Not the typical, everyday, run-of the-mill across the counter buy.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Sorry, just keeps getting to aggravating.
0
Comments
Is there some way you can track the guy down to pay him closer to what his stuff was actually worth to you?
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Then there's my other story I've told many times before.
It's fun to be a "fly on the wall" in a busy coin shop. Heck, even a less-than-busy shop can be interesting sometimes.
The early bird gets the worm
BUT
the second mouse gets the cheese.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
check for an added mintmark.
But it still made me feel sad... The guy "didn't really want to sell his wife's jewelry," and then proceeded to lose it. And he had a very valuable coin and didn't realize it.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>Amassing. Don't have time to look at them when the customer is there, but once they leave. Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave. If it is a true bulk in bulk out, the coins shouldn't be sorted at all. Dump them in a bucket and sell them bulk. >>
Store is full of people. Some genius brings in 2500 mixed coins in buckets.
What prevents them from even presorting them beforehand?
Try it a few hundred times and unfortunately you become a little jaded.
Dealers HAVE to sort out everything to fill books etc. The moral of the story is the people can sort stuff a little beforehand/go to the public library etc. Literally we do have people bring in 5 gallon buckets of mixed coins. Small bags etc are cool we can all check/sort those no problem.
Whats funny is 90% of the time if you TRY to be the nice guy and check for dates from buckets o coins they get weird (thinking every coin is a HUGE treasure) and start thinking they should doublecheck you at home to make sure your not screwing them. Its the truth.
and BTW our buy rate is 93-95% of what comes in and there are 6 shops within 20 miles.
<< <i>Cool story. I was helping out a dealer in his shop one day when a key date Barber dime in decent XF-ish grade came through in a junk silver lot. He actually spotted it and gave the little old lady a hundred bucks for it, when he clearly could have just gotten it for junk silver like the rest. It was a $350-ish coin so he wasn't exactly paying strong money for it, but he was happy and so was the lady.
Then there's my other story I've told many times before.
It's fun to be a "fly on the wall" in a busy coin shop. Heck, even a less-than-busy shop can be interesting sometimes. >>
Very cool story Keets! Congrats on your new-found perspective on this hobby and best wishes on your future in coin dealing! I mean that.
What I really like about this OP is the lack of the Keetsian "arrogance" if you will. Here's a guy posting based on a fresh and different perspective from what I've read from him before, although mostly well-developed and thought-out postions. On that basis, I've always respected Keets' insights into this hobby. It is now quite refershing to read his opinion from a different, yet more humble perspective.
I welcome the new Keets perspective BTW.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Al- you and I have a lot in common. I left the automotive business after 25 years for this crazy world. One thing I've come to recognize, but not accept: Ethics is not the status quo in this business. I've pointed out high value items to my associate and/or my boss on numerous occasions while conducting a purchase over the counter from an uninformed seller, yet often the notice is ignored or the commensurate "stinkeye" is an unspoken command to back off. Don't know of a practical solution for the attitude yet, but walking isn't an option.
If its pointed out I pay for it. If the customer made a modicum of effort to presort I'll be nice and check for better stuff and pay for it. Learned my lesson when someone years ago brought in 4 coins and one was a better date. I was working for someone else at the time with similar policies of buy it ALL cheap. We lost the deal and much more since the person was testing us.
But I guarantee a guy with 2500 mixed coins is testing nothing but your patience.
<< <i>
<< <i>Amassing. Don't have time to look at them when the customer is there, but once they leave. Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave. If it is a true bulk in bulk out, the coins shouldn't be sorted at all. Dump them in a bucket and sell them bulk. >>
Store is full of people. Some genius brings in 2500 mixed coins in buckets.
What prevents them from even presorting them beforehand?
Try it a few hundred times and unfortunately you become a little jaded.
Dealers HAVE to sort out everything to fill books etc. The moral of the story is the people can sort stuff a little beforehand/go to the public library etc. Literally we do have people bring in 5 gallon buckets of mixed coins. Small bags etc are cool we can all check/sort those no problem.
Whats funny is 90% of the time if you TRY to be the nice guy and check for dates from buckets o coins they get weird (thinking every coin is a HUGE treasure) and start thinking they should doublecheck you at home to make sure your not screwing them. Its the truth.
and BTW our buy rate is 93-95% of what comes in and there are 6 shops within 20 miles. >>
And how many times have we seen a story where a customer cherrypicks a dearler and these boards go nuts on how that dealer was ripped off. I don't think we can have it both ways. A rip is a rip is a rip. They could require the customer to give them a name and phone number, and if something like this if found they can make it right. Everytime I try to cherrypick mercury dimes for my set I tell the dealer what I want to do and I am willing to pay the vaule of what I find.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Amassing. Don't have time to look at them when the customer is there, but once they leave. Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave. If it is a true bulk in bulk out, the coins shouldn't be sorted at all. Dump them in a bucket and sell them bulk. >>
Store is full of people. Some genius brings in 2500 mixed coins in buckets.
What prevents them from even presorting them beforehand?
Try it a few hundred times and unfortunately you become a little jaded.
Dealers HAVE to sort out everything to fill books etc. The moral of the story is the people can sort stuff a little beforehand/go to the public library etc. Literally we do have people bring in 5 gallon buckets of mixed coins. Small bags etc are cool we can all check/sort those no problem.
Whats funny is 90% of the time if you TRY to be the nice guy and check for dates from buckets o coins they get weird (thinking every coin is a HUGE treasure) and start thinking they should doublecheck you at home to make sure your not screwing them. Its the truth.
and BTW our buy rate is 93-95% of what comes in and there are 6 shops within 20 miles. >>
And how many times have we seen a story where a customer cherrypicks a dearler and these boards go nuts on how that dealer was ripped off. I don't think we can have it both ways. A rip is a rip is a rip. They could require the customer to give them a name and phone number, and if something like this if found they can make it right. Everytime I try to cherrypick mercury dimes for my set I tell the dealer what I want to do and I am willing to pay the vaule of what I find. >>
Dealers pick other dealers a lot also.
I ask some people that come in that I know are more well versed in an area then myself as you cant know it all why they buy a coin. My ike guy taught me about type2 72's a few years ago. ETc.
My philosophy is I bought it, sold it and made money. I'm moving on but getting some knowledge for the next time is more important to me. It's all good. I usually get knowledge for the rip which is more important to me.
BUT
If someone is too lazy to sort things beforehand or care why should we? I'm playing devils advocate and a lot of dealers on this board are going "hell yea, Amen brother" but wont speak up for fear of being blackballed auction wise etc.
<< <i>the part about the jewelry was the part that puzzled me and puts a sort of sad, ironic twist on the whole thing. he had several pairs of earrings that i tried to examine and he wasn't really interested in knowing if they were gold, he just wanted to get an idea of what to give to each of his grand daughters. in fact, after he told me as much the second time i simply handed them to him when it became clear he hadn't intended to sell them as he'd first indicated.
Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave.
see, i knew there would be the guys who think it's just another case of a dealer ripping a customer.
fcloud, you should come to the shop and see the 850,000 Wheat Cents we've bought since Thanksgiving and searched through one coin at a time. >>
OK, now all "airs" aside, I wanna go work where Keets works!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Ben
<< <i>the part about the jewelry was the part that puzzled me and puts a sort of sad, ironic twist on the whole thing. he had several pairs of earrings that i tried to examine and he wasn't really interested in knowing if they were gold, he just wanted to get an idea of what to give to each of his grand daughters. in fact, after he told me as much the second time i simply handed them to him when it became clear he hadn't intended to sell them as he'd first indicated.
Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave.
see, i knew there would be the guys who think it's just another case of a dealer ripping a customer.
fcloud, you should come to the shop and see the 850,000 Wheat Cents we've bought since Thanksgiving and searched through one coin at a time. >>
Al,
Interesting the way you selected only part of my quote. And yes I feel it is the dealers responsibility to make sure they are being fair especially when there is so much the poor dealer got ripped off stuff I see. Maybe a list could be posted so that customers can check for special coins if they choose, and if they choose not to look at least they had a fair chance.
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
As someone stated, a rip is a rip.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
<< <i>Amassing. Don't have time to look at them when the customer is there, but once they leave. Oh goodie goodie, we have a multi thousand dollar coin we paid $2.00 for. Sorry I don't buy the you don't have the time to look until after the customer leave. If it is a true bulk in bulk out, the coins shouldn't be sorted at all. Dump them in a bucket and sell them bulk. >>
I can tell that you've never run a business.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
see, i knew there would be the guys who think it's just another case of a dealer ripping a customer.
>>
I had no doubt this was the way things would go.
I think everyone in the hobby has a right to get lucky sometimes. It's not like they bought
an accumulation or collection of XF barbers for melt; this thing just happened to have sur-
vived unrecognized as a rarity longer than most. Maybe the owner pulled out the high grade
coins from the lot and sold them back in the '60's for three or four dollars each never rea-
lizing the G+ rare date was in the lot. He could have bought a Redbook when he was in the
store for two bucks and then he'd have known. At least Keets knew enough to look it up.
But really Al, I thought everyone knew the '01-S was tough.
<< <i>I can tell that you've never run a business. >>
Precisely!
<< <i>It did not take you to long to start ripping for the boss. He gets 5k and you get 10 bucks a hour. 2 deep with customers and the small amount of coins you got from the old man would take less than 2 minutes to verify MM's. I do give you credit for not putting 2 bucks in the till and keeping it for your self. After reading your post on this site for the last few years i would not have expected this from you, others on here maybe but not you. >>
Jesus H. Christ. Get off your high horse.
Dealers don't have the time to examine every single coin in every single across-the-counter lot before making offers. There aren't enough hours in the day. Yes, if you can tell when first looking at the collection/accumulation that it's a high-end collection with keys, or there are type sets, slabbed material, etc., that's a different matter. But I don't know any dealers that go through bulk common or medium-to-low grade material or melt material other than making spot checks prior to making offers. Going through the coins one by one is left for when the store is empty and there's time.
Spend some time in a coin shop when it's busy someday...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
I can certainly see how this might happen to anyone woking at a fast paced shop counter.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I spent 4 days going through some of this bulk silver and barely scratched the surface. The Kennedy rolls were only spot checked. I didn't even bother with the countless Franklin and Walking Liberty half rolls! There were also Barber Halves, Barber quarters, Standing Liberty quarters and at least 6 rolls of Merc's!
I am certain that there are some nice varieties in there as these were purhased before a lot of these varieties were identified but going through each and every coin would have taken weeks if not a month and this was a single individual! I could only begin to imagine the work involved if this had been 5 or 6 folks!
I can fully understand a dealers perspective of offering bulk and later finding some rarity. Its no different than folks that STILL drop rolls of Morgans, halves, quarters and the like at the bank for face value and then some collector happens across the hoard! Some folks just don't give a hoot about what they've inherited and simply want the cash!
Nice find Al. Have you verified its authenticity?
The name is LEE!
I will not enter the fray of the moral dilema you describe, although I wish had that old man been my father,
or years from now my son, and brought in some coins for a professional's opinion he would have gotten
a fair payment for his long held pieces.
Your story was a wonderful description of your new pursuits and extremely well written. Having read your
posts for a number of years, I would agree with DieClash, that this was probably your best and showed
another side of you. I wish you well in this endeavor.
Regarding how each coin dealer handles bulk lots they purchase, I now have a better appreciation for the
B & M owner I deal with. Bringing him bags of bulk coins I've helped friends liquidate, he would go through
each and every coin for condition & eyeing the mm before figuring up the total. One time about 300 Morgans,
Buffs, Indians & wheats required me to spend a full hour in his shop on a busy day & he paid a higher melt
price than any in the area. If I mentioned his name more than a few of you would possibly know him from
the coin show circuit.
R.I.P. Bear
Very interesting read, well written. Thanks for posting it. I love these kind of stories ....... always interesting to see how little things can make a big difference.
1.5 yrs ago I purchased over 100 lbs of coins locally from a long time collector, along with the large safe. The collection was started by his father back in the 40's. It was full of cigar and other boxes. Coins from the 1700's mixed in with wheat pennies, tokens etc. There was no rhyme nor reason as to how it was organized. They had a business back in the 60's and purchased small collections and just tossed them in the safe. There was no way of knowing what was in there. The seller wanted 25k, after some time, we ended at 20k. The seller had indicated he was sure he had this and that key coin in the bunch ..... never found any of them. Did find a 1916 D Merc he never mentioned though, that's now been authenticated. (The 1901 S Qtr is one of the most counterfeited coins btw) Finally, after about 240 hours of searching dates/varities we're almost finished. All said and done, there is a profit above and beyond paying for our search time, but this was one deal that was strictly bulk ...... whearas I put my azz on line hoping I wouldn't be totally ripped. Moral of the story: Sometimes there just is no way you can do a full search prior to the deal ........ who wants to put in 240 hrs to make an accurate value estimate, and then find out the seller won't sell. Now, I'd never do this kind of a deal with an ebay seller ...... only after sizing someone up in person and knowing where they lived etc. etc., so don't PM me with your great ebay auction of unsearched coins, lol
<< <i>Sometimes there just is no way you can do a full search prior to the deal ........ >>
The price paid should include the risk that it's got nothing but a bunch of culls or maybe a hidden gem.
Some elderly do not have kids, friends to look after them and the general public should not rip them because of it. I am not on a high horse. I guess i am lucky enough to be self employeed for the last 35 years and not have to rip off people to pay my bills.
There was a post on these forums a year ago about CR coins in Haltom City that bought a shoe box full of junk from a guy and after looking thru it the owner of the store found a Cherios dollar and went out of his way to track the guy down to make things right. I thought most dealers required ID to buy coins, at least most that i see do and make a reciept so the uncle gets his cut at the end of the year.
I am sure the old man could have used the extra windfall that he did not realize he had.I hope this does not happen to someone you know.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I also think there is a huge difference between ripping him for a VAM or say a Cheerios dollar, as that requires a specialized level of expertise, which he is not paying for, unless he is paying for an appraisal. But a flat out purchase, the minimum expectation is for you to look at the dates.
I mean where do you draw the line, maybe dont even look at the denominations and just weigh the coins?
Or maybe just buy everything at face. Arguably thats all he would have gotten if he brought it in to the bank, so whats wrong with just paying face? My point is everyone has to draw the line somewhere, and I think looking for dates and mintmarks is what a dealer should be doing when looking to buy your coins, no more no less.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
JJ
I'm guessing the whole shebang was worth $400. An interesting find was a 3 Cent Nickel in F or VF lumped in with some Mercs. I saw an IHC that looked like it had been a roadbed forever, as it had all sorts of junk on its protected areas. It had full liberty & showed 1 1//2 diamonds clearly. It was a 1908. I thought, "what the hell, I might as well flip it over," even though I kNOW it wont be there. To my astonishment, I saw a bold, boxy 'S' below the wreath.
I generated a spreadsheet, cataloging what Don had and returned the coins to him. I also included estimated values for rolls and the few individual items that were worth anything. I mentioned that the most valuable one was the 08 S, then the three center. Don is a gentleman, and as a "thank you," he insisted I keep the 08 S.
I let it sit in olive oil for a week, and with some toothpicks, got rid of 80% of the crud. I need to do this once again and try and get rid of more of it. I'm guessing the coin is a VF 30 or 35.
He came back a bit later, excited about eight "old dollars" he wanted me to see. They were all cast copies, including the 1804, which was a metallic turd. All but one didn't have enough or any silver content. The best fake was a Morgan. Other than the metal content being off and the eagle's head not being quite right, it wasn't bad. It was "a very rare" 1888 CC
Looking through this stuff is a lot of work, and is usually unrewarding. I will try not to do it again. It really isn't a good use of one's time.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Bottom line is you gave someone 2$ for a $2000 coin. Nice heist. Might as well not even told your boss and kept it. >>
thats just wrong...and a window into your soul.
Man decides to sell for some reason. I don't believe he just suddenly remembered he had some coins and need a couple hundred bucks. I believe he always realized the coins were valuable to some degree or he wouldn't have saved them.
Man makes no effort to realize the value of his coins and sells probably to the first shop.
The shop makes an offer the man accepts. Done deal, how is this a "rip"?
Your friends and family protect you along with your motivation to gather knowledge. Why would anyone consider a stranger in a coin shop, or any other venue, to be someone who is responsible for ensuring that your welfare is protected?
The concept of "bulk in, bulk out" is just a way for someone who has sympathy issues to insulate themselves from being the one who "ripped the old man" so that they can gloat over the "great deal" they got later.
I see this bleeding heart attitude often until the middleman is removed.
jim
I have no problem with the way things played out and I understand your side completely. For those that don't think you did the right thing, well, they're never going to be happy until the dealer is only breaking even and eventually has to go out of business.
Dealers are in the business of buying at X and selling for X+profit. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you sell for a loss and sometimes there is a really nice profit. Hopefully, in the long run, there is enough profit to validate staying in business a little longer. That happens in ANY business.
Sounds to me like you had one of those GOOD days. Congrats!
P.S. Let us know if it's a genuine date/mm!
I even found a 1964-D that was labeled type C. I pointed out the mistake to Al and his boss, and explained how to spot a true type c. The coin was promptly removed from stock. I've known Al here for many years now and we've met him numerous times. A nicer fellow is hard to find.
It's a different game behind the counter and from your post, I'd say your boss is one lucky fella to have you working for him. Sell me the junk at spot
<< <i>Bless you Al.
It's a different game behind the counter and from your post, I'd say your boss is one lucky fella to have you working for him. Sell me the junk at spot
Hey, I'm in line first!!