<< <i>If I had the mans telephone # I would call him and offer to give him some more money for that coin discovery. After all whats right is right. That way everyone would be happy all along. Imho >>
This was my thought as well - however, in the story it said the man called the store back, and would NOT leave his phone number, which is unfortunate. I would definitely want to try and get in contact with him, and offer him some of the profit. Since this coin was in the 'G/VG' stack, GS Bid is $4500 in G and $11,000 in VG - this is a heck of a windfall. It would warrant a short article in the local paper about a rare coin and the good will effort of the dealer who helped a customer get much more money than he thought he would. This would be good publicity and folks would keep you in mind as a good place to take their valuables to. Just my perspective, naive as it may seem, but I also worked in manufacturing for 25 years AND run my own part time biz. But I have done exactly the same thing when I bought a bulk foreign coin lot and found a rare die variety 20 cent Newfie in it. I sold it for a several hundred dollars, and showed up at the guy's door with $100 and told him the story. He was very happy, and has since refered other folks to me who had stuff to sell.
I want to know what State this coin shop is located.. I have sold 90% to my local B&M on several occasions.. Every single time they have taken my information down to document the transaction..
If the total sold equals over a couple hundred bucks, they take a copy of my I.D..
They claim they are required to do this by law.. If that's not the case. I would like to know...
<< <i> We sorted through the coins first, some junk silver from the 40's-60's and an assortment of some Barbers/Lib Nickels/Buffalo Nickels/Indian Head Cents. Then I looked at his jewelry which was stuff his wife had owned: >>
So how many Barber quarters were in the stuff separated from the "junk" silver?
<< <i>I want to know what State this coin shop is located.. I have sold 90% to my local B&M on several occasions.. Every single time they have taken my information down to document the transaction..
If the total sold equals over a couple hundred bucks, they take a copy of my I.D.. >>
I have seen this procedure in pawn shops, but never in a coin shop here in downstate Illinois.
For those that think Al has soiled some ethical code, shame on you for being so judgmental! You really had to have been there before casting your aspersions on Al's character!
No contact information was given and the fact that the old fellow told Al to give the jewelry to his wife (Al's wife) if he came across it says a lot about how this fellow felt about what he was selling. He did not want to be contacted or was in a position where he could not be contacted. (Calling from a pay phone perhaps?)
Hey, maybe he's a retired Cat Burglar selling the spoils of "just one last job"??
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Amassing. Don't have time to look at them when the customer is there, but once they leave. Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave. If it is a true bulk in bulk out, the coins shouldn't be sorted at all. Dump them in a bucket and sell them bulk. >>
If the old man had had the patience to buy a Red Book himself then he would have been fine.
Per the Barber Qtr mintages, there is approx one 1901 s per every 3,640 Qtrs. Now consider that over 100 yrs later, each 1901 s has had at least 2 to 3 owners. Figure during that time period, if a person holds on to something they considered had value, chances are highly likely that one of those owners would have discovered the rarity of the 1901 s. With that knowledge, lets be liberal and say 1 out of 10 of those strings of 2 to 3 owners and there relatives/friends never ever over 100 yrs checked a price guide. In other words 9 out of 10 1901 s qtrs have been taken out of junk silver piles (conservative estimate I think) ........... that would change the figure of one in 3,640 qts, to one in 36,400 in junk silver piles. Now ...... ask yourself, how many thousands of times are you going to check the date and mm of every junk silver coin thrown in a pile of other coins, while customers are waiting ???????????? Do you realize how many customers walked out the door while you've wasted your time playing the lottery ????????? That's no way to run a business. Most margins on Bullion transactions are very small, it doesn't pay to check every coin in the hopes of finding that one in 36,400 ...... it has to be done when the Dealer has time to do it later, if ever in many cases. In most cases, people have put away junk silver realizing it's silver, or perhaps because the series has changed and they wanted to hold on to something that won't be in circulation much longer ...... in either case, most usually it's nothing but change they had in their pockets, it was all just common dates because that's what they had, people 75 years ago didn't just end up with rarities in there pockets ..... there are written diaries that have been published back then that clearly demonstrate how rare it was to find key dates for those that were actively roll/bag searching. What Dealers now a days have walking thru their doors are the junk coins Grandma held on to ..... vary rare to have a key date mixed in ...... certainly not worth loosing a waiting customer over by checking every date/mm while they wait. Also consider, there are probably more conterfeit 1901 s qtrs than authentic ones ..... if you checked every date/mm and found one, just how certain are you that you can identify that counterfeit, and then just how much are you willing to pay the old man on the spot knowing most are counterfeit ???????? Afterall, isn't it possible he knew it was in there, knew it was a counterfeit he bought 40 yrs ago, figured it had no value, no need to mention it, maybe even let good ole Keets jump for joy .. just to have a chuckle knowing he'd later find out it was counterfeit. I've collected coins for 40 yrs, sometimes intently, other times with large gaps of inactivity. It still amazes me how many counterfiet coins are out their ...... not even considering the modern day Chinese counterfeits. In the coin business, you have days you loose money and days you gain money ....... just the way it is.
If a person has a coin that isn't junk silver, then they for their own protection needs to point it out to the Dealer.
This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit!
<< <i>This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit! >>
<< <i>This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit! >>
>>
Double
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit! >>
Thanks for sharing your story. As a dealer and someone who spent a year "apprenticing" in a retail store, I can appreciate everything you have experienced.
In my experience at a B&M each day was different, yet aspects were routine and the same. In my business where today I do shows versus B&M there is in most cases a difference in expertise of the customer for sure. Thus the situation usually does not come up much in contrast to a retail store where this happens a bit more but it is still rare.
When I was learning the business side in the shop I can recall a couple of occasions where something in a coin group was missed. Especially if you are swamped and have 3 more people waiting to be attended too. Some days you were overwhelmed and others you could work in the back most of the day.
In this day of CTR/AML reporting and all we always got name, address, and phone number information along with a driver's license or some other photo ID documented. So I have all that information and would then be able to call back a seller and offer to send them more $ in a case such as this.
I have also come across things in searching more carefully and not been able to send more money to a seller. The example I am thinking of is a 1950-S/D quarter which was in the 90% tray I discovered. Once it was in the 90% tray after an initial look through, there was no way to trace it back but of course it was not a 4 figure coin either. It slabbed as an XF45 if I recall at PCGS.
I recall buying a cool little 1964 error dime where nearly the whole obverse had been struck though except the area around the date which was bold and clear. I bought it as part of a small collection and really didn't have the resources at my fingertips nor knowledge at that moment to price it. I offered the seller $20 for the coin and stated I would split anything above that amount with her. I actually wound up selling wholesale that dime for $150, a rather neat little sum and I forwarded an additional $55 to the seller just as we had agreed too.
The goodwill I have gotten from making this my policy has been worth it to me. It has helped me get a look at deals and referals which otherwise may not have taken place. A good reputation for fairness and honesty is pretty important in this business as it should be in any business.
I will also be up front and say there was one occasion where the transaction was difficult and time consuming and I got a bonus of a couple hundred dollars on a coin and I didn't make any adjustment. In that case it was a VAM I was aware of on a coin already holdered and not attributed. I wasn't aware of the VAM on that particular coin at the time the transaction took place but spotted it upon closer inspection a couple of days later.
I also recall cherry-picking with an associate a tail bar from one of the largest silver dollar dealers in the country, owning the coin for about 10 minutes at a cost of $485 and selling it for $1,500. In that case I felt my luck and knowledge earned us something that another dealer should be aware of and was acceptable. I split the $ 50/50 with my associate as he had picked it out as a nice coin, and I spotted the VAM when I flipped it over. I can recall the conversation clearly. He was looking through a box of 2x2 Morgans and handed the coin to me, "What do you think of this one."
I look at the obverse and it looks original and maybe a 63, I flip it over and low and behold a tail bar and said, "We own it."
Pointing out the tail bar to him. It was a great way to cover the plane ticket for our flights.
I guess the summation would be you have a general policy that you tend to follow for the most part but there are occasional exceptions along the way.
The offset to the OP's story as a dealer is also something to consider. You do make mistakes buying, the best dealers in the country don't make very many but I suspect if they are honest even the most experienced ones have made a mistake. Once in awhile you need a nice surprise to offset a mistake as well. It could be in the form of a counterfeit you just didn't catch or by accident something that has been stolen. Thankfully that has been far and few between but both have happened despite my best efforts so once in awhile its nice to have an offset along the way as well.
I think that the #1 thing Al might have learned from this post is to keep his mouth shut.
I have myself gone back and paid sellers of bulk coins to me a portion of windfalls - but that is a very personal decision to make. In my mind, not doing so in no way reflects badly on the individual - when it appears that there was an absence of intent to defraud (rip) a seller.
As far as I am concerned, at some point a seller of an item - be it a coin, a car or a marble collection - has to take at least a little personal responsibility for knowing what they are selling. Placing the entire burden on the buyer smacks me as (using a term mis-used earlier) "bleeding heart."
Sadly, the society today has moved sharply towards a complete lack of personal responsibility. It is far, far easier to just be a victim. If excoriating Al for his actions makes you feel a bit better about yourselves, you've fully bought into the "Victocrat" mentality. Congratulations! You've earned your well-deserved place on the ash-heap of losers.
I'm checking in on the "get off your judgemental high horses, all you who think keets is in the wrong" group...
Ya'all need to spend some time on the other side of the table/counter to truly appreciate what it is like... no whining here...just a bit of real life...
How many "super rare" "very old" silver dollars with a pic of Ike on it have we been shown? More than we care to remember... and so many other "silly" moments...
Here is my perspective on things...
If the man had said "I have this 1901-S 25c that I was told might be worth some $...what is it worth?"... then the ethical thing to do is honestly appraise it... authenticate... etc. and then make a fair offer... if keets were to say something like "nah...it is just a common coin for the melt bin" or "well it is worth a little premium...like maybe $50".... now that would be a RIP... not what happened...
If the old man had specifically asked keets to tell him if he had anything of extra value... "would you mind taking some time to check these coins to see if I have anything rare?" ... well, if keets had the time...fine... again...not what happened...
A few years ago I was set up at a busy show... 12 ft. of table space... just me... 4 cases...notebooks (the day before someone had made off with an entire page of 30's Walkers out of one of the books...cost of doing business)... boxes of 2x2's and at least 5 people at my table looking at coins and all wanting my full attention...NOW... and up walks a couple looking kind of sheepish... anyway...the guy says "I have some coins to sell...are you buying?"..."sure", I said..."what've you got?" with a smile... impatient customers glaring at this couple as they had diverted me from them... he reaches into his pocket and pull out a handful of raw naked coins and drops them on one of my cases...coins rolling in all directions...
So I try not to obviously roll my eyes and kindly push the coins back into a pile of sorts... then I ask the couple to give me a moment...so I can wrap up with a few of the folks that had been talking with me before the couple walked up... do what I have to... two of the folks tell me they'll come back when I'm not so busy... anyway...back to the couple...
(More people walikng up to my table to look at my cases... a few folks trying to look past this couple to see... someone says "excuse me" while they attempt to get to one of my notebooks... I remember yesterday and the missing page...shake it off and keep on smiling)... back to the couple... and their humble pile of coins...
First off, I notice they are all dollars...second... there are two Ikes on top...another underneath some Morgans... total of around 12-13 coins... I pick out the Ikes and not knowing an Ike error from a pimple, I hand them back to the man and tell him they are worth $1 ea...smile smile...
(A few of the folks let me know they's like to see something in one of my cases...I motion that I'll be right with them) I ask the man if there is anything special or are these common circs...he does not know what I mean...I explain... he says "oh yeah...they are just common circs"... I count them and multiply by $11 (the going rate at the time)... added a few bucks to round it off...he says "fine" and off they go after i pay them...
I toss the coins into a tray and turn to help the patiently waiting (what's left of them, anyway) customers...
A few hours later I get a chance to look over the Morgans... a 81-CC... an AU 84-S and an 8TF 78 along with otherwise common circs... I actually looked around the show to see if I could find the couple...they were long gone...
You see...if the man had said... I have this 81-CC Morgan and this 84-S and etc"... then I would have graded them and made an appropriate offer... not what happened...
I have watched a dealer once at a busy show...take an entire 4 hours to go patiently thru a large bag full of 2x2'd coins brought in by a man and his mother... no one could get near this dealers table all that time...the guy insisted that each coin be appraised individually and this dealer was silly enough to waste his show doing this... the guy had approached me first and I declined as I was to busy...
Anyway, after the 4 hours and the dealer giving his offer on the lot weith each coin itemized... the guy decides he doesn't want to sell for that...and thinks the coins are worth more than the offer (and I know that this dealer is one of the fairer dealers setting up at shows in my area)... so this dealer has wasted an entire show for nothing...
That's enough ...
Know what you have...or take the appropriate due diligence to learn... or pay the consequences... it is really that simple...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
I've read the story and the comments, I think the customer didn't get a "fair deal" and that's wrong. You can't get far in business without respecting your customer on both the buy and sell side of the transaction.
Good for you in being honest with your boss, but don't you feel bad for the guy who brought the coin in.
<< <i>I've read the story and the comments, I think the customer didn't get a "fair deal" and that's wrong. You can't get far in business without respecting your customer on both the buy and sell side of the transaction.
Good for you in being honest with your boss, but don't you feel bad for the guy who brought the coin in. >>
Apparently the comments that you read didn't sink in.
Putting the arguing aside for a moment, Id like to say I think anytime a dealer is buying anything they dont have the time to look at while the seller is there, they should take down contact info. Or not buy.
I dont think Keets did anything wrong here, if anyone did, its his boss. He is the owner of this shop and has a responsibility to pay fair and honest prices.
Also, its the sellers responsibility to know what he is selling. Id like to think that if Keets did view all the coins closely, he would have educated the seller as to what he had. From what Ive read from Keets, and our brief convs via pm's, I can say with some confidence that Keets is a stand up guy.
Cherry picking is not the same as a rip. Period. You can say otherwise, but its part of the game. Everyone knows it, and its perfectly fine. Thats NOT what happened here though. And cherry picking has nothing to do with this thread or situation. Using that argument here only adds fuel to the fire that cherry picking is wrong. Its not, nor is what happened to Keets.
All of this is just my personal opinion. Take it as you will.
Question though for Keets, if the guy came back in with more to sell, would you tell him what he sold you and would you cut him in?
Also, what do you think your boss would do if he came back in?
<< <i>I think that the #1 thing Al might have learned from this post is to keep his mouth shut.
>>
I imagine Keets knew exactly where this was headed.
To my mind there isn't so huge a distinction between buying bulk coins over the counter (or anywhere else) and looking at coins in circulation. If I open a roll of pennies from the bank and find a '69-S DDO I will not be showing up at the bank the next day to cut them a check for the full wholesale value of the coin. I'm not even going to offer a finder's fee. I might buy the tellers a box of chocolate at Christmas time. Even when I find good coins in change my family provides I'll usually just give them about half what it's worth. They were just going to spend it anyway. Thjey did nothing special to acquire it or eat only at restaurants that give the best change.
It's the same way when someone brings bulk coin into a shop. The only rea- son they were saved is they thought they were worth more than face. They are unusual coins (like Ikes) or silver or maybe just nickels from the 1940's or buffalos with no dates. Is a dealer expected to acid date the buffalos just to be certain there's no '16/ '16 before paying?
The dealer has a moral responsibility to pay a fair price and that's it. It is not reasonable to expect him to hunt through tons of junk looking for a reason to pay a lot more. If a seller presents stuff as junk, and it appears to be junk then that's the basis on which the price will be set if the dealer wants to stay in business.
I think a point in my earlier post was missed. Barber quarters in mixed batches don't come in AG-VG. This goes many times over for the typical batch brought in by old men. There should be some F's and even a few cullish VF's and XF's. There are lots and lots of later date Fines that were removed from circulation that are usually in random mixes. So it's apparent that this lot was picked over at one time. It's probable the higher grade coins were removed and sold separ- ately. The '01-S should have been discovered and removed at that time. It's not the dealer's fault that it was overlooked. Why is anyone going to waste his time searching picked over junk for a seller who knows he has junk?
Dealers miss a lot of stuff. Rare coins come in in bulk deals and then go right back out in bulk deals. This is just the way it is. How often do you suppose a customer calls up a coin shop and tells them he owes them money because there was an '01-S in the roll of Barbers?
<< <i>Dealers miss a lot of stuff. Rare coins come in in bulk deals and then go right back out in bulk deals. This is just the way it is. How often do you suppose a customer calls up a coin shop and tells them he owes them money because there was an '01-S in the roll of Barbers? >>
Bingo.
My local dealer will routinely flip bulk deals within hours (or even minutes). If his perusal doesn't find anything that raises a flag that something better might be in there, it usually goes right back out for small profit (but profit nonetheless). I've seen lots/pieces be in his possession all of 5 minutes and he makes $$$.
1. He doesn't spend valuable time on what might be a fruitless endeavor.
2. He doesn't have large sums of cash tied up on bulk material.
Of course if there are keys or material that he needs for inventory stock, that's of course a different matter.
He only has one standing rule with all of his regulars: "If you find a gem or a steal that I missed, don't tell me about it. I don't want to know." Which is fair. By giving us potential deals he doesn't want it rubbed in his face when something slips through the cracks.
There's a lot of people in this thread that seem to believe that dealers are the same losers without lives, and with infinite time, that they are...
Bagging on the dealer in this case is silly. A busy shop, short staffed, two deep in customers,and they are expected to stop and look through a small sum of junk silver that upon initial examination looks to be just that- junk silver. I would like to hear from dealers how many times customers walk out having never made it to the counter when this is the approach. If a shop is busy and there is an obvious wait, I am outta there and suspect many others do the same-
I will rag on dealers plenty when deserving, but come on. The next thread willl be about lousy customer service at so and so's shop because I had to wait 45 minutes to get the counter because the dealer was lolly gagging over pocket fulls of junk silver and I was there with big dough and ready to buy.
Bottom line this guy should have left his number or contact info, then, how the shop proceeds would be a dertimining factor for ranting or praising.
Okay, i should not have included NASCAR. Is this dealer or store a member of the ANA or PNG?
There was not much Bulk in this transaction. Keets had time to look at coins and or jewerly.
It just strikes me odd that this hobby does not frown upon taking new collectors, old people, widow women to the cleaners on coin transactions.
Some local dealers would love to have customers 3 deep and 2 wide right now.
As far as crying about spending time looking at collections and making offer to buy and being turned down, LOL. Happens in most fields, car salesman do not sell a car to every person that walks in the door, same for motorcycle salesmen. Same can be said for rooofers, lawyers and even docotors. ( although most docs do not let you visit the first time for free) Heck i even spent 2 hours of my time showing a duplex to a person that showed up late and then decided they were not interested.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
i see nothing wrong with what was explained, i mean, if i walk into a jewelry store with a bag of diamonds, and the guy who waits on me tells me they are worth $2 each, depending on how bad i need the money i just may sell them. i dont kow anyhting about diamonds, i am expecting the person behind the counter to be more aware of diamond values than myself, hell, i may even trust that he isnt ripping me off. but im willing to bet that if i sell those diamonds im going to be required to leave some sort of identification on file with the shop. i agree with the comments of someone else, there never seems to be enough time to go through the items with the customer, but ALWAYS time to look them over once the customer leaves. my conscience would bother me too much i guess, i would have to at least attempt tp track the guy down. lets face it, there are other ways of identifying someone than with a phone number. i also agree with another response, everyone has to draw thier own line, i cant join the crowd with high fives all around for this one, thumbs down. WAY down.
<< <i>i see nothing wrong with what was explained, i mean, if i walk into a jewelry store with a bag of diamonds, and the guy who waits on me tells me they are worth $2 each, depending on how bad i need the money i just may sell them. i dont kow anyhting about diamonds, i am expecting the person behind the counter to be more aware of diamond values than myself, hell, i may even trust that he isnt ripping me off. but im willing to bet that if i sell those diamonds im going to be required to leave some sort of identification on file with the shop. i agree with the comments of someone else, there never seems to be enough time to go through the items with the customer, but ALWAYS time to look them over once the customer leaves. my conscience would bother me too much i guess, i would have to at least attempt tp track the guy down. lets face it, there are other ways of identifying someone than with a phone number. i also agree with another response, everyone has to draw thier own line, i cant join the crowd with high fives all around for this one, thumbs down. WAY down. >>
I am not giving any high fives... and I do not think anyone else has... however... I will stand by the following...
If a person took the time to stash something they thought might be valuable...and over the years did absolutely nothing to find out their true value (if any) and then waited until the last minute when they needed or wanted immediate cash for their "treasure"... then that is their fault if something "slips" by only to be "picked up" by someone else.
Every seasoned collector knows that selling when you NEED to sell rarely works out as well as selling when you WANT to sell... if you at least have a knowledge of what you own, then you should come out alright (as long as you haven't overvalued your holdings)...
I think it is a darn shame this old man never took the time to inquire or investigate as to what he was actually saving...he apparently had many years to do so... same goes for anyone who has inherited a collection/accumulation... the knowledge is more than available and all that is needed is a little time, patience and "foot work"... if you are too lazy to do the work, you do not deserve the reward... plain and simple...
BTW... the foot work can simply be going into a shop or a few and asking (long before you decide to sell) about how much this stuff is worth...do I have anything rare? Or getting a book and reading it... or going online and learning something (heaven forbid)... waiting for someone else to maybe hand you a winning lottery ticket just because they're supposed to is just plain lazy and silly...
That old man HAD WON THE LOTTERY... he just did not check the numbers and gave the ticket away...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<<man, if that ain't the truth. i thought it was a cool story and all i'm finding out is that with some soul searching i'll see myself as the scum sucking scoundrel that i really am. consider my mouth shut.......................>>
I wouldnt go that far Al.
What I would do though from now on, and this is stricly your call.
Id be more catious with small bulk sales. Look over all the coins, and GET the contact info.
I enjoyed Al's story. And I will also say I believe he's a completely honest guy and did nothing wrong.
I have heard from dealers many times how the "look through every coin" scenario plays out, and it's almost always like this...
...Non-collector customer brings in a pile of coins, unsorted, unidentified. ...Dealer examines each coin. And 90% of the time there's nothing but bulk silver, wheat cents, bicentennial quarters, and arcade tokens. ...And let's say there IS something of value, and the dealer says, "This pile here is worth <melt price>, but I can pay you $X <a fair offer> for these three coins since they are more valuable."
This is where the crowd cheers, right? But wait, there's more...
...Customer says, "OK, you can have the cheap ones, but I'm keeping those three valuable coins."
So the time is invested, a fair offer made, but it ends up simply a bulk deal anyway. The non-collector customer simply will not sell the ones singled out as more valuable.
This is why many dealers do not feel it's worth the time to go through each coin if there's no obvious value. It's wasted time.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I read this thread in the morning. I figured if it made it to tonight it had potential.
Dude went into a coin shop and sold some bullion coins. He had some jewelry too. Coin dealer felt the dude wanted to keep the jewelry, and the dude did.
Out of the bullion coins, a key date was found after the dude left happy with his transaction. What is to rationalize? You were told an honest story with all the details, instead of "Hey guess what I found on the head at the 7-11 today?".
Just had a chance to read the thread, and I am really glad Al posted about his experience. It is amazing that some of these rarities are still sitting around out there in old purses, drawers, etc; you might go 25 years and not have something like this happen. It is unfortunate that the gentleman who left the coins did not leave any contact information ("call me if you find something valuable," for instance) or that he did not leave his number when Al asked for it regarding the missing jewelry. I can't find any fault with Al here. You have to consider the context. As a practicing physician, patients who come to me often say something like, "Well, I was going to Dr. so-and-so, and my blood pressure was really high, so he put me on medication, and the next day I was in the ER with low blood pressure, so I don't trust him any more." And I nod, and listen, and think: "Could have been me." You see 25, 30 people a day, they all have extra problems, you're an hour behind, you do your best, but in a busy situation there are bound to be some bad outcomes. My point is, unless you were there, knew what the situation was, you have NO business pontificating about Al's ethics or what he should have done. There is not one scintilla of doubt in my mind that if the former owner of this coin happens by the shop again when Al is there, or calls, that he will receive what is due him.
<< <i>there never seems to be enough time to go through the items with the customer, but ALWAYS time to look them over once the customer leaves. my conscience would bother me too much i guess, i would have to at least attempt tp track the guy down. >>
Suppose the dealer just threw the coins in the junk silver bin and sold them to you (as you can see a few posts ago, this happens sometimes). Once you got home and found what you had, would your conscience bother you enough to go back to the store and ask if they could help you track down the guy that sold the coins to the store?
It's unbelievable how some folks get this "Holy'er Then Thou" thing when something unexpected that turns out to be good happens. They twist it into this conspiracy type situation and think....how else could this have happened...well, just like keets said it did, that's how!
what is most disturbing of all is the responses to this post that say so much as.. its ok to take advantage of people that should know better. never mind the fact that this old guy in question may not have been able to see the small print in a guide such as a redbook. may not have understood anything about mintmarks, but its ok because he should have known better. and what i meant potatoe is that im sure the dealers just turn the coins without inspecting them for better dates. if a guy was in such a hurry that he couldnt wait foir the guy ahead of him, he just wants to get in, cash out and get out, im not so sure i would want to buy from that guy anyway.
We're not talking about having to pull out a loupe or microscope to check for some obscure variety that would only sell for big bucks to the right buyer that you may never find. All you have to do is eyeball the date and mintmark. No big whoop.
The truth is, I'm somewhat hypocritical because I'm sure that if I were the shop owner that I would have been thrilled at first. But later I may rethink having you do any cataloging and sorting.
That being said, the seller could have easily bought a Red Book and found a ballpark figure. If he were ignorant as to what a Red Book is or the concept of a pricing guide then he still had the opportunity to shop the collection to other dealers.
<< <i>what is most disturbing of all is the responses to this post that say so much as.. its ok to take advantage of people that should know better. >>
If you wouldn't try to find the guy as I described in my previous post, you're on board with the "it's okay" crowd, you know...
1. How many quarters were involved? 2. If a person is well liked, is ripping Ok? 3. If a store is busy, is it Ok to give a customer less that your full attention? 4. If a posting is made, do you need permission to make a comment? 5. When is "ripping" Ok?
I understand that a coin store may get busy as any store might, but does each customer not deserve your full attention. If the person had a $1000 bag of quarters, it certainly would not be feasable to look at each. However, a 100 or so is doable. If a person goes to a professional do they not deserve to be treated professionally?
I don't think Al is dishonest....I believe he IS honest. I also believe that there is NO WAY I would have handled it the same way. I would have found time to do a quick, cursory look, at each coin (date/MM) because it doesn't sound like it was hundreds/thousands of coins.
I also believe this is the way a lot of brick and mortars operate, and it sounds like a lot of our board members are on board with this as well. Not the way I would do it, not the way I would have my son learn to do it, nor would I want employees doing it that way either.
It is what it is, but it isn't cool in my book. To those that think the old guy had it coming for not knowing what he had....I do hope you are in his shoes sometime. You remind me of people that are ok letting thiefs and murderers out because you don't like incarceration or death penalties....maybe if it happened to you, or your close family, you would change, but until then, you are all for their release.
Comments
<< <i>If I had the mans telephone # I would call him and offer to give him some more money for that coin discovery. After all whats right is right. That way everyone would be happy all along. Imho >>
This was my thought as well - however, in the story it said the man called the store back, and would NOT leave his phone number, which is unfortunate. I would definitely want to try and get in contact with him, and offer him some of the profit. Since this coin was in the 'G/VG' stack, GS Bid is $4500 in G and $11,000 in VG - this is a heck of a windfall. It would warrant a short article in the local paper about a rare coin and the good will effort of the dealer who helped a customer get much more money than he thought he would. This would be good publicity and folks would keep you in mind as a good place to take their valuables to. Just my perspective, naive as it may seem, but I also worked in manufacturing for 25 years AND run my own part time biz. But I have done exactly the same thing when I bought a bulk foreign coin lot and found a rare die variety 20 cent Newfie in it. I sold it for a several hundred dollars, and showed up at the guy's door with $100 and told him the story. He was very happy, and has since refered other folks to me who had stuff to sell.
occasions.. Every single time they have taken my information down to document the transaction..
If the total sold equals over a couple hundred bucks, they take a copy of my I.D..
They claim they are required to do this by law.. If that's not the case. I would like to know...
<< <i> We sorted through the coins first, some junk silver from the 40's-60's and an assortment of some Barbers/Lib Nickels/Buffalo Nickels/Indian Head Cents. Then I looked at his jewelry which was stuff his wife had owned: >>
So how many Barber quarters were in the stuff separated from the "junk" silver?
Must have been a lot..
<< <i>I want to know what State this coin shop is located.. >>
Central state.
<< <i>
<< <i>I want to know what State this coin shop is located.. >>
Central state. >>
Is that one of Obama's 57 States.. I looked at my map and couldn't find a State named Central
In order to find the information needed I would have to have a State in the listed 50...
<< <i>I want to know what State this coin shop is located.. I have sold 90% to my local B&M on several
occasions.. Every single time they have taken my information down to document the transaction..
If the total sold equals over a couple hundred bucks, they take a copy of my I.D.. >>
I have seen this procedure in pawn shops, but never in a coin shop here in downstate Illinois.
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For those that think Al has soiled some ethical code, shame on you for being so judgmental! You really had to have been there before casting your aspersions on Al's character!
No contact information was given and the fact that the old fellow told Al to give the jewelry to his wife (Al's wife) if he came across it says a lot about how this fellow felt about what he was selling. He did not want to be contacted or was in a position where he could not be contacted. (Calling from a pay phone perhaps?)
Hey, maybe he's a retired Cat Burglar selling the spoils of "just one last job"??
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Amassing. Don't have time to look at them when the customer is there, but once they leave. Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave. If it is a true bulk in bulk out, the coins shouldn't be sorted at all. Dump them in a bucket and sell them bulk. >>
If the old man had had the patience to buy a Red Book himself then he would have been fine.
Knowledge is power.
Regardless of all of the replies that are pro and con on Al's story, I have an issue which is much more important.
Specifically, when is Al going to take and post a picture of the 1901S Barber Quarter
Just a little something to think about
Per the Barber Qtr mintages, there is approx one 1901 s per every 3,640 Qtrs. Now consider that over 100 yrs later, each 1901 s has had at least 2 to 3 owners. Figure during that time period, if a person holds on to something they considered had value, chances are highly likely that one of those owners would have discovered the rarity of the 1901 s. With that knowledge, lets be liberal and say 1 out of 10 of those strings of 2 to 3 owners and there relatives/friends never ever over 100 yrs checked a price guide. In other words 9 out of 10 1901 s qtrs have been taken out of junk silver piles (conservative estimate I think) ........... that would change the figure of one in 3,640 qts, to one in 36,400 in junk silver piles.
Now ...... ask yourself, how many thousands of times are you going to check the date and mm of every junk silver coin thrown in a pile of other coins, while customers are waiting ???????????? Do you realize how many customers walked out the door while you've wasted your time playing the lottery ????????? That's no way to run a business. Most margins on Bullion transactions are very small, it doesn't pay to check every coin in the hopes of finding that one in 36,400 ...... it has to be done when the Dealer has time to do it later, if ever in many cases. In most cases, people have put away junk silver realizing it's silver, or perhaps because the series has changed and they wanted to hold on to something that won't be in circulation much longer ...... in either case, most usually it's nothing but change they had in their pockets, it was all just common dates because that's what they had, people 75 years ago didn't just end up with rarities in there pockets ..... there are written diaries that have been published back then that clearly demonstrate how rare it was to find key dates for those that were actively roll/bag searching. What Dealers now a days have walking thru their doors are the junk coins Grandma held on to ..... vary rare to have a key date mixed in ...... certainly not worth loosing a waiting customer over by checking every date/mm while they wait.
Also consider, there are probably more conterfeit 1901 s qtrs than authentic ones ..... if you checked every date/mm and found one, just how certain are you that you can identify that counterfeit, and then just how much are you willing to pay the old man on the spot knowing most are counterfeit ???????? Afterall, isn't it possible he knew it was in there, knew it was a counterfeit he bought 40 yrs ago, figured it had no value, no need to mention it, maybe even let good ole Keets jump for joy .. just to have a chuckle knowing he'd later find out it was counterfeit. I've collected coins for 40 yrs, sometimes intently, other times with large gaps of inactivity. It still amazes me how many counterfiet coins are out their ...... not even considering the modern day Chinese counterfeits.
In the coin business, you have days you loose money and days you gain money ....... just the way it is.
If a person has a coin that isn't junk silver, then they for their own protection needs to point it out to the Dealer.
Like I said, just things to think about.
Excuse the grammer and misspellings, gotta go.
<< <i>This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit!
<< <i>
<< <i>This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit!
Double
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This is just a good example of what some dealers salivate at the thought of. Heck of a way to build up negative karma, IMO -- and there's really no need to justify it 6 ways from Sunday; a rip is a rip is a rip. Enjoy the $5-7K profit!
Double
Make it a triple.
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<< <i>The truth often hurts.
... which is that your comments were B.S.
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<< <i>Whatever floats your boat!
Your's is so full of crap that it's in danger of sinking. Here, I'll flush for you.
originalisbest>>>>>>>>
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Thanks for sharing your story. As a dealer and someone who spent a year "apprenticing" in a retail store, I can appreciate everything you have experienced.
In my experience at a B&M each day was different, yet aspects were routine and the same. In my business where today I do shows versus B&M there is in most cases a difference in expertise of the customer for sure. Thus the situation usually does not come up much in contrast to a retail store where this happens a bit more but it is still rare.
When I was learning the business side in the shop I can recall a couple of occasions where something in a coin group was missed. Especially if you are swamped and have 3 more people waiting to be attended too. Some days you were overwhelmed and others you could work in the back most of the day.
In this day of CTR/AML reporting and all we always got name, address, and phone number information along with a driver's license or some other photo ID documented. So I have all that information and would then be able to call back a seller and offer to send them more $ in a case such as this.
I have also come across things in searching more carefully and not been able to send more money to a seller. The example I am thinking of is a 1950-S/D quarter which was in the 90% tray I discovered. Once it was in the 90% tray after an initial look through, there was no way to trace it back but of course it was not a 4 figure coin either. It slabbed as an XF45 if I recall at PCGS.
I recall buying a cool little 1964 error dime where nearly the whole obverse had been struck though except the area around the date which was bold and clear. I bought it as part of a small collection and really didn't have the resources at my fingertips nor knowledge at that moment to price it. I offered the seller $20 for the coin and stated I would split anything above that amount with her. I actually wound up selling wholesale that dime for $150, a rather neat little sum and I forwarded an additional $55 to the seller just as we had agreed too.
The goodwill I have gotten from making this my policy has been worth it to me. It has helped me get a look at deals and referals which otherwise may not have taken place. A good reputation for fairness and honesty is pretty important in this business as it should be in any business.
I will also be up front and say there was one occasion where the transaction was difficult and time consuming and I got a bonus of a couple hundred dollars on a coin and I didn't make any adjustment. In that case it was a VAM I was aware of on a coin already holdered and not attributed. I wasn't aware of the VAM on that particular coin at the time the transaction took place but spotted it upon closer inspection a couple of days later.
I also recall cherry-picking with an associate a tail bar from one of the largest silver dollar dealers in the country, owning the coin for about 10 minutes at a cost of $485 and selling it for $1,500. In that case I felt my luck and knowledge earned us something that another dealer should be aware of and was acceptable. I split the $ 50/50 with my associate as he had picked it out as a nice coin, and I spotted the VAM when I flipped it over. I can recall the conversation clearly. He was looking through a box of 2x2 Morgans and handed the coin to me, "What do you think of this one."
I look at the obverse and it looks original and maybe a 63, I flip it over and low and behold a tail bar and said, "We own it."
Pointing out the tail bar to him. It was a great way to cover the plane ticket for our flights.
I guess the summation would be you have a general policy that you tend to follow for the most part but there are occasional exceptions along the way.
The offset to the OP's story as a dealer is also something to consider. You do make mistakes buying, the best dealers in the country don't make very many but I suspect if they are honest even the most experienced ones have made a mistake. Once in awhile you need a nice surprise to offset a mistake as well. It could be in the form of a counterfeit you just didn't catch or by accident something that has been stolen. Thankfully that has been far and few between but both have happened despite my best efforts so once in awhile its nice to have an offset along the way as well.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
I have myself gone back and paid sellers of bulk coins to me a portion of windfalls - but that is a very personal decision to make. In my mind, not doing so in no way reflects badly on the individual - when it appears that there was an absence of intent to defraud (rip) a seller.
As far as I am concerned, at some point a seller of an item - be it a coin, a car or a marble collection - has to take at least a little personal responsibility for knowing what they are selling. Placing the entire burden on the buyer smacks me as (using a term mis-used earlier) "bleeding heart."
Sadly, the society today has moved sharply towards a complete lack of personal responsibility. It is far, far easier to just be a victim. If excoriating Al for his actions makes you feel a bit better about yourselves, you've fully bought into the "Victocrat" mentality. Congratulations! You've earned your well-deserved place on the ash-heap of losers.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Ya'all need to spend some time on the other side of the table/counter to truly appreciate what it is like... no whining here...just a bit of real life...
How many "super rare" "very old" silver dollars with a pic of Ike on it have we been shown? More than we care to remember... and so many other "silly" moments...
Here is my perspective on things...
If the man had said "I have this 1901-S 25c that I was told might be worth some $...what is it worth?"... then the ethical thing to do is honestly appraise it... authenticate... etc. and then make a fair offer... if keets were to say something like "nah...it is just a common coin for the melt bin" or "well it is worth a little premium...like maybe $50".... now that would be a RIP... not what happened...
If the old man had specifically asked keets to tell him if he had anything of extra value... "would you mind taking some time to check these coins to see if I have anything rare?" ... well, if keets had the time...fine... again...not what happened...
A few years ago I was set up at a busy show... 12 ft. of table space... just me... 4 cases...notebooks (the day before someone had made off with an entire page of 30's Walkers out of one of the books...cost of doing business)... boxes of 2x2's and at least 5 people at my table looking at coins and all wanting my full attention...NOW... and up walks a couple looking kind of sheepish... anyway...the guy says "I have some coins to sell...are you buying?"..."sure", I said..."what've you got?" with a smile... impatient customers glaring at this couple as they had diverted me from them... he reaches into his pocket and pull out a handful of raw naked coins and drops them on one of my cases...coins rolling in all directions...
So I try not to obviously roll my eyes and kindly push the coins back into a pile of sorts... then I ask the couple to give me a moment...so I can wrap up with a few of the folks that had been talking with me before the couple walked up... do what I have to... two of the folks tell me they'll come back when I'm not so busy... anyway...back to the couple...
(More people walikng up to my table to look at my cases... a few folks trying to look past this couple to see... someone says "excuse me" while they attempt to get to one of my notebooks... I remember yesterday and the missing page...shake it off and keep on smiling)... back to the couple... and their humble pile of coins...
First off, I notice they are all dollars...second... there are two Ikes on top...another underneath some Morgans... total of around 12-13 coins... I pick out the Ikes and not knowing an Ike error from a pimple, I hand them back to the man and tell him they are worth $1 ea...smile smile...
(A few of the folks let me know they's like to see something in one of my cases...I motion that I'll be right with them) I ask the man if there is anything special or are these common circs...he does not know what I mean...I explain... he says "oh yeah...they are just common circs"... I count them and multiply by $11 (the going rate at the time)... added a few bucks to round it off...he says "fine" and off they go after i pay them...
I toss the coins into a tray and turn to help the patiently waiting (what's left of them, anyway) customers...
A few hours later I get a chance to look over the Morgans... a 81-CC... an AU 84-S and an 8TF 78 along with otherwise common circs... I actually looked around the show to see if I could find the couple...they were long gone...
You see...if the man had said... I have this 81-CC Morgan and this 84-S and etc"... then I would have graded them and made an appropriate offer... not what happened...
I have watched a dealer once at a busy show...take an entire 4 hours to go patiently thru a large bag full of 2x2'd coins brought in by a man and his mother... no one could get near this dealers table all that time...the guy insisted that each coin be appraised individually and this dealer was silly enough to waste his show doing this... the guy had approached me first and I declined as I was to busy...
Anyway, after the 4 hours and the dealer giving his offer on the lot weith each coin itemized... the guy decides he doesn't want to sell for that...and thinks the coins are worth more than the offer (and I know that this dealer is one of the fairer dealers setting up at shows in my area)... so this dealer has wasted an entire show for nothing...
That's enough ...
Know what you have...or take the appropriate due diligence to learn... or pay the consequences... it is really that simple...
<< <i>Is this store or dealer a member of the ANA, png or NASCAR? >>
That's just a rude remark.
Good for you in being honest with your boss, but don't you feel bad for the guy who brought the coin in.
<< <i>I've read the story and the comments, I think the customer didn't get a "fair deal" and that's wrong. You can't get far in business without respecting your customer on both the buy and sell side of the transaction.
Good for you in being honest with your boss, but don't you feel bad for the guy who brought the coin in. >>
Apparently the comments that you read didn't sink in.
I dont think Keets did anything wrong here, if anyone did, its his boss. He is the owner of this shop and has a responsibility to pay fair and honest prices.
Also, its the sellers responsibility to know what he is selling. Id like to think that if Keets did view all the coins closely, he would have educated the seller as to what he had.
From what Ive read from Keets, and our brief convs via pm's, I can say with some confidence that Keets is a stand up guy.
Cherry picking is not the same as a rip. Period. You can say otherwise, but its part of the game. Everyone knows it, and its perfectly fine. Thats NOT what happened here though. And cherry picking has nothing to do with this thread or situation. Using that argument here only adds fuel to the fire that cherry picking is wrong. Its not, nor is what happened to Keets.
All of this is just my personal opinion. Take it as you will.
Question though for Keets, if the guy came back in with more to sell, would you tell him what he sold you and would you cut him in?
Also, what do you think your boss would do if he came back in?
<< <i>I think that the #1 thing Al might have learned from this post is to keep his mouth shut.
>>
I imagine Keets knew exactly where this was headed.
To my mind there isn't so huge a distinction between buying bulk coins over
the counter (or anywhere else) and looking at coins in circulation. If I open
a roll of pennies from the bank and find a '69-S DDO I will not be showing up
at the bank the next day to cut them a check for the full wholesale value of
the coin. I'm not even going to offer a finder's fee. I might buy the tellers a
box of chocolate at Christmas time. Even when I find good coins in change
my family provides I'll usually just give them about half what it's worth. They
were just going to spend it anyway. Thjey did nothing special to acquire it
or eat only at restaurants that give the best change.
It's the same way when someone brings bulk coin into a shop. The only rea-
son they were saved is they thought they were worth more than face. They
are unusual coins (like Ikes) or silver or maybe just nickels from the 1940's or
buffalos with no dates. Is a dealer expected to acid date the buffalos just to
be certain there's no '16/ '16 before paying?
The dealer has a moral responsibility to pay a fair price and that's it. It is not
reasonable to expect him to hunt through tons of junk looking for a reason to
pay a lot more. If a seller presents stuff as junk, and it appears to be junk
then that's the basis on which the price will be set if the dealer wants to stay
in business.
I think a point in my earlier post was missed. Barber quarters in mixed batches
don't come in AG-VG. This goes many times over for the typical batch brought
in by old men. There should be some F's and even a few cullish VF's and XF's.
There are lots and lots of later date Fines that were removed from circulation
that are usually in random mixes. So it's apparent that this lot was picked over
at one time. It's probable the higher grade coins were removed and sold separ-
ately. The '01-S should have been discovered and removed at that time. It's
not the dealer's fault that it was overlooked. Why is anyone going to waste his
time searching picked over junk for a seller who knows he has junk?
Dealers miss a lot of stuff. Rare coins come in in bulk deals and then go right back
out in bulk deals. This is just the way it is. How often do you suppose a customer
calls up a coin shop and tells them he owes them money because there was an '01-S
in the roll of Barbers?
<< <i>Dealers miss a lot of stuff. Rare coins come in in bulk deals and then go right back
out in bulk deals. This is just the way it is. How often do you suppose a customer
calls up a coin shop and tells them he owes them money because there was an '01-S
in the roll of Barbers? >>
Bingo.
My local dealer will routinely flip bulk deals within hours (or even minutes). If his perusal doesn't find anything that raises a flag that something better might be in there, it usually goes right back out for small profit (but profit nonetheless). I've seen lots/pieces be in his possession all of 5 minutes and he makes $$$.
1. He doesn't spend valuable time on what might be a fruitless endeavor.
2. He doesn't have large sums of cash tied up on bulk material.
Of course if there are keys or material that he needs for inventory stock, that's of course a different matter.
He only has one standing rule with all of his regulars: "If you find a gem or a steal that I missed, don't tell me about it. I don't want to know." Which is fair. By giving us potential deals he doesn't want it rubbed in his face when something slips through the cracks.
There's a lot of people in this thread that seem to believe that dealers are the same losers without lives, and with infinite time, that they are...
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I will rag on dealers plenty when deserving, but come on. The next thread willl be about lousy customer service at so and so's shop because I had to wait 45 minutes to get the counter because the dealer was lolly gagging over pocket fulls of junk silver and I was there with big dough and ready to buy.
Bottom line this guy should have left his number or contact info, then, how the shop proceeds would be a dertimining factor for ranting or praising.
There was not much Bulk in this transaction. Keets had time to look at coins and or jewerly.
It just strikes me odd that this hobby does not frown upon taking new collectors, old people, widow women to the cleaners on coin transactions.
Some local dealers would love to have customers 3 deep and 2 wide right now.
As far as crying about spending time looking at collections and making offer to buy and being turned down, LOL. Happens in most fields, car salesman do not sell a car to every person that walks in the door, same for motorcycle salesmen. Same can be said for rooofers, lawyers and even docotors. ( although most docs do not let you visit the first time for free) Heck i even spent 2 hours of my time showing a duplex to a person that showed up late and then decided they were not interested.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
If you have to rationalize it that much; it should indicate to you what is actually right.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>i see nothing wrong with what was explained, i mean, if i walk into a jewelry store with a bag of diamonds, and the guy who waits on me tells me they are worth $2 each, depending on how bad i need the money i just may sell them. i dont kow anyhting about diamonds, i am expecting the person behind the counter to be more aware of diamond values than myself, hell, i may even trust that he isnt ripping me off. but im willing to bet that if i sell those diamonds im going to be required to leave some sort of identification on file with the shop. i agree with the comments of someone else, there never seems to be enough time to go through the items with the customer, but ALWAYS time to look them over once the customer leaves. my conscience would bother me too much i guess, i would have to at least attempt tp track the guy down. lets face it, there are other ways of identifying someone than with a phone number. i also agree with another response, everyone has to draw thier own line, i cant join the crowd with high fives all around for this one, thumbs down. WAY down. >>
I am not giving any high fives... and I do not think anyone else has... however... I will stand by the following...
If a person took the time to stash something they thought might be valuable...and over the years did absolutely nothing to find out their true value (if any) and then waited until the last minute when they needed or wanted immediate cash for their "treasure"... then that is their fault if something "slips" by only to be "picked up" by someone else.
Every seasoned collector knows that selling when you NEED to sell rarely works out as well as selling when you WANT to sell... if you at least have a knowledge of what you own, then you should come out alright (as long as you haven't overvalued your holdings)...
I think it is a darn shame this old man never took the time to inquire or investigate as to what he was actually saving...he apparently had many years to do so... same goes for anyone who has inherited a collection/accumulation... the knowledge is more than available and all that is needed is a little time, patience and "foot work"... if you are too lazy to do the work, you do not deserve the reward... plain and simple...
BTW... the foot work can simply be going into a shop or a few and asking (long before you decide to sell) about how much this stuff is worth...do I have anything rare? Or getting a book and reading it... or going online and learning something (heaven forbid)... waiting for someone else to maybe hand you a winning lottery ticket just because they're supposed to is just plain lazy and silly...
That old man HAD WON THE LOTTERY... he just did not check the numbers and gave the ticket away...
I wouldnt go that far Al.
What I would do though from now on, and this is stricly your call.
Id be more catious with small bulk sales. Look over all the coins, and GET the contact info.
Anything else is on the seller.
I have heard from dealers many times how the "look through every coin" scenario plays out, and it's almost always like this...
...Non-collector customer brings in a pile of coins, unsorted, unidentified.
...Dealer examines each coin. And 90% of the time there's nothing but bulk silver, wheat cents, bicentennial quarters, and arcade tokens.
...And let's say there IS something of value, and the dealer says, "This pile here is worth <melt price>, but I can pay you $X <a fair offer> for these three coins since they are more valuable."
This is where the crowd cheers, right? But wait, there's more...
...Customer says, "OK, you can have the cheap ones, but I'm keeping those three valuable coins."
So the time is invested, a fair offer made, but it ends up simply a bulk deal anyway. The non-collector customer simply will not sell the ones singled out as more valuable.
This is why many dealers do not feel it's worth the time to go through each coin if there's no obvious value. It's wasted time.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I read this thread in the morning. I figured if it made it to tonight it had potential.
Dude went into a coin shop and sold some bullion coins. He had some jewelry too. Coin dealer felt the dude wanted to keep the jewelry, and the dude did.
Out of the bullion coins, a key date was found after the dude left happy with his transaction. What is to rationalize? You were told an honest story with all the details, instead of "Hey guess what I found on the head at the 7-11 today?".
Congrats Keets.
For those who judge him, he didn't ask you to. What gives you the right? Some gall.
<< <i>there never seems to be enough time to go through the items with the customer, but ALWAYS time to look them over once the customer leaves. my conscience would bother me too much i guess, i would have to at least attempt tp track the guy down. >>
Suppose the dealer just threw the coins in the junk silver bin and sold them to you (as you can see a few posts ago, this happens sometimes). Once you got home and found what you had, would your conscience bother you enough to go back to the store and ask if they could help you track down the guy that sold the coins to the store?
<< <i>im sure that happens potatoe, never. >>
I'm pretty sure it never happens, too.
Interesting, isn't it, how easy it is for people to expect *other people* to do things that they wouldn't do themselves.
edited for clarity...
keets,
As you and most here know, you did fine.....
It's unbelievable how some folks get this "Holy'er Then Thou" thing when something unexpected that turns out to be good happens.
They twist it into this conspiracy type situation and think....how else could this have happened...well, just like keets said it did, that's how!
The truth is, I'm somewhat hypocritical because I'm sure that if I were the shop owner that I would have been thrilled at first. But later I may rethink having you do any cataloging and sorting.
That being said, the seller could have easily bought a Red Book and found a ballpark figure. If he were ignorant as to what a Red Book is or the concept of a pricing guide then he still had the opportunity to shop the collection to other dealers.
It's a wash,IMO.
<< <i>what is most disturbing of all is the responses to this post that say so much as.. its ok to take advantage of people that should know better. >>
If you wouldn't try to find the guy as I described in my previous post, you're on board with the "it's okay" crowd, you know...
1. How many quarters were involved?
2. If a person is well liked, is ripping Ok?
3. If a store is busy, is it Ok to give a customer less that your full attention?
4. If a posting is made, do you need permission to make a comment?
5. When is "ripping" Ok?
I understand that a coin store may get busy as any store might, but does each customer not deserve your full attention. If the person had a $1000 bag of quarters, it certainly would not be feasable to look at each. However, a 100 or so is doable. If a person goes to a professional do they not deserve to be treated professionally?
I also believe that there is NO WAY I would have handled it the same way. I would have found time to do a quick, cursory look, at each coin (date/MM) because it doesn't sound like it was hundreds/thousands of coins.
I also believe this is the way a lot of brick and mortars operate, and it sounds like a lot of our board members are on board with this as well. Not the way I would do it, not the way I would have my son learn to do it, nor would I want employees doing it that way either.
It is what it is, but it isn't cool in my book. To those that think the old guy had it coming for not knowing what he had....I do hope you are in his shoes sometime. You remind me of people that are ok letting thiefs and murderers out because you don't like incarceration or death penalties....maybe if it happened to you, or your close family, you would change, but until then, you are all for their release.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment