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Very interesting subject from....
NotSure
Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭
...this thread from ATS. We all know Shane to be an upstanding, 'one of the good guys', but I feel he should really spill what he knows. He certainly has his share of gorgeously toned coins, but if there's a 'fly in the ointment', perhaps it should be brought into the light.....???? We DON'T need a repeat of the MOC fiasco from a few years ago.
I'll come up with something.
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<< <i>...this thread from ATS. We all know Shane to be an upstanding, 'one of the good guys', but I feel he should really spill what he knows. He certainly has his share of gorgeously toned coins, but if there's a 'fly in the ointment', perhaps it should be brought into the light.....???? We DON'T need a repeat of the MOC fiasco from a few years ago. >>
What a terrible overstatement. Really?
Calling that incident a 'fiasco' is like calling a splinter in your pinkie finger a life long disability.
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<< <i>...this thread from ATS. We all know Shane to be an upstanding, 'one of the good guys', but I feel he should really spill what he knows. He certainly has his share of gorgeously toned coins, but if there's a 'fly in the ointment', perhaps it should be brought into the light.....???? We DON'T need a repeat of the MOC fiasco from a few years ago. >>
What a terrible overstatement. Really?
Calling that incident a 'fiasco' is like calling a splinter in your pinkie finger a life long disability. >>
Terrible overstatement? When someone doctors coins, gets called to the carpet, then buys back said coins, that's nothing? Perhaps you should do a search on it and see how 'splinter' like it really was. It was a throwdown. Not trying to offend, just stating what has been known for awhile. MOC DID step up, admit his wrongdoing, tried to make it right (even stated he was going to move out of the hobby...does that sound like a splinter disability from a man that KNOWS his series?). There are still some that hold it against him.
Yes, I'd call it at LEAST a fiasco.
edited to add....alot of those doctored coins were sold to members here. Had YOU been one that bought one, or more, would YOU think it merely nothing? I think not.
<< <i>Perhaps he has specifics, but in general, most of us know that coins can be AT'd and not be detected. There are many, many, many out there - in slabs and out. Cheers, RickO >>
Very true, Ricko...that's why I prefer my coins just like you do....blast white. Toning to me is just what it is to you...'tarnish'. A dip is not doctoring, but 'gassing' them, or other avenues of AT'ing IS doctoring.
Wonder why he didn't dip them clean before selling them.
<< <i>Apparently the OP ATS AT'd some coins years back as an experiment and sold them as AT'd. They were low end, low value coins. Now they are in PCGS slabs (according to him. I guess he recognized his work). Because of their low value, they probably didn't go thru the sniffer.
Wonder why he didn't dip them clean before selling them. >>
They undoubtedly fetched more money as "art toning" (his words!) and therefore, made more business sense to sell as such. He also disclosed the method used in that thread... matchsticks and a heat lamp.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Apparently the OP ATS AT'd some coins years back as an experiment and sold them as AT'd. They were low end, low value coins. Now they are in PCGS slabs (according to him. I guess he recognized his work). Because of their low value, they probably didn't go thru the sniffer.
Wonder why he didn't dip them clean before selling them. >>
I don't own any dip and never have....simple but true answer. They are certainly not the type of coins that most of us would reasonably submit to a tpg and they aren't particularly attractive to boot. They were worth silver melt to me.
We all should really wise up and understand that most brilliant white coins have been dipped and most toned coins have been 'played' with in some form or other.
End of story.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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<< <i>Apparently the OP ATS AT'd some coins years back as an experiment and sold them as AT'd. They were low end, low value coins. Now they are in PCGS slabs (according to him. I guess he recognized his work). Because of their low value, they probably didn't go thru the sniffer.
Wonder why he didn't dip them clean before selling them. >>
They undoubtedly fetched more money as "art toning" (his words!) and therefore, made more business sense to sell as such. He also disclosed the method used in that thread... matchsticks and a heat lamp. >>
I didn't even have images of some of them in my auction...I just showed images of stack of coins in 2X2's.....with a complete list of each coin with breif descriptions. I wanted silver melt of possibly a bit more since all of the coins save for like 2 were unc. I believe they sold for right at melt which is a good deal for mint set coins and in some cases gem plus uncs.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>You AT'd coins and sold them. It was your responsibility to dip them before selling them. If you don't own dip, do you own a wire brush? >>
I disagree completely...if there is full disclosure as there was in this case....then selling AT coins should not be an issue anymore than selling a cleaned coin. When I sell a bulk lot of silver I don't surmise that the buyer would waste grading fees sending in low ms grade AT coins.....they are still worth melt to me and the overall appearance is not going to net much if any toning premium. The thread was not started to paint PCGS or any other grading service in a bad light as nobody can get it right 100% of the time.
What we really need to do is stop the toner junky who will pay for their fix.
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<< <i>You AT'd coins and sold them. It was your responsibility to dip them before selling them. If you don't own dip, do you own a wire brush? >>
I disagree completely...if there is full disclosure as there was in this case....then selling AT coins should not be an issue anymore than selling a cleaned coin. When I sell a bulk lot of silver I don't surmise that the buyer would waste grading fees sending in low ms grade AT coins.....they are still worth melt to me and the overall appearance is not going to net much if any toning premium. The thread was not started to paint PCGS or any other grading service in a bad light as nobody can get it right 100% of the time. >>
I guess we have a different view of right and wrong. Now it becomes a PCGS warranty issue. Shareholders flip you the bird.
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<< <i>You AT'd coins and sold them. It was your responsibility to dip them before selling them. If you don't own dip, do you own a wire brush? >>
I disagree completely...if there is full disclosure as there was in this case....then selling AT coins should not be an issue anymore than selling a cleaned coin. When I sell a bulk lot of silver I don't surmise that the buyer would waste grading fees sending in low ms grade AT coins.....they are still worth melt to me and the overall appearance is not going to net much if any toning premium. The thread was not started to paint PCGS or any other grading service in a bad light as nobody can get it right 100% of the time. >>
I guess we have a different view of right and wrong. Now it becomes a PCGS warranty issue. Shareholders flip you the bird.
Again I disagree....as with any coin submitted...my consignor paid for an opinion and he got one...this isn't a situation where PCGS is going to have to fall back on any guarantee. And yes we have a different opinion completely....disclosure is disclosure whether you accept that or not...most of the other collecting community would agree. Just becuase a coin is cleaned, tooled, AT'd, whizzed does not mean it has to be burried or destroyed......
Why don't you buy the coins and destroy them? In my "warped" sense of right and wrong, that is the right thing to do.
siliconvalleycoins.com
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<< <i>You AT'd coins and sold them. It was your responsibility to dip them before selling them. If you don't own dip, do you own a wire brush? >>
I disagree completely...if there is full disclosure as there was in this case....then selling AT coins should not be an issue anymore than selling a cleaned coin. When I sell a bulk lot of silver I don't surmise that the buyer would waste grading fees sending in low ms grade AT coins.....they are still worth melt to me and the overall appearance is not going to net much if any toning premium. The thread was not started to paint PCGS or any other grading service in a bad light as nobody can get it right 100% of the time. >>
I guess we have a different view of right and wrong. Now it becomes a PCGS warranty issue. Shareholders flip you the bird.
He was selling junk silver..... get a life dude
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<< <i>In the grading room, there's no such thing as AT or NT ... only MA or non MA. >>
<< <i>If you have an older blast white coin, you can be certain it's been dipped sometime during its life. Toned coins don't have that certainty... AT and NT coins are tough to differentiate. Some coins are obviously NT, others are blatantly AT; it's the ones in the middle that have to be graded as MA. It's quite a presumption to believe selling your coins with full disclosure in the present will convey to all future sellers/buyers. We can now see the cause-and-effect of full disclosure. >>
bout time you got something right. Did Larrisa or Larsen type this?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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<< <i>You AT'd coins and sold them. It was your responsibility to dip them before selling them. If you don't own dip, do you own a wire brush? >>
I disagree completely...if there is full disclosure as there was in this case....then selling AT coins should not be an issue anymore than selling a cleaned coin. >>
I kinda disagree in that coins that have been cleaned are not readily detectable from an auction listing and as far as I know, are not sold with the "cleaning" being the highlight of the coin.
Toning on the other hand, is always detectable from a photograph and is usually always the highlight of the coin being sold.
AT'ing coins and then secreting them into lots to be sold at melt without removing the experiment results is naivity at its best. You really should have known this.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>As long as there is demand, the supply will follow.
What we really need to do is stop the toner junky who will pay for their fix.
You mean like paying $3,600 for a Franklin thats worth maybe $300 without the colorful toning?
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>You AT'd coins and sold them. It was your responsibility to dip them before selling them. If you don't own dip, do you own a wire brush? >>
I disagree completely...if there is full disclosure as there was in this case....then selling AT coins should not be an issue anymore than selling a cleaned coin. When I sell a bulk lot of silver I don't surmise that the buyer would waste grading fees sending in low ms grade AT coins.....they are still worth melt to me and the overall appearance is not going to net much if any toning premium. The thread was not started to paint PCGS or any other grading service in a bad light as nobody can get it right 100% of the time. >>
I guess we have a different view of right and wrong. Now it becomes a PCGS warranty issue. Shareholders flip you the bird.
Again I disagree....as with any coin submitted...my consignor paid for an opinion and he got one...this isn't a situation where PCGS is going to have to fall back on any guarantee. And yes we have a different opinion completely....disclosure is disclosure whether you accept that or not...most of the other collecting community would agree. Just becuase a coin is cleaned, tooled, AT'd, whizzed does not mean it has to be burried or destroyed...... >>
No. But it does mean if it's been intentionally AT'ed it should be dipped to prevent the possibility of it getting passed, somewhere down the line, as NT.
The name is LEE!
Buy the coins back and destroy them. Use a wire brush, sand paper, acid, a hammer and a nail, or dip them. Whatever. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
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<< <i>As long as there is demand, the supply will follow.
What we really need to do is stop the toner junky who will pay for their fix.
You mean like paying $3,600 for a Franklin thats worth maybe $300 without the colorful toning?
Exactly, collectors have brought this problem on themselves.
Sniffer or no, this problem will only get worse in the future with technology.
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<< <i>As long as there is demand, the supply will follow.
What we really need to do is stop the toner junky who will pay for their fix.
You mean like paying $3,600 for a Franklin thats worth maybe $300 without the colorful toning?
That same collector wouldn't have paid $30 for that "$300 Franklin" if it were white. It would have never made his radar. But, that's just the way it is. It didn't get to that price of $3600 all by itself. Also, the buyer of that coin has received multiple much HIGHER offers for it now that it has been through sniffer process. Again, it's just the way it is. Some will still insist that it's AT, others NT but for certain it is now MA.
As for this Shane thing.... I really don't get it and why he started the thread ATS. It's puzzling to me on what his end game was or what he was trting to express especially since his intial post was cryptic and vague. But, just as a few altered, tooled and puttied coins make it into TPG slabs so to will some AT coins. It is what it is. Collect what you know and are comfortable with. All I know that the market for true MA toned coins is getting stronger with each passing day as quality material remains in strong hands. TDN is right, it's all about what is MA.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>TDN is right, it's all about what is MA.
MJ >>
That would add a new level of excitement to coin submissions.
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<< <i>If you have an older blast white coin, you can be certain it's been dipped sometime during its life. Toned coins don't have that certainty... AT and NT coins are tough to differentiate. Some coins are obviously NT, others are blatantly AT; it's the ones in the middle that have to be graded as MA. It's quite a presumption to believe selling your coins with full disclosure in the present will convey to all future sellers/buyers. We can now see the cause-and-effect of full disclosure. >>
bout time you got something right. Did Larrisa or Larsen type this?
MJ >>
What the... yes, am I that transparent?
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<< <i>I personally don't think shane did anything wrong. When selling a coin raw and giving full disclosure that its been cleaned, whizzed, ATed ect is totally fine. Any of those problem coins can find there way into a holder! So shouldn't they all be destroyed? Why should that AT coin just be destroyed? >>
If I own a coin that I knew to be personally altered and that means I did the altering (btw just to be perfectly clear I have never touched a raw coin in such a manner), cleaned, tooled, toned I wouldn't sell it. I would shove it, destroy it, keep it (as a scientific experiment like Dr Frankenstein would have in the bool or movie that is) but I would not sell it. Selling implies money was traded btw and I know what will inevitably happen, it will find its way into a holder some day. I may give it away to a fellow collector that i know who feels as strongly as i do. But i wouldn't put it back into the market or allow it to be traded which he did when he sold said coin. Why is it all about the money, so $20 isn't worth this mess, so why did you sell it for $20 then? It is just not worth it imho because it could end up in a holder in some unsuspecting collector's collection. It is called responsibility, if you are goign to mess with coins make sure you don't make a mess out of it later on, know where your trash is kept or just don't create it. >>
Ah Fishcakes!!! If he disclosed that the coins were AT when he sold them he did nothing wrong. Its up to the new owner to disclose. If he sent them to PCGS he should tell them they are AT right?
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<< <i>I personally don't think shane did anything wrong. When selling a coin raw and giving full disclosure that its been cleaned, whizzed, ATed ect is totally fine. Any of those problem coins can find there way into a holder! So shouldn't they all be destroyed? Why should that AT coin just be destroyed? >>
If I own a coin that I knew to be personally altered and that means I did the altering (btw just to be perfectly clear I have never touched a raw coin in such a manner), cleaned, tooled, toned I wouldn't sell it. I would shove it, destroy it, keep it (as a scientific experiment like Dr Frankenstein would have in the bool or movie that is) but I would not sell it. Selling implies money was traded btw and I know what will inevitably happen, it will find its way into a holder some day. I may give it away to a fellow collector that i know who feels as strongly as i do. But i wouldn't put it back into the market or allow it to be traded which he did when he sold said coin. Why is it all about the money, so $20 isn't worth this mess, so why did you sell it for $20 then? It is just not worth it imho because it could end up in a holder in some unsuspecting collector's collection. It is called responsibility, if you are goign to mess with coins make sure you don't make a mess out of it later on, know where your trash is kept or just don't create it. >>
I totally understand what you are saying but its not the case. Both pcgs and ngc give cons genuine and details grading. Shouldn't those coins just be destroyed? One can easly (and believe me they do) buy these problem coins and crack them. They can be offered raw or can be tried once again to be slabbed and im sure they have made it. I see your point as its a duty for us collectors to protect one another but this is a case of him basically giving those ATed pieces his own details grade if you will. When the third party graders start destroying problem coins then maybe collectors will follow. As always this is just simply my opinion
Raising a ruckus over the admissions within this thread causes you to miss that point.
Take your eyes off the bouncing ball and look at the real target.
And just because something is deemed to be "market acceptable," does not excuse a coin collector from knowing how to grade said coin. It certainly does NOT mean it is acceptable to me. If you want to pay $10K for a colorful, AT'd CBH that got slabbed as MS 65, you can be my guest. To me, such a coin is damaged goods, and I won't go near it. Ditto for the 100 plus 'enhanced' Bust $s that I have personally seen which made it into first world slabs.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
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<< <i>I personally don't think shane did anything wrong. When selling a coin raw and giving full disclosure that its been cleaned, whizzed, ATed ect is totally fine. Any of those problem coins can find there way into a holder! So shouldn't they all be destroyed? Why should that AT coin just be destroyed? >>
If I own a coin that I knew to be personally altered and that means I did the altering (btw just to be perfectly clear I have never touched a raw coin in such a manner), cleaned, tooled, toned I wouldn't sell it. I would shove it, destroy it, keep it (as a scientific experiment like Dr Frankenstein would have in the bool or movie that is) but I would not sell it. Selling implies money was traded btw and I know what will inevitably happen, it will find its way into a holder some day. I may give it away to a fellow collector that i know who feels as strongly as i do. But i wouldn't put it back into the market or allow it to be traded which he did when he sold said coin. Why is it all about the money, so $20 isn't worth this mess, so why did you sell it for $20 then? It is just not worth it imho because it could end up in a holder in some unsuspecting collector's collection. It is called responsibility, if you are goign to mess with coins make sure you don't make a mess out of it later on, know where your trash is kept or just don't create it. >>
Ah Fishcakes!!! If he disclosed that the coins were AT when he sold them he did nothing wrong. Its up to the new owner to disclose. If he sent them to PCGS he should tell them they are AT right?
He said he sold them for a lousy $20. If he were to attempt to send them to PCGS then he would be trying to fool PCGS and get something by them. I believe him when he said he told the buyer that they were AT although I am going on trust with statement. But my point is , WE all want doctored coins off the flippin market, it shouldn't be about the money and full disclosure in nonesense because it is meaningless, it doesn't remove responsibility telling my priest that I committed a crime by confessing. I realize this isn't criminal but WE want doctored coins of the market, how may ways do I need to say this inorder not to be taken out of context. One less coin doctoring experiment gone aray is what I am asking. >>
I meant the new owner informing PCGS and I included a wink also. Lets not lt this topic be life or death!
<< <i>This is truly UnREAL! How can coins knowingly doctored be allowed to be sold into the general public understanding through common sense that at some point in time they could end up in the holder and be a problem for the unknowing. >>
I'll take hyperbole for $1000 please Alec.
I so do enjoy watching the plastic worshippers getting their cherries popped...
Stuff is going to get missed folks. What is even better is that the market acceptability line in the sand is going to change slowly over time. I know that for most people that is really difficult to comprehend much less accept.
PCGS and NGC are not God. They offer a service that has, in my opinion, helped the hobby in a net positive manner. Plastic offers an increased measure of liquidity for your coins. Plastic offers a degree of protection. Plastic offers a recognized opinion on authenticity, grade and market acceptability of your coins.
If you don't like the coin that ended up in PCGS plastic, don't buy it! If you want to protect yourself from buying one of the very small percentage of polywogged coins that somehow made it out of the slab factory alive, then educate yourself! Everybody wants the coin collecting hobby to be sterile and without risk. It ain't going to happen...sorry.
Bottom line is that those coins are still in PCGS plastic and still have value as such. And Realone, if you are such a white knight, why don't you buy them up and send them back to PCGS for review to see if they will throw you some cash your way?
Frankenstein....puuuuuulllleeeeeasssssee.....
siliconvalleycoins.com
Anyone remember the guy that had all of those yellow pan-fried modern commems holdered to prove a point?
I'm getting frightened.
and before I go on, thank you CoinLt ... nice summary. As for Shane, I don't know you ... but sounds like a no harm no foul situation.
Yeah, destroy the coins, that's it.
Hell they're already damaged goods, right?
And they should never be misrepresented, or God forbid, in a first world TPG slab.
Are you coin collectors or plastic worshipers?
What about the scratched coin? Or the dipped coin? Or the album toned coin? or the anything but a friggin' MS70 straight from the mint coin?
Nope, not perfect ... destroy it. It can be misrepresented.
You go first then ... all of them.
I friggin' dare ya ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242