What about all the unisured, or free health care recipients sitting in the ER right now because of a headache or a belly ache? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that atleast half of them went by ambulance too.
Atleast union workers are paying a percentage and co-pays.
<< <i>Yeah....its unions that did this to healthcare.
What about all the unisured, or free health care recipients sitting in the ER right now because of a headache or a belly ache? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that atleast half of them went by ambulance too.
Atleast union workers are paying a percentage and co-pays. >>
Sorry, meant unions are 1 of the reasons. Edited.
And I totally agree on the ER issue. Grady in Atlanta is a prime example of this.
<< <i> Why should I pay for you? Are you paying for me?
This can be expanded to private unions as well as they have pushed up the costs of manufacturing which has led to the loss of domestic jobs and inflation for everyone. . >>
Why should I pay for state-funded teachers salaries through taxes? Are they paying for me? Perhaps, directly, no, but they are doing an important job benefitting the whole. They are in theory, creating an educated and well informed public that's important for a strong democracy. >>
Ya know...Im a union employee. They have been coming after our health insurance since 2005, and they are going to keep coming after it, hard. There just isnt any negotiating this anymore. No union will stop it. Just for the record....I had better health insurance when I worked in the private sector. And my pension... Lets just say you better have a 401k or a 457B of your own.
Current social unrest is due to needed ending of social programs. Political promises to organized labor and public employee unions cannot continue to be met without taking more from Peter to give more to Paul. I have no problem with bargaining in the private sector. Too much greed will remove a competitor from the marketplace. I do have a problem with public sector unions since there is no competition to put reasonable limits on their greed that is funded by taxpayers. A prime example is teachers who are currently threatening to not do their jobs if they don't get what they want. Public servants have become taxpayer nightmares.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Is everyone enjoying the delicious irony that some of the most outspoken critics on this forum of "the bankrupt US system" are pension-having union members?
<< <i> Why should I pay for you? Are you paying for me?
This can be expanded to private unions as well as they have pushed up the costs of manufacturing which has led to the loss of domestic jobs and inflation for everyone. . >>
Why should I pay for state-funded teachers salaries through taxes? Are they paying for me? Perhaps, directly, no, but they are doing an important job benefitting the whole. They are in theory, creating an educated and well informed public that's important for a strong democracy. >>
I guess you misinterpretted my post so I will rephrase----Why should I pay for your retirement above and beyond the handsome salary you are already receiving? I dont have a problem with paying for teachers. I do have a problem with them retiring at age 50 and me still paying them 80% of their salary for the next 30 years.
You wanna see what public employees make in your state...click here. Page down to the heading "state public employees salaries" and be prepared to get blown away. These figures, I believe, do not include benefits which are easily $15-20,000 above and beyond those listed salaries.
gsa1fan, unions had their place in time and were very beneficial to the strength of the working class. They have since evolved into monsters that have destroyed millions of jobs and increased the costs of living for everyone.
<< <i>Is everyone enjoying the delicious irony that some of the most outspoken critics on this forum of "the bankrupt US system" are pension-having union members? >>
Not really. What are the odds? Pretty good I'd say. There are alot of members here as a whole. Chances are, you will have union workers posting here too. Its no more ironic than the forum members that are telling people to empty your bank accounts and invest it all in gold and silver, are the ones that have already done so.
Looks like 2012 can't come around fast enough. I wonder how much we'll spend on the next election cycle. Politics is getting bigger than the three major sports.
Look...I'm not going to defend all of the union based jobs in America. I agree there is corruption. I also can agree that people are fed up with it too. I can only defend my stance on it. I took my job because I loved the work. I love my job. I didnt take it because of the benefits. I didnt even know much about them until I was hired. I wasnt out to gouge the tax payers. As at matter of fact, I have never gone on a call where the people complained about me being paid by thier tax dollars. They even thank me for doing my job once Im done. Personally...I feel blessed to be working in this economy. Keep your raises, go ahead and raise my insurance costs. I'll still do my job, and I'll still love it. Sorry if I was a smart a$$ on some of my posts, its just that I take pride in my job, and I took the position that some were trashing my work ethic by being in a union. I'm well aware of where my paycheck comes from, and I have never taken it for granted or abused it. Have a goodnight everyone!
<< <i>We are losing some continuity when Pink goes comfortably numb. >>
If you get a chance, catch the David Gillmore concert on HDNet. Sunday night is concert night there.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I've worked in an unionized company (not as a union member, but salaried mgmg) with a division in a small town with only 3 main industry employers. I watched as the union almost caused that plant to close and the design to shift to Spain and manufacturing to Mexico. Finally, the union backed down and took some benefit cuts. The lowest paid person in that plant was a janitor making over $50k a year at that time...in a small town...with a low cost of living. The cuts were not drastic, but it was a cut back to a few years ago pay level and freeze on cost of living increases for a number of years. I sat in disbelief at the time, however, giving the generous pay for the area that they almost caused a plant to be shut down over that matter and go without jobs entirely.
I've also seen the way corporations can treat a workforce that isn't unionized all while appeasing their shareholders for every penny they can wring with employees powerless to do anything about it, and that isn't right either. Before you say, they can just get a job elsewhere, well, no not everyone can do it that easy. What's missing anymore is loyalty, both employees to the employer and vice versa.
I've also grown up as a son of parents in the education system. I've seen bad teachers, and I've seen good teachers, and I can tell you one thing...testing of the students to measure the efficiency of the teacher sounds like a good idea, but in practice it fails. For one, I can think of any number of students who cared less about school, as did their parents. As the Republicans love to rail against the "elite, intelligents" they think make up the Democrates (btw, I am registered Republican), I see it as a lot of the pervasive you didn't want to do too good in school mentality. The MAJORITY of students felt that way in high school, because you didn't want to be a nerd by being too smart. Tying teacher pay to some arbitrary test that's impacted by the willingness of a student to learn at least as much, if not more than, their ability to teach is frankly unfair to teachers. Teaching to the test is a lot like any other cramming for a test...you learn the trick, etc., then forget it. Nothing is accomplished...except maybe you got that score you wanted. There needs to be a better way.
Don't think I'm all about defending teachers too, however. I can think of SEVERAL (without straining the brain matter) who watched videos (Simpsons) etc, in their classroom rather than conduct teaching about once a week, turned the whole semester of teaching home economics into "plan a wedding" since it's fun, etc. Generally, principals are the worst part of this problem. They turn a blind eye to the shenanigans played by those that have cause to be fired, and yet jump at the slightest complaint by a parent at a teacher that's doing it right because he's "too hard" on their kid. Typically, school principals change districts frequently, always moving, never facing consequences for their policies, to chase a higher paycheck each move. School boards also show this same no backbone approach to parents and teachers.
And for those that think teachers have it easy, or think they work fewer hours, you're frankly out of touch with reality. I've known plenty of teachers whom have to dip into their own pockets for supplies for their classes at school thanks to their funding, that get increasingly larger class sizes that guarantee less and less time to help those that need it and a more and more difficult job just trying to police the classroom. Sure, teachers have weekends off....and holidays, and even a large part of the summer. (Usually about 2-4 weeks shorter than you think though...they don't finish or start when the kids do you know). I don't think that compensates for all the time grading papers, working on the now required mandated reports that have to be filed to track kids progress by both the federal and state branches, etc. You think a "planning period" during the day lets a teacher get done what they need to??? Are you kidding me??? It's late nights, almost every night, grading papers, and it starts up again the next night. Think about it...6 hours of classes for the day, 25 (at least) students per class, all with a paper or homework due means they have to check / read 150 papers a night, mark them, record the grades, etc. When you factor in their pay for their hours, very few would trade places with a teacher. On top of that, it tends to be more thankless than you think, as you see with recent events.
The other side of the coin, of course, is that certain loopholes DO need to be closed. The fact that for instance a teacher can put in 30 years and retire in one district, move to another town / school district even in the same state, take the equivalent teaching job there and pull down their salary PLUS full retirement till their "second" retirement is just wrong.
This has been an interesting read... It's alway's nice to take a Floyd break every now & then.
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon And if there is no room upon the hill And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.
I don't have a union-paid or a company-paid pension. The last time I had a company-paid healthcare policy was in 1982. I paid for my own surgery 4 years ago and nobody was bargaining collectively on my behalf.
What about those of us who work in private industry. Where are the collective protections, and who should we be protected from? I have thoughts about that.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I have no contract with my employer. Employment at will. The majority of private industry is set up this way. Time for the public sector to be aligned with the private sector(or the private sector to be aligned with the public sector which will never happen)
<< <i>I don't have a union-paid or a company-paid pension. The last time I had a company-paid healthcare policy was in 1982. I paid for my own surgery 4 years ago and nobody was bargaining collectively on my behalf.
. >>
I have a union health care plan, and it's been a total waste of money the past twenty four years. I would have never had health insurance if I had the option. But I never had the option.
Ohio wants teachers to perhaps give 10-20% towards their health coverage. That could be anywhere from 5,000-16,000 dollars per year. They better give teachers the option to not receive health insurance for themselves, or that will be a big blow to many of them.
Last year the top TEN public sector retires in SAN DIEGO county will cost the county over SIXTY MILLION DOLLARS if those ten former employees live an average life expectancy.
The librarian is getting $220,000+ a year retirement.
The PUBLIC SECTOR costs at least TWICE what they are worth. 25 years ago my brother in law was made to bid for his job at IBM San Jose. That's how it's done in the private sector.
There are at least 100 applicants for every firemans job in CAL. In Orange County ---Firemans compensation ...on average..is over $170,000/yr. ...You'd think that they'd work for a few cents less and still be happy. Awhile back, I think it was in 1999, public sector employees were allowed to lump in their comp time and sick days in their last year before retirement to boost the last years compensation and boost their retirement.
It's time the public sector come to grips with the economy. They need a good shaking by the lapels. Most of them have ZERO marketable skills. No one is representing the private sector in the negotiation with the public sector compensation plans. That changes or SHTF. Big time SHTF.
A librarian does not get 220,000 a year unless he/she is committing fraud. It is impossible, and anyone who believes it is gullable. That is unless California is that wacky.
<< <i>The world is coming to and end!!! Burrp! .... pass me another beer..... >>
Nah , i don't think it's an end to the world , my daft girlfriend reckons this is groundlaying for the often mentioned and ridiculed New World Order , i'm beginning to think she might be right.
streeter, I think your numbers may be off a bit. $220,000 for a librarian? $170,000 a year including benefits for a firefighter? I think there would be more than 100 applicants waiting for that job. I must have a weak union because I dont have any of these beneifts that have been talked about...free pension?....free or little health care costs?....COLAs? Im not seeing any of that.
"Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away. Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air."
Who have thought that words Roger Waters wrote almost 40 years ago would ring true today. I think any song on the "Animals" album would fit perfectly in this thread. (Unions being the Pigs of course.)
I'm going to go get the facts and post the exact numbers with links. Then you can doubt me or not.
Don't underestimate the fact that absolute power corrupts absolutely. We have absolute ONE PARTY Majority rule in CALIF. and THEY have managed to be so corrupt that it seems to me that it might help bring down the nation unless it is stopped. We have ...by conservative estimates.....half a trillion $$ unfunded public sector pensions through just ONE ADMINISTRATOR. CALPERS. I think it could approach a TRILLION-----comparable with What we owe CHINA....and that's just ONE PUBLIC SECTOR ADMINISTRATOR.
Look at the CITY OF BELL and VERNON and MAYWOOD if you want a laugh. Google VERNON RESIDENTS and THEN google VERNON CITY MANAGER SALARY if you have a minute of time. GOOGLE CITY OF BELL SALARIES.....--do the math yourself and figure out why a city manager gets that kind of salary. NOW...he is entitled to benefits...and he did it legally...and we have a law that says you can't take away benefits once they start.
I could find you HUNDREDS of cases of anecdotal evidence----but that would give the hardest working fireman fuel to cast doubt---...give me a few minutes to have you either believe the story and ---your choice, laugh or cry. ---
This came from a lower class citizen in the Arab world after the Saudi king handed out 37 billion to his people.............
"People don't revolt because they are hungry. People revolt because they want their dignity, because they want to govern themselves. Money won't solve our issues. We need true political and social reform. We need freedom, justice and dignity."
Not getting political, but too bad this didn't happen in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world ten years ago. The way women get treated over there is just crazy.
I do remember "da Arnold" report how the California legislature doesn't do any work. They just sit around and collect a paycheck for doing nothing. I know things are real bad out there, but 220,000 for a librarian just seems so strange to the rest of us people. But then again, California is different, as in real different.
Councilman Totals San Diego Top 10 PensionsOct 6, 2010 ... PublicCEO.com provides relevant information and timely news about California's local governments to City Managers, County Administrators, ... publicceo.com/.../2137-councilman-totals-san-diego-top-10-pensions - Cached
San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell" - San Diego 6Oct 5, 2010 ... The top 10 city pensioners will get nearly $62 million. ... the top 10 pension recipients in the city of San Diego will split $61.5 million ... www.sandiego6.com/.../San-Diego-Pension.../iVFlhMOZWECMOs8JWq0u_ g.cspx - Cached
San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell" - San Diego 6San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell". The top 10 city ... www.sandiego6.com/.../San-Diego-Pension.../iVFlhMOZWECMOs8JWq0u_ g.cspx?... - Cached
SAN DIEGO - A report released Monday documents large retirement payouts for former city of San Diego employees, which a pension reform advocate said amounts to a bigger scandal than in the city of Bell, where eight officials now face corruption charges for excessive salaries and perks.
According to the report, which was prepared by Marcia Fritz, the president of the California Foundation for Pension Reform, the top 10 pension recipients in the city of San Diego will split $61.5 million over the next 25 years.
"These workers, these retirees, are drawing from four different retirement allowances at the same time," Fritz said.
"They are making more in retirement than the current salary of the city workers that are replacing them," she said. "We are making millionaires out of these workers."
Fritz and Councilman Carl DeMaio compared the city's pension payments to the city of Bell, where it was recently revealed that some executive-level and elected city officials had exorbitant salaries and benefits. As a result, the mayor, several City Council members, the city manager and other officials in that Los Angeles County city are now facing corruption charges.
"This is actually worse than Bell, believe it or not," Fritz said.
The report highlights a former San Diego city librarian who is eligible to collect a $227,249 pension annually, with an estimated payout over 25 years of more than $6 million.
"That's a lot of books," Fritz said.
The top pension recipient is a former assistant city attorney, who is eligible to collect a $299,103 pension annually, with a total estimated payout over 25 years of more than $8 million, according to the report.
DeMaio -- who has long advocated for greater pension reform and is a vocal opponent of a proposed half-cent sales tax increase on the November ballot -- called the retirement payments "outrageous."
"Taxpayers should be outraged by the data that is being released today," he said. "These pension payments are not only unaffordable, they are indefensible."
DeMaio also criticized the pension system for San Diego's elected officials, which has granted benefits to those as young as 35 and heavily subsidizes those retirements.
The City Council tomorrow is scheduled to consider increasing the amount San Diego's elected officials must pay into their pensions. That is one of the 10 fiscal and pension changes required before a half-cent sales tax under Proposition D, if approved by voters on Nov. 2, can take effect.
The fact that some former San Diego city officials are receiving large pension payments has been known for some time.
The San Diego City Employees' Retirement System currently faces a funding shortfall of about $2 billion.
EDIT TO PUT THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE: San Diego's '''ahem''' shortfal is TWO BILLION. That's from a city of just one million. CAL has about 37 million.....so it's less than 3% of our population and San Diego is a very conservative city ----as cities go...in this state. NOW, compare this total to the entire state of Wisconsin......where all the fuss is....
The city of San DIEGO does not include county of San Diego employees or state employees in the county or federal employees in the county----and there are PLENTY of them.
CALPERS (California Pension Plan) - Too Big to Fail, and Acting ...Oct 23, 2009 ... [Apr 5, 2009: AP: $1 Trillion Hit to Pension Funds Could cost Taxpayers .... called the highest risk, highest reward bet -- to 14 percent of overall .... to property at price much lower than what they sold it to Calpers? ... www.benzinga.com/.../calpers-california-pension-plan-too-big-to-fail-and- acting-like-it -
All government workers should do it out of the goodness of their hearts and work for $1/ year salaries with no benefits. I dont know a single government employee who has a family or any financial obligations. Damn greedy firemen, teachers and cops!!!
There is NO WAY a Chicago firefighter or cop should be making $43,000/ year to start. They have no real skill sets, and are basically useless to you....until you actually need them that is. Why are we paying these people $43,000 a year when all they do is get shot at, spit on, deal with scum of the earth, go into dangerous buildings on fire, and perform life saving medical treatment on people? We really need to bring their pay back in line with the private sector....I propose something along the lines of what a Burger King manager makes. They are FAR more skilled than any firefighter or cop I ever met!
<< <i>All government workers should do it out of the goodness of their hearts and work for $1/ year salaries with no benefits. I dont know a single government employee who has a family or any financial obligations. Damn greedy firemen, teachers and cops!!!
There is NO WAY a Chicago firefighter or cop should be making $43,000/ year to start. They have no real skill sets, and are basically useless to you....until you actually need them that is. Why are we paying these people $43,000 a year when all they do is get shot at, spit on, deal with scum of the earth, go into dangerous buildings on fire, and perform life saving medical treatment on people? We really need to bring their pay back in line with the private sector....I propose something along the lines of what a Burger King manager makes. They are FAR more skilled than any firefighter or cop I ever met! >>
I'm not often in agreement with Gecko, but that hit all the right notes. To me, there's as many problems private sector (if not more so) than in the public, or are you forgetting the exploding CEO pays while cutting workers and benefits? But hey, I guess what they're trying is working....turn govt into a corporation instead all managed by the private sector for profit and see how much they can cut social services that benefit society while squeezing every cent out of the public for the benefit of the few at the top. The corporations have slowly taken over govt. through lobbying (for profit private sector prisons now anyone...didn't we just have big news of a judge getting kickbacks to send juveniles into those facilities so they could make more profit?) Remember, unless there's at least a Director in your job title, you're not entitled to make a decent living, much less ever retire.
The point is that the government workers are negotiating their own ticket with other government workers and laying the bill at my feet. Excuse me, but my price has just gone up.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
"(for profit private sector prisons now anyone...didn't we just have big news of a judge getting kickbacks to send juveniles into those facilities so they could make more profit?) "
That is a prime example of what happens when you turn a traditionally government run operation over to the private sector. All the private sector understands is money. There are no private sector CEO's motivated by "civic duty", they are all motivated by greed. Thats how capitalism works......screw the mountain, lets wash the entire thing down to get a few bucks worth of gold! When people are driven solely by monetary gain, thats when we get a society that doesnt give a chit about eachother....its all me, me me, at that point.
Are there some serious problems with our current pension obligations? You would be a stone cold fool to say no. Even I understand that much. does the blame lie with "greedy public union workers"? Only an idiot would say yes. Regardless of who is to blame.....and that its a well known FACT that states and municipalities took pension funding holidays.....we need to stop just tossing people under the bus at random here. Does a stste librarian deserve $200,000/yr? I personally dont think so, but thats something that was negotiated by YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS.....you know, the ones you voted for? Hold them accountable for their actions. Dont villify the entire union workforce based on the salary of a few workers in San Diego. The pay here in Chicago for some of the toughest public union jobs starts in the low 40's. You wanna stand on the back of a garbage truck in mid January for less?
When I took the job in 1999, my pay of $33,500 was among the lowest salary of all my buddies at the time. While they were enjoying matching 401k, Christmas bonuses, and some even got profit sharing, I was making just about the national average.......and my job has nothing to do with national averages. But I didnt complain, because unlike most private sector workers, I wasnt motivated by money. I had a much higher calling.....a desire to do a job that has a direct impact on people's lives. Being on the pipe (nozzle) at a fire and getting in quick enough to knock the 2 room fire before it became a 3,4, or 5 room fire was my reward....and much more enjoyable than any "bonus check" I could have been earning in the private sector. And ya know what Streeter? There wasnt a single person back then that ever even IMPLIED that I was overcompensated......never once. Admit it, 12 years ago, nobody talked about overpaid cops and firemen. Thats because during GOOD times, when you can get that IT job making $50,000 with no problem, you dont care that your fireman neighbor is risking his life for $33,500.....as long as you are doing BETTER than him. Now things have changed a bit.....and it turns out that my job is a bit more secure than yours was. But how can that possibly be? I have no real skills, right? In the end, this is simply a case of sour grapes. If it was actually a REAL issue, there would have been much more talk about it during the boom times of 1999-2006. But now, all the sudden, its a big problem? No, it became a big problem when the value of your home lost 25% and your IT job went away. Now IM the greedy, evil, public union worker huh?
Phil, just curious. Are you a first-generation fireman, or a multi-generation family? TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The Illinois state budget is in deep trouble, correct? It sure didn't get that way by keeping pensions and welfare under control, did it?
Why aren't other states in worse shape than Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and New York? It couldn't possibly be the public workers' unions, and handing out freebies to people who drop by for a government handout on demand, could it?
If that is completely wrong, please explain the differences. Are all those "other" states just stingy with their money, or does reality actually take root when people aren't ramroded by the corrupt politicians and their union supporters?
I helped found an Ironworkers Local once upon a time, and in so doing I'm not sure that it might have helped to kill those production jobs later on. It was long before I understood what it takes to keep a company viable.
There is a two-edged blade when you start talking about union benefits and jobs. It does cut both ways in the private sector.But in the public sector, who is protecting the taxpayers from the unholy alliance between the politicians and the union bosses, in places like - say, Chicago?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>The Illinois state budget is in deep trouble, correct? It sure didn't get that way by keeping pensions and welfare under control, did it?
Why aren't other states in worse shape than Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and New York? It couldn't possibly be the public workers' unions, and handing out freebies to people who drop by for a government handout on demand, could it?
If that is completely wrong, please explain the differences. Are all those "other" states just stingy with their money, or does reality actually take root when people aren't ramroded by the corrupt politicians and their union supporters?
I helped found an Ironworkers Local once upon a time, and in so doing I'm not sure that it might have helped to kill those production jobs later on. It was long before I understood what it takes to keep a company viable.
There is a two-edged blade when you start talking about union benefits and jobs. It does cut both ways in the private sector.But in the public sector, who is protecting the taxpayers from the unholy alliance between the politicians and the union bosses, in places like - say, Chicago? >>
You had better wake up and smell the coffee my friend. There are MANY states in the red, and alot of those are both "right to work" AND Republican controlled states. So please dont come here and try to tell me its the unions that are killing only certain states.
Who here as a private citizen(excluding CEOs) has the luxury of spending other people's money. Only the government at the Federal, State or Local Level has this luxury. Don't have the money, don' t want to tell your constituents you need to raise taxes-just borrow it. No problem. The problem lies in both the politicians and their constituents. the Politicians are the People's Sugar Daddies.
Gecko, you are taking personally the attack that is directed to all the Trumpka's out there that see "everything" is not enough.
I saw Chris Christie on Morning Joe today. All the compromises he suggests with the unions are met with "he// no." His following comment says it all..."no one represents the interest of the middle class taxpayer. I'm that person." Does it matter what is negotiated when there's no money left? State's can't print. State's have an end game.
Everyone may have to take some hit before this is over but the first ones should be those who caused it; the bankers, wall street, and Washington. Can we still afford tens of millions of dollars for ex-presidents especially in light of the fact none have even been attacked. Some of the bankers should be in prison instead of awarding one another huge bonuses. Why should a CEO be making piles of money to take down in his golden parachute when employees, stock holders, and pensioners are being reduced to eating cat food.
The best bet is to quit throwing money away and then worry about economizing.
<< <i> Admit it, 12 years ago, nobody talked about overpaid cops and firemen. Thats because during GOOD times, when you can get that IT job making $50,000 with no problem, you dont care that your fireman neighbor is risking his life for $33,500.....as long as you are doing BETTER than him. Now things have changed a bit.....and it turns out that my job is a bit more secure than yours was. But how can that possibly be? I have no real skills, right? In the end, this is simply a case of sour grapes. If it was actually a REAL issue, there would have been much more talk about it during the boom times of 1999-2006. But now, all the sudden, its a big problem? No, it became a big problem when the value of your home lost 25% and your IT job went away. Now IM the greedy, evil, public union worker huh? >>
Well said Phil. You summed it up perfectly. But unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears here. Ya see...some people here only want to here 2 things. 1. How to fix the economy by abolishing unions. 2. Whatever Glen Beck tells them.
Well, Phil - the data I've seen isn't as bad as the map you linked, but it's pretty bad in many states, I'll agree with that.
I would never impune the jobs that firemen, or teachers or policemen do - but since they are public employees, we taxpayers can certainly debate the salary and benefits that they should receive and their relative value compared to other jobs in both the private and public sectors.
Seniority and union work rules are bogus concepts that only serve to drive up costs and increase inefficiency in almost any workplace. When competition and performance take a back seat to seniority and union politics, then pay scales and benefits are determined more by political patronage instead of merit, and that's trouble in more ways than one. For public employees to be knocking down double what their private sector counterparts are making is a complete fraud on the taxpaying public - what, exactly is the justification for that? There isn't any.
The key issue here is truly the conflict of interest that arises when public unions feel that they can extort more money and benefits from the public till via union action, threats and intimidation. In my opinion, that is completely a breach of public duty and should be actionable by disciplinary action and/or firing. As with almost any good job, there is always someone waiting in line to take it when it vacates. If it's not that good a job, then by all means - demand more money and see what happens. However in the face of massive public deficits, for public workers to have a problem with contributing some percentage to their own pension and/or health care plan is truly unreasonable when most everyone else that works for a living has to pay for between 20% to 100% of their pension and health care.
Let's be clear about it. You may be the last fireman in your family, but there's no guarantee you'd have fared any better financially in the private sector. It's competitive and there aren't alot of jobs. I have no company-paid health care plan and no company-paid pension. However, I sure do pay taxes and I pay for everything else with after-tax money. Everything I have is from savings, and believe me that it's all on me if I screw up. If I don't show up for work, guess what? I don't get paid and my customers disappear forever. How's that for job security and benefits?
If you think that I should pay for your health care in lieu of paying for my own, I vote "no", and I think that is what the voters said last November as well. You might want to consider that there's another side to the coin that pays for your benefits.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Here's a sample of some of the public sector scams that are going on, pay particular attention to # 16...a guy who CLAIMS he is only making $400+ large a year but who was bring down $900,000 a year...for being the city manager of a town with less than 100 people. I doubt even many people around knew about this slickster. 10 of the 20 are right here in our own paradise.
Comments
What about all the unisured, or free health care recipients sitting in the ER right now because of a headache or a belly ache? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that atleast half of them went by ambulance too.
Atleast union workers are paying a percentage and co-pays.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
ungar on unions
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>Yeah....its unions that did this to healthcare.
What about all the unisured, or free health care recipients sitting in the ER right now because of a headache or a belly ache? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that atleast half of them went by ambulance too.
Atleast union workers are paying a percentage and co-pays. >>
Sorry, meant unions are 1 of the reasons. Edited.
And I totally agree on the ER issue. Grady in Atlanta is a prime example of this.
<< <i>
<< <i> Why should I pay for you? Are you paying for me?
This can be expanded to private unions as well as they have pushed up the costs of manufacturing which has led to the loss of domestic jobs and inflation for everyone. . >>
Why should I pay for state-funded teachers salaries through taxes? Are they paying for me? Perhaps, directly, no, but they are doing an important job benefitting the whole. They are in theory, creating an educated and well informed public that's important for a strong democracy. >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i> Why should I pay for you? Are you paying for me?
This can be expanded to private unions as well as they have pushed up the costs of manufacturing which has led to the loss of domestic jobs and inflation for everyone. . >>
Why should I pay for state-funded teachers salaries through taxes? Are they paying for me? Perhaps, directly, no, but they are doing an important job benefitting the whole. They are in theory, creating an educated and well informed public that's important for a strong democracy. >>
I guess you misinterpretted my post so I will rephrase----Why should I pay for your retirement above and beyond the handsome salary you are already receiving? I dont have a problem with paying for teachers. I do have a problem with them retiring at age 50 and me still paying them 80% of their salary for the next 30 years.
You wanna see what public employees make in your state...click here. Page down to the heading "state public employees salaries" and be prepared to get blown away. These figures, I believe, do not include benefits which are easily $15-20,000 above and beyond those listed salaries.
gsa1fan, unions had their place in time and were very beneficial to the strength of the working class. They have since evolved into monsters that have destroyed millions of jobs and increased the costs of living for everyone.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Is everyone enjoying the delicious irony that some of the most outspoken critics on this forum of "the bankrupt US system" are pension-having union members? >>
Not really. What are the odds? Pretty good I'd say. There are alot of members here as a whole. Chances are, you will have union workers posting here too.
Its no more ironic than the forum members that are telling people to empty your bank accounts and invest it all in gold and silver, are the ones that have already done so.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
Looks like 2012 can't come around fast enough. I wonder how much we'll spend on the next election cycle. Politics is getting bigger than the three major sports.
I took my job because I loved the work. I love my job. I didnt take it because of the benefits. I didnt even know much about them until I was hired. I wasnt out to gouge the tax payers. As at matter of fact, I have never gone on a call where the people complained about me being paid by thier tax dollars. They even thank me for doing my job once Im done.
Personally...I feel blessed to be working in this economy. Keep your raises, go ahead and raise my insurance costs. I'll still do my job, and I'll still love it.
Sorry if I was a smart a$$ on some of my posts, its just that I take pride in my job, and I took the position that some were trashing my work ethic by being in a union. I'm well aware of where my paycheck comes from, and I have never taken it for granted or abused it.
Have a goodnight everyone!
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>We are losing some continuity when Pink goes comfortably numb. >>
If you get a chance, catch the David Gillmore concert on HDNet. Sunday night is concert night there.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>We are losing some continuity when Pink goes comfortably numb. >>
Oh yeah, sorry about that. I was too busy trying to tell a green field from a cold steel rail. A smile from a veil, and so on.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
I've worked in an unionized company (not as a union member, but salaried mgmg) with a division in a small town with only 3 main industry employers. I watched as the union almost caused that plant to close and the design to shift to Spain and manufacturing to Mexico. Finally, the union backed down and took some benefit cuts. The lowest paid person in that plant was a janitor making over $50k a year at that time...in a small town...with a low cost of living. The cuts were not drastic, but it was a cut back to a few years ago pay level and freeze on cost of living increases for a number of years. I sat in disbelief at the time, however, giving the generous pay for the area that they almost caused a plant to be shut down over that matter and go without jobs entirely.
I've also seen the way corporations can treat a workforce that isn't unionized all while appeasing their shareholders for every penny they can wring with employees powerless to do anything about it, and that isn't right either. Before you say, they can just get a job elsewhere, well, no not everyone can do it that easy. What's missing anymore is loyalty, both employees to the employer and vice versa.
I've also grown up as a son of parents in the education system. I've seen bad teachers, and I've seen good teachers, and I can tell you one thing...testing of the students to measure the efficiency of the teacher sounds like a good idea, but in practice it fails. For one, I can think of any number of students who cared less about school, as did their parents. As the Republicans love to rail against the "elite, intelligents" they think make up the Democrates (btw, I am registered Republican), I see it as a lot of the pervasive you didn't want to do too good in school mentality. The MAJORITY of students felt that way in high school, because you didn't want to be a nerd by being too smart. Tying teacher pay to some arbitrary test that's impacted by the willingness of a student to learn at least as much, if not more than, their ability to teach is frankly unfair to teachers. Teaching to the test is a lot like any other cramming for a test...you learn the trick, etc., then forget it. Nothing is accomplished...except maybe you got that score you wanted. There needs to be a better way.
Don't think I'm all about defending teachers too, however. I can think of SEVERAL (without straining the brain matter) who watched videos (Simpsons) etc, in their classroom rather than conduct teaching about once a week, turned the whole semester of teaching home economics into "plan a wedding" since it's fun, etc. Generally, principals are the worst part of this problem. They turn a blind eye to the shenanigans played by those that have cause to be fired, and yet jump at the slightest complaint by a parent at a teacher that's doing it right because he's "too hard" on their kid. Typically, school principals change districts frequently, always moving, never facing consequences for their policies, to chase a higher paycheck each move. School boards also show this same no backbone approach to parents and teachers.
And for those that think teachers have it easy, or think they work fewer hours, you're frankly out of touch with reality. I've known plenty of teachers whom have to dip into their own pockets for supplies for their classes at school thanks to their funding, that get increasingly larger class sizes that guarantee less and less time to help those that need it and a more and more difficult job just trying to police the classroom. Sure, teachers have weekends off....and holidays, and even a large part of the summer. (Usually about 2-4 weeks shorter than you think though...they don't finish or start when the kids do you know). I don't think that compensates for all the time grading papers, working on the now required mandated reports that have to be filed to track kids progress by both the federal and state branches, etc. You think a "planning period" during the day lets a teacher get done what they need to??? Are you kidding me??? It's late nights, almost every night, grading papers, and it starts up again the next night. Think about it...6 hours of classes for the day, 25 (at least) students per class, all with a paper or homework due means they have to check / read 150 papers a night, mark them, record the grades, etc. When you factor in their pay for their hours, very few would trade places with a teacher. On top of that, it tends to be more thankless than you think, as you see with recent events.
The other side of the coin, of course, is that certain loopholes DO need to be closed. The fact that for instance a teacher can put in 30 years and retire in one district, move to another town / school district even in the same state, take the equivalent teaching job there and pull down their salary PLUS full retirement till their "second" retirement is just wrong.
<< <i>
<< <i>We are losing some continuity when Pink goes comfortably numb. >>
Oh yeah, sorry about that. I was too busy trying to tell a green field from a cold steel rail. A smile from a veil, and so on.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming. >>
Wish I was there...
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mariner67, and Mikes coins
You are only coming through in waves, your lips move but i can't hear what you're saying.
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
What about those of us who work in private industry. Where are the collective protections, and who should we be protected from? I have thoughts about that.
I knew it would happen.
Box of 20
<< <i>I don't have a union-paid or a company-paid pension. The last time I had a company-paid healthcare policy was in 1982. I paid for my own surgery 4 years ago and nobody was bargaining collectively on my behalf.
. >>
I have a union health care plan, and it's been a total waste of money the past twenty four years. I would have never had health insurance if I had the option. But I never had the option.
Ohio wants teachers to perhaps give 10-20% towards their health coverage. That could be anywhere from 5,000-16,000 dollars per year.
They better give teachers the option to not receive health insurance for themselves, or that will be a big blow to many of them.
The librarian is getting $220,000+ a year retirement.
The PUBLIC SECTOR costs at least TWICE what they are worth. 25 years ago my brother in law was made to bid for his job at IBM San Jose. That's how it's done in the private sector.
There are at least 100 applicants for every firemans job in CAL. In Orange County ---Firemans compensation ...on average..is over $170,000/yr. ...You'd think that they'd work for a few cents less and still be happy. Awhile back, I think it was in 1999, public sector employees were allowed to lump in their comp time and sick days in their last year before retirement to boost the last years compensation and boost their retirement.
It's time the public sector come to grips with the economy. They need a good shaking by the lapels. Most of them have ZERO marketable skills.
No one is representing the private sector in the negotiation with the public sector compensation plans. That changes or SHTF. Big time SHTF.
That is unless California is that wacky.
<< <i>The world is coming to and end!!! Burrp! .... pass me another beer..... >>
Nah , i don't think it's an end to the world , my daft girlfriend reckons this is groundlaying for the often mentioned and ridiculed New World Order , i'm beginning to think she might be right.
I must have a weak union because I dont have any of these beneifts that have been talked about...free pension?....free or little health care costs?....COLAs? Im not seeing any of that.
"Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away.
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air."
Who have thought that words Roger Waters wrote almost 40 years ago would ring true today. I think any song on the "Animals" album would fit perfectly in this thread. (Unions being the Pigs of course.)
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I'm going to go get the facts and post the exact numbers with links.
Then you can doubt me or not.
Don't underestimate the fact that absolute power corrupts absolutely. We have absolute ONE PARTY Majority rule in CALIF. and THEY have managed to be so corrupt that it seems to me that it might help bring down the nation unless it is stopped. We have ...by conservative estimates.....half a trillion $$ unfunded public sector pensions through just ONE ADMINISTRATOR. CALPERS. I think it could approach a TRILLION-----comparable with What we owe CHINA....and that's just ONE PUBLIC SECTOR ADMINISTRATOR.
Look at the CITY OF BELL and VERNON and MAYWOOD if you want a laugh. Google VERNON RESIDENTS and THEN google VERNON CITY MANAGER SALARY if you have a minute of time. GOOGLE CITY OF BELL SALARIES.....--do the math yourself and figure out why a city manager gets that kind of salary. NOW...he is entitled to benefits...and he did it legally...and we have a law that says you can't take away benefits once they start.
I could find you HUNDREDS of cases of anecdotal evidence----but that would give the hardest working fireman fuel to cast doubt---...give me a few minutes to have you either believe the story and ---your choice, laugh or cry. ---
"People don't revolt because they are hungry. People revolt because they want their dignity, because they want to govern themselves. Money won't solve our issues. We need true political and social reform. We need freedom, justice and dignity."
Not getting political, but too bad this didn't happen in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world ten years ago. The way women
get treated over there is just crazy.
a paycheck for doing nothing. I know things are real bad out there, but 220,000 for a librarian just seems so strange to the
rest of us people. But then again, California is different, as in real different.
Councilman Totals San Diego Top 10 PensionsOct 6, 2010 ... PublicCEO.com provides relevant information and timely news about California's local governments to City Managers, County Administrators, ...
publicceo.com/.../2137-councilman-totals-san-diego-top-10-pensions - Cached
San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell" - San Diego 6Oct 5, 2010 ... The top 10 city pensioners will get nearly $62 million. ... the top 10 pension recipients in the city of San Diego will split $61.5 million ...
www.sandiego6.com/.../San-Diego-Pension.../iVFlhMOZWECMOs8JWq0u_ g.cspx - Cached
San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell" - San Diego 6San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell". The top 10 city ...
www.sandiego6.com/.../San-Diego-Pension.../iVFlhMOZWECMOs8JWq0u_ g.cspx?... - Cached
SAN DIEGO - A report released Monday documents large retirement payouts for former city of San Diego employees, which a pension reform advocate said amounts to a bigger scandal than in the city of Bell, where eight officials now face corruption charges for excessive salaries and perks.
According to the report, which was prepared by Marcia Fritz, the president of the California Foundation for Pension Reform, the top 10 pension recipients in the city of San Diego will split $61.5 million over the next 25 years.
"These workers, these retirees, are drawing from four different retirement allowances at the same time," Fritz said.
"They are making more in retirement than the current salary of the city workers that are replacing them," she said. "We are making millionaires out of these workers."
Fritz and Councilman Carl DeMaio compared the city's pension payments to the city of Bell, where it was recently revealed that some executive-level and elected city officials had exorbitant salaries and benefits. As a result, the mayor, several City Council members, the city manager and other officials in that Los Angeles County city are now facing corruption charges.
"This is actually worse than Bell, believe it or not," Fritz said.
The report highlights a former San Diego city librarian who is eligible to collect a $227,249 pension annually, with an estimated payout over 25 years of more than $6 million.
"That's a lot of books," Fritz said.
The top pension recipient is a former assistant city attorney, who is eligible to collect a $299,103 pension annually, with a total estimated payout over 25 years of more than $8 million, according to the report.
DeMaio -- who has long advocated for greater pension reform and is a vocal opponent of a proposed half-cent sales tax increase on the November ballot -- called the retirement payments "outrageous."
"Taxpayers should be outraged by the data that is being released today," he said. "These pension payments are not only unaffordable, they are indefensible."
DeMaio also criticized the pension system for San Diego's elected officials, which has granted benefits to those as young as 35 and heavily subsidizes those retirements.
The City Council tomorrow is scheduled to consider increasing the amount San Diego's elected officials must pay into their pensions. That is one of the 10 fiscal and pension changes required before a half-cent sales tax under Proposition D, if approved by voters on Nov. 2, can take effect.
The fact that some former San Diego city officials are receiving large pension payments has been known for some time.
The San Diego City Employees' Retirement System currently faces a funding shortfall of about $2 billion.
EDIT TO PUT THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE: San Diego's '''ahem''' shortfal is TWO BILLION. That's from a city of just one million. CAL has about 37 million.....so it's less than 3% of our population and San Diego is a very conservative city ----as cities go...in this state. NOW, compare this total to the entire state of Wisconsin......where all the fuss is....
The city of San DIEGO does not include county of San Diego employees or state employees in the county or federal employees in the county----and there are PLENTY of them.
www.benzinga.com/.../calpers-california-pension-plan-too-big-to-fail-and- acting-like-it -
There is NO WAY a Chicago firefighter or cop should be making $43,000/ year to start. They have no real skill sets, and are basically useless to you....until you actually need them that is. Why are we paying these people $43,000 a year when all they do is get shot at, spit on, deal with scum of the earth, go into dangerous buildings on fire, and perform life saving medical treatment on people? We really need to bring their pay back in line with the private sector....I propose something along the lines of what a Burger King manager makes. They are FAR more skilled than any firefighter or cop I ever met!
Lad, you ought to be paid DOUBLE as you are CFD's version of K st.
Do they give you comp time for your lobbying?
<< <i>All government workers should do it out of the goodness of their hearts and work for $1/ year salaries with no benefits. I dont know a single government employee who has a family or any financial obligations. Damn greedy firemen, teachers and cops!!!
There is NO WAY a Chicago firefighter or cop should be making $43,000/ year to start. They have no real skill sets, and are basically useless to you....until you actually need them that is. Why are we paying these people $43,000 a year when all they do is get shot at, spit on, deal with scum of the earth, go into dangerous buildings on fire, and perform life saving medical treatment on people? We really need to bring their pay back in line with the private sector....I propose something along the lines of what a Burger King manager makes. They are FAR more skilled than any firefighter or cop I ever met! >>
I'm not often in agreement with Gecko, but that hit all the right notes. To me, there's as many problems private sector (if not more so) than in the public, or are you forgetting the exploding CEO pays while cutting workers and benefits? But hey, I guess what they're trying is working....turn govt into a corporation instead all managed by the private sector for profit and see how much they can cut social services that benefit society while squeezing every cent out of the public for the benefit of the few at the top. The corporations have slowly taken over govt. through lobbying (for profit private sector prisons now anyone...didn't we just have big news of a judge getting kickbacks to send juveniles into those facilities so they could make more profit?) Remember, unless there's at least a Director in your job title, you're not entitled to make a decent living, much less ever retire.
I knew it would happen.
That is a prime example of what happens when you turn a traditionally government run operation over to the private sector. All the private sector understands is money. There are no private sector CEO's motivated by "civic duty", they are all motivated by greed. Thats how capitalism works......screw the mountain, lets wash the entire thing down to get a few bucks worth of gold! When people are driven solely by monetary gain, thats when we get a society that doesnt give a chit about eachother....its all me, me me, at that point.
Are there some serious problems with our current pension obligations? You would be a stone cold fool to say no. Even I understand that much.
does the blame lie with "greedy public union workers"? Only an idiot would say yes. Regardless of who is to blame.....and that its a well known FACT that states and municipalities took pension funding holidays.....we need to stop just tossing people under the bus at random here. Does a stste librarian deserve $200,000/yr? I personally dont think so, but thats something that was negotiated by YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS.....you know, the ones you voted for? Hold them accountable for their actions. Dont villify the entire union workforce based on the salary of a few workers in San Diego. The pay here in Chicago for some of the toughest public union jobs starts in the low 40's. You wanna stand on the back of a garbage truck in mid January for less?
When I took the job in 1999, my pay of $33,500 was among the lowest salary of all my buddies at the time. While they were enjoying matching 401k, Christmas bonuses, and some even got profit sharing, I was making just about the national average.......and my job has nothing to do with national averages. But I didnt complain, because unlike most private sector workers, I wasnt motivated by money. I had a much higher calling.....a desire to do a job that has a direct impact on people's lives. Being on the pipe (nozzle) at a fire and getting in quick enough to knock the 2 room fire before it became a 3,4, or 5 room fire was my reward....and much more enjoyable than any "bonus check" I could have been earning in the private sector. And ya know what Streeter? There wasnt a single person back then that ever even IMPLIED that I was overcompensated......never once. Admit it, 12 years ago, nobody talked about overpaid cops and firemen. Thats because during GOOD times, when you can get that IT job making $50,000 with no problem, you dont care that your fireman neighbor is risking his life for $33,500.....as long as you are doing BETTER than him. Now things have changed a bit.....and it turns out that my job is a bit more secure than yours was. But how can that possibly be? I have no real skills, right? In the end, this is simply a case of sour grapes. If it was actually a REAL issue, there would have been much more talk about it during the boom times of 1999-2006. But now, all the sudden, its a big problem? No, it became a big problem when the value of your home lost 25% and your IT job went away. Now IM the greedy, evil, public union worker huh?
TD
Why aren't other states in worse shape than Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and New York? It couldn't possibly be the public workers' unions, and handing out freebies to people who drop by for a government handout on demand, could it?
If that is completely wrong, please explain the differences. Are all those "other" states just stingy with their money, or does reality actually take root when people aren't ramroded by the corrupt politicians and their union supporters?
I helped found an Ironworkers Local once upon a time, and in so doing I'm not sure that it might have helped to kill those production jobs later on. It was long before I understood what it takes to keep a company viable.
There is a two-edged blade when you start talking about union benefits and jobs. It does cut both ways in the private sector.But in the public sector, who is protecting the taxpayers from the unholy alliance between the politicians and the union bosses, in places like - say, Chicago?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Phil, just curious. Are you a first-generation fireman, or a multi-generation family?
TD >>
First ever in my family. Hopefully last as well.
<< <i>The Illinois state budget is in deep trouble, correct? It sure didn't get that way by keeping pensions and welfare under control, did it?
Why aren't other states in worse shape than Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and New York? It couldn't possibly be the public workers' unions, and handing out freebies to people who drop by for a government handout on demand, could it?
If that is completely wrong, please explain the differences. Are all those "other" states just stingy with their money, or does reality actually take root when people aren't ramroded by the corrupt politicians and their union supporters?
I helped found an Ironworkers Local once upon a time, and in so doing I'm not sure that it might have helped to kill those production jobs later on. It was long before I understood what it takes to keep a company viable.
There is a two-edged blade when you start talking about union benefits and jobs. It does cut both ways in the private sector.But in the public sector, who is protecting the taxpayers from the unholy alliance between the politicians and the union bosses, in places like - say, Chicago? >>
You had better wake up and smell the coffee my friend. There are MANY states in the red, and alot of those are both "right to work" AND Republican controlled states. So please dont come here and try to tell me its the unions that are killing only certain states.
MOST states are facing large budget defecits....not just Illinois, California, and New York
Box of 20
I saw Chris Christie on Morning Joe today. All the compromises he suggests with the unions are met with "he// no." His following comment says it all..."no one represents the interest of the middle class taxpayer. I'm that person." Does it matter what is negotiated when there's no money left? State's can't print. State's have an end game.
be those who caused it; the bankers, wall street, and Washington. Can we still afford
tens of millions of dollars for ex-presidents especially in light of the fact none have even
been attacked. Some of the bankers should be in prison instead of awarding one another
huge bonuses. Why should a CEO be making piles of money to take down in his golden
parachute when employees, stock holders, and pensioners are being reduced to eating
cat food.
The best bet is to quit throwing money away and then worry about economizing.
I heard the other day there's a hospital in Greece that has 35 gardeners on the payroll!! Benefits and everything.
If you think having 35 gardeners is too much, the real kicker is the hospital doesn't even have a garden!!
No trees, no flowers, no grass, just concrete.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i> Admit it, 12 years ago, nobody talked about overpaid cops and firemen. Thats because during GOOD times, when you can get that IT job making $50,000 with no problem, you dont care that your fireman neighbor is risking his life for $33,500.....as long as you are doing BETTER than him. Now things have changed a bit.....and it turns out that my job is a bit more secure than yours was. But how can that possibly be? I have no real skills, right? In the end, this is simply a case of sour grapes. If it was actually a REAL issue, there would have been much more talk about it during the boom times of 1999-2006. But now, all the sudden, its a big problem? No, it became a big problem when the value of your home lost 25% and your IT job went away. Now IM the greedy, evil, public union worker huh? >>
Well said Phil. You summed it up perfectly. But unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears here. Ya see...some people here only want to here 2 things.
1. How to fix the economy by abolishing unions.
2. Whatever Glen Beck tells them.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
I would never impune the jobs that firemen, or teachers or policemen do - but since they are public employees, we taxpayers can certainly debate the salary and benefits that they should receive and their relative value compared to other jobs in both the private and public sectors.
Seniority and union work rules are bogus concepts that only serve to drive up costs and increase inefficiency in almost any workplace. When competition and performance take a back seat to seniority and union politics, then pay scales and benefits are determined more by political patronage instead of merit, and that's trouble in more ways than one. For public employees to be knocking down double what their private sector counterparts are making is a complete fraud on the taxpaying public - what, exactly is the justification for that? There isn't any.
The key issue here is truly the conflict of interest that arises when public unions feel that they can extort more money and benefits from the public till via union action, threats and intimidation. In my opinion, that is completely a breach of public duty and should be actionable by disciplinary action and/or firing. As with almost any good job, there is always someone waiting in line to take it when it vacates. If it's not that good a job, then by all means - demand more money and see what happens. However in the face of massive public deficits, for public workers to have a problem with contributing some percentage to their own pension and/or health care plan is truly unreasonable when most everyone else that works for a living has to pay for between 20% to 100% of their pension and health care.
Let's be clear about it. You may be the last fireman in your family, but there's no guarantee you'd have fared any better financially in the private sector. It's competitive and there aren't alot of jobs. I have no company-paid health care plan and no company-paid pension. However, I sure do pay taxes and I pay for everything else with after-tax money. Everything I have is from savings, and believe me that it's all on me if I screw up. If I don't show up for work, guess what? I don't get paid and my customers disappear forever. How's that for job security and benefits?
If you think that I should pay for your health care in lieu of paying for my own, I vote "no", and I think that is what the voters said last November as well. You might want to consider that there's another side to the coin that pays for your benefits.
I knew it would happen.
pay particular attention to # 16...a guy who CLAIMS he is only making $400+ large a year but who was bring down $900,000 a year...for being the city manager of a town with less than 100 people. I doubt even many people around knew about this slickster.
10 of the 20 are right here in our own paradise.
need help to link please.
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2010/10/20-government-workers-with-super-sized-pay.html
Unionized public sector employees will be the final nail in the coffin for our economic mess.
edit: speeling