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What does all this social unrest mean ?
edmundfitzgerald
Posts: 4,306 ✭✭
Middle East ?
Wisconsin ?
Have we seen this before ? Is it corrupt government vs. the working people ? Will it be Russia, Brazil, and Mexico next ?
Will it all just pass like the bird flu ?
Please help the uneducated
Oh yeah, how does it affect the price of PM's ??? There, now it's not OT
Wisconsin ?
Have we seen this before ? Is it corrupt government vs. the working people ? Will it be Russia, Brazil, and Mexico next ?
Will it all just pass like the bird flu ?
Please help the uneducated
Oh yeah, how does it affect the price of PM's ??? There, now it's not OT
0
Comments
Quite a few of these countries pay up to 50% of their income on food. Where we in North America pay about 20%.
With prices going up and paying already 50% on food, it's just too much for these people to bear.
It's the final straw to break the camel's back (no pun intended for our desert friends).
In the long run, I think it will be a good thing for these countries, but in the short term, there will definitely be chaos and confusion for those involved.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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that it will.
Is today the best day in the history of mankind, or the worst? Or somewhere in between?
When in history was it better, more peaceful, was there less "social unrest" and "chaos" than today, right now, right this minute?
My guess is, everyone from the past would say you're living in a miraculous paradise, and you don't even realize it.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
America has realized that unions have left ruin everywhere they have been prevalent in this day and age.
The middle east is about basic human rights being non-existant, and food becoming more and more scarce.
<< <i>I think most of this unrest has been set off recently by rising prices (inflation).
Quite a few of these countries pay up to 50% of their income on food. Where we in North America pay about 20%.
With prices going up and paying already 50% on food, it's just too much for these people to bear.
It's the final straw to break the camel's back (no pun intended for our desert friends).
In the long run, I think it will be a good thing for these countries, but in the short term, there will definitely be chaos and confusion for those involved. >>
The rising price of food in the middle east is the most obvious cause for the rebellion over there. Take away a man's ability to
feed his family and there will be a revolt. Interesting that the U.S. and it's subsidized corn crops allows for super cheap food here
in the U.S. I have to believe that plays a large part in keeping the sheeple content to just grumble a little rather than
rise up in real protest as prices on everything else continue to climb.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>Wisconsin is not working people versus the government, it is the overcompensated government workers versus the taxpayers.
America has realized that unions have left ruin everywhere they have been prevalent in this day and age.
The middle east is about basic human rights being non-existant, and food becoming more and more scarce. >>
Very well summarized.
roadrunner
Oil is spiking past $105.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
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<< <i>Wisconsin is not working people versus the government, it is the overcompensated government workers versus the taxpayers.
America has realized that unions have left ruin everywhere they have been prevalent in this day and age.
The middle east is about basic human rights being non-existant, and food becoming more and more scarce. >>
That sums it up completely. Why should state workers make more than non government workers make for the same (but less of)work. We
have all seen how govt workers go about their jobs. (5 people supervise while 1 works)
<< <i>Sweet Lord, two Libyan pilots just defected the country in their planes after being ordered to bomb the protestors.
Oil is spiking past $105. >>
Reuters Link
While it is easy to kick around the unions, in all fairness our city *failed* to pay their share into their pensions. They underfunded and hoped investments in the stock market would cover the difference.
And now that it hasn't, did that failure really cost the Mayor anything? The City Manager? Who is held accountable?
TD
<< <i>Though not Wisconsin, our region has dramatic shortfalls in pension assets vs liabilities. That's what happens when interest rates fall. Wealth is transferred from those intending to live off of interest, to those paying interest to live.
While it is easy to kick around the unions, in all fairness our city *failed* to pay their share into their pensions. They underfunded and hoped investments in the stock market would cover the difference.
And now that it hasn't, did that failure really cost the Mayor anything? The City Manager? Who is held accountable? >>
Unfortunately its the cops, firemen, teachers and paramedics that are being kicked around and being portrayed as greedy tax dollar sucking leeches. I wish at least ONE politician would have the balls to go to the podium and tell John Q. Taxpayer the truth.....that most of the blame lies with "funding holidays" instituted by the ELECTED OFFICIALS. When times were good, and the markets were booming, cities and states decided to NOT contribute to pension plans via these funding holidays. The philosophy was that since these pension funds were at adequate levels of funding, they would use the money they were supposed to contribute on something else......like stainless steel beans and flower planters for example.
<< <i>It means gas up immediately!!!!
TD >>
10-4. I topped off the old heating oil tank 2 weeks ago and filled both cars this weekend. At times like this I wish I had a 2nd oil tank in the basement. The run in oil could go all the way to October.
roadrunner
If it happened in China, all those officials would be imprisoned or executed. It definitely should cost them something....maybe give back all their salary for the years they were in office plus damages. They obviously didn't serve the people. We can make room in prison for corporate heads, bankers, politicians, elected officials, pension fund overseers, etc. by letting out all the drug users and petty thieves. We couldn't mess things up any worse than they "smart" guys did already. Both of my US Senators decided to step down than to face what's coming at them down the road. And this way they are sure to keep all the spoils of the past 20-30 yrs. One of them appears ready to line up a $1+ MILL/yr gig as the top Hollywood Movie lobbyist. What better place to keep the sheeple lined up than in Hollywood.
Why isn't Wall Street (and our elected officials) in jail?
roadrunner
<< <i>
Unfortunately its the cops, firemen, teachers and paramedics that are being kicked around and being portrayed as greedy tax dollar sucking leeches. I wish at least ONE politician would have the balls to go to the podium and tell John Q. Taxpayer the truth.....that most of the blame lies with "funding holidays" instituted by the ELECTED OFFICIALS. When times were good, and the markets were booming, cities and states decided to NOT contribute to pension plans via these funding holidays. The philosophy was that since these pension funds were at adequate levels of funding, they would use the money they were supposed to contribute on something else......like stainless steel beans and flower planters for example. >>
And in New Jersey when one of the unions sued the state on the grounds that they did not hold up their end of the bargain, the union
lost in court to the state. Funny (sad) thing is that the unions helped elect these officials who eventually screwed them. New Jersey has had a long run of democratic run houses and governors that the unions have widely supported.
<< <i>
While it is easy to kick around the unions, in all fairness our city *failed* to pay their share into their pensions. They underfunded and hoped investments in the stock market would cover the difference.
Who is held accountable? >>
No one is accountable in New Jersey. The courts ruled that the state doesn't need to fund the pension program that it promised it would.
<< <i>
<< <i>Though not Wisconsin, our region has dramatic shortfalls in pension assets vs liabilities. That's what happens when interest rates fall. Wealth is transferred from those intending to live off of interest, to those paying interest to live.
While it is easy to kick around the unions, in all fairness our city *failed* to pay their share into their pensions. They underfunded and hoped investments in the stock market would cover the difference.
And now that it hasn't, did that failure really cost the Mayor anything? The City Manager? Who is held accountable? >>
Unfortunately its the cops, firemen, teachers and paramedics that are being kicked around and being portrayed as greedy tax dollar sucking leeches. I wish at least ONE politician would have the balls to go to the podium and tell John Q. Taxpayer the truth.....that most of the blame lies with "funding holidays" instituted by the ELECTED OFFICIALS. When times were good, and the markets were booming, cities and states decided to NOT contribute to pension plans via these funding holidays. The philosophy was that since these pension funds were at adequate levels of funding, they would use the money they were supposed to contribute on something else......like stainless steel beans and flower planters for example. >>
Phil.......when you retire, you can have the first ten feet of median planter on LaSalle Street south from Madison.
Deal?
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Though not Wisconsin, our region has dramatic shortfalls in pension assets vs liabilities. That's what happens when interest rates fall. Wealth is transferred from those intending to live off of interest, to those paying interest to live.
While it is easy to kick around the unions, in all fairness our city *failed* to pay their share into their pensions. They underfunded and hoped investments in the stock market would cover the difference.
And now that it hasn't, did that failure really cost the Mayor anything? The City Manager? Who is held accountable? >>
Unfortunately its the cops, firemen, teachers and paramedics that are being kicked around and being portrayed as greedy tax dollar sucking leeches. I wish at least ONE politician would have the balls to go to the podium and tell John Q. Taxpayer the truth.....that most of the blame lies with "funding holidays" instituted by the ELECTED OFFICIALS. When times were good, and the markets were booming, cities and states decided to NOT contribute to pension plans via these funding holidays. The philosophy was that since these pension funds were at adequate levels of funding, they would use the money they were supposed to contribute on something else......like stainless steel beans and flower planters for example. >>
Phil.......when you retire, you can have the first ten feet of median planter on LaSalle Street south from Madison.
Deal?
TD >>
I might be lucky to even get THAT much Tom.
<< <i>Wisconsin is not working people versus the government, it is the overcompensated government workers versus the taxpayers.
America has realized that unions have left ruin everywhere they have been prevalent in this day and age.
The middle east is about basic human rights being non-existant, and food becoming more and more scarce. >>
I concur.
<< <i>Though not Wisconsin, our region has dramatic shortfalls in pension assets vs liabilities. That's what happens when interest rates fall. Wealth is transferred from those intending to live off of interest, to those paying interest to live.
While it is easy to kick around the unions, in all fairness our city *failed* to pay their share into their pensions. They underfunded and hoped investments in the stock market would cover the difference.
And now that it hasn't, did that failure really cost the Mayor anything? The City Manager? Who is held accountable? >>
fishcooker, You make a good point here. It sounds like you think outside of the box, instead of just pointing fingers and putting the blame on someone or some group to validate your frustrations with the troublesome times we face. I admit, I do it too. I can spout off about the welfare system for hours on end.
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Buckle in it will be a bumpy ride!
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>Wisconsin is not working people versus the government, it is the overcompensated government workers versus the taxpayers.
America has realized that unions have left ruin everywhere they have been prevalent in this day and age.
The middle east is about basic human rights being non-existant, and food becoming more and more scarce. >>
nice summary. Add the world governments kicking the can down the road for later generations to deal with and you have a good picture of what we face today.
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>
<< <i>Sweet Lord, two Libyan pilots just defected the country in their planes after being ordered to bomb the protestors.
Oil is spiking past $105. >>
Reuters Link >>
Brent crude is $108 now. This is the oil from the North Sea.
West Texas crude is at $97. Is was $89ish on Friday. This is amazing especially with Cushing at or near capacity.
Brent crude is generally higher in the winter as it's harder to harvest in the brutal conditions and storage is generally not at capacity. The trend usually reverses in the warmer months where WTI is higher then Brent.
Make no mistake that the civil unrest in the Middle East has caused more of the price divergence aka premium.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Mideast and Northern Africa same thing. Everyone is calling BS on these dictators for life that are raking off all the cash and leaving the commoners sucking air...for decades. Now the regular guys can't afford food and that's the first item in "food, clothing, shelter"; game over.
The status quo has been patched and glued together for so many decades, both here and abroad, that there is no way to keep it from leaking vital fluids. This is very far from being over.
<< <i>It means gas up immediately!!!!
>>
Oil's up $7 a barrel. That's more than a barrel cost when I started watching it years ago.
Barchart.com is showing silver up $1.92 which is eight times the 1935 price.
Let's be careful out there. We need fundamental change but this means rationalization
more than sacrificing one group or another to the banking monsters or the monsters of
ideology or the harem in Washington.
I'd prefer not to live in interesting times.
<< <i>I'm a parole officer in Illinois. My pension is 50% after 20 years and I pay a significant share of my pay into that. Military gets 50% after 20 years are they the next witch hunt? My brother in law works for Commonwealth Edison. I don't know exactly what his pension plan is but I would trade with him without even knowing. >>
Be careful! Alot of the posters in this thread would like to go on believing that all government employees have some kind of milk and honey retirement deal. Ignorance and misinformation fuels their hatred for us. They read about the former (insert title here) who retired at a $159,000 pension and then landed another government job making $180,000/ year. What they dont understand.....and are unwilling to accept....is that for every 1 well connected "gamer" of the system, there are thousands of us regular folk who will get a simple pension based on years of service and final base pay. Its true....a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch I suppose.
Box of 20
Bush has been blamed for causing many a man to have a lapse in judgement...............that and beer. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I could go on and on...simple fact is we all desire to do the best we can (or like Captain Jack: Take all you can, and give nothing back!), but we seldom consider the impact of what our negotiations have on others. It would truly be an amazing world if we all tried to make sure WE all had enough. I'm not talking about a communist manifesto or some Utopian fantasy...I'm saying we should be concerned about our fellow man-here, and in other countries. After all, how many of us care about the poverty level we help support by purchasing goods at Walmart?
The antidote to "Look out for Number 1" or plain ol' greed is simple: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's been 2,000 years since He said that, and we still don't get it...
<< <i>Well, FWIW: My take on all the issues of today is the old axiom: "Look out for number 1" is to blame. We who pursue our own financial security over everyone else's are really to blame...we expect our elected politicians to be noble and work "for the people" but are shocked when we find them cutting deals that allow them to "look out for number 1." We rage at the people (or groups of people) who negotiate a better deal than we can...we criminalize those who abuse the system (a.k.a. the Bell City Council)...we fantasize about that lucrative sports contract for ourselves or our children (heck, I've caught myself looking forward to what my son or daughter could provide for my retirement!!) without consideration of the millions of fans who must foot that bill...
I could go on and on...simple fact is we all desire to do the best we can (or like Captain Jack: Take all you can, and give nothing back!), but we seldom consider the impact of what our negotiations have on others. It would truly be an amazing world if we all tried to make sure WE all had enough. I'm not talking about a communist manifesto or some Utopian fantasy...I'm saying we should be concerned about our fellow man-here, and in other countries. After all, how many of us care about the poverty level we help support by purchasing goods at Walmart?
The antidote to "Look out for Number 1" or plain ol' greed is simple: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's been 2,000 years since He said that, and we still don't get it... >>
Greed has been institutionalized in the last several years. It's perfectly acceptable
now to destroy thousands of lives and good companies even if there's only a little
profit in it. It's OK to destroy products and customer confidence if you can make a
few pennies in the short term. It's OK to lie and sell worthless financial products
which ruin towns and entire countries if you can afford another vacation home. Rat-
her than putting these people in jail they are assured their bonuses by government
and their golden parachutes by contract. Not one person has gone to jail for this
mess and they're still inventing derivitives.
This has to be collusion or market forces would increase rates.
<< <i>They're stil loaning money at 5% and paying only .5%
This has to be collusion or market forces would increase rates. >>
Other market forces are still not strong enough to overcome $200/$900 TRILLION in interest rate swaps. In fact, IR derivatives may be the largest market force. If not collusion then certainly a decade's worth of greased palms from the FED chiefs and Treasury Secretaries to Congress and the FASB.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, FWIW: My take on all the issues of today is the old axiom: "Look out for number 1" is to blame. We who pursue our own financial security over everyone else's are really to blame...we expect our elected politicians to be noble and work "for the people" but are shocked when we find them cutting deals that allow them to "look out for number 1." We rage at the people (or groups of people) who negotiate a better deal than we can...we criminalize those who abuse the system (a.k.a. the Bell City Council)...we fantasize about that lucrative sports contract for ourselves or our children (heck, I've caught myself looking forward to what my son or daughter could provide for my retirement!!) without consideration of the millions of fans who must foot that bill...
I could go on and on...simple fact is we all desire to do the best we can (or like Captain Jack: Take all you can, and give nothing back!), but we seldom consider the impact of what our negotiations have on others. It would truly be an amazing world if we all tried to make sure WE all had enough. I'm not talking about a communist manifesto or some Utopian fantasy...I'm saying we should be concerned about our fellow man-here, and in other countries. After all, how many of us care about the poverty level we help support by purchasing goods at Walmart?
The antidote to "Look out for Number 1" or plain ol' greed is simple: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's been 2,000 years since He said that, and we still don't get it... >>
Greed has been institutionalized in the last several years. It's perfectly acceptable
now to destroy thousands of lives and good companies even if there's only a little
profit in it. It's OK to destroy products and customer confidence if you can make a
few pennies in the short term. It's OK to lie and sell worthless financial products
which ruin towns and entire countries if you can afford another vacation home. Rat-
her than putting these people in jail they are assured their bonuses by government
and their golden parachutes by contract. Not one person has gone to jail for this
mess and they're still inventing derivitives. >>
Good post, cladking. I wholeheartedly agree.
<< <i>
<< <i> Its true....a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch I suppose. >>
Youre right. I agree there is some corruption and back scratching going on in unions, but its a very small percentage compared to its members, and it is usually higher in the food chain than the worker bees.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
now to destroy thousands of lives and good companies even if there's only a little
profit in it. It's OK to destroy products and customer confidence if you can make a
few pennies in the short term. It's OK to lie and sell worthless financial products
which ruin towns and entire countries if you can afford another vacation home. Rat-
her than putting these people in jail they are assured their bonuses by government
and their golden parachutes by contract. Not one person has gone to jail for this
mess and they're still inventing derivitives.
There are no disencentives to stop this institutionalized greed. No one has gone to jail because there would be a lot of politicians going to jail as well. None of this would be possible without government and Fed cooperation. Not even the rating agencies which committed obvious fraud and who made the sale of these mortagage securities possilbe, have been convicted. What's wrong here. This is worse than if the mafia were running our government.
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Its true....a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch I suppose. >>
Youre right. I agree there is some corruption and back scratching going on in unions, but its a very small percentage compared to its members, and it is usually higher in the food chain than the worker bees. >>
Rank and file union workers are manipulated by the leaders. Fear mongering and the knowledge that every dollar collected from dues increased is more money in their pockets. Not unlike middle class taxes. I know someone in the education sector; they joined the union only to protect themself from litigious parents and arbitrary administrative practices.
Right to work laws should be legislated and enforced in every state. Otherwise you just have an organized protection racket maintained by intimidation.
<< <i>Nothing. It's like the claims they will reduce spending here. Not going to happen. It will continue . >>
As long as the American people remain in their media-induced, brain-washed slumber, I must sadly agree with you.
Ever since the powers-behind-the-throne realized that they could convince the American people that an actor playing the role of President was acceptable, they have steadily pulled out all the stops.
...and as for rising prices...for the most part, it is not that the commodities are actually worth more... it is a case of the bargaining chips (read fiat currencies) being worth less.
IMHO, unfortunately, Homeland Security was formed for a reason... and it had little to nothing to do with fear of attack from the outside... it has everything to do with being a precautionary move... to provide crowd control in the event of social unrest in this country. (no, I do not own nor wear any tinfoil hats... I just have a pragmatic view of history and the basic nature of humans).
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm a parole officer in Illinois. My pension is 50% after 20 years and I pay a significant share of my pay into that. Military gets 50% after 20 years are they the next witch hunt? My brother in law works for Commonwealth Edison. I don't know exactly what his pension plan is but I would trade with him without even knowing. >>
Be careful! Alot of the posters in this thread would like to go on believing that all government employees have some kind of milk and honey retirement deal. Ignorance and misinformation fuels their hatred for us. They read about the former (insert title here) who retired at a $159,000 pension and then landed another government job making $180,000/ year. What they dont understand.....and are unwilling to accept....is that for every 1 well connected "gamer" of the system, there are thousands of us regular folk who will get a simple pension based on years of service and final base pay. Its true....a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch I suppose. >>
For arguements sake, why should you-and im not specific about you-- get any pension at all? You make a very strong hourly wage, so why cant you fund your own retirement like all the other "regular folks"? Instead, these public union people spend all they make living beyond their means knowing full well that the rest of us "regular folks" will pay for them to live in retirement for 25-30 years or more. Why should I pay for you? Are you paying for me?
This can be expanded to private unions as well as they have pushed up the costs of manufacturing which has led to the loss of domestic jobs and inflation for everyone. .
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i> Why should I pay for you? Are you paying for me?
This can be expanded to private unions as well as they have pushed up the costs of manufacturing which has led to the loss of domestic jobs and inflation for everyone. . >>
Why should I pay for state-funded teachers salaries through taxes? Are they paying for me? Perhaps, directly, no, but they are doing an important job benefitting the whole. They are in theory, creating an educated and well informed public that's important for a strong democracy.
Yuuuuup...big push for hiring TS A agents (they don't just have to be in airports rubbing people's crotches), legions of H SA agents hired, noted the web page advertisements for fb i agents (anybody, please), huge increase in fed security hiring. Maybe they know something we don't? Last years ammo shortage was credited to fed contracts sucking up all the mfgr. capacity when the only thing available to the public was .223, .45, and 9mm and there wasn't much of that either. It does look like we're gearing up for something.
Shareholders bottom line = greedy CEO's!
Cheap shots at unions that fought for fair compensation for the working man really PMO!
If it were not for unions there would be NO middle class or workman's rights/EOE!
I personally have NEVER been a union member but I remember why they started and the good they have done.
This junk of Corporations doing buy outs of each other to do away with former employees retirement benefits is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!...
What comes around goes around.
On another note, why are we sitting on our military butts not helping the Arab world promote democracy?
<< <i>Cheap slave labor in 3rd world country's took our jobs while gov't turned a blind eye and tax incentives to big corporations.
Shareholders bottom line = greedy CEO's!
Cheap shots at unions that fought for fair compensation for the working man really PMO!
If it were not for unions there would be NO middle class or workman's rights/EOE!
I personally have NEVER been a union member but I remember why they started and the good they have done.
This junk of Corporations doing buy outs of each other to do away with former employees retirement benefits is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!...
What comes around goes around.
On another note, why are we sitting on our military butts not helping the Arab world promote democracy? >>
I'm with you there.
IMO, the US Gov. is trying to tread a fine line. It wants to sound like it's for democracy in the Middle East, but a destabilized Middle East spells trouble for oil reserves--namely the Saudi reserves. There are some other things in play, but that's a big one.
<< <i>
Cheap shots at unions that fought for fair compensation for the working man really PMO!
If it were not for unions there would be NO middle class or workman's rights/EOE!
I personally have NEVER been a union member but I remember why they started and the good they have done.
? >>
preface: I was a dues paying member of 2 unions. And I've worked for the government. And my wife is a teacher. All kinds of play in this mix.
Unions serve no purpose now other than collective bargaining. Back in the day, in unsafe working conditions in factories/plants/sites/etc unions were a positive. Now all they do is fight for madated raises, increased benefits, contract deals, etc etc etc.
Unions are one of the reasons why healthcare is ridiculous. Why do I have to have hair or sex transplants or boob jobs covered in my policy and pay the premium for them - union deals for mandated inclusion of benefits. Why can't we state shop plans - union deals leading federal regulation. etc etc
Unions are one of the big reasons why a new American car generally now costs more than a Honda (et all).
I'm all for safety on the job, fair pay for fair work, and anti child labor here in the USA and will give credit to that where it's due for the unions. But those issues are long settled and don't put J6P on the hook for pension fund mismanagement by what are really only shady lobbyist and glorified entitlement support groups.