<< <i>Myth, maybe old technology. If a plastic surgeon can smooth out the wrinkles in someone's face without damage or much heat generation, why couldn't a high tech laser smooth out hairlines in metal without damage. >>
Perhaps because skin rejuvenates itself thereby removing the effects of the surgery. These types of surgery require a ceertain amount of healing time. Not only that, but the added makeup works wonders!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I agree with fc... no one has ever been able to produce a lasered coin for display. Having worked in an industry that employed laser cutting, laser etching, and laser welding, I can say that the process does NOT destroy the product - no massive meltdown etc. That being said, lasering always leaves it's own trace... no way proof coins could have their surface lasered and be undetectable. Gaw-rohn-teed. Cheers, RickO
<< <i> IMHO that's because "lasering" is not used to remove hair lines. Some other heat source is used such as a "match" or other "high-temperature torch selectively applied to a specific area." It seems to me that "lasering" has, through common interpretation, become to mean "melting" the "Proof Gold coin hairlines" when it should apply only to "altering the surface of a coin" as described in Dannreuther and Travers Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection.
I don't believe that the "heat source" for altering Proof Gold coins is a "laser", IMHO.
I believe the "laser" is rather used for "sculpting" as one would do with a scalpel for example. I'll bet a "laser" could do a number on a Buffalo Nickel, to turn it into a "hobo" nickel in short order!
It seems to me that "lasering" has become confused with "heat" altering techniques for removing hairlines on Proof Gold specimens. And this form of "doctoring" appears to be ver specifically limited to proof gold coins only.
I tend to be more concerned about Chinese counterfeits than "lasering". But I too am interested in photographic examples, if they exist! >>
Lasers can be used to alter the surface of a coin. Several mints do it. The question is, can hairlines be removed ?
Lasers, however, are no good at sculpting. They are good at cutting out shapes from a sheet of material. Or for cutting lines to make a "2-D" die or design. But they can not cut a 3-D sculpted surface well. The problem is, there is no way to accurately control the depth of cut with a laser. Slight differences in material composition and vaporized material in the path of the beam will affect the cutting rate. And if any part of the beam path overlaps an area already cut, it just cuts deeper, unlike a milling/engraving machine where the cutting bit just passes over areas that were already cut without affecting them.
I agree with fc... no one has ever been able to produce a lasered coin for display.
taken with what went on with MOC this is an interesting quote, since he remains one of the only admitted/caught red-handed CD's at this site. everything else has been nothing but inuendo, accusation, supposition and opinion. in short, only the coin-doctor knows for sure!!!
<< <i> But they can not cut a 3-D sculpted surface well. The problem is, there is no way to accurately control the depth of cut with a laser. Slight differences in material composition and vaporized material in the path of the beam will affect the cutting rate. And if any part of the beam path overlaps an area already cut, it just cuts deeper, unlike a milling/engraving machine where the cutting bit just passes over areas that were already cut without affecting them. >>
Then what is Lasik eye surgery then. I assume Lasik surgery sculpts the surface of the cornea in a precise way to enable better vision.
I mean, are people really expecting a coin doc to show us a picture of a proof classic gold coin "preop" and then show it to us after its "surgery"? Not going to happen. We will see coins that have NOT been altered, and other coins that may have been, but who will know until some experiments are done (perhaps on lesser coins)?
Lasers can be set to bleach out certain colors from fabric or skin, or at least so I have been led to believe, and this does not seem to vaporize either the living tissue or nonliving material. I could see how it might be possible then to "bleach" a coin surface with a laser and if that was possible then wonder what else might be done.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Yes. And when you get your cornea lasered (LASIK) the laser beam comes out of the back of your head and melts the gurney. In fact, it shoots all the way to China. >>
....then it's no wonder the Chinese are ticked off at us....!!
<< <i>I mean, are people really expecting a coin doc to show us a picture of a proof classic gold coin "preop" and then show it to us after its "surgery"? Not going to happen. We will see coins that have NOT been altered, and other coins that may have been, but who will know until some experiments are done (perhaps on lesser coins)?
Lasers can be set to bleach out certain colors from fabric or skin, or at least so I have been led to believe, and this does not seem to vaporize either the living tissue or nonliving material. I could see how it might be possible then to "bleach" a coin surface with a laser and if that was possible then wonder what else might be done. >>
why would an auction house who sells proof gold coins not eventually have a description of a coin that was lasered in a net holder?
why would a person that mentions this topic in print and has stated they have seen the elephant not be able to point out the coin to us in an auction archive database for us to at least look at? They are members here you know.
all i am asking for is a single example that a professional states has been lasered so i can look at the pictures and see the results. for every other doctoring technique this is possible.
tis good the website has such large photos which in the case of this coin are rather reasonable.
i am looking closely at them right now and nothing stands out as a problem area.
can you help me by pointing out an area that was doctored?
In some parts of the photo i can clearly see the orange peel type look of the field surfaces. I am trying to find an area in the photo where this is obviously disturbed or something like that.
I will continue looking.
Also, the obvious question arises, how do you know this coin was lasered? Did someone point you to it? Did you examine it in person?
the coin has many small nicks into its surfaces... it also has a quite a few raised die polish lines in some areas... but nothing is standing out as obvious.
Also it sucks that large parts of the photos suck for viewing the surfaces.
Honestly, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. You asked for a photo and since I examined this coin in person, and because it is so memorable, I was able to easily provide the photo.
<< <i>I agree with fc... no one has ever been able to produce a lasered coin for display.
taken with what went on with MOC this is an interesting quote, since he remains one of the only admitted/caught red-handed CD's at this site. everything else has been nothing but inuendo, accusation, supposition and opinion. in short, only the coin-doctor knows for sure!!! >>
I don't have to read anymore, this is the best statement. If you knew how to turn a Proof 62 into a 66/67 using a laser, would you let everyone know about it and post pictures?
Beat me too the punch...maybe high-tech lasering coins is such that it is either virtually undectable or flat out undetectable. A hazy shade of gray...something doesn't quite look right, but for all intents and purposes nothing looks wrong either. Slab it Danno!
My question is who would be proficient in lasering techniques and have access to such equipment? Not your run-of-the-mill Joe Barstool.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage. ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>"As more and more coins get "conserved," the premiums for beautiful, natural, original toning will increase. >>
Oh, if it were only true. In the years that I've been collecting, the notion that a original surface is desireable has been repeated constantly, yet unless a coin is one of the very few with beautiful, truly original toning, it seems that it's a lot more important to preserve the "original skin" when the coin belongs to someone else than it does when you own the brown, streaky, unatrractive turd. I think as collectors, we need to answer truthfully to some questions...Is an original, drab toned coin really more desireable to us than a coin that's had the unattractive traits removed before being "naturally toned" again? How many ugly, 100% natural coins do you have in your collection and do you really put a premium on them because of this "natural skin". I'm all for putting a premium on any original coin, but unfortunately the market, as set by not only collectors but also by dealers of all levels, does not support this idea.
Lester, Lester, Lester.........................what we're talking about would require someone to take an already made Promotional wooden coin and, using a laser, return it to the state of being a round, flat, smooth piece of wood. when that can be done i might start to believe it could be done with coins as described by the believers replying here.
If I'm not mistaken, in 2003 the US Mint National Wildlife Refuge System Silver Medals where struck using some kind of laser technology. Not sure though.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
AL, certainly you must have missed the linked coin by disruptek. He has provided lots of proof other than he has seen the coin. It's certified by ANACS. But no mention of lasering other than by him. That's proof enough, isn't it?
<< <i>AL, certainly you must have missed the linked coin by disruptek. He has provided lots of proof other than he has seen the coin. It's certified by ANACS. But no mention of lasering other than by him. That's proof enough, isn't it? >>
As I did not perform the lasering, I'm not sure what kind of proof you are expecting, but I expect that you will remain disappointed.
Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting.
I remember it was at one time widely rumored (and I strongly emphasize rumored) that the famous gold collection of the late Ed Trompeter had several very expensive $10 and $20 gold proofs that had been lasered to conceal hairlines.
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already.
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already. >>
I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my comment regarding the attitudes of board members towards participatory dealers. I'm not an auctioneer, I'm not doctoring coins, I'm not a grading service, and I'm not trying to sell lasered proof gold. Someone asked for a photo of a lasered coin and I provided one. If you think auction houses don't sell doctored coins, you're deluding yourself.
Is it so hard to accept that a dealer viewing a coin in-hand may have an advantage over a collector viewing a scan of a coin online? That the playing field will never be level so long as coins are unique and grading services imperfect?
With respect to your comments, again, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. I do believe that the ethical problem of accepting material of varied tampering is more thorny than it appears. Remember that if an auction house accepts a coin on consignment, their obligation is to both the buyer and the seller. Should they trust the opinion of PCGS or NGC? Should they privately audit every slabbed coin that they offer for sale? Where should they draw the line on tampering? What if they overlook a doctored coin but are alerted to the fact post-production? Should they pull the lot? This is clearly a slippery slope.
Do we really want another football on the holders to indicate which coins are authenticated and graded correctly, as well as undoctored?
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already. >>
I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my comment regarding the attitudes of board members towards participatory dealers. I'm not an auctioneer, I'm not doctoring coins, I'm not a grading service, and I'm not trying to sell lasered proof gold. Someone asked for a photo of a lasered coin and I provided one. If you think auction houses don't sell doctored coins, you're deluding yourself.
Is it so hard to accept that a dealer viewing a coin in-hand may have an advantage over a collector viewing a scan of a coin online? That the playing field will never be level so long as coins are unique and grading services imperfect?
With respect to your comments, again, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. I do believe that the ethical problem of accepting material of varied tampering is more thorny than it appears. Remember that if an auction house accepts a coin on consignment, their obligation is to both the buyer and the seller. Should they trust the opinion of PCGS or NGC? Should they privately audit every slabbed coin that they offer for sale? Where should they draw the line on tampering? What if they overlook a doctored coin but are alerted to the fact post-production? Should they pull the lot? This is clearly a slippery slope.
Do we really want another football on the holders to indicate which coins are authenticated and graded correctly, as well as undoctored? >>
You make excellent points, disruptek, all of them. Ignore the few who do not care to learn and just want to throw tomatoes.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I fear that the person who states....'this is a lasered coin and this is the type of equipment that it takes to do it and this is how it's done and these were my practice coins' is going to be the recipient of a whole lot of arrows.
So it's probably best not to expect a lot of inside info. I would say that most of the opportunists do not appreciate getting caught.
on this matter, I know nothing. respectfully yours...SGT. Schultz
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already. >>
I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my comment regarding the attitudes of board members towards participatory dealers. I'm not an auctioneer, I'm not doctoring coins, I'm not a grading service, and I'm not trying to sell lasered proof gold. Someone asked for a photo of a lasered coin and I provided one. If you think auction houses don't sell doctored coins, you're deluding yourself. >>
First of all, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. I was just trying to offer an explanation of why there may seem to be such an attitude toward dealers within the context of this thread. I'm fully aware that auction houses sell doctored coins. Every white 19th century non-Morgan silver coin will tell you that, but having a leading auction house not disclose a problem that is apparently well-known but less obvious seems uncomely.
<< <i>Is it so hard to accept that a dealer viewing a coin in-hand may have an advantage over a collector viewing a scan of a coin online? That the playing field will never be level so long as coins are unique and grading services imperfect? >>
Not at all. This is why I'd have someone I trust look at a coin for me if I can't do it myself when there's that kind of money involved.
<< <i>With respect to your comments, again, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. I do believe that the ethical problem of accepting material of varied tampering is more thorny than it appears. Remember that if an auction house accepts a coin on consignment, their obligation is to both the buyer and the seller. Should they trust the opinion of PCGS or NGC? Should they privately audit every slabbed coin that they offer for sale? Where should they draw the line on tampering? What if they overlook a doctored coin but are alerted to the fact post-production? Should they pull the lot? This is clearly a slippery slope. >>
I agree that their photo isn't going to reveal a laser job, but if they look at a coin closely enough to be able to write a good description, they should be able to see something that's not right, especially in a series with a propensity for those problems. As for when to pull a lot due to doctoring, one could also ask when not to pull a lot due to not enough doctoring. For the coin in question, it seems that it's known to have been doctored but is still being accepted by auction companies. Seems that sooner or later one of them would say, "basta," and not accept it for consignment.
<< <i>Do we really want another football on the holders to indicate which coins are authenticated and graded correctly, as well as undoctored? >>
Watch a video of a coin being etched via a laser. http://digg.com/video/laser-etch-coin
This was submitted to reddit 7 months ago. Please note this is removing metal. Literally burning it away. The laser
jumps around a lot so one area does not get too hot.
One result when searching ha.com for laser, lasered, etc... after all these years. And if that is a laser job boy does it suck. Even the blurb uses the word laser in the form of a question. I spent an hour or so trying to track down a previous sale with pics with no luck. Looks like jeweler could have done the job with his usual tools. No laser required.
There was a lawsuit by PCGS against some submitters around 2010. Accused of doctoring coins and mentions lasering. Thrown out by the judge. Last part I found was them possibly counter suing PCGS. Most here know nothing
came out of that which was helpful to this thread. BTW.. they can still submit. cough cough.
A google search for lasering proof gold.. brings up this very thread as the first result. Not helpful ;-)
Another thought I had was to track down the first mention of lasering a coin. 2000ish is where I get to. I wish I knew
what was state of the art back then. Computer power was pretty decent for controlling a laser but were things
advanced enough to even be able to do it back then at a price point that made sense. Using a ?15? million dollar
setup to get an ROI on doctoring coins would be pretty tough. Like you would have to doctor a sizable amount of
coins due to lower prices back then.
Modern picture taking has come a long long ways. Even in 2009 we could take super close up pics. Capturing an area
of a coin's field that was lasered versus an area millimeters away that was not lasered should be child's play now days.
Thus.. does anyone have new info to help solve this puzzle? This numismatic old wive's tale told around the table
and spread far and wide by coin experts who knew next to nothing about lasers and their capabilities circa 1999 to 2005?
Interesting to see this old thread resurface.... and still no evidence that coins with hairlines can have them removed by laser. As I stated back in 2009, I worked in an industry that used lasers to weld, cut, engrave metal...it always leaves a trace. That being said, if the coin were totally imaged into the laser memory, and the ENTIRE surface processed, it may pass a casual view.... It would not pass a study with magnification. Cheers, RickO
Sometime this year, I posted in a discussion that I have seen many "Lasered" coins and would find an image. I do not have any "before" images as I was not there. To be honest, I didn't bother to look yet because it is going to be hard to show. That's because some things that are very obvious don't image well. BTW, the reverse is also true. Some things we don't see with magnification jump out in a simple black and white micrograph - go figure.
There is no myth to this type of alteration.
THIS IS 100% TRUE:
Several years ago, mirror Proof gold coins with a "smoothed" altered surface began to appear at the TPGS. As usually happens when a "new" alteration appears, it is not detected immediately! Example: Embossed Mintmarks.
So far, I have only seen gold coins with this alteration.
The alteration is easily detected with florescent light and a stereomicroscope as the surface is obviously changed.
Sometimes only parts of the surface are treated.
This alteration was believed to be done using a laser and so named by someone at a TPGS.
Whatever method is used, it destroys the "orange peel!"
Having not seen it done, I don't know the method. Is a laser used? Probably. About seven years ago I called a jeweler in St. Pete, FL who uses a laser to smooth the surface of gold jewelry. He invited me to come in for a demonstration. Since the alteration was easy for me to detect, I never went.
@Insider2 said:
Sometime this year, I posted in a discussion that I have seen many "Lasered" coins and would find an image. I do not have any "before" images as I was not there. To be honest, I didn't bother to look yet because it is going to be hard to show. That's because some things that are very obvious don't image well. BTW, the reverse is also true. Some things we don't see with magnification jump out in a simple black and white micrograph - go figure.
There is no myth to this type of alteration.
THIS IS 100% TRUE:
Several years ago, mirror Proof gold coins with a "smoothed" altered surface began to appear at the TPGS. As usually happens when a "new" alteration appears, it is not detected immediately! Example: Embossed Mintmarks.
So far, I have only seen gold coins with this alteration.
The alteration is easily detected with florescent light and a stereomicroscope as the surface is obviously changed.
Sometimes only parts of the surface are treated.
This alteration was believed to be done using a laser and so named by someone at a TPGS.
Whatever method is used, it destroys the "orange peel!"
Having not seen it done, I don't know the method. Is a laser used? Probably. About seven years ago I called a jeweler in St. Pete, FL who uses a laser to smooth the surface of gold jewelry. He invited me to come in for a demonstration. Since the alteration was easy for me to detect, I never went.
Thank you for the reply.
I understand it is hard to show things with pictures. We have been through this multiple times. But if you want to show something specifically with pictures it is possible. Like showing a lasered field from multiple angles with included non lasered areas surrounding it. One would see the differences at magnification. It may takes a special
person to take those pictures but I think it is possible.
Yes. I have seen the term "smoothed" over the years. It is a catch all more or less for working a coin's surfaces.
It does not matter how it was done. They just labeled it as "smoothed". TPGs actually put that on the label of graded
coins.
I agree the orange peel would be ruined. If not the coin doctor can actually shape and sculpture the surface of the
coin which would be quite amazing with a laser that actually melts/burns/destroys the metal.
And in 2002 someone was using laser tech to smooth a coin's surfaces? Something does not seem right here.
What you are proposing is literally using a laser that is so finely tuned to just melt the first minuscule top layer
of a coin's surface.. getting it just hot enough to not remove metal.. but to make it smooth out. Like a Zamboni
going over the surface of an ice rink. And not only that doing it with 15 year old plus technology.
So everything you posted is exactly what people have been saying for years now. It sounds quite believable. The
only problem is that we have absolutely no proof what so ever it has been done. If you watch youtube video after
youtube video of techs using lasers on metal (in the yeat 2018 mind you, not 2003 tech) you would quickly realize
that lasering a small area of the field would stand out like a sore thumb compared to the other areas. In my
humble opinion as of right now.
After all.. the point of this thread is for someone to explain to doubters how wrong we are. That a laser can
manipulate the surfaces of a coin to get past a TPG back in the 2000-2003 era of coin grading.
So.....to summarize: No one has a photo of a laser being used to "improve" a coin or hide blemishes. No before and after images. Others suggest some sources of heat were/could be used. OK, show the photos. Some even appear to claim that "it can't be photographed," or have other excuses. Possibly one thing has been misnamed for another much like the false use of "sintered."
Let's see....no examples, no photos, no practitioners, no clarity in how this could be done --- nothing. Hmmmm - Sounds perfect !
@fc said: "Yes. I have seen the term "smoothed" over the years. It is a catch all more or less for working a coin's surfaces. It does not matter how it was done. They just labeled it as "smoothed". TPGs actually put that on the label of graded coins."
"Smoothed" is a "typical weasel term" appropriated by those "Johnny-come-lately" young numismatists and auction houses who wish to downplay a SIGNIFICANT alteration to a coin. There is no such thing as a smoothed coin! They are "tooled" or "burnished" to remove defects and corrosion. I believe this nonsense started with ancient coins. This is similar to calling severely corroded coins "sea water surface." LOL.
"I agree the orange peel would be ruined."
There IS NO IF NOT! This is not an opinion. The surface is ruined.
"A jeweler uses laser welding. They fix cracks, add metal, etc.. and then use traditional methods to blend it in."
Then this may be the correct name and method.
"What you are proposing...:
I HAVE PROPOSED NOTHING. I have only said that someone attached the word "lasered" to altered surface coin's with a particular "smoothed" look.
"So everything you posted is exactly what people have been saying for years now. It sounds quite believable. The
only problem is that we have absolutely no proof what so ever it has been done."
I believe this is exactly what I posted.
"If you watch youtube video of techs using lasers on metal (in the yeat 2018 mind you, not 2003 tech) you would quickly realize that lasering a small area of the field would stand out like a sore thumb compared to the other areas. In my humble opinion as of right now."
Please read my post again. I have NEVER had any difficulty detecting what has been called a lasered surface. As you posted it is OBVIOUS to anyone who knows what a natural surface looks like.
"After all.. the point of this thread is for someone to explain to doubters how wrong we are. That a laser can
manipulate the surfaces of a coin to get past a TPG back in the 2000-2003 era of coin grading."
100% fact: Lasered coins have been slabbed by TPGS's long after 2003; however, IMO it should be virtually impossible to get one to pass as unaltered these days.
@RogerB said:
So.....to summarize: No one has a photo of a laser being used to "improve" a coin or hide blemishes. No before and after images. Others suggest some sources of heat were/could be used. OK, show the photos. Some even appear to claim that "it can't be photographed," or have other excuses. Possibly one thing has been misnamed for another much like the false use of "sintered."
Let's see....no examples, no photos, no practitioners, no clarity in how this could be done --- nothing. Hmmmm - Sounds perfect !
The interesting thing is if you google properly you will see that it could very well be possible now days. A lot of
research by academia and corporations have gone into laser control, overlapping of passes, etc.. to do it now days.
But this research, papers I found by universities, are circa 2010-2013. We need this tech available in the 2003 time
range when lasering came about and was detected. Definitely before 2006.
A lot has changed since then when it comes to manipulating metals for certain industries. The costs have come way
down. But if in 2013 they were still working on issues... people were doing it to coins in 2003 era? Really?
@RogerB said:
So.....to summarize: No one has a photo of a laser being used to "improve" a coin or hide blemishes. No before and after images. Others suggest some sources of heat were/could be used. OK, show the photos. Some even appear to claim that "it can't be photographed," or have other excuses. Possibly one thing has been misnamed for another much like the false use of "sintered."
Let's see....no examples, no photos, no practitioners, no clarity in how this could be done --- nothing. Hmmmm - Sounds perfect !
Not correct: I have several images of lasered surface Proofs. They can be imaged, in fact they look just like a polished coin. What I wrote was it is difficult to reproduce (BECAUSE THEY LOOK JUST AS A POLISHED COIN). Additionally, most folks would not know what the heck they were looking at!
Eventually I will find one of my images. A simple internet search of Proof Liberty $20 will possibly show one.
@RogerB said:
RE: "Not correct: I have several images of lasered surface Proofs."
Post them for all to learn from. Be sure to tell how it can be detected.
The detection part I do not think is in question. Under magnification you would see the changes compared to unaltered areas.
The question seems to be the techniques used to smooth the coin and if there was ever a laser used to do it. Circa
2003-2004. I am going to guess someone with a lot of skill working with metals was employed to do it manually and
more then likely a heat source was involved. Could the heat have been a laser? Or was the laser the only method
used and the heat literally caused hairlines to fill back in and smooth out? That would take some serious control of
the laser. Like scratching ice and using your finger to heat up the surface near the scratches causing the ice to melt
and re-flow into the indentations. Then refreezing it.
After all these years I would have thought a website by an expert would finally show high res/magnified pics of this
doctoring. That is what bothers me. Coin people love their pictures of the tiniest details of coins.
Nice to see all this input. However, lasering alters the surface. BUT IT DOES NOT MATCH ORIGINAL SURFACES AS STRUCK. Always detectable in my opinion. Matching existing surfaces would be impossible.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
Comments
I should have set it on LOW instead of HIGH
GrandAm
<< <i>Coin dealer, attorney AND scientist. What doesn't Frank know about?
I have a science degree.
Here's a typical laster on metal.
Link
To suggest that this could remove hairlines or engrave full bell lines (even through a slab, as some tales go) is ridiculous.
<< <i>Myth, maybe old technology. If a plastic surgeon can smooth out the wrinkles in someone's face without damage or much heat generation, why couldn't a high tech laser smooth out hairlines in metal without damage. >>
Perhaps because skin rejuvenates itself thereby removing the effects of the surgery. These types of surgery require a ceertain amount of healing time. Not only that, but the added makeup works wonders!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
IMHO that's because "lasering" is not used to remove hair lines. Some other heat source is used such as a "match" or other "high-temperature torch selectively applied to a specific area." It seems to me that "lasering" has, through common interpretation, become to mean "melting" the "Proof Gold coin hairlines" when it should apply only to "altering the surface of a coin" as described in Dannreuther and Travers Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection.
I don't believe that the "heat source" for altering Proof Gold coins is a "laser", IMHO.
I believe the "laser" is rather used for "sculpting" as one would do with a scalpel for example. I'll bet a "laser" could do a number on a Buffalo Nickel, to turn it into a "hobo" nickel in short order!
It seems to me that "lasering" has become confused with "heat" altering techniques for removing hairlines on Proof Gold specimens. And this form of "doctoring" appears to be ver specifically limited to proof gold coins only.
I tend to be more concerned about Chinese counterfeits than "lasering". But I too am interested in photographic examples, if they exist! >>
Lasers can be used to alter the surface of a coin. Several mints do it. The question is, can hairlines be removed ?
Lasers, however, are no good at sculpting. They are good at cutting out shapes from a sheet of material. Or for cutting lines to make a "2-D" die or design. But they can not cut a 3-D sculpted surface well. The problem is, there is no way to accurately control the depth of cut with a laser. Slight differences in material composition and vaporized material in the path of the beam will affect the cutting rate. And if any part of the beam path overlaps an area already cut, it just cuts deeper, unlike a milling/engraving machine where the cutting bit just passes over areas that were already cut without affecting them.
taken with what went on with MOC this is an interesting quote, since he remains one of the only admitted/caught red-handed CD's at this site. everything else has been nothing but inuendo, accusation, supposition and opinion. in short, only the coin-doctor knows for sure!!!
<< <i> But they can not cut a 3-D sculpted surface well. The problem is, there is no way to accurately control the depth of cut with a laser. Slight differences in material composition and vaporized material in the path of the beam will affect the cutting rate. And if any part of the beam path overlaps an area already cut, it just cuts deeper, unlike a milling/engraving machine where the cutting bit just passes over areas that were already cut without affecting them. >>
Then what is Lasik eye surgery then. I assume Lasik surgery sculpts the surface of the cornea in a precise way to enable better vision.
Lasers can be set to bleach out certain colors from fabric or skin, or at least so I have been led to believe, and this does not seem to vaporize either the living tissue or nonliving material. I could see how it might be possible then to "bleach" a coin surface with a laser and if that was possible then wonder what else might be done.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Yes. And when you get your cornea lasered (LASIK) the laser beam comes out of the back of your head and melts the gurney. In fact, it shoots all the way to China. >>
<< <i>I mean, are people really expecting a coin doc to show us a picture of a proof classic gold coin "preop" and then show it to us after its "surgery"? Not going to happen. We will see coins that have NOT been altered, and other coins that may have been, but who will know until some experiments are done (perhaps on lesser coins)?
Lasers can be set to bleach out certain colors from fabric or skin, or at least so I have been led to believe, and this does not seem to vaporize either the living tissue or nonliving material. I could see how it might be possible then to "bleach" a coin surface with a laser and if that was possible then wonder what else might be done. >>
why would an auction house who sells proof gold coins not eventually have
a description of a coin that was lasered in a net holder?
why would a person that mentions this topic in print and has stated they have seen the
elephant not be able to point out the coin to us in an auction archive database for
us to at least look at? They are members here you know.
all i am asking for is a single example that a professional states has been lasered so
i can look at the pictures and see the results. for every other doctoring technique
this is possible.
Lasered coin white paper
<< <i>Can anyone show me a picture of a coin that was lasered? >>
Link to a lasered 1904 $10 ANACS PR64CA that has been kicking around the boxes in various auctions...
877-DISRPTK
<< <i>
<< <i>Can anyone show me a picture of a coin that was lasered? >>
Link to a lasered 1904 $10 ANACS PR64CA that has been kicking around the boxes in various auctions... >>
tis good the website has such large photos which in the case of this
coin are rather reasonable.
i am looking closely at them right now and nothing stands out as a
problem area.
can you help me by pointing out an area that was doctored?
In some parts of the photo i can clearly see the orange peel type look
of the field surfaces. I am trying to find an area in the photo where
this is obviously disturbed or something like that.
I will continue looking.
Also, the obvious question arises, how do you know this coin was
lasered? Did someone point you to it? Did you examine it in person?
Details if you can please.
a few raised die polish lines in some areas... but nothing is standing out as obvious.
Also it sucks that large parts of the photos suck for viewing the surfaces.
877-DISRPTK
.........................From this evidence surface damage appears to have been minimal, and the treatment very successful.
evidentally "lasering" causes noticeable damage, right??
<< <i>I agree with fc... no one has ever been able to produce a lasered coin for display.
taken with what went on with MOC this is an interesting quote, since he remains one of the only admitted/caught red-handed CD's at this site. everything else has been nothing but inuendo, accusation, supposition and opinion. in short, only the coin-doctor knows for sure!!! >>
I don't have to read anymore, this is the best statement. If you knew how to turn a Proof 62 into a 66/67 using a laser, would you let everyone know about it and post pictures?
<< <i>Lasered coin white paper
.........................From this evidence surface damage appears to have been minimal, and the treatment very successful.
evidentally "lasering" causes noticeable damage, right??
Beat me too the punch...maybe high-tech lasering coins is such that it is either virtually undectable or flat out undetectable. A hazy shade of gray...something doesn't quite look right, but for all intents and purposes nothing looks wrong either. Slab it Danno!
My question is who would be proficient in lasering techniques and have access to such equipment? Not your run-of-the-mill Joe Barstool.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>"As more and more coins get "conserved," the premiums for beautiful, natural, original toning will increase. >>
Oh, if it were only true. In the years that I've been collecting, the notion that a original surface is desireable has been repeated constantly, yet unless a coin is one of the very few with beautiful, truly original toning, it seems that it's a lot more important to preserve the "original skin" when the coin belongs to someone else than it does when you own the brown, streaky, unatrractive turd. I think as collectors, we need to answer truthfully to some questions...Is an original, drab toned coin really more desireable to us than a coin that's had the unattractive traits removed before being "naturally toned" again? How many ugly, 100% natural coins do you have in your collection and do you really put a premium on them because of this "natural skin". I'm all for putting a premium on any original coin, but unfortunately the market, as set by not only collectors but also by dealers of all levels, does not support this idea.
RCM coin and award
<< <i>any pictures of lasered coins yet?? >>
AL, certainly you must have missed the linked coin by disruptek. He has provided lots of proof other than he has seen the coin. It's certified by ANACS. But no mention of lasering other than by him. That's proof enough, isn't it?
<< <i>AL, certainly you must have missed the linked coin by disruptek. He has provided lots of proof other than he has seen the coin. It's certified by ANACS. But no mention of lasering other than by him. That's proof enough, isn't it?
As I did not perform the lasering, I'm not sure what kind of proof you are expecting, but I expect that you will remain disappointed.
Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting.
877-DISRPTK
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already. >>
I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my comment regarding the attitudes of board members towards participatory dealers. I'm not an auctioneer, I'm not doctoring coins, I'm not a grading service, and I'm not trying to sell lasered proof gold. Someone asked for a photo of a lasered coin and I provided one. If you think auction houses don't sell doctored coins, you're deluding yourself.
Is it so hard to accept that a dealer viewing a coin in-hand may have an advantage over a collector viewing a scan of a coin online? That the playing field will never be level so long as coins are unique and grading services imperfect?
With respect to your comments, again, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. I do believe that the ethical problem of accepting material of varied tampering is more thorny than it appears. Remember that if an auction house accepts a coin on consignment, their obligation is to both the buyer and the seller. Should they trust the opinion of PCGS or NGC? Should they privately audit every slabbed coin that they offer for sale? Where should they draw the line on tampering? What if they overlook a doctored coin but are alerted to the fact post-production? Should they pull the lot? This is clearly a slippery slope.
Do we really want another football on the holders to indicate which coins are authenticated and graded correctly, as well as undoctored?
877-DISRPTK
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already. >>
I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my comment regarding the attitudes of board members towards participatory dealers. I'm not an auctioneer, I'm not doctoring coins, I'm not a grading service, and I'm not trying to sell lasered proof gold. Someone asked for a photo of a lasered coin and I provided one. If you think auction houses don't sell doctored coins, you're deluding yourself.
Is it so hard to accept that a dealer viewing a coin in-hand may have an advantage over a collector viewing a scan of a coin online? That the playing field will never be level so long as coins are unique and grading services imperfect?
With respect to your comments, again, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. I do believe that the ethical problem of accepting material of varied tampering is more thorny than it appears. Remember that if an auction house accepts a coin on consignment, their obligation is to both the buyer and the seller. Should they trust the opinion of PCGS or NGC? Should they privately audit every slabbed coin that they offer for sale? Where should they draw the line on tampering? What if they overlook a doctored coin but are alerted to the fact post-production? Should they pull the lot? This is clearly a slippery slope.
Do we really want another football on the holders to indicate which coins are authenticated and graded correctly, as well as undoctored? >>
You make excellent points, disruptek, all of them. Ignore the few who do not care to learn and just want to throw tomatoes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
So it's probably best not to expect a lot of inside info. I would say that most of the opportunists do not appreciate getting caught.
on this matter, I know nothing.
respectfully yours...SGT. Schultz
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Honestly, I do not understand the attitude expressed towards dealers by some members of this board. It is truly off-putting. >>
Perhaps, but consider just the context of lasering coins for the moment. This board is made up mostly of collectors. We hear of and occasionally see evidence of coin doctors screwing with coins by various means including blasting them with a laser so they can game the system and take more money out of our pockets. We hear prominent dealers talk, sometimes loudly with without regard to proper language usage, about going after and outing these people. We hear talk about TPGs cracking down on them. And yet, you just pointed out a coin that you said had been whored around among auctions that you, and I assume others, knew was lasered, but that Heritage let sell for $14K without feeling the need to mention it. Now, if I were to be in the market for a proof $10 Lib., I'd like to think I'd be able to trust Heritage's description, and perhaps get an honest opinion over the phone were I inclined to call them, but evidence seems to point to the contrary. And I like Heritage! That is off-putting.
Mark has offered (and herewith so do I) to shoot microphotographs of lasered coin diagnostics. It doesn't have to be a $14K proof $10 Lib., it can be a 1/10 oz proof AGE. Pity I can't go to a specialist dealer or TPG website and find these pictures already. >>
I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my comment regarding the attitudes of board members towards participatory dealers. I'm not an auctioneer, I'm not doctoring coins, I'm not a grading service, and I'm not trying to sell lasered proof gold. Someone asked for a photo of a lasered coin and I provided one. If you think auction houses don't sell doctored coins, you're deluding yourself. >>
First of all, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. I was just trying to offer an explanation of why there may seem to be such an attitude toward dealers within the context of this thread. I'm fully aware that auction houses sell doctored coins. Every white 19th century non-Morgan silver coin will tell you that, but having a leading auction house not disclose a problem that is apparently well-known but less obvious seems uncomely.
<< <i>Is it so hard to accept that a dealer viewing a coin in-hand may have an advantage over a collector viewing a scan of a coin online? That the playing field will never be level so long as coins are unique and grading services imperfect? >>
Not at all. This is why I'd have someone I trust look at a coin for me if I can't do it myself when there's that kind of money involved.
<< <i>With respect to your comments, again, I don't believe a good laser job is visible from an auction photo. I do believe that the ethical problem of accepting material of varied tampering is more thorny than it appears. Remember that if an auction house accepts a coin on consignment, their obligation is to both the buyer and the seller. Should they trust the opinion of PCGS or NGC? Should they privately audit every slabbed coin that they offer for sale? Where should they draw the line on tampering? What if they overlook a doctored coin but are alerted to the fact post-production? Should they pull the lot? This is clearly a slippery slope. >>
I agree that their photo isn't going to reveal a laser job, but if they look at a coin closely enough to be able to write a good description, they should be able to see something that's not right, especially in a series with a propensity for those problems. As for when to pull a lot due to doctoring, one could also ask when not to pull a lot due to not enough doctoring. For the coin in question, it seems that it's known to have been doctored but is still being accepted by auction companies. Seems that sooner or later one of them would say, "basta," and not accept it for consignment.
<< <i>Do we really want another football on the holders to indicate which coins are authenticated and graded correctly, as well as undoctored? >>
I thought the first football was for that.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>You make excellent points, disruptek, all of them. Ignore the few who do not care to learn and just want to throw tomatoes. >>
People that throw "maters" should be lynched. I like "maters."
Watch a video of a coin being etched via a laser. http://digg.com/video/laser-etch-coin
This was submitted to reddit 7 months ago. Please note this is removing metal. Literally burning it away. The laser
jumps around a lot so one area does not get too hot.
Coin cleaning with laser light:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZT0vDpTag
Keep in mind this is burning away organic material, dirt, etc... not really removing any metal.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-eagles/eagles/1904-10-altered-surface-ncs-proof/a/1154-6714.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
One result when searching ha.com for laser, lasered, etc... after all these years. And if that is a laser job boy does it suck. Even the blurb uses the word laser in the form of a question. I spent an hour or so trying to track down a previous sale with pics with no luck. Looks like jeweler could have done the job with his usual tools. No laser required.
There was a lawsuit by PCGS against some submitters around 2010. Accused of doctoring coins and mentions lasering. Thrown out by the judge. Last part I found was them possibly counter suing PCGS. Most here know nothing
came out of that which was helpful to this thread. BTW.. they can still submit. cough cough.
http://www.usrarecoininvestments.com/coin_articles/federal_lawsuit_againts_coin_doctors_by_pcgs.htm
http://www.numismaticnews.net/article/defendants_turn_tables_in_new_suit
A google search for lasering proof gold.. brings up this very thread as the first result. Not helpful ;-)
Another thought I had was to track down the first mention of lasering a coin. 2000ish is where I get to. I wish I knew
what was state of the art back then. Computer power was pretty decent for controlling a laser but were things
advanced enough to even be able to do it back then at a price point that made sense. Using a ?15? million dollar
setup to get an ROI on doctoring coins would be pretty tough. Like you would have to doctor a sizable amount of
coins due to lower prices back then.
In 1996 lasering was not a thing yet in coin slang: http://malakoff.com/cms.htm
Modern picture taking has come a long long ways. Even in 2009 we could take super close up pics. Capturing an area
of a coin's field that was lasered versus an area millimeters away that was not lasered should be child's play now days.
Thus.. does anyone have new info to help solve this puzzle? This numismatic old wive's tale told around the table
and spread far and wide by coin experts who knew next to nothing about lasers and their capabilities circa 1999 to 2005?
Interesting to see this old thread resurface.... and still no evidence that coins with hairlines can have them removed by laser. As I stated back in 2009, I worked in an industry that used lasers to weld, cut, engrave metal...it always leaves a trace. That being said, if the coin were totally imaged into the laser memory, and the ENTIRE surface processed, it may pass a casual view.... It would not pass a study with magnification. Cheers, RickO
Sometime this year, I posted in a discussion that I have seen many "Lasered" coins and would find an image. I do not have any "before" images as I was not there. To be honest, I didn't bother to look yet because it is going to be hard to show. That's because some things that are very obvious don't image well. BTW, the reverse is also true. Some things we don't see with magnification jump out in a simple black and white micrograph - go figure.
There is no myth to this type of alteration.
THIS IS 100% TRUE:
Several years ago, mirror Proof gold coins with a "smoothed" altered surface began to appear at the TPGS. As usually happens when a "new" alteration appears, it is not detected immediately! Example: Embossed Mintmarks.
So far, I have only seen gold coins with this alteration.
The alteration is easily detected with florescent light and a stereomicroscope as the surface is obviously changed.
Sometimes only parts of the surface are treated.
This alteration was believed to be done using a laser and so named by someone at a TPGS.
Whatever method is used, it destroys the "orange peel!"
Having not seen it done, I don't know the method. Is a laser used? Probably. About seven years ago I called a jeweler in St. Pete, FL who uses a laser to smooth the surface of gold jewelry. He invited me to come in for a demonstration. Since the alteration was easy for me to detect, I never went.
Thank you for the reply.
I understand it is hard to show things with pictures. We have been through this multiple times. But if you want to show something specifically with pictures it is possible. Like showing a lasered field from multiple angles with included non lasered areas surrounding it. One would see the differences at magnification. It may takes a special
person to take those pictures but I think it is possible.
Yes. I have seen the term "smoothed" over the years. It is a catch all more or less for working a coin's surfaces.
It does not matter how it was done. They just labeled it as "smoothed". TPGs actually put that on the label of graded
coins.
I agree the orange peel would be ruined. If not the coin doctor can actually shape and sculpture the surface of the
coin which would be quite amazing with a laser that actually melts/burns/destroys the metal.
A jeweler uses laser welding. They fix cracks, add metal, etc.. and then use traditional methods to blend it in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45-79AwPl0
Literally jewelers are just getting around to using the tech and still figuring it out.
https://www.ganoksin.com/article/art-laser-welding/
Companies are to this day actively investing and working on gear that will be used in their industry.
https://www.elettrolaser.com/cms/en/blog/348-smooth-spot-technology.html
And in 2002 someone was using laser tech to smooth a coin's surfaces? Something does not seem right here.
What you are proposing is literally using a laser that is so finely tuned to just melt the first minuscule top layer
of a coin's surface.. getting it just hot enough to not remove metal.. but to make it smooth out. Like a Zamboni
going over the surface of an ice rink. And not only that doing it with 15 year old plus technology.
So everything you posted is exactly what people have been saying for years now. It sounds quite believable. The
only problem is that we have absolutely no proof what so ever it has been done. If you watch youtube video after
youtube video of techs using lasers on metal (in the yeat 2018 mind you, not 2003 tech) you would quickly realize
that lasering a small area of the field would stand out like a sore thumb compared to the other areas. In my
humble opinion as of right now.
After all.. the point of this thread is for someone to explain to doubters how wrong we are. That a laser can
manipulate the surfaces of a coin to get past a TPG back in the 2000-2003 era of coin grading.
So.....to summarize: No one has a photo of a laser being used to "improve" a coin or hide blemishes. No before and after images. Others suggest some sources of heat were/could be used. OK, show the photos. Some even appear to claim that "it can't be photographed," or have other excuses. Possibly one thing has been misnamed for another much like the false use of "sintered."
Let's see....no examples, no photos, no practitioners, no clarity in how this could be done --- nothing. Hmmmm - Sounds perfect !
@fc said: "Yes. I have seen the term "smoothed" over the years. It is a catch all more or less for working a coin's surfaces. It does not matter how it was done. They just labeled it as "smoothed". TPGs actually put that on the label of graded coins."
"Smoothed" is a "typical weasel term" appropriated by those "Johnny-come-lately" young numismatists and auction houses who wish to downplay a SIGNIFICANT alteration to a coin. There is no such thing as a smoothed coin! They are "tooled" or "burnished" to remove defects and corrosion. I believe this nonsense started with ancient coins. This is similar to calling severely corroded coins "sea water surface." LOL.
"I agree the orange peel would be ruined."
There IS NO IF NOT! This is not an opinion. The surface is ruined.
"A jeweler uses laser welding. They fix cracks, add metal, etc.. and then use traditional methods to blend it in."
Then this may be the correct name and method.
"What you are proposing...:
I HAVE PROPOSED NOTHING. I have only said that someone attached the word "lasered" to altered surface coin's with a particular "smoothed" look.
"So everything you posted is exactly what people have been saying for years now. It sounds quite believable. The
only problem is that we have absolutely no proof what so ever it has been done."
I believe this is exactly what I posted.
"If you watch youtube video of techs using lasers on metal (in the yeat 2018 mind you, not 2003 tech) you would quickly realize that lasering a small area of the field would stand out like a sore thumb compared to the other areas. In my humble opinion as of right now."
Please read my post again. I have NEVER had any difficulty detecting what has been called a lasered surface. As you posted it is OBVIOUS to anyone who knows what a natural surface looks like.
"After all.. the point of this thread is for someone to explain to doubters how wrong we are. That a laser can
manipulate the surfaces of a coin to get past a TPG back in the 2000-2003 era of coin grading."
100% fact: Lasered coins have been slabbed by TPGS's long after 2003; however, IMO it should be virtually impossible to get one to pass as unaltered these days.
The interesting thing is if you google properly you will see that it could very well be possible now days. A lot of
research by academia and corporations have gone into laser control, overlapping of passes, etc.. to do it now days.
But this research, papers I found by universities, are circa 2010-2013. We need this tech available in the 2003 time
range when lasering came about and was detected. Definitely before 2006.
http://accelconf.web.cern.ch/AccelConf/IPAC2013/papers/wepwo087.pdf
A lot has changed since then when it comes to manipulating metals for certain industries. The costs have come way
down. But if in 2013 they were still working on issues... people were doing it to coins in 2003 era? Really?
Not correct: I have several images of lasered surface Proofs. They can be imaged, in fact they look just like a polished coin. What I wrote was it is difficult to reproduce (BECAUSE THEY LOOK JUST AS A POLISHED COIN). Additionally, most folks would not know what the heck they were looking at!
Eventually I will find one of my images. A simple internet search of Proof Liberty $20 will possibly show one.
IMO, this alteration was not being done in 2003. The first I saw were before 2008 and after 2003 - 04.
The term lasering was used on this very forum in 2004.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/284706/lasering-gold
I can find references of it going back to at least 2003. Probably earlier if I used my google-fu.
RE: "Not correct: I have several images of lasered surface Proofs."
Post them for all to learn from. Be sure to tell how it can be detected.
The detection part I do not think is in question. Under magnification you would see the changes compared to unaltered areas.
The question seems to be the techniques used to smooth the coin and if there was ever a laser used to do it. Circa
2003-2004. I am going to guess someone with a lot of skill working with metals was employed to do it manually and
more then likely a heat source was involved. Could the heat have been a laser? Or was the laser the only method
used and the heat literally caused hairlines to fill back in and smooth out? That would take some serious control of
the laser. Like scratching ice and using your finger to heat up the surface near the scratches causing the ice to melt
and re-flow into the indentations. Then refreezing it.
After all these years I would have thought a website by an expert would finally show high res/magnified pics of this
doctoring. That is what bothers me. Coin people love their pictures of the tiniest details of coins.
Nice to see all this input. However, lasering alters the surface. BUT IT DOES NOT MATCH ORIGINAL SURFACES AS STRUCK. Always detectable in my opinion. Matching existing surfaces would be impossible.
bob