wanted 10%. I've had multiple situations where someone has offered my company their contracting services at too low a rate. Each time I have countered with what I was originally willing to pay them, in some cases 50% more than they asked for. I've done this with contractors I want to maintain a long term relationship with as well as those I would never hire again.
For whatever reason you seem to link not taking advantage of someone/situation to not negotiating (ie offering less than the asking price). There is nothing wrong with negotiation. I've purchased two homes, I offered more than the asking price on the first home because I wanted it and I knew there would be multiple offers. I offered less on my second home because the housing market was tanking and the home was priced based on an older appraisal. I ended up buying both homes.
Not 100% sure where the "no profits" comment is coming from. You can negotiate a profit into a deal, very few of us would have jobs if there wasn't a place for making a profit in transactions. I may be a somewhat altruistic businessman but I negotiate a margin into most of my deals, occasionally I have deals where I break even or lose money so I can keep the folks that work for me busy/employed. I just make sure that margin is something I think is fair based on how I felt when I was a contractor.
Cheers,
Robb
There's no way he should expect to get better than half of retail in one bulk transaction
And when estimating, don't assume any card will obtain any PSA grade
This collection owner can spend a couple hours of his time to research and get a much more accurate sense of what this collection is worth. He is choosing not to do that, or he isn't doing it very well. Why is that anyone else's problem? If we all had to baby everyone before they made a decision we'd have no time for anything else.
Treat the man like a grown up. Make him an offer and give him a chance to accept or tell you to piss off (or something in between).
<< <i>When buying I will generally try and double my money, so I'll usually offer around 40% of what I think I can get for it and leave the 10% extra as wiggle room for negotiating. Sounds like this collection is somewhere in the $15k range, so I'd offer in the neighborhood of 6k and go from there.
There's also an element of gamble to a collection like this versus one that's all mid-grade. If you think there's a handful of big cards that could 9 you should factor that in to your highest buy price, but not necessarily into your initial offer since nothing is a given. I do not believe in intentionally throwing out lowball offers, but if they initiate contact and throw out a price first I think it's fair game. This guy is clearly waiting for the OP to make an offer so that's not gonna happen. From what's described I think 3-4k is a lowball offer.
As mentioned before, I would also offer to consign if that's the direction he wants to go in but the seller should understand that the process of grading, listing, shipping, etc... will take time and not everybody wants to wait around 3-6 months for their money. >>
Seems to me that the total value figure of 15K is way too low based on the grading presumptions of the OP...so I guess perhaps the 15K figure guestimate is based on the OP overestimatiing the potential grades of the cards, which I think might not be a bad presumption after giving it some thought.
I've been in that situation when initially looking at a raw bunch of cards and ya get excited over it, then ya come back and look at it a day or so later, or perhaps a few hours later, and it's not quite as good as ya remembered it. Suddenly you're seeing those wrinkles and creases ya didn't see the first time, and those 9's or 10's that ya originally thought possible, ya look at them under a loupe and suddenly they turn into 8's, 7's and 6's.
<< <i>Ok guys, this is how it went...
Got there with my son and he let us in and we sat down in his dining room where all the boxes were.
1st box he handed me were 1962's. He had probably 600-800 singles. He did not have sets. The singles
in this box were broken down into 100's. Everything was there from Mantles, koufax, Maris, Clemente and
multiples on everyone! Overall grade had a big range from vg/ex to some nrmt. I expected this on the 1962's
with the brown borders. I did see a couple Witt, 1 may have a shot at a 8?!
The next 2 boxes I looked at were all mixed with 1961's,1962's and 61/62 Post cards. Ive never seen so many Post cards
in my life! Post cards, mixed condition, didnt really pay much attention to those but he did have all the stars and multiples inc Mantle.
The 1961's and 62 Topps in these 2 boxes were just mixed and in no order. Again lots of star power Condition anywhere from vg/ex to some nrmt.
I was taking notes as I went along because we went into this knowing a deal would not be completed today. Today we agreed
for me to look things over to get an idea what he had. On the phone he said he wasnt sure he was ready to sell but after talking
with him today, I think he is ready and willing. Whats holding this deal right now, is he is going away for 2 weeks and when he gets
back, he said he will be calling me.
Anyways, here are some of the star cards I seen with qty..
1961 topps yaz-2, koufaz-9, banks--2,musial-2, Marichal-2, clemente-4, mantle
1962 topps koufax-4, maris 6, musial 4, clemente 4, mathews 7, banks 4, brook robinson 6, frank robinson 5, spahn 4
g.perry, b.williams 5, mantle 2, mantle #318 5, aaron 5, mantle allstar 2,
Also, I went through 2 more mixed boxes later and found many more of these cards and stopped adding to those totals!!!!
At this point I was excited but didnt see the high grade stuff I had hoped for until I got the box of 1963's in front of me.
IM not sure but he may have seen my jaw drop! These cards are the nicest I have seen and I have handled many 1963's over the years.
He had high numbers, semi high numbers as well. The Rose was sweeeeet! He had the Stargell a bit o/c. All the stars were there and
these cards are pack fresh, clemente,banks,koufax,mantle was off in condition,2 yaz,mccovey,aaron it goes on and on and on.
1963 Topps football looked the same. Many cards had the gum dust and were pack fresh! Again, loaded with stars and I see many 9's!
1964's and 65's looked the same as the 63's, pack fresh in good qty loaded with stars. Cards were well centered and I see some 10's here for sure!
Other stuff of note that he had...
1965 topps embossed cards, pack fresh
Topps coind, he had a good amount of these
he had a box full of 50's stuff. 1951 topps blue and redbacks
30-40 1952 topps cards for the most part looked exmt.
he had a 1952 bowman willie mays that looked vg (o/c with a bit corner wear)
1953-55 dorman mickey mantle postcard!
he had 2-3 hundred 1963 fleers.
there were small amounts of 1958 and 59 topps with nothing big.
He did have around 20-30 1957 topps that looked unreal pack fresh!
all years above, there were loads of all star cards,leader cards etc that had mantle, mays,koufax aaron etc (multiples!)
After I was done, I told him I was very interested in buying his collection and hoped we could talk about when he gets back
but I wanted to make sure he was ready to sell. He said yes when he returns. He said he will call me when he gets back.
The conversation and the time went by well. I have my fingers crossed on this because those 63,64 and 65's graded
should bring in some huge money! >>
Regarding my previous post...I still say, even taking into account the possibility of the cards maybe not looking as good the second time around, I'd still offer the guy at least 10K if he doesn't wish to do a consignment deal.
<< <i>I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. . >>
I understand your point that everyone should educate themselves on the value of their own possessions, and that it's not someone's elses responsibility to do so, but let's say you have an old antique that you take to the dealer, and she tells you of how wonderful it is, and offers you $1,000 for it, and you are so happy to get that grand for a literal piece of junk, and then you find out that she sold this item for
$36,000 at auction the next month. Do you wish that the antique dealer would have told you that she could get at least $25k at auction and she'd like to offer you $15k ? Or are you still happy with your $1,000 dollars ?
I doubt tsalems thinks he is the only one that has seen or will see this collection before sale...
the seller could come back and tell him to pound sand...
everything else here is speculation...
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<< <i>I'll pose this question to all of you. When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
OK I'll bite- The fundamental difference here is that the seller determined a price on their own. It's a very different thing to accept a seller's asking price of 10% of market value than it is to offer 10% of market value and try and convince them it's a strong offer. A few months ago I bought a collection listed on BST for $500 that I ended up selling for $8k+. It was a collection and I didn't know exactly what I was getting, but I knew it was worth a lot more than $500. Since the seller determined the price and listed it, I simply accepted it knowing that 9 other people would've bought it and flipped it had I not. It's a completely different thing if he listed it for $1,000 and I offered him $500 knowing I could get $8k for it. If you can't see there's a difference there I don't know what to tell you. >>
I think it's also different if you're being approached as a professional and the seller is seeking advice regarding the value. If a real estate agent (similar to a card dealer) were approached with a house, quoted a value that was a small fraction of the actual value, and then bought it and flipped it....well, that would probably violate a few laws.
With that said, obviously you don't pay top dollar. You figure out the lot's value, the value of your time, and offer accordingly. I also would not factor grading into anything. They're not graded until they're in the slab. If a collection included a lot of low dollar items, I would pay a very low percentage for those.
For Sale on eBay
<< <i>
<< <i>I just don't get where it's someones job or responsibility to educate the seller. . >>
I understand your point that everyone should educate themselves on the value of their own possessions, and that it's not someone's elses responsibility to do so, but let's say you have an old antique that you take to the dealer, and she tells you of how wonderful it is, and offers you $1,000 for it, and you are so happy to get that grand for a literal piece of junk, and then you find out that she sold this item for
$36,000 at auction the next month. Do you wish that the antique dealer would have told you that she could get at least $25k at auction and she'd like to offer you $15k ? Or are you still happy with your $1,000 dollars ? >>
If I sell something for $1000 that is worth $36,000 then it's my own fault for not educating myself as to the value of the item and kudos to the lady for making a good deal off of my laziness or lack of knowledge.
<< <i>I'll pose this question to all of you. When you bought your house did you offer less than the asking price? Would you have ripped the seller's arm off if they said they'd take 10% of what the home was worth?
OK I'll bite- The fundamental difference here is that the seller determined a price on their own. It's a very different thing to accept a seller's asking price of 10% of market value than it is to offer 10% of market value and try and convince them it's a strong offer. A few months ago I bought a collection listed on BST for $500 that I ended up selling for $8k+. It was a collection and I didn't know exactly what I was getting, but I knew it was worth a lot more than $500. Since the seller determined the price and listed it, I simply accepted it knowing that 9 other people would've bought it and flipped it had I not. It's a completely different thing if he listed it for $1,000 and I offered him $500 knowing I could get $8k for it. If you can't see there's a difference there I don't know what to tell you. >>
and you didn't split part of that huge profit with the seller who obviously didn't know what they had? Shame on you.
<< <i>I wonder when new member "60's and doesnt know about grading" is going to chime in? >>
Good point... would the OP be saying any of this if the seller was a reader of these forums?
<< <i>When buying I will generally try and double my money, so I'll usually offer around 40% of what I think I can get for it and leave the 10% extra as wiggle room for negotiating. Sounds like this collection is somewhere in the $15k range, so I'd offer in the neighborhood of 6k and go from there.
There's also an element of gamble to a collection like this versus one that's all mid-grade. If you think there's a handful of big cards that could 9 you should factor that in to your highest buy price, but not necessarily into your initial offer since nothing is a given. I do not believe in intentionally throwing out lowball offers, but if they initiate contact and throw out a price first I think it's fair game. This guy is clearly waiting for the OP to make an offer so that's not gonna happen. From what's described I think 3-4k is a lowball offer.
As mentioned before, I would also offer to consign if that's the direction he wants to go in but the seller should understand that the process of grading, listing, shipping, etc... will take time and not everybody wants to wait around 3-6 months for their money. >>
This post makes quite a bit of sense to me as this is how I have done business in the past on a smaller level though and usually for friends and other people know to me.
Since none of us except the OP has seen the cards, and therefore don't know exact condition (OP said cards ranged vg to nmmt), this is how I am going to approximate it: high column of Beckett, then at the end figure that on eBay (where I assume the OP is going to sell everything), the card would sell for 20% to 50% depending on condition. I don't think it's fair to think about what grades some cards could bring in while calculating value because, as we all know, potential 9's can come back as 6's or 7's. In the list I am going to put Beckett, and the end I will put percentages. If anyone thinks the percentages are off, you can re-use my numbers to use your own.
1962 Topps Singles (said 600-800, so figure 700) in vgex to nmmt: $5 for a common low number, so $3,500
1961/1962 Post cards: quantity not specified, so not sure
1961 Topps
Yaz (2): $100
Koufax (9): $900
Banks (2): $80
Musial (2): $200
Marichal (2): $200
Clemente (4): $480
Mantle: $600
1962 Topps
Koufax (4): $400
Maris (6): $3000
Musial (4): $400
Clemente (4): $800
Mathews (7): $280
Banks (4): $200
Brooks Robinson (6): $300
Frank Robinson (5): $250
Spahn (4): $160
Perry: $80
Billy Williams (5): $150
Mantle (2): $1200
Mantle IA (5): $150
Aaron (5): $750
Mantle AS (2): $400
1963 Topps
Rose RC: $1000
Stargell RC: $120
Clemente: $250
Banks: $100
Koufax: $150
Mantle (OP said it was off-condition, so figure 50% of Beckett): $300
Yaz (2): $80
McCovey: $100
Aaron: $200
1952 Topps (30-40 commons, so figure 35): $1400
1951 Bowman Mays (OP said it was O/C with corner wear, so figure 80% of Beckett): $1200
1953-55 Dorman Mickey Mantle (I don't have my big book right now, so there is one PSA 8 on eBay asking $1,300, so I'm guessing): $1000
1963 Fleer 200-300 commons, so figure 250: $3750
Yaz: $100
Clemente (2): $400
Spahn (2): $160
Koufax (2): $400
Mays (2): $400
1964 Topps
Banks (7): $280
Mantle (3): $1500
Berra (3): $120
Conigliaro RC (5): $250
Aaron: $100
Yaz (3): $120
Koufax (2): $240
AL Bombers (5): $750
Maris: $60
McCovey (2): $50
Stargell (3): $90
1960 Topps Yaz RC: $200
1957 Topps 20-30 commons, so figure 25: $200
1950 Bowman 20-30 commons, so figure 25: $375
1951 Bowman 10-15 commons, so figure 13: $260
1955 Bowman 20-30 commons, so figure 25: $300
1963 Fleer Football, 100 commons: $800
1962 Topps Football, 300 commons in vgex condition (figure 40% of book): $480
Ditka RC vgex (40% of book): $120
1964 Topps Coins 100-150, so figure 125 commons: $500
1965 Topps Embossed 50 commons: $100
1962 Bazooka Mickey Mantle: I don't have my big book, but one sold on eBay for $70, so use that
Mecca Lake/Wallace: I don't have my big book, but one did not sell for $94, so let's guess at $100 for now
Now keep in mind that the above is an incomplete list in that I don't know how many other star cards and commons are in this collection AND I don't know condition. However, most of the cards that are not in the above list probably don't matter that much in the price because they are commons and would only have value if they come back in a high grade. Therefore, since we cannot figure estimated grades into the collection's value, the cards are of negligible value for these purposes.
The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. If the cards sold for 50% of Beckett, the OP would get $16,377.50 before fees. If the cards sold for 20% of book, the OP would get $6,551 before fees. If the seller used auctions rather than fixed price listings, after you combine the listing fee, FVF, Paypal fees, and shipping, let's say fees would be 15%, so the range would become $5,568.35 to $13,920.88.
Then, figure in grading fees. Let's say the OP grades 500 cards, most of which are commons, so we'll use a bulk grading price (actual grading fees would be higher for star cards, so keep that in mind). Per card fee would be $6, so before you get into shipping both ways for PSA, grading fees would be another $3,000. You might get some winners that would increase the total value of the collection, but you'd probably get plenty of losers and you'd be out the $6 per card.
Now, with all of that info, discuss.
<< <i>........Let's say the OP grades 500 cards...................
.............Per card fee would be $6, so before you get into shipping both ways for PSA, grading fees would be another $600. ............ >>
$600 would be for only grading 100 cards, using your $6 per card value it would be $3,000 in grading fees for the 500 cards you speculated about.
<< <i>No one has taken the time to sit down and figure out the value of the cards the OP mentioned, and I think that is a shame because without that information everyone is speculating and not using facts in their arguments.
Since none of us except the OP has seen the cards, and therefore don't know exact condition (OP said cards ranged vg to nmmt), this is how I am going to approximate it: high column of Beckett, then at the end figure that on eBay (where I assume the OP is going to sell everything), the card would sell for 20% to 50% depending on condition. I don't think it's fair to think about what grades some cards could bring in while calculating value because, as we all know, potential 9's can come back as 6's or 7's. In the list I am going to put Beckett, and the end I will put percentages. If anyone thinks the percentages are off, you can re-use my numbers to use your own.
1962 Topps Singles (said 600-800, so figure 700) in vgex to nmmt: $5 for a common low number, so $3,500
1961/1962 Post cards: quantity not specified, so not sure
1961 Topps
Yaz (2): $100
Koufax (9): $900
Banks (2): $80
Musial (2): $200
Marichal (2): $200
Clemente (4): $480
Mantle: $600
1962 Topps
Koufax (4): $400
Maris (6): $3000
Musial (4): $400
Clemente (4): $800
Mathews (7): $280
Banks (4): $200
Brooks Robinson (6): $300
Frank Robinson (5): $250
Spahn (4): $160
Perry: $80
Billy Williams (5): $150
Mantle (2): $1200
Mantle IA (5): $150
Aaron (5): $750
Mantle AS (2): $400
1963 Topps
Rose RC: $1000
Stargell RC: $120
Clemente: $250
Banks: $100
Koufax: $150
Mantle (OP said it was off-condition, so figure 50% of Beckett): $300
Yaz (2): $80
McCovey: $100
Aaron: $200
1952 Topps (30-40 commons, so figure 35): $1400
1951 Bowman Mays (OP said it was O/C with corner wear, so figure 80% of Beckett): $1200
1953-55 Dorman Mickey Mantle (I don't have my big book right now, so there is one PSA 8 on eBay asking $1,300, so I'm guessing): $1000
1963 Fleer 200-300 commons, so figure 250: $3750
Yaz: $100
Clemente (2): $400
Spahn (2): $160
Koufax (2): $400
Mays (2): $400
1964 Topps
Banks (7): $280
Mantle (3): $1500
Berra (3): $120
Conigliaro RC (5): $250
Aaron: $100
Yaz (3): $120
Koufax (2): $240
AL Bombers (5): $750
Maris: $60
McCovey (2): $50
Stargell (3): $90
1960 Topps Yaz RC: $200
1957 Topps 20-30 commons, so figure 25: $200
1950 Bowman 20-30 commons, so figure 25: $375
1951 Bowman 10-15 commons, so figure 13: $260
1955 Bowman 20-30 commons, so figure 25: $300
1963 Fleer Football, 100 commons: $800
1962 Topps Football, 300 commons in vgex condition (figure 40% of book): $480
Ditka RC vgex (40% of book): $120
1964 Topps Coins 100-150, so figure 125 commons: $500
1965 Topps Embossed 50 commons: $100
1962 Bazooka Mickey Mantle: I don't have my big book, but one sold on eBay for $70, so use that
Mecca Lake/Wallace: I don't have my big book, but one did not sell for $94, so let's guess at $100 for now
Now keep in mind that the above is an incomplete list in that I don't know how many other star cards and commons are in this collection AND I don't know condition. However, most of the cards that are not in the above list probably don't matter that much in the price because they are commons and would only have value if they come back in a high grade. Therefore, since we cannot figure estimated grades into the collection's value, the cards are of negligible value for these purposes.
The total value of the above listed cards is $32,755. If the cards sold for 50% of Beckett, the OP would get $16,377.50 before fees. If the cards sold for 20% of book, the OP would get $6,551 before fees. If the seller used auctions rather than fixed price listings, after you combine the listing fee, FVF, Paypal fees, and shipping, let's say fees would be 15%, so the range would become $5,568.35 to $13,920.88.
Then, figure in grading fees. Let's say the OP grades 500 cards, most of which are commons, so we'll use a bulk grading price (actual grading fees would be higher for star cards, so keep that in mind). Per card fee would be $6, so before you get into shipping both ways for PSA, grading fees would be another $600. You might get some winners that would increase the total value of the collection, but you'd probably get plenty of losers and you'd be out the $6 per card.
Now, with all of that info, discuss. >>
It is smart, and good business to spend however long it takes, in front of the seller, to individually value each card or lot, and figure up a total, and then make an offer based on that - most smart buyers do it that way in situations such as this...so your premise of figuring the cards and lots individually I agree with. However I do disagree with a number of your values based on what the OP stated.....
.....but in any event, your post is definitely the post of the day for effort alone.
<< <i>
<< <i>........Let's say the OP grades 500 cards...................
.............Per card fee would be $6, so before you get into shipping both ways for PSA, grading fees would be another $600. ............ >>
$600 would be for only grading 100 cards, using your $6 per card value it would be $3,000 in grading fees for the 500 cards you speculated about. >>
Woops, thanks for pointing that out.
<< <i>Why not give us the name and phone number of the prospective seller, and let us all have a chance of bidding on it?
LOL
Actually I did, I sent the guy back a little extra since the stuff sold for more than I thought it would. The kicker was the guy knew the stuff would sell for a lot, it was just a lot of individual cards and he just wanted to be rid of them. He even followed the auctions I had on ebay and congratulated me on doing well with them. It was a case where an educated seller who was reasonably well off decided he wanted to be rid of everything so he fire-saled it. His biggest issue was that it was so much stuff he needed someone to come pick it up, which nobody else on the boards bothered to do. So the motivation he used to get someone out there was to sell it at a price where someone like me couldn't resist. He'd been collecting a particular player for the last 20 years so he knew what the stuff was worth, he just didn't want to be bothered with it anymore.