<< <i> ...what we need is an intelligent, effective and impassioned assault.
PCGS, NGC and CAC are, in their own very different ways, doing exactly that. And nobody can doubt that Laura is, to some extent, behind it all. >>
>>
Even the Road Less Traveled. But isn't this yesterday's news?
Perhaps her work is done, as others (per above) have all the leverage needed to work on this. All those flawed damn human beings keep messing up Utopia. For truly, gloriously, and also sadly "this is best of all possible worlds".
Of course, a world without spelll-chek would be a world none of us would deem worthy to inhabit.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>The PNG has expelled members When? And for what? Probably failure to pay dues. >>
No, I was never kicked out and I stopped paying my dues. Just thought I'd let you know.
I think they do such a good job investigating people that they don't have to kick anyone out.
By the way, I heard that no one has ever filed a complaint against a PNG dealer for selling them an AT coin. Heard otherwise? Trust me..."I can handle the truth."
And let's turn the tables around....do you know of anyone that should be kicked out of the PNG who has not been kicked out? Notice I did not say publicly identify them in this thread.
(And by the way, I know some people who are not members of the PNG and shouldn't be.)
from Morgangold.com (Steve Deeds site....found it clicking on Google Adwords diplayed in this forum)
"The Professional Numismatists Guild--PNG--had its inception in 1950 with renowned coin dealer Abe Kosoff. As the rare coin hobby and industry started to expand rapidly in the decades following World War II, Kosoff and other dealers felt that the market would benefit greatly through the activities of an organized group of dealers and other numismatic professionals. The PNG was founded in 1955 through the efforts of Kosoff and others, and it continues to serve the rare coin industry as a not-for-profit organization promoting knowledge, integrity and responsibility among its dealer members.
Membership in the PNG, while it has grown considerably since Kosoff's day, is still limited to the finest numismatic professionals in the world. In order to obtain membership in this prestigious organization, a dealer must demonstrate experience in the rare coin market, have substantial financial resources and be elected by a majority of the current membership of the guild. Once membership in the guild is bestowed, a dealer is held to the highest standards of ethics and professionalism. The PNG is governed by a set of rules and regulations to which all members are bound, which include an arbitration process for settling differences between buyers and sellers of numismatic property. In other words, if disagreements arise during numismatic transactions with a PNG dealer, the PNG will act to make sure that the matter is resolved in a professional and competent manner. The actions of each of its members reflects not only upon the entire PNG, but the numismatic industry as a whole through the global network represented by the guild's membership.
<< <i>from Morgangold.com (Steve Deeds site....found it clicking on Google Adwords diplayed in this forum)
"The Professional Numismatists Guild--PNG--had its inception in 1950 with renowned coin dealer Abe Kosoff. As the rare coin hobby and industry started to expand rapidly in the decades following World War II, Kosoff and other dealers felt that the market would benefit greatly through the activities of an organized group of dealers and other numismatic professionals. The PNG was founded in 1955 through the efforts of Kosoff and others, and it continues to serve the rare coin industry as a not-for-profit organization promoting knowledge, integrity and responsibility among its dealer members.
Membership in the PNG, while it has grown considerably since Kosoff's day, is still limited to the finest numismatic professionals in the world. In order to obtain membership in this prestigious organization, a dealer must demonstrate experience in the rare coin market, have substantial financial resources and be elected by a majority of the current membership of the guild. Once membership in the guild is bestowed, a dealer is held to the highest standards of ethics and professionalism. The PNG is governed by a set of rules and regulations to which all members are bound, which include an arbitration process for settling differences between buyers and sellers of numismatic property. In other words, if disagreements arise during numismatic transactions with a PNG dealer, the PNG will act to make sure that the matter is resolved in a professional and competent manner. The actions of each of its members reflects not only upon the entire PNG, but the numismatic industry as a whole through the global network represented by the guild's membership. >>
It SOUNDS so great. But my perception is otherwise.
"Membership in the PNG, while it has grown considerably since Kosoff's day, is still limited to the finest numismatic professionals in the world. "
"Once membership in the guild is bestowed, a dealer is held to the highest standards of ethics and professionalism."
"if disagreements arise during numismatic transactions with a PNG dealer, the PNG will act to make sure that the matter is resolved in a professional and competent manner."
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
By the way, I heard that no one has ever filed a complaint against a PNG dealer for selling them an AT coin. Heard otherwise? Trust me..."I can handle the truth."
If I had thought anything would ever come of being sold AT coins by leading PNG dealers back in the 1980's I would have filed several suits over the years. Something tells me it wouldn't have mattered. The one time I did file a complaint was against a dealer who handled an auction consignment very poorly and had been out of contact for weeks after the auction concluded. Imagine my surprise when some of my lots sold for considerably under my requested reserves. The PNG was able to help me get the difference lost as the dealer had never bothered to request the reserves.
I once asked a PNG dealer why a notorious coin crook from the pre-slab days was a member of PNG...and still is to this day. That same person is considered a major luminary of the hobby today. The reply I got was that it's easier to monitor their actions from inside rather than outside. Well it made sense at the time. I suspect having JA inside PNG will mean less damage to PNG than if he remained on the outside.
<< <i>If I had thought anything would ever come of being sold AT coins by leading PNG dealers back in the 1980's I would have filed several suits over the years. Something tells me it wouldn't have mattered. >>
Let me take a wild guess, the fate of this lawsuit.
<< <i>I once asked a PNG dealer why a notorious coin crook from the pre-slab days was a member of PNG...and still is to this day. That same person is considered a major luminary of the hobby today. The reply I got was that it's easier to monitor their actions from inside rather than outside. Well it made sense at the time. I suspect having JA inside PNG will mean less damage to PNG than if he remained on the outside. >>
That's my experience.
There some wonderful dealers in the PNG who are among the top people in their profession. They are honest, trustworthy and knowledgeable. But that have been a few PNG members with whom I have had some unpleasant experiences, or who have tried in the past to deceive me with problem coins.
To me the PNG is like any other club or organization. There are some very good members, and there are others who are best avoided.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors. >>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I wish I would have been a fly on the wall looking down on a few ferrets when this post flashed up on the screen for the first time......
Truth is, like I said a few million posts ago.......it's easier to change an organization from the inside than from the outside. My suspicions are that Mr. Albanese is one very wise person with good intentions and a can-do attitude. I wouldn't imagine that anyone that could found NGC and CAC would be anthing but that.
Good thing for John, good thing for PNG, good thing for eveyone, even the ferrets.
<< <i>Or maybe he wanted to lower his ethics and standards.
This guy does not need PNG-they sorely need him. >>
****** LONG POST ALERT - SOME MIGHT SKIP - I WISH I HAD *****
Dave, I've heard a lot of good news about this Albanese guy.
He talks and works with the heads of both services. They all have various related interests in cleaning up the mess, patching up the system, and getting on with their work.
But don't get over-excited about this, Dave.
Just because he's now in PNG doesn't mean JA will let himself be pushed around by a trash-talkin potty-mouth like *She, Who Shall Not Be Named*. But he's probably smart and shrewd enough to get some of the Guild, which has many more good apples than bad, to recognize, person by person, and inch by inch, where enlightened self-interest might lead.
Some of the mealy-mouths, the vultures, the "things that go bump in the dark of night"? Their days are not numbered, Dave, that's just how it rolls, but they'll likely be a little bit less sunny.
For all we know JA joined PNG to give himself professional and financial credibility. Now the people who didn't know him, or that his checks were good, can once again sleep through the night.
A former recipient of the PNG Consumer Advocate Award once explained the Draconian rigors to which every PNG member must submit. "if you screw somebody, and you get caught, you have to give the money back". I think JA can fulfill PNG's expectations better than he'll fulfill yours. You get a little impatient, Dave.
They and we all know we rely most on our hosts and ATS. Their efforts have been having a lot more impact. And, from other directions, lots of things will come together in ways as yet unenvisioned. A creaky system will somewhat operate.
No one can deny that *She, Who..* has taken a seminal role in the shift we've seen over the last several years. Credit is due. This Albanese fella probably should appreciate that *She, Who..*'s sticking *Her* neck out when knighting him "Galahad".
Dave, I hope we don't see the day when *She, Who...* Goes Rogue. Her neuro-transmitters are sometimes suspect, but she had some good points to make. And with all due respect to Glenn, I must say she presents her case a good deal more coherently and effectively than Mr. Beck. JA might profit from her counsel.
Picture a world where, while there may not be all that many fewer coin doctors, nor all that fewer doctored coins, we'll be better able to avoid a lot more of the traps.
I doubt that JA and CAC would assume the moral responsibility to clean up the sludge. It's not global warming. My guess is they just want to cherry pick and say "Our check is always good. Today we'll pay $150 each for 1000, and no, we don't care about the next bid being $138".
Maybe PNG can work with the idea that a "cleaner" product line provides more opportunities for markets to form and operate more efficiently. Time will tell.
Just picture a world in which the big-bucks segment of the market will be kept free of sludge. They will eventually get rid of more of their dreck.
Picture it. A world where lots of smaller-timers will, very briefly, see a gem or two in the moments before it Ascends. They will also have better quality dreck dumped on them, so they will come to know of the differences between better and lesser dreck, and to quickly recognize and blow off their sludge fast and cheap to
people who sell the sludge to people who sell the sludge to people who advertise and prowl for internet and cable shop-at-home suckers who eat up the sludge and who will continue to get screwed with sludge, and in ever-increasing numbers, for ever-increasing amounts of money, for from now until when Hell finally freezes over.
I doubt that this will be enough to satisfy *She Who Once B*tch-Slapped That Beck Guy for Being Such a Wuss*.
Maybe your heroic standard-bearer will relax a bit now, knowing, at last, that the torch has been passed, and that others have come to carry it in the direction that *She, Who..* has shown.
Let *Her, Who..* retreat to *Her* new luxurious barely used tropical hideaway. Fresh from a massage we would all envy, *She, Who..* can lay in her hammock, a cool one and a plateful of maguro sushi at hand, lots of wasabi to improve her disposition and her dyspepsia, and know *She's* free at last.
*Her* work here now is done. *She, Who..* can get back to sitting around at auctions, waiting for the one coin out of a hundred that's better than dreck, bored, and playing "lazy 8's", napping more often, mellower than ever.
But if Albanese hasn't cleaned up PNG by ANA, watch out. They may be old friends, they may own stock in the same company, but when *She, Who..* gets squirrely, then the nuclear option is never off the table. If that happens, as Mr. T used to say, "I Pity the Fool !!!"
When this "best of all possible worlds" is inevitably found to be imperfect, when the Snake is again whispering in the Garden, someone's gonna hafta pay.
I hope this poor Albanese can live up to half of *Her, Who*'s expectations.
And you and me, Dave, we'll just have to wait and see.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
jeez jessup. I dunno what to say. I need a long massage to think about it.
Albanese sure isn't joing because he thinks the PNG is changing-Laura has proved it does not have the ablility. I think he is wasting his time.
I laugh at the fools in PNG who stand up and say: "make a complaint". I guess we never want to believe coin doctoring exists then. Next they'll probably declare victory that they have cleaned up because Albanese joined. Jay Leno or Letterman could do a weeks worth of jokes about the PNG and its members.
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I'll tell you, if I were the PNG, and I had just got a membership application from this guy, and I just read the foregoing from his girlfriend, I think I'd be, well, duh, a little concerned about his motives.
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors. >>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I'll tell you, if I were the PNG, and I had just got a membership application from this guy, and I just read the foregoing from his girlfriend, I think I'd be, well, duh, a little concerned about his motives. Then, again, maybe that's just me... >>
<< <i>jeez jessup. I dunno what to say. I need a long massage to think about it.
Albanese sure isn't joing because he thinks the PNG is changing-Laura has proved it does not have the ablility. I think he is wasting his time.
I laugh at the fools in PNG who stand up and say: "make a complaint". I guess we never want to believe coin doctoring exists then. Next they'll probably declare victory that they have cleaned up because Albanese joined. Jay Leno or Letterman could do a weeks worth of jokes about the PNG and its members. >>
Dave, is your only source of information these message boards and the Legend market reports? Noone is saying that doctoring does not exist. The debate is how to deal with coins that have been doctored and or conserved. There is a market for everything from the lowliest of dreck to the greatest rarities. The people who are the doctors who deceptively move metal have essentially conceded that what they are doing is not OK and that the debate (as it was at the meeting) is the role grading services are playing in all of this. The debate is over whether a coin that has been worked on has become in some ways unsalable even being sold with full disclosure. This may seem like a good thing to people in the ivory tower of numismatics but the reality is that those of us in the trenches of the real world have customers who want second quality because they don't have indefinately deep pockets and want to own a piece of this history.
I am in favor of stopping the deceptive practices Laura is talking about. I disagree with her approach and would challenge her to actually do something about it. At the PNG meeting she said nothing. Ya so she went and talked to the board and they blew her off. Why doesn't she stand up in front of the entire membership and speak her mind. Gary Tancer gave an impassioned speech at the PNG meeting and people continued to talk about it through out the whole show. Same goes for the speeches given by Vic Bozarth and Mary Herzog. Better yet why doesn't she join, get on the board and then do something about it. Passive aggression and putting market reports will not change anything. Talking to the internet will not accomplish anything. I want to see her go toe to toe with the old boys.
Dave if you want credibility, why don't you step up and identify yourself.
Greeniejr, hate to disappoint you as to who I am not. Sorry.
At least Laura brought up the subject of coin doctoring while you and your kind sat around and were just yawning about when the next PNG dinner was.
Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn. According to everything thats come out of that FUN Meeting-three things happened, the membership voted out a definition of coin doctoring, and there was an ambush on the board by two defendants in the lawsuit, and the others tried really hard to blame PCGS for all the problems.
<< <i>Greeniejr, hate to disappoint you as to who I am not. Sorry.
At least Laura brought up the subject of coin doctoring while you and your kind sat around and were just yawning about when the next PNG dinner was.
Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn. According to everything thats come out of that FUN Meeting-three things happened, the membership voted out a definition of coin doctoring, and there was an ambush on the board by two defendants in the lawsuit, and the others tried really hard to blame PCGS for all the problems.
What postivies happened I did not read? >>
Dave, I am making no presuppositions as to who you are. Pretty much everyone else on this boards identifies themselves which makes understanding their viewpoint easier. TDN is very upfront with who he is and it helps in understanding his point of view. It seems you are the only one hiding behind the monitor. The membership taking down the board decision was the right thing to do. It was done in a forced and rushed way and there are better ways to go about it. What is coming of this is that some of the quieter members who in the past had stood by the wayside are talking. There are people who are in the PNG who will likely be stepping up come election time who will bring change. But seeing as you were not there (or were you?) you wouldn't know.
Change is coming? That is a joke. Why has there not been changes before? Why have so many one time board members thrown their hands up and not rerun?
Your talking so "old gaurd" its hilarous. Jessup is right-I shouldn't pick on Leno and Letterman.
Look, the case was clearly stated in Coin World. You had several members who were caught red handed coin doctoring. Does not matter if the case was thrown out of on technical grounds-you had members busted. Then I read these guys stood up at your meeting and shot down PCGS? Please....
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing.
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing. >>
John Albanese is married and Laura Sperber is not his girlfriend. Please stop with the playground talk. And nothing has been mentioned about his "trying so hard to join". He merely applied for membership.
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I'll tell you, if I were the PNG, and I had just got a membership application from this guy, and I just read the foregoing from his girlfriend, I think I'd be, well, duh, a little concerned about his motives.
Then, again, maybe that's just me... >>
It's just you.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing. >>
John Albanese is married and Laura Sperber is not his girlfriend. Please stop with the playground talk. And nothing has been mentioned about his "trying so hard to join". He merely applied for membership. >>
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Too many edits going on now. Going to bashing and trashing others as is the norm in these long threads. Not worth wasting my time any more on this subject.
My suspicions are that you have no assets or common sense or both. Just a suspicion. >>
Adrian, I think it's you that are lacking in civility. Assets and common sense aside, as we don't know each other and I couldn't comment on that But I can cite your general obnoxiousness. First you remark on "the recently deaceased Bruce Morelan", and now this tripe about JA and LS. I'm not quite sure what your agenda is here.
Adrian, I think it's you that are lacking in civility. Assets and common sense aside, as we don't know each other and I couldn't comment on that But I can cite your general obnoxiousness. First you remark on "the recently deaceased Bruce Morelan", and now this tripe about JA and LS. I'm not quite sure what your agenda is here.
I hate to have to explain things to people, but not everyone "gets it". So, this is for you, jhdfla.
1. First of all, Bruce and I have a long history of bantering against each other. We do it in good fun, usually with a little bit of sting to it. He likes to post images of a mistake I made. I like to tease him about anything I can. I like him and he has stated publicly that he likes me. We're not dating though.
Mark Twain also had some playful detractors....they started a rumor about him that he was dead, when he wasn't. You may now remember his famous quote: "Rumors of my death are greatly exagerated." Do I need to explain it further for you? Let me know if you do....don't be shy. Maybe you are not familiar with Mark Twain.
2. We live in a litigious society, I have heard. Libeling a company (often called defamation or commercial disparagement) like PNG can get you sued. If you don't think so, do a word search in google for "verdicts for libel on the internet". When you get sued you have to hire lawyers who bill you to death. So, when you libel any entity, even if you win, you still have to pay the lawyers, which means you lose......always....usually 30-50K for a simple case.
3. People who make libelous comments usually have a history of doing that and other not so smart things. They have bad judgment which also manifests itself in eventual poverty. So, when someone sets themself up to get sued, they usually have the bad judgment that goes along with it.....which usually is accompanied by no assets......or common sense: another phrase for good judgment. So, now do you understand my suspicions?
4. As for tripe about JA and LS, you're confusing me with someone else. I have said nothing derogatory about either one of them.
Now, as to my agenda? Have fun, make people think and point out idiots in a subtle way so as to not hurt their feelings but also in a way so that the non-idiots can laugh under their breaths at them. Further questions? Please feel free to say whatever comes to your mind.
Oh, one more thing. I also try to come to the defense of my friends. While I am no longer a coin dealer and hence no longer a member of PNG, to say "Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn" is not true and needs defending. The PNG is a good organization and while they surely are not perfect, buyers who do business with members of the PNG get important protections they wouldn't get otherwise. And, that is an easy fact to prove.
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing. >>
Kindly quit being an ass. I'm sure you can make cognizant points without insulting two upstanding numismatists.
"Just as every cop is a criminal and all the sinners saints, as heads is tails just call me Lucifer 'cause I'm in need of some restraint" ...................................... Glitter Twins
Part of the core of a knowledge of inescapable human nature that guides me from one pothole to another on the Road.
Perhaps some knowledge of high-school Latin might illuminate
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>Yes, I agree. I guess. I certainly wouldn't want to be "for coin doctors." That would be politically incorect. >>
I think there are factors other than political correctness that are driving the distaste for coin doctors, financial loss being one of them.
<< <i>However, can you please tell me what is precisely "coin doctoring?" >>
How about this definition?
<< <i>Coin doctoring is the action of a person or the enabling of another to alter a coin’s surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, and thereby represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value.
Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or manipulating the surfaces of proof coins, applying substances to the surface of coins to hide marks and defects, hiding marks or otherwise changing the appearance of a coin by adding toning, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create “cameo” frost on the devices of proof coins, and making a coin appear more fully struck by re-engraving portions of the devices, such as re-engraving bands on the reverse of a Mercury Dime or adding head detail to a Standing Liberty Quarter.
Altering dates or mintmarks or other struck portions of a coin to make it appear to be from a mint date or type other than that of origin, and altering business strike coins to make them resemble proof issues are also examples of coin doctoring. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive, but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring. >>
Just spoke with John Albanese. Here's his reasoning in a nutshell [paraphrased]:
He's been critical of the PNG for years, but it hasn't changed as a result. At the same time, he sees no other organization that is in an equivalent position to effect positive change. 80% of the dealers that he respects are PNG members. From here on out, he won't make waves publicly but rather will work behind the scenes for change. He expects the PNG to be much more respected a few years from now if he and the people he knows and respects in the PNG are successful.
According to that definition, it appears repairing and conserving a coin are ok as long as the doctor or enabler does not "represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value."
<< <i>Just spoke with John Albanese. Here's his reasoning in a nutshell [paraphrased]:
He's been critical of the PNG for years, but it hasn't changed as a result. At the same time, he sees no other organization that is in an equivalent position to effect positive change. 80% of the dealers that he respects are PNG members. From here on out, he won't make waves publicly but rather will work behind the scenes for change. He expects the PNG to be much more respected a few years from now if he and the peope he knows and respects in the PNG are successful. >>
<< <i>That helps. Looks like something out of a petition or complaint.
The core of that definition is: "diminish or conceal defects". They list a bunch of stuff that should not be done.
I think it would be a better definition if it included things that are permissible and not thought of as coin doctoring.
Some suggestions:
Repairing holes. Removing spots. Removing contaminants. Restoring color to a harshly cleaned copper coin.
Please feel free to add to this list. >>
In my opinion the only "doctoring" that is acceptable is any process that a coin might be able to encounter in circulation. There is no reasonable chance a coin might get a hole plugged in circulation but it might easily fall in some chemical that strips corrosion or tarnish. It could even fall in Jeweluster. But it can't get puttied or have the hairlines polished or lasered out. It might get thumbed or worn to a lower grade but it won't have detail added to it.
Coin doctoring is about moving metal or adding something to look like metal. Baked goods and taco napkins are buyer beware.
<< <i>Just spoke with John Albanese. Here's his reasoning in a nutshell [paraphrased]:
He's been critical of the PNG for years, but it hasn't changed as a result. At the same time, he sees no other organization that is in an equivalent position to effect positive change. 80% of the dealers that he respects are PNG members. From here on out, he won't make waves publicly but rather will work behind the scenes for change. He expects the PNG to be much more respected a few years from now if he and the peope he know and respect are successful.
Otherwise, Laura will kill him. lol >>
The important work doesn't get done in the meetings.
It's not about winning debates, but creating win-win situations. Calm, reasoned, deliberate incremental consensus-building doesn't create many headlines, but the results last far longer than the actions of a flash-mob.
And he's a master at negotiations in quiet, out-of-the-way sushi bars.
He's so smooth, in fact, that it's only when, even after you've paid the check, that you realize that there's more in your pocket then when you came.
And we're all relieved to hear that, for the moment at least, the nuclear option is off the table.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I don't know. If money is involved, then people are going to be corruptible. This is a heck of a problem to try and solve. As a non-investor collector, I try to keep a hard line on this as best I can. I hope I never get embroiled into the self-deception that occurs when the money gets big.
<<He's so smooth, in fact, that it's only when, even after you've paid the check, that you realize that there's more in your pocket then when you came.
>>
Well said! Or in my case, he was so smooth, that I had no idea he had turned on the seat warmer for the passenger seat I was in, in the middle of summer. At least not until I started sweating profusely.
Comments
<< <i> ...what we need is an intelligent, effective and impassioned assault.
PCGS, NGC and CAC are, in their own very different ways, doing exactly that. And nobody can doubt that Laura is, to some extent, behind it all. >>
<< <i>
<< <i> ...what we need is an intelligent, effective and impassioned assault.
PCGS, NGC and CAC are, in their own very different ways, doing exactly that. And nobody can doubt that Laura is, to some extent, behind it all. >>
Even the Road Less Traveled. But isn't this yesterday's news?
Perhaps her work is done, as others (per above) have all the leverage needed to work on this. All those flawed damn human beings keep messing up Utopia. For truly, gloriously, and also sadly "this is best of all possible worlds".
Of course, a world without spelll-chek would be a world none of us would deem worthy to inhabit.
<< <i>The PNG has expelled members When? And for what? Probably failure to pay dues.
No, I was never kicked out and I stopped paying my dues. Just thought I'd let you know.
I think they do such a good job investigating people that they don't have to kick anyone out.
By the way, I heard that no one has ever filed a complaint against a PNG dealer for selling them an AT coin. Heard otherwise? Trust me..."I can handle the truth."
And let's turn the tables around....do you know of anyone that should be kicked out of the PNG who has not been kicked out? Notice I did not say publicly identify them in this thread.
(And by the way, I know some people who are not members of the PNG and shouldn't be.)
"The Professional Numismatists Guild--PNG--had its inception in 1950 with renowned coin dealer Abe Kosoff. As the rare coin hobby and industry started to expand rapidly in the decades following World War II, Kosoff and other dealers felt that the market would benefit greatly through the activities of an organized group of dealers and other numismatic professionals. The PNG was founded in 1955 through the efforts of Kosoff and others, and it continues to serve the rare coin industry as a not-for-profit organization promoting knowledge, integrity and responsibility among its dealer members.
Membership in the PNG, while it has grown considerably since Kosoff's day, is still limited to the finest numismatic professionals in the world. In order to obtain membership in this prestigious organization, a dealer must demonstrate experience in the rare coin market, have substantial financial resources and be elected by a majority of the current membership of the guild. Once membership in the guild is bestowed, a dealer is held to the highest standards of ethics and professionalism. The PNG is governed by a set of rules and regulations to which all members are bound, which include an arbitration process for settling differences between buyers and sellers of numismatic property. In other words, if disagreements arise during numismatic transactions with a PNG dealer, the PNG will act to make sure that the matter is resolved in a professional and competent manner. The actions of each of its members reflects not only upon the entire PNG, but the numismatic industry as a whole through the global network represented by the guild's membership.
<< <i>from Morgangold.com (Steve Deeds site....found it clicking on Google Adwords diplayed in this forum)
"The Professional Numismatists Guild--PNG--had its inception in 1950 with renowned coin dealer Abe Kosoff. As the rare coin hobby and industry started to expand rapidly in the decades following World War II, Kosoff and other dealers felt that the market would benefit greatly through the activities of an organized group of dealers and other numismatic professionals. The PNG was founded in 1955 through the efforts of Kosoff and others, and it continues to serve the rare coin industry as a not-for-profit organization promoting knowledge, integrity and responsibility among its dealer members.
Membership in the PNG, while it has grown considerably since Kosoff's day, is still limited to the finest numismatic professionals in the world. In order to obtain membership in this prestigious organization, a dealer must demonstrate experience in the rare coin market, have substantial financial resources and be elected by a majority of the current membership of the guild. Once membership in the guild is bestowed, a dealer is held to the highest standards of ethics and professionalism. The PNG is governed by a set of rules and regulations to which all members are bound, which include an arbitration process for settling differences between buyers and sellers of numismatic property. In other words, if disagreements arise during numismatic transactions with a PNG dealer, the PNG will act to make sure that the matter is resolved in a professional and competent manner. The actions of each of its members reflects not only upon the entire PNG, but the numismatic industry as a whole through the global network represented by the guild's membership. >>
It SOUNDS so great. But my perception is otherwise.
<< <i>What specifically do you not agree with? >>
These parts:
"Membership in the PNG, while it has grown considerably since Kosoff's day, is still limited to the finest numismatic professionals in the world. "
"Once membership in the guild is bestowed, a dealer is held to the highest standards of ethics and professionalism."
"if disagreements arise during numismatic transactions with a PNG dealer, the PNG will act to make sure that the matter is resolved in a professional and competent manner."
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Good - maybe he'll shake things up a little.
This guy does not need PNG-they sorely need him.
If I had thought anything would ever come of being sold AT coins by leading PNG dealers back in the 1980's I would have filed several suits over the years. Something tells me it wouldn't have mattered. The one time I did file a complaint was against a dealer who handled an auction consignment very poorly and had been out of contact for weeks after the auction concluded. Imagine my surprise when some of my lots sold for considerably under my requested reserves. The PNG was able to help me get the difference lost as the dealer had never bothered to request the reserves.
I once asked a PNG dealer why a notorious coin crook from the pre-slab days was a member of PNG...and still is to this day. That same person is considered a major luminary of the hobby today. The reply I got was that it's easier to monitor their actions from inside rather than outside. Well it made sense at the time. I suspect having JA inside PNG will mean less damage to PNG than if he remained on the outside.
roadrunner
<< <i>If I had thought anything would ever come of being sold AT coins by leading PNG dealers back in the 1980's I would have filed several suits over the years. Something tells me it wouldn't have mattered. >>
Let me take a wild guess, the fate of this lawsuit.
<< <i>I once asked a PNG dealer why a notorious coin crook from the pre-slab days was a member of PNG...and still is to this day. That same person is considered a major luminary of the hobby today. The reply I got was that it's easier to monitor their actions from inside rather than outside. Well it made sense at the time. I suspect having JA inside PNG will mean less damage to PNG than if he remained on the outside. >>
That's my experience.
There some wonderful dealers in the PNG who are among the top people in their profession. They are honest, trustworthy and knowledgeable. But that have been a few PNG members with whom I have had some unpleasant experiences, or who have tried in the past to deceive me with problem coins.
To me the PNG is like any other club or organization. There are some very good members, and there are others who are best avoided.
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors. >>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I wish I would have been a fly on the wall looking down on a few ferrets when this post flashed up on the screen for the first time......
Truth is, like I said a few million posts ago.......it's easier to change an organization from the inside than from the outside. My suspicions are that Mr. Albanese is one very wise person with good intentions and a can-do attitude. I wouldn't imagine that anyone that could found NGC and CAC would be anthing but that.
Good thing for John, good thing for PNG, good thing for eveyone, even the ferrets.
<< <i>Or maybe he wanted to lower his ethics and standards.
This guy does not need PNG-they sorely need him. >>
****** LONG POST ALERT - SOME MIGHT SKIP - I WISH I HAD *****
Dave, I've heard a lot of good news about this Albanese guy.
He talks and works with the heads of both services. They all have various related interests in cleaning up the mess, patching up the system, and getting on with their work.
But don't get over-excited about this, Dave.
Just because he's now in PNG doesn't mean JA will let himself be pushed around by a trash-talkin potty-mouth like *She, Who Shall Not Be Named*. But he's probably smart and shrewd enough to get some of the Guild, which has many more good apples than bad, to recognize, person by person, and inch by inch, where enlightened self-interest might lead.
Some of the mealy-mouths, the vultures, the "things that go bump in the dark of night"? Their days are not numbered, Dave, that's just how it rolls, but they'll likely be a little bit less sunny.
For all we know JA joined PNG to give himself professional and financial credibility. Now the people who didn't know him, or that his checks were good, can once again sleep through the night.
A former recipient of the PNG Consumer Advocate Award once explained the Draconian rigors to which every PNG member must submit. "if you screw somebody, and you get caught, you have to give the money back". I think JA can fulfill PNG's expectations better than he'll fulfill yours. You get a little impatient, Dave.
They and we all know we rely most on our hosts and ATS. Their efforts have been having a lot more impact. And, from other directions, lots of things will come together in ways as yet unenvisioned. A creaky system will somewhat operate.
No one can deny that *She, Who..* has taken a seminal role in the shift we've seen over the last several years. Credit is due. This Albanese fella probably should appreciate that *She, Who..*'s sticking *Her* neck out when knighting him "Galahad".
Dave, I hope we don't see the day when *She, Who...* Goes Rogue. Her neuro-transmitters are sometimes suspect, but she had some good points to make. And with all due respect to Glenn, I must say she presents her case a good deal more coherently and effectively than Mr. Beck. JA might profit from her counsel.
Picture a world where, while there may not be all that many fewer coin doctors, nor all that fewer doctored coins, we'll be better able to avoid a lot more of the traps.
I doubt that JA and CAC would assume the moral responsibility to clean up the sludge. It's not global warming. My guess is they just want to cherry pick and say "Our check is always good. Today we'll pay $150 each for 1000, and no, we don't care about the next bid being $138".
Maybe PNG can work with the idea that a "cleaner" product line provides more opportunities for markets to form and operate more efficiently. Time will tell.
Just picture a world in which the big-bucks segment of the market will be kept free of sludge. They will eventually get rid of more of their dreck.
Picture it. A world where lots of smaller-timers will, very briefly, see a gem or two in the moments before it Ascends. They will also have better quality dreck dumped on them, so they will come to know of the differences between better and lesser dreck, and to quickly recognize and blow off their sludge fast and cheap to
people who sell the sludge
to people who sell the sludge
to people who advertise and prowl
for internet and cable shop-at-home suckers
who eat up the sludge
and who will continue to get screwed with sludge,
and in ever-increasing numbers,
for ever-increasing amounts of money,
for from now until when Hell finally freezes over.
I doubt that this will be enough to satisfy *She Who Once B*tch-Slapped That Beck Guy for Being Such a Wuss*.
Maybe your heroic standard-bearer will relax a bit now, knowing, at last, that the torch has been passed, and that others have come to carry it in the direction that *She, Who..* has shown.
Let *Her, Who..* retreat to *Her* new luxurious barely used tropical hideaway. Fresh from a massage we would all envy, *She, Who..* can lay in her hammock, a cool one and a plateful of maguro sushi at hand, lots of wasabi to improve her disposition and her dyspepsia, and know *She's* free at last.
*Her* work here now is done. *She, Who..* can get back to sitting around at auctions, waiting for the one coin out of a hundred that's better than dreck, bored, and playing "lazy 8's", napping more often, mellower than ever.
But if Albanese hasn't cleaned up PNG by ANA, watch out. They may be old friends, they may own stock in the same company, but when *She, Who..* gets squirrely, then the nuclear option is never off the table. If that happens, as Mr. T used to say, "I Pity the Fool !!!"
When this "best of all possible worlds" is inevitably found to be imperfect, when the Snake is again whispering in the Garden, someone's gonna hafta pay.
I hope this poor Albanese can live up to half of *Her, Who*'s expectations.
And you and me, Dave, we'll just have to wait and see.
Albanese sure isn't joing because he thinks the PNG is changing-Laura has proved it does not have the ablility. I think he is wasting his time.
I laugh at the fools in PNG who stand up and say: "make a complaint". I guess we never want to believe coin doctoring exists then. Next they'll probably declare victory that they have cleaned up because Albanese joined. Jay Leno or Letterman could do a weeks worth of jokes about the PNG and its members.
What do you have against Leno and Letterman? By the second night Conan's ratings will be off the chart.
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I'll tell you, if I were the PNG, and I had just got a membership application from this guy, and I just read the foregoing from his girlfriend, I think I'd be, well, duh, a little concerned about his motives.
Then, again, maybe that's just me...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors. >>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I'll tell you, if I were the PNG, and I had just got a membership application from this guy, and I just read the foregoing from his girlfriend, I think I'd be, well, duh, a little concerned about his motives. Then, again, maybe that's just me... >>
They're dating? I doubt that.
<< <i>They're dating?
Rumor has it...
<< <i>jeez jessup. I dunno what to say. I need a long massage to think about it.
Albanese sure isn't joing because he thinks the PNG is changing-Laura has proved it does not have the ablility. I think he is wasting his time.
I laugh at the fools in PNG who stand up and say: "make a complaint". I guess we never want to believe coin doctoring exists then. Next they'll probably declare victory that they have cleaned up because Albanese joined. Jay Leno or Letterman could do a weeks worth of jokes about the PNG and its members. >>
Dave, is your only source of information these message boards and the Legend market reports? Noone is saying that doctoring does not exist. The debate is how to deal with coins that have been doctored and or conserved. There is a market for everything from the lowliest of dreck to the greatest rarities. The people who are the doctors who deceptively move metal have essentially conceded that what they are doing is not OK and that the debate (as it was at the meeting) is the role grading services are playing in all of this. The debate is over whether a coin that has been worked on has become in some ways unsalable even being sold with full disclosure. This may seem like a good thing to people in the ivory tower of numismatics but the reality is that those of us in the trenches of the real world have customers who want second quality because they don't have indefinately deep pockets and want to own a piece of this history.
I am in favor of stopping the deceptive practices Laura is talking about. I disagree with her approach and would challenge her to actually do something about it. At the PNG meeting she said nothing. Ya so she went and talked to the board and they blew her off. Why doesn't she stand up in front of the entire membership and speak her mind. Gary Tancer gave an impassioned speech at the PNG meeting and people continued to talk about it through out the whole show. Same goes for the speeches given by Vic Bozarth and Mary Herzog. Better yet why doesn't she join, get on the board and then do something about it. Passive aggression and putting market reports will not change anything. Talking to the internet will not accomplish anything. I want to see her go toe to toe with the old boys.
Dave if you want credibility, why don't you step up and identify yourself.
Who are YOU?
At least Laura brought up the subject of coin doctoring while you and your kind sat around and were just yawning about when the next PNG dinner was.
Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn. According to everything thats come out of that FUN Meeting-three things happened, the membership voted out a definition of coin doctoring, and there was an ambush on the board by two defendants in the lawsuit, and the others tried really hard to blame PCGS for all the problems.
What postivies happened I did not read?
The cheese blintzes were really, really good....
<< <i>Greeniejr, hate to disappoint you as to who I am not. Sorry.
At least Laura brought up the subject of coin doctoring while you and your kind sat around and were just yawning about when the next PNG dinner was.
Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn. According to everything thats come out of that FUN Meeting-three things happened, the membership voted out a definition of coin doctoring, and there was an ambush on the board by two defendants in the lawsuit, and the others tried really hard to blame PCGS for all the problems.
What postivies happened I did not read? >>
Dave, I am making no presuppositions as to who you are. Pretty much everyone else on this boards identifies themselves which makes understanding their viewpoint easier. TDN is very upfront with who he is and it helps in understanding his point of view. It seems you are the only one hiding behind the monitor. The membership taking down the board decision was the right thing to do. It was done in a forced and rushed way and there are better ways to go about it. What is coming of this is that some of the quieter members who in the past had stood by the wayside are talking. There are people who are in the PNG who will likely be stepping up come election time who will bring change. But seeing as you were not there (or were you?) you wouldn't know.
Change is coming? That is a joke. Why has there not been changes before? Why have so many one time board members thrown their hands up and not rerun?
Your talking so "old gaurd" its hilarous. Jessup is right-I shouldn't pick on Leno and Letterman.
Look, the case was clearly stated in Coin World. You had several members who were caught red handed coin doctoring. Does not matter if the case was thrown out of on technical grounds-you had members busted. Then I read these guys stood up at your meeting and shot down PCGS? Please....
We can agree to disagree.
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing.
<< <i>
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing. >>
John Albanese is married and Laura Sperber is not his girlfriend. Please stop with the playground talk. And nothing has been mentioned about his "trying so hard to join". He merely applied for membership.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura states (in the site referenced by TDN):
John Albanese, and Joe O Connor are NOT members (of the PNG). Each of us HATES coin doctoring and coin doctors.
>>
FYI, John Albanese has applied for membership in the PNG and will almost certainly be accepted later this month. >>
Well, I'll tell you, if I were the PNG, and I had just got a membership application from this guy, and I just read the foregoing from his girlfriend, I think I'd be, well, duh, a little concerned about his motives.
Then, again, maybe that's just me... >>
It's just you.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing. >>
John Albanese is married and Laura Sperber is not his girlfriend. Please stop with the playground talk. And nothing has been mentioned about his "trying so hard to join". He merely applied for membership. >>
<< <i>Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn. >>
Most numismatists would not agree with you at all.
<< <i>
<< <i>Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn. >>
My suspicions are that you have no assets or common sense or both. Just a suspicion. >>
Adrian, I think it's you that are lacking in civility. Assets and common sense aside, as we don't know each other and I couldn't comment on that But I can cite your general obnoxiousness. First you remark on "the recently deaceased Bruce Morelan", and now this tripe about JA and LS. I'm not quite sure what your agenda is here.
John
Adrian, I think it's you that are lacking in civility. Assets and common sense aside, as we don't know each other and I couldn't comment on that But I can cite your general obnoxiousness. First you remark on "the recently deaceased Bruce Morelan", and now this tripe about JA and LS. I'm not quite sure what your agenda is here.
I hate to have to explain things to people, but not everyone "gets it". So, this is for you, jhdfla.
1. First of all, Bruce and I have a long history of bantering against each other. We do it in good fun, usually with a little bit of sting to it. He likes to post images of a mistake I made. I like to tease him about anything I can. I like him and he has stated publicly that he likes me. We're not dating though.
Mark Twain also had some playful detractors....they started a rumor about him that he was dead, when he wasn't. You may now remember his famous quote: "Rumors of my death are greatly exagerated." Do I need to explain it further for you? Let me know if you do....don't be shy. Maybe you are not familiar with Mark Twain.
2. We live in a litigious society, I have heard. Libeling a company (often called defamation or commercial disparagement) like PNG can get you sued. If you don't think so, do a word search in google for "verdicts for libel on the internet". When you get sued you have to hire lawyers who bill you to death. So, when you libel any entity, even if you win, you still have to pay the lawyers, which means you lose......always....usually 30-50K for a simple case.
3. People who make libelous comments usually have a history of doing that and other not so smart things. They have bad judgment which also manifests itself in eventual poverty. So, when someone sets themself up to get sued, they usually have the bad judgment that goes along with it.....which usually is accompanied by no assets......or common sense: another phrase for good judgment. So, now do you understand my suspicions?
4. As for tripe about JA and LS, you're confusing me with someone else. I have said nothing derogatory about either one of them.
Now, as to my agenda? Have fun, make people think and point out idiots in a subtle way so as to not hurt their feelings but also in a way so that the non-idiots can laugh under their breaths at them. Further questions? Please feel free to say whatever comes to your mind.
Oh, one more thing. I also try to come to the defense of my friends. While I am no longer a coin dealer and hence no longer a member of PNG, to say "Publically, the PNG is not worth a damn" is not true and needs defending. The PNG is a good organization and while they surely are not perfect, buyers who do business with members of the PNG get important protections they wouldn't get otherwise. And, that is an easy fact to prove.
<< <i>
<< <i>This certainly gives a pretty clear picture of the PNG. Not exactly sure why anyone would want to join (at least in its current state). >>
Why don't you ask this girl's boyfriend why he's trying so hard to join it? Really, her "hot topic" is the chosen subject of this thread, isn't it? Heck, at least I had the courtesy of reading the darn thing. >>
Kindly quit being an ass. I'm sure you can make cognizant points without insulting two upstanding numismatists.
<< <i>buyers who do business with members of the PNG get important protections they wouldn't get otherwise. >>
It would be nice if buyers were protected from doctored coins.
However, can you please tell me what is precisely "coin doctoring?"
and all the sinners saints,
as heads is tails
just call me Lucifer
'cause I'm in need of some restraint"
...................................... Glitter Twins
Part of the core of a knowledge of inescapable human nature that guides me from one pothole to another on the Road.
Perhaps some knowledge of high-school Latin might illuminate
<< <i>Yes, I agree. I guess. I certainly wouldn't want to be "for coin doctors." That would be politically incorect. >>
I think there are factors other than political correctness that are driving the distaste for coin doctors, financial loss being one of them.
<< <i>However, can you please tell me what is precisely "coin doctoring?" >>
How about this definition?
<< <i>Coin doctoring is the action of a person or the enabling of another to alter a coin’s surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, and thereby represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value.
Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or manipulating the surfaces of proof coins, applying substances to the surface of coins to hide marks and defects, hiding marks or otherwise changing the appearance of a coin by adding toning, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create “cameo” frost on the devices of proof coins, and making a coin appear more fully struck by re-engraving portions of the devices, such as re-engraving bands on the reverse of a Mercury Dime or adding head detail to a Standing Liberty Quarter.
Altering dates or mintmarks or other struck portions of a coin to make it appear to be from a mint date or type other than that of origin, and altering business strike coins to make them resemble proof issues are also examples of coin doctoring. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive, but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring. >>
The core of that definition is: "diminish or conceal defects". They list a bunch of stuff that should not be done.
I think it would be a better definition if it included things that are permissible and not thought of as coin doctoring.
Some suggestions:
Repairing holes.
Removing spots.
Removing contaminants.
Restoring color to a harshly cleaned copper coin.
Please feel free to add to this list.
He's been critical of the PNG for years, but it hasn't changed as a result. At the same time, he sees no other organization that is in an equivalent position to effect positive change. 80% of the dealers that he respects are PNG members. From here on out, he won't make waves publicly but rather will work behind the scenes for change. He expects the PNG to be much more respected a few years from now if he and the people he knows and respects in the PNG are successful.
Otherwise, Laura will kill him. lol
According to that definition, it appears repairing and conserving a coin are ok as long as the doctor or enabler does not "represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value."
<< <i>Just spoke with John Albanese. Here's his reasoning in a nutshell [paraphrased]:
He's been critical of the PNG for years, but it hasn't changed as a result. At the same time, he sees no other organization that is in an equivalent position to effect positive change. 80% of the dealers that he respects are PNG members. From here on out, he won't make waves publicly but rather will work behind the scenes for change. He expects the PNG to be much more respected a few years from now if he and the peope he knows and respects in the PNG are successful. >>
Thank you for posting that.
<< <i>That helps. Looks like something out of a petition or complaint.
The core of that definition is: "diminish or conceal defects". They list a bunch of stuff that should not be done.
I think it would be a better definition if it included things that are permissible and not thought of as coin doctoring.
Some suggestions:
Repairing holes.
Removing spots.
Removing contaminants.
Restoring color to a harshly cleaned copper coin.
Please feel free to add to this list. >>
In my opinion the only "doctoring" that is acceptable is any process that a coin
might be able to encounter in circulation. There is no reasonable chance a coin
might get a hole plugged in circulation but it might easily fall in some chemical
that strips corrosion or tarnish. It could even fall in Jeweluster. But it can't get
puttied or have the hairlines polished or lasered out. It might get thumbed or
worn to a lower grade but it won't have detail added to it.
Coin doctoring is about moving metal or adding something to look like metal.
Baked goods and taco napkins are buyer beware.
<< <i>Just spoke with John Albanese. Here's his reasoning in a nutshell [paraphrased]:
He's been critical of the PNG for years, but it hasn't changed as a result. At the same time, he sees no other organization that is in an equivalent position to effect positive change. 80% of the dealers that he respects are PNG members. From here on out, he won't make waves publicly but rather will work behind the scenes for change. He expects the PNG to be much more respected a few years from now if he and the peope he know and respect are successful.
Otherwise, Laura will kill him. lol >>
The important work doesn't get done in the meetings.
It's not about winning debates, but creating win-win situations. Calm, reasoned, deliberate incremental consensus-building doesn't create many headlines, but the results last far longer than the actions of a flash-mob.
And he's a master at negotiations in quiet, out-of-the-way sushi bars.
He's so smooth, in fact, that it's only when, even after you've paid the check, that you realize that there's more in your pocket then when you came.
And we're all relieved to hear that, for the moment at least, the nuclear option is off the table.
This is a heck of a problem to try and solve.
As a non-investor collector, I try to keep a hard line on this as best I can. I hope I never get embroiled into the self-deception that occurs when the money gets big.
<<He's so smooth, in fact, that it's only when, even after you've paid the check, that you realize that there's more in your pocket then when you came.
Well said! Or in my case, he was so smooth, that I had no idea he had turned on the seat warmer for the passenger seat I was in, in the middle of summer. At least not until I started sweating profusely.