eBay Buyer to Block: harrybond1965... extortionist who plays the system well
airplanenut
Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
In my time on eBay, I've found there to be many wonderful buyers, a few bad apples, and a very select few who are the worst of the worst. This buyer falls into the last category, as he played his hand knowing full well that the eBay system is set up in his favor. To get both sides of the story, I'm just going to post the email exchanges in full. Where needed, my commentary to explain my thoughts is in bold. First, a few points and background:
1- The buyer bought 20 coins for about $10,600 in one order. The coin in question is this one, which closed at $370.55. This is not a coin for which a sheet value exists. The market determines the pricing because it is well above the quality you normally see, and you rarely see them this nice at all. It's a coin where a point in either direction doesn't mean very much.
2- I am fully aware that I had a typo in the listing (that is, after it was pointed out to me). I am not denying in any way that I made a mistake, but you can see that I did my best to fix it. Eventually, everyone makes a mistake, but I've found most people in the world are decent enough to let you fix it and move on.
3- To give away the ending, yes, I gave in to the buyer's demands. This is not because I thought it was right in any way, but because my experience has shown that almost always, a relisted coin sells for a bit less the second time it goes up. With 20 coins in play, and 20 feedbacks, and 20 sets of DSRs he could kill me on, the financial risk was huge (also keep in mind that if he filed a PayPal dispute, they would automatically refund the postage for the full order, which had an actual cost of 11% of the value of the item in question). I was not happy doing this, but as a business, I couldn't take the risk. I stress that I am absolutely pissed that I did this, but from a money standpoint, it was the unfortunately correct call by a long shot to protect myself and my consignor. Read everything and you'll see why he should be blocked.
4- My consignor was in the loop with everything as it was happening and we reached the same conclusion with regards to #3. He saw the guy as a complete jerk the way I did, and together we chalked it up to something you get if you sell enough on eBay. He asked me to post this thread to get the name out there.
5- While the entire transaction was for foreign material, the buyer has also bought/sold US bullion in large amounts and for high dollar figures. If he decides to play more games, there's a good chance it will be for a lot of money, rather than a few bucks.
6- I spoke at length with eBay and PayPal about this buyer. The eBay rep was wonderful, though he couldn't find an explicit rule violation to allow me to prevent a return or at least remove potential feedback. He did point out that he was amazed at how a buyer could be so polite and well spoken, yet such a jerk. Usually those are mutually exclusive. He agreed that my eventual decision to do what financially made sense was probably the best route to take, frustrating as it was. He seemed pretty pissed at the buyer, too. PayPal simply confirmed that he could file a SNAD and cause a whole host of problem, including getting all of his postage refunded. One thing I learned is that even if a buyer says they like something, if they later file an SNAD (as he could for the other 19 items), they always go with the most current feelings, even if they contradict what was previously said.
---------
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your package. But I want to notify you that you misled me on one item. You described this item as MS 65 but in reality I have received MS 64. I believe that you are responsible for this mistake. I will keep the coin but you should refund the full price $370.55 to my paypal account XXXXXXXXXXXX as part of compensation for fault description. Sorry,but if you disagree with this decision, I have to return the full package back to you. Please transfer money within 24 hours, so we can finish this transaction.
Regards
---
Hi,
I'm terribly sorry about that. You are correct, and unfortunately it looks like there was an unintentional typo when I was creating the listing. Please do return the coin and I will refund the full price plus the return postage and this coin's share of the outbound postage.
My address is:
XXXXXXXXX
Again, I'm very sorry for this; it was certainly not done on purpose.
Thanks,
After clicking send, I re-read his message. When I first read it, I couldn't imagine he was really saying he'd return 19 coins that he liked because of one typo. Well, he did, so along came reply number 2, since this was a situation I didn't think should be handled alone
Hi,
It looks like I misread part of your email. I will speak with my consignor and see what he would like done. I will reply as soon as possible.
Thanks,
-----
I believe you, it could be mistyping or something else. But I bought the whole package for $10,000. And now, I really want a discount in the amount of $370.55 on this package or I will return all 20 coins for a full refund. Please speak to your cosigner and let me know the result.
Thank you for understanding of my feelings.
Regards
----
Hi Harry,
First off, I would again like to apologize for the mistake. I do hope that you can see it was unintentional; unfortunately there is an occasional typo in the thousands of listings I put up, and on occasion they slip through the cracks and aren't caught before the auctions go live. As you can see, the photographs include a picture of the slab, which I hope shows that I wasn't trying to hide anything. Additionally, you can see that my feedback certainly indicates that I do everything in my power to be honest and fair.
I spoke with my consignor this morning, and we came up with a couple other possible solutions, and hope you will find at least one satisfactory.
1- You can return the coin in question for a full refund, and we will also provide a $50 refund on top of that for the mistake and to cover its return.
2- We can provide a $150 refund for the coin in question to cover its being MS64 instead of the mis-stated MS65.
Again, I'm certainly not denying my error, and I would like to be fair and fix this fairly. Please let me know your thoughts. On an aside, I will be away and unable to check email from around 6pm ET today until around 9pm ET on Saturday. Should you send an email in that time period, I will respond as soon as possible upon my return.
Thanks,
This message was sent on Friday afternoon; I was away for just over a day
----
Thank you for fast responce. Sorry, but no deal. I will initiate return of all 20 coins through ebay tomorrow after 7Pm (because you will be unavailable until tomorrow 6Pm). In this case you still have plenty of time to reconsider your decision. Refund of $370.55 to my paypal account and we will close the case. I expect your responce no later then tomorrow 7Pm. I am really sorry for all this inconvenience, but I have purchased a bulk of coins and I will keep them all or return them all.
Regards
----
Hi Harry,
I spoke again with my consignor to explain what you have written. He agreed that if you can confirm a full refund on this coin will have you consider the transaction a positive and satisfactory one, then I am authorized to provide the refund. We never want someone to have a coin they don't like, so we just want to be positive that this will right my error.
As I mentioned previously, I'm about to head out, but will be back tomorrow evening. Upon your reply in the positive, I can initiate a payment to you.
Thank you,
My consignor and I realized we weren't going to get anywhere trying to be fair. He had the upper hand and knew it. This email was basically a way to at least get him to say in writing that I'd get the positive feedback out of this to keep my numbers up (I worded it carefully so as not to be flagged by eBay for demanding feedback, which is against the rules)
----
Yes, I confirm, if I will get the full refund for this coin, I will keep all 20 coins and will leave a positive feedback. I want myself this transaction to be nice and smooth.Please initiate the transfer of money no later then 12/18/10 9:00Pm to my paypal account XXXXXXXX.
Thank you for understanding.
----
You should now have the refund in your account.
And a spot at the top of my blocked bidder list.
-----
Thank you very much for your help and understanding.
Regards
1- The buyer bought 20 coins for about $10,600 in one order. The coin in question is this one, which closed at $370.55. This is not a coin for which a sheet value exists. The market determines the pricing because it is well above the quality you normally see, and you rarely see them this nice at all. It's a coin where a point in either direction doesn't mean very much.
2- I am fully aware that I had a typo in the listing (that is, after it was pointed out to me). I am not denying in any way that I made a mistake, but you can see that I did my best to fix it. Eventually, everyone makes a mistake, but I've found most people in the world are decent enough to let you fix it and move on.
3- To give away the ending, yes, I gave in to the buyer's demands. This is not because I thought it was right in any way, but because my experience has shown that almost always, a relisted coin sells for a bit less the second time it goes up. With 20 coins in play, and 20 feedbacks, and 20 sets of DSRs he could kill me on, the financial risk was huge (also keep in mind that if he filed a PayPal dispute, they would automatically refund the postage for the full order, which had an actual cost of 11% of the value of the item in question). I was not happy doing this, but as a business, I couldn't take the risk. I stress that I am absolutely pissed that I did this, but from a money standpoint, it was the unfortunately correct call by a long shot to protect myself and my consignor. Read everything and you'll see why he should be blocked.
4- My consignor was in the loop with everything as it was happening and we reached the same conclusion with regards to #3. He saw the guy as a complete jerk the way I did, and together we chalked it up to something you get if you sell enough on eBay. He asked me to post this thread to get the name out there.
5- While the entire transaction was for foreign material, the buyer has also bought/sold US bullion in large amounts and for high dollar figures. If he decides to play more games, there's a good chance it will be for a lot of money, rather than a few bucks.
6- I spoke at length with eBay and PayPal about this buyer. The eBay rep was wonderful, though he couldn't find an explicit rule violation to allow me to prevent a return or at least remove potential feedback. He did point out that he was amazed at how a buyer could be so polite and well spoken, yet such a jerk. Usually those are mutually exclusive. He agreed that my eventual decision to do what financially made sense was probably the best route to take, frustrating as it was. He seemed pretty pissed at the buyer, too. PayPal simply confirmed that he could file a SNAD and cause a whole host of problem, including getting all of his postage refunded. One thing I learned is that even if a buyer says they like something, if they later file an SNAD (as he could for the other 19 items), they always go with the most current feelings, even if they contradict what was previously said.
---------
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your package. But I want to notify you that you misled me on one item. You described this item as MS 65 but in reality I have received MS 64. I believe that you are responsible for this mistake. I will keep the coin but you should refund the full price $370.55 to my paypal account XXXXXXXXXXXX as part of compensation for fault description. Sorry,but if you disagree with this decision, I have to return the full package back to you. Please transfer money within 24 hours, so we can finish this transaction.
Regards
---
Hi,
I'm terribly sorry about that. You are correct, and unfortunately it looks like there was an unintentional typo when I was creating the listing. Please do return the coin and I will refund the full price plus the return postage and this coin's share of the outbound postage.
My address is:
XXXXXXXXX
Again, I'm very sorry for this; it was certainly not done on purpose.
Thanks,
After clicking send, I re-read his message. When I first read it, I couldn't imagine he was really saying he'd return 19 coins that he liked because of one typo. Well, he did, so along came reply number 2, since this was a situation I didn't think should be handled alone
Hi,
It looks like I misread part of your email. I will speak with my consignor and see what he would like done. I will reply as soon as possible.
Thanks,
-----
I believe you, it could be mistyping or something else. But I bought the whole package for $10,000. And now, I really want a discount in the amount of $370.55 on this package or I will return all 20 coins for a full refund. Please speak to your cosigner and let me know the result.
Thank you for understanding of my feelings.
Regards
----
Hi Harry,
First off, I would again like to apologize for the mistake. I do hope that you can see it was unintentional; unfortunately there is an occasional typo in the thousands of listings I put up, and on occasion they slip through the cracks and aren't caught before the auctions go live. As you can see, the photographs include a picture of the slab, which I hope shows that I wasn't trying to hide anything. Additionally, you can see that my feedback certainly indicates that I do everything in my power to be honest and fair.
I spoke with my consignor this morning, and we came up with a couple other possible solutions, and hope you will find at least one satisfactory.
1- You can return the coin in question for a full refund, and we will also provide a $50 refund on top of that for the mistake and to cover its return.
2- We can provide a $150 refund for the coin in question to cover its being MS64 instead of the mis-stated MS65.
Again, I'm certainly not denying my error, and I would like to be fair and fix this fairly. Please let me know your thoughts. On an aside, I will be away and unable to check email from around 6pm ET today until around 9pm ET on Saturday. Should you send an email in that time period, I will respond as soon as possible upon my return.
Thanks,
This message was sent on Friday afternoon; I was away for just over a day
----
Thank you for fast responce. Sorry, but no deal. I will initiate return of all 20 coins through ebay tomorrow after 7Pm (because you will be unavailable until tomorrow 6Pm). In this case you still have plenty of time to reconsider your decision. Refund of $370.55 to my paypal account and we will close the case. I expect your responce no later then tomorrow 7Pm. I am really sorry for all this inconvenience, but I have purchased a bulk of coins and I will keep them all or return them all.
Regards
----
Hi Harry,
I spoke again with my consignor to explain what you have written. He agreed that if you can confirm a full refund on this coin will have you consider the transaction a positive and satisfactory one, then I am authorized to provide the refund. We never want someone to have a coin they don't like, so we just want to be positive that this will right my error.
As I mentioned previously, I'm about to head out, but will be back tomorrow evening. Upon your reply in the positive, I can initiate a payment to you.
Thank you,
My consignor and I realized we weren't going to get anywhere trying to be fair. He had the upper hand and knew it. This email was basically a way to at least get him to say in writing that I'd get the positive feedback out of this to keep my numbers up (I worded it carefully so as not to be flagged by eBay for demanding feedback, which is against the rules)
----
Yes, I confirm, if I will get the full refund for this coin, I will keep all 20 coins and will leave a positive feedback. I want myself this transaction to be nice and smooth.Please initiate the transfer of money no later then 12/18/10 9:00Pm to my paypal account XXXXXXXX.
Thank you for understanding.
----
You should now have the refund in your account.
And a spot at the top of my blocked bidder list.
-----
Thank you very much for your help and understanding.
Regards
JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
0
Comments
I hope he is a seller and many people do this same thing to him.
his listings
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>My first reaction was that you should have refunded him all the money and taken the coins back. You may lose some on the resales, but the ability to avoid problems might be more valuable than the few dollars retained on the existing sales. >>
That was my first reaction, but I figured he was more likely to not screw with my feedback with the refund. If he had one or two items, I could have taken whatever blow he wanted to send. With 20, though, he could cost me a fortune (much more than just the losses in resales) with the feedback. I guess it was going with my gut to do damage control when there's a bull in a china shop.
He's a jerk alright. But I hope he's already left positive feedback for you and the transaction is completely closed. Otherwise some upset member on this board will end up sending him a pissy response letting him know what a jerk he is ....... then guess what, you'll end up getting a negative from him. If he hasn't left positive on all 20, then I suggest you edit your thread to be blank.
<< <i>That was my first reaction, but I figured he was more likely to not screw with my feedback with the refund. If he had one or two items, I could have taken whatever blow he wanted to send. With 20, though, he could cost me a fortune (much more than just the losses in resales) with the feedback. I guess it was going with my gut to do damage control when there's a bull in a china shop. >>
Since all the auctions ended on the same day, doesn't eBay limit one feedback per day per buyer? I realize he could have left 20 neg's, but only one would have showed up in your DSR and positive percentage calculations? Or am I wrong?
<< <i><< My first reaction was that you should have refunded him all the money and taken the coins back. You may lose some on the resales, but the ability to avoid problems might be more valuable than the few dollars retained on the existing sales. >>
That was my first reaction, but I figured he was more likely to not screw with my feedback with the refund. If he had one or two items, I could have taken whatever blow he wanted to send. With 20, though, he could cost me a fortune (much more than just the losses in resales) with the feedback. I guess it was going with my gut to do damage control when there's a bull in a china shop. >>
Agreed that the seller was an asshead for trying to get the coin for free. Even if he would have left you 20 NEGS, multiple feedback from the same buyer actually only counts as 1, correct?
I see three things:
1. He will possibly list this item himself.
2. He possibly saw the description error and decided to take advantage of it instead of alerting it to you beforehand.
3. He is not at all expecting his scam to be reported to hundreds of potential buyers on these boards.
I don't remember ever blocking anyone on Ebay, but this may be a first.
<< <i>He's a jerk alright. But I hope he's already left positive feedback for you and the transaction is completely closed. Otherwise some upset member on this board will end up sending him a pissy response letting him know what a jerk he is ....... then guess what, you'll end up getting a negative from him. If he hasn't left positive on all 20, then I suggest you edit your thread to be blank. >>
I was able to confirm all positives/5's down the board.
<< <i>I would have allowed him to return all the coins. Had he left negative feedback, your DSR's are high enough that this one would not have brought it down to a point you would have lost your 20% fee rebate. He would not have received a refund of his shipping fees for his return of the package. You would have won any dispute with PayPal when you held back the outgoing shipping fee, as per your auction it says you will. >>
I did the math, and he had more than enough in his arsenal. PayPal specifically told me he'd get the shipping back.
<< <i>I hope the loss will not be mostly burdened by you consignor, while shady it was your actions that left your auctions vulnerable and people pay for a smooth auction when they use a third party. >>
I'm not going to go into specifics, but no, this wasn't something that I made my consignor eat. The only reason I brought him into the discussion in this case (rather than just taking my own loss and moving on) was because of the potentially huge return, which would affect my consignor. Mistakes happen to everyone, and when they happen to me, I deal with them. I like to think that most people are decent, and just as I'm happy to help someone out if they goof up, I'd like to think the same of others. Not this guy.
If he did not return the coin you refunded the cost of , then he is a thief and an extortionist ,
and I am sorry to hear that buyers such as this even exist
I would have taken the whole lot back regardless of cost. I hate extortionists.
His story about buying as a group is BS.... obviously it is a single coin and a single auction.
I think I would have allowed him to return the entire shipment. Of course, you would have to do some battle over the negatives he may give you, but I think you would have won out in the end. Just depends on what battles one wants to persue.
<< <i>I blocked him. I think you made a mistake by not calling his bluff though. It smelled like a stone cold bluff to me. >>
Bluffs are harder to call when they're worth a few thousand dollars. I'm not saying I made the decision I wanted to make, rather, the decision I think was the best given the circumstances. I'm plenty pissed about giving in, but eBay's system is set up to let this happen.
Hopefully the feedback here will eventually cost this guy $370. The buyer has 100% feedback. Would not be too difficult to mess with that as a buyer.
roadrunner
BLOCKED
<< <i>Did airplane nut cave to a blackmailer, or did he make the right business call. I say since it wasn't his coins and he kept the consignor in the loop all the way and made a mutually agreed upon business decision with the consignor then airplanenut did the right business move. Sure the first emotional decision is " this eaby customer can't do this, it is extortion, I won't sell him anything then, I will not reward that scoundrel" but often the ebay game is a carefully thought out chessgame and even though the ebay customer was probably bluffing on it being a huge sale and the potentiial loss of a huge sale could be worth $300+ to keep it going he played his hand. Remember airplanenut tested the water with an offer to refund about half that amount and was turned down. So in my estimation Airplanenut did good for his client and himself in the end. And I hope the ebay customer eventually learns of all the loss in business that has resulted from his wussy manuever. >>
Agreed, The OP did well by his customer and made a good business decision.
<< <i>
<< <i>My first reaction was that you should have refunded him all the money and taken the coins back. You may lose some on the resales, but the ability to avoid problems might be more valuable than the few dollars retained on the existing sales. >>
That was my first reaction, but I figured he was more likely to not screw with my feedback with the refund. If he had one or two items, I could have taken whatever blow he wanted to send. With 20, though, he could cost me a fortune (much more than just the losses in resales) with the feedback. I guess it was going with my gut to do damage control when there's a bull in a china shop. >>
If he leaves negative feedback in spite of returning the coins can't the FB removed since the transaction was never completed?
Just curious, how much did you and your consignor make off these coins (net)? I'm assuming way more than the cost of the refund.
FWIW, your offers at a resolution were MORE THAN FAIR.
Why didn't he contact you about the discrepancy? Why would he not ask for clarity?
Because he truly is someone looking for opportunities to game the system, that's why.
He may have been civil and reasonable in his communications, but this is unprofessional, AND unethical. Integrity is a huge part of the transactions we conduct, be it Ebay or anywhere else. Persons seeking a means of enriching themselves at the expense of others lack these qualities, and deserve to be blocked.
You did the right thing.
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
<< <i>If he leaves negative feedback in spite of returning the coins can't the FB removed since the transaction was never completed? >>
No. I went over every scenario with the eBay rep, and everything ended with him being able to leave whatever feedback he wanted. The feedback system is heavily sided to favor the buyer, but the only people that can be really hurt by bad feedback are sellers. I've had far more straight-forward cases not have feedback removed because of technicalities (a threat of a negative--specifically forbidden--was dismissed because it wasn't sent through the eBay system, even though I could prove it was the buyer through his name/email/email headers)
<< <i>perhaps its not advisable to sell so many items to any single unknown buyer? >>
There's no way to limit something like that, and the fact is, the vast majority of eBay buyers are wonderful to deal with (from those that just pay and you never hear from, to those with whom I've had pleasant email conversations). I've had plenty of hiccups while selling over the years (often slow delivery times to international destinations, something I can't avoid), but it's extremely rare for a buyer to act this way.
There's no way to limit something like that,...
There certainly IS a way to limit that in your buyer requirements, e.g.:
Block buyers who:
•Don't have a PayPal account
•Have received 2 Unpaid item Strike(s) within 12 month(s)
•Have a primary shipping address in countries that I don't ship to
•Have 4 Policy violation report(s) within 6 month(s)
•Have a feedback score equal to or lower than -1
•Have bid on or bought my items in the last 10 days AND (or not AND) have met my limit of 1 who have a feedback score of 5 or lower
Buyer Requirements
Check This > Have bid on or bought my items within the last 10 days and met my limit of (select 1 to 100)
DO NOT Check THIS > Only apply this block to buyers who have a feedback score equal to or lower than (or check it and select 0 to 5)
Gary
Lou
ANA Life-Member
Could he still leave you negative feedback (for exposing him here......maybe.....)?
EAC 6024