one more thing, Braves were just as bad, if not worse than the Red Sox down the stretch....they blew a ten game lead if my math is correct.....neither team deserved to go on to the post season the way they played down the stretch.
Well that was the most bizzare night of Bston sports since Game 6 in 1986. Yankees up 7-0 in the seventh inning, then tied 7-7 about 20 minutes later. Then the Papleblown and the $142 million botched catch. Frankly, I hope the Rays win the whole thing.
OK, it's now the Patriots' turn to win a championship. Bill, get your sh*t together on defense, now!
<< <i>Maybe Papelbon could try something other than a fastball once in a while? >>
No sh*t. I was yelling "throw a f**king breaking ball"!!! >>
Nah, you wouldn't want to do that. After all, just because the entire league knows Chris Davis can't hit anything but fastballs....
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>one more thing, Braves were just as bad, if not worse than the Red Sox down the stretch....they blew a ten game lead if my math is correct.....neither team deserved to go on to the post season the way they played down the stretch. >>
I agree that the Braves were just as bad(if not worse) down the stretch and didn't deserve the wildcard....but look at the Red Sox roster compared to the Braves. Most people thought at the beginning of the season the Braves on paper should at least make the playoffs....but many more thought this might be the best Red Sox team ever! The outcome is the same for both and the Braves are certainly disappointed...but Red Sox Nation has really got to be hurting today!
<< <i>Adrian Beltre was a 1-year stopgap measure, I don't count that. If he truly thought Beltre was great, he would have given him a long-term deal instead of a 1-year deal, waited for Ortiz' deal to expire this year, and made Youk a full-time DH, while Adrian Gonzalez played 1st. Although, to be honest, I agreed with the 1-year deal, because I always thought Beltre was a dog that only played during contract years. This year he proved me (and Theo) wrong.
I will give Theo full credit for his drafting skills, he is excellent at it. But guys like Lackey, Crawford, and Drew played in the major leagues for 7+ years, and he missed on all of them. You'd think being able to evaluate a player that has faced major league competition would be easier to do, but clearly it is a weak spot for him.
I guess Theo visits the same web site you do to determine % of contract earned because he said the same thing you just did about Drew. While Drew is good defensively, and perhaps doesn't run into outs, I want to punch something when I hear that Drew nearly lived up to his contract. Frankly, I can't remember a single defensive play that stands our for me that he made in his 5 years here. Not a diving catch in the gap, not robbing someone of a home run, not throwing out a runner in a key game. I didn't realize being fundamentally sound (but not exceptional) defensively and on the basepaths warranted $14m/year. >>
I doubt Theo does very much site visiting when he has the Godfather on the payroll. For starters, there was no place for Beltre after acquiring Gonzalez, so it wouldn't have come to that. Regardless, it still counts....as should all of his decisions to walk away from Boston beloved aging former players such as Damon, Pete Martinez, Nomah, J.Bay, Man-Ram to an extent etc when the vast majority of the fanbase wanted all of those guys to return. I didn't like the Crawford signing for no other reason than he doesn't have a suitable spot in that lineup so long as Pedroia soaks up the 2-hole. That said, probably a bit early to call that one a bust. Like it or not Drew wasn't a bust either. A bust is Carl Pavano with the Yankees. Drew put up his contract value in the first 4 years. If you're judging his defense on diving catches and other meaningless output then maybe he can't help you. But he was +42 in total zone and +36.8 UZR/150 over his BOS career. He wasn't signed to be an elite player, he was signed to be a solid supporting piece and that's what he provided for at least 3 & 1/2 years of his 5 year contract. Btw, every GM from a large market (spending) team has a bad FA record...at least aside from Amaro who hasn't been there long enough to fairly judge....though the Ibanez signing is a minus. Not sure who's responsible for extending Blanton. Anyway, post-ARB FAs tend to rarely earn their contracts. For example, here's the list of $100+ million dollar contracts.
how many of those are or will be considered good signings? The first A-rod contract and Sabathia are out of the equation since the opt outs are in play on those two. A juiced up ManRam was Duquette's signing and all things considered, he didn't quite live up to it. Beltran largely earned his. as did a gassed up Pujols, obviously. So far Holliday and M.Cabrera have...although chronic injuries with Holliday should have JortsNation worried. Teixeira and Howard likely will not as they both trend closer to - 3 True Outcome hitters (HR, BB, K). Mauer and Werth will never earn those contracts and will be closer to the Helton level if they're lucky. Too early on Tulo, Cliff Lee, Santana, A.Gonzalez, Crawford, and Braun to judge. Aside from those in progress, I see 2 that have truly worked out so far in Pujols and Beltran.
Now you can compare Theo's tenure to that of the Yankees/Cashman's resume over Espstein's reign. For starters, Cashman can match Lackey with Burnett. Too early to call on Teixeira, but that one, like A-Rod, is not going to end well. I understand Jeter's value to the franchise, but he was massively overpaid in both contracts. The second Posada extension = guh. Nick Johnson was a bust. 2 bad trades involving Javy Vasquez. Contreras = guh. R.Soriano no matter how it ends is a waste. Probably even value with the J.Damon contract though his value, like Granderson, is inflated by the 200 foot RF porch. H.Matsui only earned his salary in 2 of the 7 years he was in NY. Giambi only earned his contract in his first 3 years solely as the result of his contract being back-loaded. Pavano & Igawa = complete busts. Mussina even value more or less (made $100m and posted $106M value), Sheffield borderline bust - made $36M, posted $21-ish M of value, a myriad of smaller relief pitcher busts (Pedro Felicano and The Farns say hi). Bad trades - Randy Johnson, K.Brown, Nady/Marte, Abreu was useful but never earned his contract while in NY etc. Most of Philly's success has been the result of drafting & producing their own players and a couple of well executed trades with Halladay, and getting HOU to pay for half of Oswalt's contract. Pence looks like a good deal so far as well, though they gave up a ton. Victorino Rule 5 draft = excellent. Lidge trade for M.Bourn...not sure who won that one. Cubs/Hendry = bad extensions with Zambrano and a few others. Bad signings with Soriano and Kosuke, and complete failure in drafting positional players (Starlin Castro was an INTL FA signing). White Sox/Kenny = Dunn (so far cringeworthy), bad Peavy trade, bad waiver claim with Rios, a couple good trades with Danks & Floyd, and routinely compiles among the worst farm systems in baseball. Dodgers = mess. Angels + V.Wells = worst trade ever, and Torii Hunter will never earn more than 66% of his 5y/$90M contract. Giants/Sabean = fire-able offense in Zito, and no shortage of vomit on the offensive side (Rowand, Huff, Tejada, Renteria, an aged broken down M.Alou etc), and outstanding & very fortunate SP drafting and cheap bullpen success which is the only reason they won last year. Feel better yet?.....it's not so bad. 2 cash-ins in 8 years and remaining competitive each year is wildly successful.
One word of encourage for Sox fans. Last year, the Bruins blew a 3-0 lead in the playoffs. The very next year, they won the Cup.
Also, how much can Boston sports fans agonize? In the past 10 years, all four of their sports teams have won the championship. Can you say that for any other city?
<<<He wasn't signed to be an elite player, he was signed to be a solid supporting piece and that's what he provided for at least 3 & 1/2 years of his 5 year contract. >>>
Anybody that gets paid $14m per season is paid to be ELITE. "Solid supporting pieces" make between $6-$10m. Like I said, any formula that has J.D. Drew producing $14m of output (or Beltre producing $28m in 2010) is flawed in some way.
I realize RBIs are an arbitrary stat, but to never have more than 70 in any season hitting in a lineup full of Theo's OBP guys is awful.
Another poster mentioned Papelbon's lack of a 2nd pitch. I like Papelbon, and I hope that the Sox are able to bring him back for 3 more years (no more than that), but the fact that he never developed that splitter in a strikeout pitch really frustrates me. There are very few closers (one?) that can get by with just 1 pitch.
In my humble opinion ( and dare I say this ) I think its time for Francona to get the boot.
Although I love the Red Sox, I think this team is "Soft" Im not saying they need a Drill instructor for a skipper but MAYBE someone who is a little tougher than Tito, Hell I love the guy for managing 2 World Series victories in his tenure but the past few years have been one big letdown after another, this year being the worst since 2008. I think these guys need to be "Managed" and not coddled as Francona does so well.
Just my feelings on the subject maybe Im wrong and just pissed off I dont know, I love the Sox -always have and always will and know full well that they will bring you to the brink of insanity more times than not, but that comes with the territory of being a Sox fan.
<< <i><<<He wasn't signed to be an elite player, he was signed to be a solid supporting piece and that's what he provided for at least 3 & 1/2 years of his 5 year contract. >>>
Anybody that gets paid $14m per season is paid to be ELITE. "Solid supporting pieces" make between $6-$10m. Like I said, any formula that has J.D. Drew producing $14m of output (or Beltre producing $28m in 2010) is flawed in some way.
I realize RBIs are an arbitrary stat, but to never have more than 70 in any season hitting in a lineup full of Theo's OBP guys is awful.
Another poster mentioned Papelbon's lack of a 2nd pitch. I like Papelbon, and I hope that the Sox are able to bring him back for 3 more years (no more than that), but the fact that he never developed that splitter in a strikeout pitch really frustrates me. There are very few closers (one?) that can get by with just 1 pitch. >>
Well you have a much different opinion of elite level players then. Seems to be $18M on the low end to A-rod money in the current economic climate for elite level players. Outside of Jose Bautista, who was still a wildcard when he signed his $15M per year deal, name one (non relief pitcher) "elite" post ARB FA who makes around $14m. The only player I can think of who might fit that mold is Victor Martinez at $12M, but personally I wouldn't place a DH who hits 12 HRs elite. If he were still a catcher and hit .320+ every year, maybe.
<< <i><<<and it's now time to move on to try and rescue Brady (with his new haircut) >>>
I know you meant this as a joke, but unfortunately for too many New England/Boston fans, that is a serious point of discussion.
If anything comes out of this Red Sox collapse, it is that it will snap Boston fans out of their complacency. We need a good come-uppance every so often (hopefully not too often) to really appreciate the winning we've enjoyed for the past decade.
I miss the days when the panic button was always within arm's reach. >>
I have been through it all with the Red Sox and the Patriots so have earned the right to be critical of them both.
I was there in the fifty's and saw the Red Sox play when there were only a thousand or so of us there on a cold drizzily day in April.
I was there when the Patriots were playing when they did not even have their own field to play on.
I was there for the 1st exibition game at the old Foxboro stadium when the toilets were not even working.
pitboss - I think you misinterpreted my post. I was criticizing the Boston/New England "pink hat" fans that find Brady's hair compelling sports talk conversation, or who go to Sox games to sing Sweet Caroline, or start the wave in the 7th inning of a 3-2 game.
lane - perhaps I was a little overzealous in my "elite" comment - $14m isn't for elite players, but it should be reserved for players that can provide more production than what Drew gave them offensively in his 5 years in Boston....
I agree with you on VMart, there's no way a part-time catcher, mostly-DH is worth $12.5m with his numbers.
Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder.
<< <i>Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder. >>
I don't care a lick about soccer, but ditto everything you said.
<< <i>Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder. >>
I don't care a lick about soccer, but ditto everything you said. >>
It just seems like a play lifted directly from one of the idiot Steinbrenners' playbook. Who amongst people who really know baseball honestly think it's ever 'the manager's fault', particularly when that manager has a distinguished record? Are there any baseball guys out there who make evidence-based decisions and who have IQs over 105 that ever think firing an historically successful manager is a good idea?
<< <i>Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder. >>
I don't care a lick about soccer, but ditto everything you said. >>
It just seems like a play lifted directly from one of the idiot Steinbrenners' playbook. Who amongst people who really know baseball honestly think it's ever 'the manager's fault', particularly when that manager has a distinguished record? Are there any baseball guys out there who make evidence-based decisions and who have IQs over 105 that ever think firing an historically successful manager is a good idea? >>
I'm on the outside looking in, but it seems like now that the team doesn't have that string leadership core, Francona isn't able to pick up the slack. he had most of his success when "The Idiots" were pretty much self-motivating. That being said, no one can win with that rotation.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
that's assuming Francona wanted to return, which according to most reports, he did not sound like he wanted to. I believe he had mutual options for 2012 and 2013 so it's not like he's going to be fired or have to resign. Just a parting of ways. Rosenthal has indicated that Francona "has had his fill of the whole thing" in Boston. Cafardo claims a "mutual split".
<< <i>I'm on the outside looking in, but it seems like now that the team doesn't have that string leadership core, Francona isn't able to pick up the slack. he had most of his success when "The Idiots" were pretty much self-motivating. That being said, no one can win with that rotation. >>
I kinda see where you're going with that, but it was my impression that "The Idiot" days were not exactly easy days to manage the Red Sox. Let's not forget that those days included extra-ordinary personalities like Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling who weren't always saying or doing the right things and had, at times, rubbed their teammates the wrong way. Oh, and of course in 2004 there was also that little fiasco involving that one shortstop that everyone in Boston had loved for a decade . . .
Millar would be a fun manager to have and his press conferences would be as entertaining as the games themselves, but Jason Varitek would be a better manager, I think. I just don't know what the dynamic would be like if you had a player go directly from being a peer to manager like that.
I think Francona leaving is the best move at this point, the guy did not have control of this team and thats the bottom line. The problem wasnt all Tito's fault by any stretch but we can maybe all agree that these are the reasons the Sox brought the term embaresment to new levels...
1-JD Drew being the worst long term signing ever 2- John Lackys attitude along with horrid pitching 3-Crawford not being able to deal with performing in the spot light 4-Gonzo not being able to handle the pressure of AL East BB 5-Daniel Bard being horrible when it mattered most 6-Youk inabilty to stay healthy-I do give him a pass because he plays hard
Assuming Francona is indeed gone, we don't know if he asked that his contract not be extended, or if in fact John Henry really dumped him. Either way, I think it is not the solution IMO.
While Tito may have had a seat at the table when the signings of the non-performers took place, he (I'm certain) was not the final say so on whoever got signed or didn't. Did Tito sign Crawford, Drew, Lackey or others? No, of course not. They were signed (with much fanfare) by Theo Epstein and with the blessing of those at the upper levels of the Red Sox management. Should I go back in history and toss in Matt Clement and Eric Gagme? DiceK anyone, anyone? 100 mil sucked up like a thousand horsepower vacuum cleaner.
Tito did not swing at one pitch for those 162 games, he didn't strike out or pop up or hit into the ad nauseum double plays we all witnessed throughout the season. He didn't pitch one pitch for those 162 games, the HIGHLY paid "professional" players tossed those balls, not Tito. Tito could only field the players he was given to work with, no more, no less. He is no more responsible for the HORRIFIC LOB stat and dismal RISP that did not score than I am. The Red Sox players did all that, not Tito...all Tito did was chew untold pieces of Dubble Bubble bubble gum with a wad of tobacco...clearly he chewed hundreds...his teeth must be in need of a serious cleaning at this point!!
As for the grumblings now heard about Youkilis being a "problem" in the clubhouse (google red sox websites for this), why didn't Varitek hold a few "come to Jesus" meetings with the team only? Isn't that why he wears the "c" on his uniform? When it was obvious the whole thing was rapidly sliding into the toilet, did anyone inside the team step up and fire the team up akin to what Millar did in the "cowboy up" scenario? Seems like the whole damn bunch got too full of themselves and thought they were invincible.
Sadly the mentality is to soothe the masses, somebody has gotta get hung and it sure as hell looks like they hung Tito. Tis clearly a sad day for Red Sox Nation, one that will go down in the history books as the September Implosion, or September Meltdown, take your pick. We must never EVER forget the incredible, and I do indeed mean INCREDIBLE comeback the Red Sox team accomplished in '04. This is now known as the greatest comeback in the history of baseball...then the WS gets won again in '07...now who was the manager for those two miraculous events? Tito Francona.
While Theo can sit in front of cameras and spout "ask all you want", or words to that effect, it is indeed odd that there is apparently no heat coming his way in terms of job security. Why so will forever remain a mystery to me. He can do all the metric crap and listen to the new temperature thingy, but his long term signings will haunt the Red Sox. He has paid an enormous amount of money for future performance that the Red Sox are locked into for years to come from LLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOZZZZZZERS. Do the math yourself and then review the 2011 performance for the top paid players...Bang for buck? I think not.
I will always be a Red Sox fan, been one since 1951...I've seen some beautiful things in Fenway, but events like this that make me think management often times has no clue and only wants to protect themselves and sweep stuff under the rug, it's scapegoat time. It will be interesting to see who crosses the white lines next April...I'll still be pulling for them, but this past week was like a deja vu of Bucky Dent and Aaron Boone all rolled into one.
A tip of the cap to the Orioles and Rays...you out played us, out hit us, out hustled us, out pitched us and pretty much kicked our asses. I would not have believed it had I not witnessed the implosion with my own eyes...like seeing the ball go through Bill Buckner's legs. A horrible reality.
Time to focus elsewhere, gotta let this go. Happy Holidays to all.
Cheer up Sox fans. This whole meltdown may have been heartbreaking to watch but in the end good will ultimately come out of it. At the very least it'll weed out the true, dedicated fans from the Pink Hats and bandwagon brigade and we all know the Sox have hordes of those.
At the least you've got the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins, all excellent teams and all legitimate championship contenders
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
It's a sad day for the Red Sox. They will have to search for a long time to find someone on the level of Francona as a manager. The only thing that makes it a little easier for me to digest are the reports that Francona wanted out himself.
I don't know if it is good or bad that Tito is out. He seemed like he did not want to be here anymore and was just tired of being the manager of the Sox. I just remember many of the previous managers of the Sox and they can't hold a candle to Terry.
<< <i>I complained all year about some of the moves he would make so I am sure I was not the only one seeing what was going on. >>
Wait for the next manager, everyone will camplain also. It is a no win situation for a manager with so many games being played. you have to look at the whole body of work.
<< <i>Millar would be a fun manager to have and his press conferences would be as entertaining as the games themselves, but Jason Varitek would be a better manager, I think. I just don't know what the dynamic would be like if you had a player go directly from being a peer to manager like that. >>
I do not believe Varitek would be a good manager right now. He too was complacent (and complicit) with the ho-hum attitude and lack of attention to detail exhibited by the Red Sox all year. Failure to run out "routine" grounders or fly balls, failure to pay attention to the game situation (like trying to steal third with two outs, getting picked off with a couple outs and your best hitter up), and all kinds of other situations in which the Sox proved themselves not committed to or not smart in the nuances of the game-- well those are all leadership and managerial issues. Varitek failed as a captain and Francoma failed as a manager.
Speaking of leadership and management, with Francoma gone, I would expect and hope that other complacent and complicit staff follow: Hale, Bogar, whomever was on the "conditioning" staff, Curt Young, and Ron Johnson. Got to get the whole lot of them out and get people in who realize game 48, game 111, and game 125 (even if it is the second game of a double header) are all just as important to making the playoffs as game 162
<< <i>I still say give Millar a chance at it. He is the one who lit the fire under them in 04.
He can do it again as the manager, >>
I think only Youkilis, Ortiz, Varitek, and Wakefield remain from that team...although I prefer to see only Ortiz and a better-conditioned Youkilis return in 2012. If Youkilis doesn't do some serious work on his conditioning, find him a new home.
You guys are way off base thinking about someone like Kevin Millar as a potential manager. The Sox are going to hire an experienced, "big-time" manager, who can handle the clubhouse egos and the expectations of Red Sox Nation. Who that guy is - I have no idea. He'll have some big shoes to fill, and a lot of pressure on him to win right away.
<< <i>He is as good as anyone else they will come up with. Name me someone who can handle the Boston scene .
By the way you should see all the balloons in the air today with the start of the International balloon festival in Albuquerque. It sure is a sight. >>
You just lost all credibility with the Millar statement.
Comments
OK, it's now the Patriots' turn to win a championship. Bill, get your sh*t together on defense, now!
<< <i>Maybe Papelbon could try something other than a fastball once in a while? >>
No sh*t. I was yelling "throw a f**king breaking ball"!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe Papelbon could try something other than a fastball once in a while? >>
No sh*t. I was yelling "throw a f**king breaking ball"!!!
Nah, you wouldn't want to do that. After all, just because the entire league knows Chris Davis can't hit anything but fastballs....
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>one more thing, Braves were just as bad, if not worse than the Red Sox down the stretch....they blew a ten game lead if my math is correct.....neither team deserved to go on to the post season the way they played down the stretch. >>
I agree that the Braves were just as bad(if not worse) down the stretch and didn't deserve the wildcard....but look at the Red Sox roster compared to the Braves. Most people thought at the beginning of the season the Braves on paper should at least make the playoffs....but many more thought this might be the best Red Sox team ever! The outcome is the same for both and the Braves are certainly disappointed...but Red Sox Nation has really got to be hurting today!
<< <i>Adrian Beltre was a 1-year stopgap measure, I don't count that. If he truly thought Beltre was great, he would have given him a long-term deal instead of a 1-year deal, waited for Ortiz' deal to expire this year, and made Youk a full-time DH, while Adrian Gonzalez played 1st. Although, to be honest, I agreed with the 1-year deal, because I always thought Beltre was a dog that only played during contract years. This year he proved me (and Theo) wrong.
I will give Theo full credit for his drafting skills, he is excellent at it. But guys like Lackey, Crawford, and Drew played in the major leagues for 7+ years, and he missed on all of them. You'd think being able to evaluate a player that has faced major league competition would be easier to do, but clearly it is a weak spot for him.
I guess Theo visits the same web site you do to determine % of contract earned because he said the same thing you just did about Drew. While Drew is good defensively, and perhaps doesn't run into outs, I want to punch something when I hear that Drew nearly lived up to his contract. Frankly, I can't remember a single defensive play that stands our for me that he made in his 5 years here. Not a diving catch in the gap, not robbing someone of a home run, not throwing out a runner in a key game. I didn't realize being fundamentally sound (but not exceptional) defensively and on the basepaths warranted $14m/year. >>
I doubt Theo does very much site visiting when he has the Godfather on the payroll. For starters, there was no place for Beltre after acquiring Gonzalez, so it wouldn't have come to that. Regardless, it still counts....as should all of his decisions to walk away from Boston beloved aging former players such as Damon, Pete Martinez, Nomah, J.Bay, Man-Ram to an extent etc when the vast majority of the fanbase wanted all of those guys to return. I didn't like the Crawford signing for no other reason than he doesn't have a suitable spot in that lineup so long as Pedroia soaks up the 2-hole. That said, probably a bit early to call that one a bust. Like it or not Drew wasn't a bust either. A bust is Carl Pavano with the Yankees. Drew put up his contract value in the first 4 years. If you're judging his defense on diving catches and other meaningless output then maybe he can't help you. But he was +42 in total zone and +36.8 UZR/150 over his BOS career. He wasn't signed to be an elite player, he was signed to be a solid supporting piece and that's what he provided for at least 3 & 1/2 years of his 5 year contract. Btw, every GM from a large market (spending) team has a bad FA record...at least aside from Amaro who hasn't been there long enough to fairly judge....though the Ibanez signing is a minus. Not sure who's responsible for extending Blanton. Anyway, post-ARB FAs tend to rarely earn their contracts. For example, here's the list of $100+ million dollar contracts.
A-rod - 10/$275
A-rod - 10/$252
Jeter -10/$189
Mauer - 8/$181
Teixeira - 8/$180
Sabathia - 7/$161
ManRam- 8/$160
Tulowitzki - 9/$157
A.Gonzalez - 7/$154
M.Cabrera - 8/$152
Crawford - 7/$142
Helton - 9/$141.5
Johan - 6/$137.5
Soriano - 8/$136
Werth - 7/$126
Zito - 7/$126
V.Wells - 7/$126
R.Howard - 5/$125
Hampton - 8/$121
Cliff Lee - 5/$120
Giambi - 7/$120
Holliday - 7/$120
Beltran - 7/$119
Griffey Jr - 9/$116.5
Braun - 5/$105
K.Brown - 7/$105
Carlos Lee - 6/$100
Pujols - 7/$100
how many of those are or will be considered good signings? The first A-rod contract and Sabathia are out of the equation since the opt outs are in play on those two. A juiced up ManRam was Duquette's signing and all things considered, he didn't quite live up to it. Beltran largely earned his. as did a gassed up Pujols, obviously. So far Holliday and M.Cabrera have...although chronic injuries with Holliday should have JortsNation worried. Teixeira and Howard likely will not as they both trend closer to - 3 True Outcome hitters (HR, BB, K). Mauer and Werth will never earn those contracts and will be closer to the Helton level if they're lucky. Too early on Tulo, Cliff Lee, Santana, A.Gonzalez, Crawford, and Braun to judge. Aside from those in progress, I see 2 that have truly worked out so far in Pujols and Beltran.
Now you can compare Theo's tenure to that of the Yankees/Cashman's resume over Espstein's reign. For starters, Cashman can match Lackey with Burnett. Too early to call on Teixeira, but that one, like A-Rod, is not going to end well. I understand Jeter's value to the franchise, but he was massively overpaid in both contracts. The second Posada extension = guh. Nick Johnson was a bust. 2 bad trades involving Javy Vasquez. Contreras = guh. R.Soriano no matter how it ends is a waste. Probably even value with the J.Damon contract though his value, like Granderson, is inflated by the 200 foot RF porch. H.Matsui only earned his salary in 2 of the 7 years he was in NY. Giambi only earned his contract in his first 3 years solely as the result of his contract being back-loaded. Pavano & Igawa = complete busts. Mussina even value more or less (made $100m and posted $106M value), Sheffield borderline bust - made $36M, posted $21-ish M of value, a myriad of smaller relief pitcher busts (Pedro Felicano and The Farns say hi). Bad trades - Randy Johnson, K.Brown, Nady/Marte, Abreu was useful but never earned his contract while in NY etc. Most of Philly's success has been the result of drafting & producing their own players and a couple of well executed trades with Halladay, and getting HOU to pay for half of Oswalt's contract. Pence looks like a good deal so far as well, though they gave up a ton. Victorino Rule 5 draft = excellent. Lidge trade for M.Bourn...not sure who won that one. Cubs/Hendry = bad extensions with Zambrano and a few others. Bad signings with Soriano and Kosuke, and complete failure in drafting positional players (Starlin Castro was an INTL FA signing). White Sox/Kenny = Dunn (so far cringeworthy), bad Peavy trade, bad waiver claim with Rios, a couple good trades with Danks & Floyd, and routinely compiles among the worst farm systems in baseball. Dodgers = mess. Angels + V.Wells = worst trade ever, and Torii Hunter will never earn more than 66% of his 5y/$90M contract. Giants/Sabean = fire-able offense in Zito, and no shortage of vomit on the offensive side (Rowand, Huff, Tejada, Renteria, an aged broken down M.Alou etc), and outstanding & very fortunate SP drafting and cheap bullpen success which is the only reason they won last year. Feel better yet?.....it's not so bad. 2 cash-ins in 8 years and remaining competitive each year is wildly successful.
Also, how much can Boston sports fans agonize? In the past 10 years, all four of their sports teams have won the championship. Can you say that for any other city?
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
Anybody that gets paid $14m per season is paid to be ELITE. "Solid supporting pieces" make between $6-$10m. Like I said, any formula that has J.D. Drew producing $14m of output (or Beltre producing $28m in 2010) is flawed in some way.
I realize RBIs are an arbitrary stat, but to never have more than 70 in any season hitting in a lineup full of Theo's OBP guys is awful.
Another poster mentioned Papelbon's lack of a 2nd pitch. I like Papelbon, and I hope that the Sox are able to bring him back for 3 more years (no more than that), but the fact that he never developed that splitter in a strikeout pitch really frustrates me. There are very few closers (one?) that can get by with just 1 pitch.
Although I love the Red Sox, I think this team is "Soft" Im not saying they need a Drill instructor for a skipper but MAYBE someone who is a little tougher than Tito, Hell I love the guy for managing 2 World Series victories in his tenure but the past few years have been one big letdown after another, this year being the worst since 2008. I think these guys need to be "Managed" and not coddled as Francona does so well.
Just my feelings on the subject maybe Im wrong and just pissed off I dont know, I love the Sox -always have and always will and know full well that they will bring you to the brink of insanity more times than not, but that comes with the territory of being a Sox fan.
<< <i><<<He wasn't signed to be an elite player, he was signed to be a solid supporting piece and that's what he provided for at least 3 & 1/2 years of his 5 year contract. >>>
Anybody that gets paid $14m per season is paid to be ELITE. "Solid supporting pieces" make between $6-$10m. Like I said, any formula that has J.D. Drew producing $14m of output (or Beltre producing $28m in 2010) is flawed in some way.
I realize RBIs are an arbitrary stat, but to never have more than 70 in any season hitting in a lineup full of Theo's OBP guys is awful.
Another poster mentioned Papelbon's lack of a 2nd pitch. I like Papelbon, and I hope that the Sox are able to bring him back for 3 more years (no more than that), but the fact that he never developed that splitter in a strikeout pitch really frustrates me. There are very few closers (one?) that can get by with just 1 pitch. >>
Well you have a much different opinion of elite level players then. Seems to be $18M on the low end to A-rod money in the current economic climate for elite level players. Outside of Jose Bautista, who was still a wildcard when he signed his $15M per year deal, name one (non relief pitcher) "elite" post ARB FA who makes around $14m. The only player I can think of who might fit that mold is Victor Martinez at $12M, but personally I wouldn't place a DH who hits 12 HRs elite. If he were still a catcher and hit .320+ every year, maybe.
<< <i><<<and it's now time to move on to try and rescue Brady (with his new haircut) >>>
I know you meant this as a joke, but unfortunately for too many New England/Boston fans, that is a serious point of discussion.
If anything comes out of this Red Sox collapse, it is that it will snap Boston fans out of their complacency. We need a good come-uppance every so often (hopefully not too often) to really appreciate the winning we've enjoyed for the past decade.
I miss the days when the panic button was always within arm's reach. >>
I have been through it all with the Red Sox and the Patriots so have earned the right to be critical of them both.
I was there in the fifty's and saw the Red Sox play when there were only a thousand or so of us there on a cold drizzily day in April.
I was there when the Patriots were playing when they did not even have their own field to play on.
I was there for the 1st exibition game at the old Foxboro stadium when the toilets were not even working.
I was there for Butch Songin's first game.
So believe me I have earned the right.
Lafayette Grading Set
lane - perhaps I was a little overzealous in my "elite" comment - $14m isn't for elite players, but it should be reserved for players that can provide more production than what Drew gave them offensively in his 5 years in Boston....
I agree with you on VMart, there's no way a part-time catcher, mostly-DH is worth $12.5m with his numbers.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder.
<< <i>Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder. >>
I don't care a lick about soccer, but ditto everything you said.
<< <i>
<< <i>Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder. >>
I don't care a lick about soccer, but ditto everything you said. >>
It just seems like a play lifted directly from one of the idiot Steinbrenners' playbook. Who amongst people who really know baseball honestly think it's ever 'the manager's fault', particularly when that manager has a distinguished record? Are there any baseball guys out there who make evidence-based decisions and who have IQs over 105 that ever think firing an historically successful manager is a good idea?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tito just got canned. That's a horrible firing, and personally I expected more from John Henry than a knee-jerk 'kill the manager!' response to this September swoon. What, a guy wins two WS rings and then suddenly forgets to manage? Give me a break. I thought FSG was smarter than this.
I don't care about the Red Sox one way or another, but this kind of thing makes me nervous because Henry also owns Liverpool. I was hoping we'd have more enlightened leadership than that which most teams European soccer teams have to endure, but now I have to wonder. >>
I don't care a lick about soccer, but ditto everything you said. >>
It just seems like a play lifted directly from one of the idiot Steinbrenners' playbook. Who amongst people who really know baseball honestly think it's ever 'the manager's fault', particularly when that manager has a distinguished record? Are there any baseball guys out there who make evidence-based decisions and who have IQs over 105 that ever think firing an historically successful manager is a good idea? >>
I'm on the outside looking in, but it seems like now that the team doesn't have that string leadership core, Francona isn't able to pick up the slack. he had most of his success when "The Idiots" were pretty much self-motivating. That being said, no one can win with that rotation.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
Tough town to manage in but onward and ,hopefully, upward.
<< <i>I'm on the outside looking in, but it seems like now that the team doesn't have that string leadership core, Francona isn't able to pick up the slack. he had most of his success when "The Idiots" were pretty much self-motivating. That being said, no one can win with that rotation. >>
I kinda see where you're going with that, but it was my impression that "The Idiot" days were not exactly easy days to manage the Red Sox. Let's not forget that those days included extra-ordinary personalities like Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling who weren't always saying or doing the right things and had, at times, rubbed their teammates the wrong way. Oh, and of course in 2004 there was also that little fiasco involving that one shortstop that everyone in Boston had loved for a decade . . .
How about Kevin Millar for manager?
1-JD Drew being the worst long term signing ever
2- John Lackys attitude along with horrid pitching
3-Crawford not being able to deal with performing in the spot light
4-Gonzo not being able to handle the pressure of AL East BB
5-Daniel Bard being horrible when it mattered most
6-Youk inabilty to stay healthy-I do give him a pass because he plays hard
Assuming Francona is indeed gone, we don't know if he asked that his contract not be extended, or if in fact John Henry really dumped him. Either way, I think it is not the solution IMO.
While Tito may have had a seat at the table when the signings of the non-performers took place, he (I'm certain) was not the final say so on whoever got signed or didn't. Did Tito sign Crawford, Drew, Lackey or others? No, of course not. They were signed (with much fanfare) by Theo Epstein and with the blessing of those at the upper levels of the Red Sox management. Should I go back in history and toss in Matt Clement and Eric Gagme? DiceK anyone, anyone? 100 mil sucked up like a thousand horsepower vacuum cleaner.
Tito did not swing at one pitch for those 162 games, he didn't strike out or pop up or hit into the ad nauseum double plays we all witnessed throughout the season. He didn't pitch one pitch for those 162 games, the HIGHLY paid "professional" players tossed those balls, not Tito. Tito could only field the players he was given to work with, no more, no less. He is no more responsible for the HORRIFIC LOB stat and dismal RISP that did not score than I am. The Red Sox players did all that, not Tito...all Tito did was chew untold pieces of Dubble Bubble bubble gum with a wad of tobacco...clearly he chewed hundreds...his teeth must be in need of a serious cleaning at this point!!
As for the grumblings now heard about Youkilis being a "problem" in the clubhouse (google red sox websites for this), why didn't Varitek hold a few "come to Jesus" meetings with the team only? Isn't that why he wears the "c" on his uniform? When it was obvious the whole thing was rapidly sliding into the toilet, did anyone inside the team step up and fire the team up akin to what Millar did in the "cowboy up" scenario? Seems like the whole damn bunch got too full of themselves and thought they were invincible.
Sadly the mentality is to soothe the masses, somebody has gotta get hung and it sure as hell looks like they hung Tito. Tis clearly a sad day for Red Sox Nation, one that will go down in the history books as the September Implosion, or September Meltdown, take your pick. We must never EVER forget the incredible, and I do indeed mean INCREDIBLE comeback the Red Sox team accomplished in '04. This is now known as the greatest comeback in the history of baseball...then the WS gets won again in '07...now who was the manager for those two miraculous events? Tito Francona.
While Theo can sit in front of cameras and spout "ask all you want", or words to that effect, it is indeed odd that there is apparently no heat coming his way in terms of job security. Why so will forever remain a mystery to me. He can do all the metric crap and listen to the new temperature thingy, but his long term signings will haunt the Red Sox. He has paid an enormous amount of money for future performance that the Red Sox are locked into for years to come from LLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOZZZZZZERS. Do the math yourself and then review the 2011 performance for the top paid players...Bang for buck? I think not.
I will always be a Red Sox fan, been one since 1951...I've seen some beautiful things in Fenway, but events like this that make me think management often times has no clue and only wants to protect themselves and sweep stuff under the rug, it's scapegoat time. It will be interesting to see who crosses the white lines next April...I'll still be pulling for them, but this past week was like a deja vu of Bucky Dent and Aaron Boone all rolled into one.
A tip of the cap to the Orioles and Rays...you out played us, out hit us, out hustled us, out pitched us and pretty much kicked our asses. I would not have believed it had I not witnessed the implosion with my own eyes...like seeing the ball go through Bill Buckner's legs. A horrible reality.
Time to focus elsewhere, gotta let this go. Happy Holidays to all.
Al
At the least you've got the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins, all excellent teams and all legitimate championship contenders
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I complained all year about some of the moves he would make so I am sure I was not the only one seeing what was going on.
Sandwiched in between that and September the Sox played 670 + ball.
Better luck next time.
<< <i>I complained all year about some of the moves he would make so I am sure I was not the only one seeing what was going on. >>
Wait for the next manager, everyone will camplain also. It is a no win situation for a manager with so many games being played. you have to look at the whole body of work.
<< <i>Millar would be a fun manager to have and his press conferences would be as entertaining as the games themselves, but Jason Varitek would be a better manager, I think. I just don't know what the dynamic would be like if you had a player go directly from being a peer to manager like that. >>
I do not believe Varitek would be a good manager right now. He too was complacent (and complicit) with the ho-hum attitude and lack of attention to detail exhibited by the Red Sox all year. Failure to run out "routine" grounders or fly balls, failure to pay attention to the game situation (like trying to steal third with two outs, getting picked off with a couple outs and your best hitter up), and all kinds of other situations in which the Sox proved themselves not committed to or not smart in the nuances of the game-- well those are all leadership and managerial issues. Varitek failed as a captain and Francoma failed as a manager.
Speaking of leadership and management, with Francoma gone, I would expect and hope that other complacent and complicit staff follow: Hale, Bogar, whomever was on the "conditioning" staff, Curt Young, and Ron Johnson. Got to get the whole lot of them out and get people in who realize game 48, game 111, and game 125 (even if it is the second game of a double header) are all just as important to making the playoffs as game 162
I still say give Millar a chance at it. He is the one who lit the fire under them in 04.
He can do it again as the manager,
<< <i>I still say give Millar a chance at it. He is the one who lit the fire under them in 04.
He can do it again as the manager, >>
I think only Youkilis, Ortiz, Varitek, and Wakefield remain from that team...although I prefer to see only Ortiz and a better-conditioned Youkilis return in 2012.
If Youkilis doesn't do some serious work on his conditioning, find him a new home.
<< <i>I still say give Millar a chance at it. He is the one who lit the fire under them in 04.
He can do it again as the manager, >>
Please tell me you are joking.
He is as good as anyone else they will come up with. Name me someone who can handle the Boston scene .
By the way you should see all the balloons in the air today with the start of the International balloon festival in Albuquerque. It sure is a sight.
I could do it but I am too old to travel and I like to be in my own bed by 10 every night.
<< <i>I could do it but I am too old to travel and I like to be in my own bed by 10 every night. >>
Hey, Jack Mckeon made it work!
<< <i>Perkdog >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Perkdog >>
I would not mind getting run out of town with 2 or 3 million dollars. Maybe I should apply!
<< <i>He is as good as anyone else they will come up with. Name me someone who can handle the Boston scene .
By the way you should see all the balloons in the air today with the start of the International balloon festival in Albuquerque. It sure is a sight. >>
You just lost all credibility with the Millar statement.
I have followed them too many years to try and figure out who they will pick as their new manager. I am sure they will come up with a decent
manager from somewhere. They need someone who will take names and kick some a$$. These guys have had it too easy for the last 8 years.
He should get a shot.