<< <i>wasn't NGC somehow connected to NCS, the service that resores coins? >>
NCS neither resores, or restores, coins. They will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. They will not laser coins, build up missing parts, add detail to worn bits, etc. The implication is absurd.
Jessup, you sound like you're still striving for enlightenment even though you are further along than many of us. One thing to consider however: I don't think Buddhism and coins are compatible.
<< <i>wasn't NGC somehow connected to NCS, the service that resores coins? >>
JCMhouston said:
<< <i>NCS neither resores, or restores, coins. They will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. They will not laser coins, build up missing parts, add detail to worn bits, etc. The implication is absurd. >>
I apologize for misspelling the word 'restores'. I apologize for attempting to use the word restore. My implication that NCS restores coins was indeed absurd.
What I should have said is "wasn't NGC somehow connected to NCS, the service that CLEANS coins? To me, I thought I was being generous to NCS (a company that I have no problems with) by using the word 'restore' but if you want to refer to what they do as removing contaminants, which is the same as cleaning, be my guest. From now on, I will try to remember that NCS isn't the company that restores coins, it's the company that CLEANS them. Thank you for correcting me and I am shocked that I was so absurd as to use "restores" instead of "CLEANS". I sit corrected.
<< <i>NCS = good. Coin Doctoring = bad. The distinction is a mile wide and an inch deep. >>
Thank you for joining us. Interestingly enough, NCS was not widely heralded as good when it was started. There are still quite a number of people that do not appreciate what they do. I do, though appreciate what they do.....most of the time.
Now, as to "coin doctoring", I invite you to a thread which I will start to explore just what bad coin doctoring is, by definition. In other words, what is (bad) coin doctoring?
<< <i> Now, as to "coin doctoring", I invite you to a thread which I will start to explore just what bad coin doctoring is, by definition. In other words, what is (bad) coin doctoring? >>
That should be easy enough; anything that adds, removes, or moves metal or looks like metal is bad. Most other things are more likely to be opinion.
<< <i>Once again, if not a member, why does Legend offer PNG among its "Numismatics References" on the About Legend webpage? >>
That page apparently needs updating. It lists NGC's address as Parsippany NJ. I don't think they've been in NJ for years. I guess someone should mention this to Laura so that they can update that page.
<< <i>Bill - The biggest group of numismatic abortions I have seen have been Heraldic Eagle Bust $s in AU. Fully 90% of the ones I've seen imo were either cleaned, bleached, dipped and stripped, AT'd with a bluish gunmetal grey tint, and / or net graded. Very few of them were original, and I've seen four in the last eight years that were nice enough to be in my collection.
Please do us all a favor and start a thread showing the differences between the 4 that were original and the many that weren't. Also, please explain why you deem the four to be original and the others to not be. If you could tell us how you know they were cleaned in the manner that you say they were, that would be good. It would be very educational. >>
1) Can't be done. I've seen the four original coins in eight years of looking at AU coins of the series. One I bought at the end of last year and I put its image here. One was in the Heritage Signature Sale of last June (a 1799 in AU 55) on which I was the underbidder. The two others were seen @ Long Beach between four and five years ago in dealer cases. Said dealers were not large players and did not have websites.
2) Except for the most hideous examples of the series, you need to see the coins in person to really get a feel for what I am discussing. The coin I have has mint luster underneath its original skin. If you really want to see it, rather than a hint of it, you must hold the coin in hand and tilt it.
3) Most cleaning jobs are easy to spot. The coin is too white for a coin over 200 years old. You'll also be able to spot the telltale parallel hairline scratches all going in the same direction. Most silver coins will get bagged for this, but many Bust $s with this affliction get slabbed.
4) You know there is a problem with a coin where there is only a minimal amount of wear on its highpoints - conditionwise, it's a slider - except it's in an AU 50 holder.
5) A greyish tinge on 200 year old circulated silver coins is not unusual. But after you see a number of them, you can distinguish what comes from a coin being that age, versus one that has been cleaned or played-with and then retoned.
Ask anyone who has looked at more than 100 of these in the AU grade, like I have, and you'll get a similar story.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Anaconda - NCS is not one of my favorites, but to suggest that they CLEAN coins in numismatic terms is absurd. >>
You're going to have to fight this one out with JCMhouston who said:
<< NCS neither resores, or restores, coins. They will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. They will not laser coins, build up missing parts, add detail to worn bits, etc. The implication is absurd. >>
"Removing contaminants" is certainly "cleaning".
Me? I liked "restored"
Ya'll fight it out and let me know how I can make you both happy. It is my only goal in life.
<< <i>Another brave soul, willing to be "absurd" in front of TDN.
Bravery has little to do with it. For me, absurdity is second nature. >>
he wants bacon... bacon bacon bacon
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Jessup, you sound like you're still striving for enlightenment even though you are further along than many of us. One thing to consider however: I don't think Buddhism and coins are compatible.
Attachment, while always a problem for those of us living in the material world, will ever be a test of of our acceptance of the limits of our humanity. As a Catholic priest and mentor once told me "Every occasion of sin is also an occasion of Grace".
Easier to say it than to live it.
Perhaps a reading of Rilke's "The Man Watching" would enlighten....
Taxay? Aren't we all a little bit Elvis?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>TDN, to say that NCS doesn't clean coins is to say the Pope isn't Catholic.
That's the most absurd thing I've read in this thread... >>
I think TDN is remembering when he was 12, before he owned all the coins in the world worth over a million dollars, when "Buddy" at the local coin house told him "Don't never clean yuh cones." And TDN said, "no sir, I promise to never clean my coins....promise..."... and he has stuck with that, never letting anyone clean his coins. Conserve and warsh but never clean.
<< <i>Until then, the ranting and complaining is useless. >>
Not necessarily. Remember what P. T. Barnum said:
Please spell my name right. There's a sucker born every minute.
Some people make careers out of ranting and raving.....they appeal to weak people - who are not rare - who want to associate with who they percieve as strong people. >>
What a great thread...........germs of truth throughout
ColJessup- I love the way you weave pop culture into your diatribes. Well done. Talking Heads and The Who lines in the same post.............. instant classic.
Adrian- love your tilt and you ain't to shabby with the keystoke either................enlightning and provocative. Excactly what this board needed imo.....................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Andy - you have a longer collecting/dealing perspective than I do.
Aren't there more blue copper patterns now than pre-NCS??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
<< <i>1. People leading the charge may find the intensity of the moment reason to be absolutist in the way they look at the cause. 2. "Doctoring" may be hard to define at the edges, but Laura's impassioned assault is what this hobby needs. 3. Clean up the subtleties after the battle. >>
My response:
1. Yes, but being absolutist, while it appeals to the "saved" (those that agree with you) also turns many people off who you could have "reached". I see Rush Limbaugh as a Laura Sperber immitator.....and he didn't get a Republican elected in 2009 even though most considered him "the spokesman" for the Republicans.
2. Doctoring is indeed hard to define, and maybe not at the edges....maybe (and forgive the comparison) it's like pornography.....we can't define it but we know it when we see it. An impassioned assault is what we need but not just an impassioned assault...remember Don Quixote? I'll insert the story below. It's actually pretty funny and please don't take my analogy to extremes. All I am trying to say is yes, impassioned assault but one with a well thought out strategy; one that has as its objective the reduction of coin doctoring not just the venting of steam, although that is probably good too! (And.......always remember the most important thing....which is to remember the most important thing!)
3. Sure, I'll go along with that......we can always refine what we define as unacceptable coin doctoring.......and more importantly, don't give up the goal just because things are not going your way right now......AND don't always think you're in a battle with everyone.....remember, not everyone who changes the appearance of coins cares nothing about the hobby or the profession.....or the coins.....maybe they're just misguided according to your standards.
Don Quixote de la Mancha and Sancho Panza, 1863, by Gustave Doré
Plot summary
In the course of their travels, the protagonists meet innkeepers, prostitutes, goatherds, soldiers, priests, escaped convicts, and scorned lovers. These encounters are magnified by Don Quixote’s imagination into chivalrous quests. Don Quixote’s tendency to intervene violently in matters which do not concern him, and his habit of not paying his debts, result in many privations, injuries, and humiliations (with Sancho often getting the worst of it). Finally, Don Quixote is persuaded to return to his home village. The author hints that there was a third quest, but says that records of it have been lost.
First quest He decides to go out as a knight-errant in search of adventure. He dons an old suit of armor, renames himself "Don Quixote de la Mancha," and names his skinny horse "Rocinante". He designates a neighboring farm girl, Aldonza Lorenzo, as his lady love, renaming her Dulcinea del Toboso, while she knows nothing about this.
He sets out in the early morning and ends up at an inn, which he believes to be a castle. He asks the innkeeper, who he thinks to be the lord of the castle, to dub him a knight. He spends the night holding vigil over his armor, where he becomes involved in a fight with muleteers who try to remove his armor from the horse trough so that they can water their mules. The innkeeper then "dubs" him a knight, and sends him on his way. He frees a young boy who is tied to a tree by his master, because the boy had the audacity to ask his master for the wages the boy had earned but had not yet been paid (who is promptly beaten as soon as Quixote leaves). Don Quixote has a run-in with traders from Toledo, who "insult" the imaginary Dulcinea, one of whom severely beats Don Quixote and leaves him on the side of the road. Don Quixote is found and returned to his home by a neighboring peasant, Pedro Crespo.[2]
Second quest Don Quixote plots an escape. Meanwhile, his niece, the housekeeper, the parish curate, and the local barber secretly burn most of the books of chivalry, and seal up his library pretending that a magician has carried it off. Don Quixote approaches another neighbor, Sancho Panza, and asks him to be his squire, promising him governorship of an island. The dull-witted Sancho agrees, and the pair sneak off in the early dawn. It is here that their series of famous adventures begin, starting with Don Quixote's attack on windmills that he believes to be ferocious giants.
Part Two Although the two parts are now normally published as a single work, Don Quixote, Part Two was a sequel published ten years after the original novel. Don Quixote and Sancho are now assumed to be famous throughout the land because of the adventures recounted in Part One. While Part One was mostly farcical, the second half is more serious and philosophical about the theme of deception. Don Quixote's imaginings are made the butt of outrageously cruel practical jokes carried out by wealthy patrons. Even Sancho is unintentionally forced to deceive him at one point. Trapped into finding Dulcinea, Sancho brings back three dirty and ragged peasant girls, and tells Quixote that they are Dulcinea and her ladies-in-waiting. When Don Quixote only sees the peasant girls, Sancho pretends that Quixote suffers from a cruel spell which does not permit him to see the truth. Sancho eventually gets his imaginary island governorship and unexpectedly proves to be wise and practical; though this, too, ends in disaster.
Conclusion The cruel practical jokes eventually lead Don Quixote to a great melancholy. The novel ends with Don Quixote regaining his full sanity, and renouncing all chivalry. But, the melancholy remains, and grows worse. Sancho tries to restore his faith, but his attempt to resurrect Alonso's alter-ego fails, and Alonso Quixano dies, sane and broken.
I am amazed that those who doctor coins with malice are so unprofessional that their work is detectable. Perhaps there are some whose work escapes detection. The amount of money invested in rare coins seems rather significant, and the investors seem fairly unsophisticated (no insult intended). Clearly, investors are strongly motivated to be safe, hence the third and forth party grading services. I disagree with Adrian, however, that the struggle to minimize doctoring is Quixotic. The population of coins representing real opportunity to coin doctors is relatively small. PCGS is, in my mind, on the right path to protecting that population with the establishment of a photographic archive containing very detailed surface scans of those coins. For important coins, this archive should be supplemented by all other extant images of the coin, along with known provenance. The archive should be easily viewable by the public. As an information systems researcher, I can assure that the cost of creating and maintaining this archive would be nominal using extant cloud services. In this way, PCGS could become the best champion of the hobby, a critical and enduring resource who would eventually map the entire rare coin genome.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Here's a link to NCS's website showing coins they have conserved/cleaned/preserved/doctored/: >>
Many of those were perfectly fine original coins which were dipped/stripped in pursuit of a higher grade. That is what TDN has a problem with, as do I.
Removing PVC and other comtaminants (but not orignal toning) or conserving fire-damaged coins is another matter, which I don't have a problem with.
<< <i>I disagree with Adrian, however, that the struggle to minimize doctoring is Quixotic. >>
I have apparently miscommunicated or you have misunderstood me. I never said the struggle to minimmize doctoring is Quixotic.
What I said was: An impassioned assault is what we need but not just an impassioned assault...remember Don Quixote?
In other words we don't need to attack imaginary enemies.....or always be in the attack mode (while foolishly thinking we are doing good) what we need is an intelligent, effective and impassioned assault.
WOW, it's early in year yet this thread is already vying for "Thread of the Year"! This truly has been one of the best reads on this forum in quite some time. Extremely educational, informative, opinionated in a somewhat respectful way, and has only strayed outside of the posting rules XXX (number yet to be determined) times. Keep it coming as this is my entertainment for the day.
Charter member of CA, Coinaholics Anonymous-6/7/2003 Kewpie Doll award-10/29/2007 Successful BST transactions with Coinboy and Wondercoin.
<< <i>"There are a thousand roads up the mountain".
And there are speeding trucks hurtling down most of them. >>
No, just speed-bumps and the occasional detour. And sometimes the engine, transmission, brakes etc. are not functioning well. These are all within us, as is the Road.
That's some Road you're on, Andy. Time to buy you a soothing dinner. Bring along Aki. He is obviously the Zen master in the family.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Although I agree with much of what Laura said in her column, but was silent at the luncheon might be due to the fact that she (her company) is no longer a member. Someone earlier in this thread alluded that it is better to work within an organization to change it rather than to attack it from without. The PNG is an organization of dealers that is necessary. If that entity is infected with members who promote and accept "doctoring", than it is necessary that they exorcise themselves from this "evil", which I do see as undermining our hobby and love. A market still exists that accepts less than perfect coins. I say let the coins stay as they are so us 'hoi poloi' can own some of the history that these coins represent. It's awfully tempting to "doctor" to maximize profits, but as others have said, "It's fraudulent". There is a market for the "rejects".
I am a proud member of the PNG and was present at the meeting.
The PNG has bylaws that prohibit fraud. Coin doctoring falls under fraud.
If anyone has been defrauded by a PNG member, please contact the PNG executive director, Robert Brueggeman, and he will begin the proceedings to get you made whole. In addition, if a member has more than casual complaints against him/her, then the board is certainly made aware of the situation.
The PNG has expelled members.
The PNG remains the premier professional numismatic organization!!
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>I was at the meeting and am not sure anyone here really knows what they are talking about. PCGS was outbid several years ago by NGC to be the grading service of choice. At that point, David Hall resigned from the organization. I don't think that it had anything to do with coin doctoring.
The PNG cannot do anything about coin doctors unless someone registers a complaint against one. Perhaps NGC should do this if they are truly having problems with doctors. As they are PNG members. Naming names in that situation would be very beneficial. Unfortunately the PNG's doctoring definition was thrown out as it really meant NOTHING. It's impossible to completely define doctoring and the vague language that was reinstituted was more far-reaching anyway.
If we're going to continue to complain about the PNG, someone should just file a complaint with the PNG and it can be dealt with. Until then, the ranting and complaining is useless. >>
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>How much money does PCGS or NGC bid for the title of the "official grading service" of the PNG?
Maybe both companies need to bid $ 0.00 when the next contract comes up. If the PNG starts feeling it in the pocket book maybe they will take a stand against the "coin doctors". The same could be said about bidding on the ANA title of the "official grading service" if the ANA will not address the issue.
Just a thought. >>
>>
So the ''official grading service'' title of PNG is bought?!.....Not earned?! Why doesn't PNG simply select the BEST grading service to be their 'official grading service. They are professional numismatists who surely can vote for a premier grading service to represent that title from PNG.
Tell me it ain't so that the title is 'paid for or bid on'.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
In numismatic terms, cleaning is not the same as conserving. And no, NCS does not 'clean' coins - not in the way that I consider a 'cleaned' coin to be defined.
Comments
<< <i>wasn't NGC somehow connected to NCS, the service that resores coins? >>
NCS neither resores, or restores, coins. They will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. They will not laser coins, build up missing parts, add detail to worn bits, etc. The implication is absurd.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
Is Taxay still alive?
DT
DT Followup
<< <i>wasn't NGC somehow connected to NCS, the service that resores coins? >>
JCMhouston said:
<< <i>NCS neither resores, or restores, coins. They will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. They will not laser coins, build up missing parts, add detail to worn bits, etc. The implication is absurd. >>
I apologize for misspelling the word 'restores'. I apologize for attempting to use the word restore. My implication that NCS restores coins was indeed absurd.
What I should have said is "wasn't NGC somehow connected to NCS, the service that CLEANS coins? To me, I thought I was being generous to NCS (a company that I have no problems with) by using the word 'restore' but if you want to refer to what they do as removing contaminants, which is the same as cleaning, be my guest. From now on, I will try to remember that NCS isn't the company that restores coins, it's the company that CLEANS them. Thank you for correcting me and I am shocked that I was so absurd as to use "restores" instead of "CLEANS". I sit corrected.
Coin Doctoring = bad.
The distinction is a mile wide and an inch deep.
<< <i>NCS = good. Coin Doctoring = bad. The distinction is a mile wide and an inch deep. >>
Thank you for joining us. Interestingly enough, NCS was not widely heralded as good when it was started. There are still quite a number of people that do not appreciate what they do. I do, though appreciate what they do.....most of the time.
Now, as to "coin doctoring", I invite you to a thread which I will start to explore just what bad coin doctoring is, by definition. In other words, what is (bad) coin doctoring?
<< <i>
Now, as to "coin doctoring", I invite you to a thread which I will start to explore just what bad coin doctoring is, by definition. In other words, what is (bad) coin doctoring? >>
That should be easy enough; anything that adds, removes, or moves metal or looks
like metal is bad. Most other things are more likely to be opinion.
...Great thread by the by. Very interesting.
<< <i>Once again, if not a member, why does Legend offer PNG among its "Numismatics References" on the About Legend webpage? >>
That page apparently needs updating. It lists NGC's address as Parsippany NJ. I don't think they've been in NJ for years. I guess someone should mention this to Laura so that they can update that page.
I don't see how the study and appreciation of coins would be a problem.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Bill - The biggest group of numismatic abortions I have seen have been Heraldic Eagle Bust $s in AU. Fully 90% of the ones I've seen imo were either cleaned, bleached, dipped and stripped, AT'd with a bluish gunmetal grey tint, and / or net graded. Very few of them were original, and I've seen four in the last eight years that were nice enough to be in my collection.
Please do us all a favor and start a thread showing the differences between the 4 that were original and the many that weren't. Also, please explain why you deem the four to be original and the others to not be. If you could tell us how you know they were cleaned in the manner that you say they were, that would be good. It would be very educational. >>
1) Can't be done. I've seen the four original coins in eight years of looking at AU coins of the series. One I bought at the end of last year and I put its image here. One was in the Heritage Signature Sale of last June (a 1799 in AU 55) on which I was the underbidder. The two others were seen @ Long Beach between four and five years ago in dealer cases. Said dealers were not large players and did not have websites.
2) Except for the most hideous examples of the series, you need to see the coins in person to really get a feel for what I am discussing. The coin I have has mint luster underneath its original skin. If you really want to see it, rather than a hint of it, you must hold the coin in hand and tilt it.
3) Most cleaning jobs are easy to spot. The coin is too white for a coin over 200 years old. You'll also be able to spot the telltale parallel hairline scratches all going in the same direction. Most silver coins will get bagged for this, but many Bust $s with this affliction get slabbed.
4) You know there is a problem with a coin where there is only a minimal amount of wear on its highpoints - conditionwise, it's a slider - except it's in an AU 50 holder.
5) A greyish tinge on 200 year old circulated silver coins is not unusual. But after you see a number of them, you can distinguish what comes from a coin being that age, versus one that has been cleaned or played-with and then retoned.
Ask anyone who has looked at more than 100 of these in the AU grade, like I have, and you'll get a similar story.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Anaconda - NCS is not one of my favorites, but to suggest that they CLEAN coins in numismatic terms is absurd. >>
You're going to have to fight this one out with JCMhouston who said:
<< NCS neither resores, or restores, coins. They will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. They will not laser coins, build up missing parts, add detail to worn bits, etc. The implication is absurd. >>
"Removing contaminants" is certainly "cleaning".
Me? I liked "restored"
Ya'll fight it out and let me know how I can make you both happy. It is my only goal in life.
I prefer "conserved". But usually you have to clean a coin to properly conserve it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Me? I liked "restored"
I prefer "conserved". But usually you have to clean a coin to properly conserve it. >>
I agree... restored implies that the coin was restored to like new condition and conserved implies that the coin was stopped from future decay.
Bravery has little to do with it. For me, absurdity is second nature.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Another brave soul, willing to be "absurd" in front of TDN.
Bravery has little to do with it. For me, absurdity is second nature. >>
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Another brave soul, willing to be "absurd" in front of TDN.
Bravery has little to do with it. For me, absurdity is second nature. >>
he wants bacon... bacon bacon bacon
<< <i>Jessup, you sound like you're still striving for enlightenment even though you are further along than many of us. One thing to consider however: I don't think Buddhism and coins are compatible.
Is Taxay still alive?
DT
DT Followup >>
Attachment, while always a problem for those of us living in the material world, will ever be a test of of our acceptance of the limits of our humanity. As a Catholic priest and mentor once told me "Every occasion of sin is also an occasion of Grace".
Easier to say it than to live it.
Perhaps a reading of Rilke's "The Man Watching" would enlighten....
Taxay? Aren't we all a little bit Elvis?
Interesting......how just exactly did that come up?
That's the most absurd thing I've read in this thread...
edited to add: sometimes their conservation is needed, but they are definitely cleaning some coins...
...Like I said...
<< <i>TDN, to say that NCS doesn't clean coins is to say the Pope isn't Catholic.
That's the most absurd thing I've read in this thread... >>
I think TDN is remembering when he was 12, before he owned all the coins in the world worth over a million dollars, when "Buddy" at the local coin house told him "Don't never clean yuh cones." And TDN said, "no sir, I promise to never clean my coins....promise..."... and he has stuck with that, never letting anyone clean his coins. Conserve and warsh but never clean.
<< <i>Pretty damn sad when the only person in the room with any balls is a woman. >>
AMEN to that!
<< <i>
<< <i>Until then, the ranting and complaining is useless. >>
Not necessarily. Remember what P. T. Barnum said:
Please spell my name right.
There's a sucker born every minute.
Some people make careers out of ranting and raving.....they appeal to weak people - who are not rare - who want to associate with who they percieve as strong people. >>
Anaconda - I fully agree on that last sentence!
"Doctoring" may be hard to define at the edges, but Laura's impassioned assault is what this hobby needs.
Clean up the subtleties after the battle.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
ColJessup- I love the way you weave pop culture into your diatribes. Well done. Talking Heads and The Who lines in the same post.............. instant classic.
Adrian- love your tilt and you ain't to shabby with the keystoke either................enlightning and provocative. Excactly what this board needed imo.....................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Aren't there more blue copper patterns now than pre-NCS??
<< <i>1. People leading the charge may find the intensity of the moment reason to be absolutist in the way they look at the cause.
2. "Doctoring" may be hard to define at the edges, but Laura's impassioned assault is what this hobby needs.
3. Clean up the subtleties after the battle. >>
My response:
1. Yes, but being absolutist, while it appeals to the "saved" (those that agree with you) also turns many people off who you could have "reached". I see Rush Limbaugh as a Laura Sperber immitator.....and he didn't get a Republican elected in 2009 even though most considered him "the spokesman" for the Republicans.
2. Doctoring is indeed hard to define, and maybe not at the edges....maybe (and forgive the comparison) it's like pornography.....we can't define it but we know it when we see it. An impassioned assault is what we need but not just an impassioned assault...remember Don Quixote? I'll insert the story below. It's actually pretty funny and please don't take my analogy to extremes. All I am trying to say is yes, impassioned assault but one with a well thought out strategy; one that has as its objective the reduction of coin doctoring not just the venting of steam, although that is probably good too! (And.......always remember the most important thing....which is to remember the most important thing!)
3. Sure, I'll go along with that......we can always refine what we define as unacceptable coin doctoring.......and more importantly, don't give up the goal just because things are not going your way right now......AND don't always think you're in a battle with everyone.....remember, not everyone who changes the appearance of coins cares nothing about the hobby or the profession.....or the coins.....maybe they're just misguided according to your standards.
Don Quixote de la Mancha and Sancho Panza, 1863, by Gustave Doré
Plot summary
In the course of their travels, the protagonists meet innkeepers, prostitutes, goatherds, soldiers, priests, escaped convicts, and scorned lovers. These encounters are magnified by Don Quixote’s imagination into chivalrous quests. Don Quixote’s tendency to intervene violently in matters which do not concern him, and his habit of not paying his debts, result in many privations, injuries, and humiliations (with Sancho often getting the worst of it). Finally, Don Quixote is persuaded to return to his home village. The author hints that there was a third quest, but says that records of it have been lost.
First quest
He decides to go out as a knight-errant in search of adventure. He dons an old suit of armor, renames himself "Don Quixote de la Mancha," and names his skinny horse "Rocinante". He designates a neighboring farm girl, Aldonza Lorenzo, as his lady love, renaming her Dulcinea del Toboso, while she knows nothing about this.
He sets out in the early morning and ends up at an inn, which he believes to be a castle. He asks the innkeeper, who he thinks to be the lord of the castle, to dub him a knight. He spends the night holding vigil over his armor, where he becomes involved in a fight with muleteers who try to remove his armor from the horse trough so that they can water their mules. The innkeeper then "dubs" him a knight, and sends him on his way. He frees a young boy who is tied to a tree by his master, because the boy had the audacity to ask his master for the wages the boy had earned but had not yet been paid (who is promptly beaten as soon as Quixote leaves). Don Quixote has a run-in with traders from Toledo, who "insult" the imaginary Dulcinea, one of whom severely beats Don Quixote and leaves him on the side of the road. Don Quixote is found and returned to his home by a neighboring peasant, Pedro Crespo.[2]
Second quest
Don Quixote plots an escape. Meanwhile, his niece, the housekeeper, the parish curate, and the local barber secretly burn most of the books of chivalry, and seal up his library pretending that a magician has carried it off. Don Quixote approaches another neighbor, Sancho Panza, and asks him to be his squire, promising him governorship of an island. The dull-witted Sancho agrees, and the pair sneak off in the early dawn. It is here that their series of famous adventures begin, starting with Don Quixote's attack on windmills that he believes to be ferocious giants.
Part Two
Although the two parts are now normally published as a single work, Don Quixote, Part Two was a sequel published ten years after the original novel. Don Quixote and Sancho are now assumed to be famous throughout the land because of the adventures recounted in Part One. While Part One was mostly farcical, the second half is more serious and philosophical about the theme of deception. Don Quixote's imaginings are made the butt of outrageously cruel practical jokes carried out by wealthy patrons. Even Sancho is unintentionally forced to deceive him at one point. Trapped into finding Dulcinea, Sancho brings back three dirty and ragged peasant girls, and tells Quixote that they are Dulcinea and her ladies-in-waiting. When Don Quixote only sees the peasant girls, Sancho pretends that Quixote suffers from a cruel spell which does not permit him to see the truth. Sancho eventually gets his imaginary island governorship and unexpectedly proves to be wise and practical; though this, too, ends in disaster.
Conclusion
The cruel practical jokes eventually lead Don Quixote to a great melancholy. The novel ends with Don Quixote regaining his full sanity, and renouncing all chivalry. But, the melancholy remains, and grows worse. Sancho tries to restore his faith, but his attempt to resurrect Alonso's alter-ego fails, and Alonso Quixano dies, sane and broken.
<< <i>Now we're going to have to change this thread topic to read "Legend Hot Topics and Catholics".
Born Jewish, but as a Confucian once said "There are a thousand roads up the mountain".
And there are speeding trucks hurtling down most of them.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I agree with PQ Peace, way to go Laura!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Here's a link to NCS's website showing coins they have conserved/cleaned/preserved/doctored/:
>>
Many of those were perfectly fine original coins which were dipped/stripped in pursuit of a higher grade. That is what TDN has a problem with, as do I.
Removing PVC and other comtaminants (but not orignal toning) or conserving fire-damaged coins is another matter, which I don't have a problem with.
<< <i>I disagree with Adrian, however, that the struggle to minimize doctoring is Quixotic. >>
I have apparently miscommunicated or you have misunderstood me. I never said the struggle to minimmize doctoring is Quixotic.
What I said was: An impassioned assault is what we need but not just an impassioned assault...remember Don Quixote?
In other words we don't need to attack imaginary enemies.....or always be in the attack mode (while foolishly thinking we are doing good) what we need is an intelligent, effective and impassioned assault.
PCGS, NGC and CAC are, in their own very different ways, doing exactly that. And nobody can doubt that Laura is, to some extent, behind it all.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Kewpie Doll award-10/29/2007
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<< <i>"There are a thousand roads up the mountain".
And there are speeding trucks hurtling down most of them. >>
No, just speed-bumps and the occasional detour. And sometimes the engine, transmission, brakes etc. are not functioning well. These are all within us, as is the Road.
That's some Road you're on, Andy. Time to buy you a soothing dinner. Bring along Aki. He is obviously the Zen master in the family.
The PNG has bylaws that prohibit fraud. Coin doctoring falls under fraud.
If anyone has been defrauded by a PNG member, please contact the PNG executive director, Robert Brueggeman, and he will begin the proceedings to get you made whole. In addition, if a member has more than casual complaints against him/her, then the board is certainly made aware of the situation.
The PNG has expelled members.
The PNG remains the premier professional numismatic organization!!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>I was at the meeting and am not sure anyone here really knows what they are talking about. PCGS was outbid several years ago by NGC to be the grading service of choice. At that point, David Hall resigned from the organization. I don't think that it had anything to do with coin doctoring.
The PNG cannot do anything about coin doctors unless someone registers a complaint against one. Perhaps NGC should do this if they are truly having problems with doctors. As they are PNG members. Naming names in that situation would be very beneficial.
Unfortunately the PNG's doctoring definition was thrown out as it really meant NOTHING. It's impossible to completely define doctoring and the vague language that was reinstituted was more far-reaching anyway.
If we're going to continue to complain about the PNG, someone should just file a complaint with the PNG and it can be dealt with. Until then, the ranting and complaining is useless. >>
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>How much money does PCGS or NGC bid for the title of the "official grading service" of the PNG?
Maybe both companies need to bid $ 0.00 when the next contract comes up. If the PNG starts feeling it in the pocket book maybe they will take a stand against the "coin doctors". The same could be said about bidding on the ANA title of the "official grading service" if the ANA will not address the issue.
Just a thought. >>
So the ''official grading service'' title of PNG is bought?!
Tell me it ain't so that the title is 'paid for or bid on'.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>The PNG remains the premier professional numismatic organization!! >>
I totally agree.
When? And for what?
Probably failure to pay dues.