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Can anyone show me a picture of a coin that was lasered?
fc
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Can anyone show me a picture of a coin that was lasered?
Anyone know of an auction description for a coin that was confirmed
to be lasered? Before or after pics?
Anything to dispell it as an old wives tale done to certain types of coins?
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Here is a quote from Laura about the subject I am asking about.
"As collectors, you can write the ANA and even the PNG and demand action. Keep this topic alive and loud. As a group, we can beat the small fraction who thinks coin doctoring is ok. Coins are a treasure, not items to be recolored, lasered, or retooled. I am tired of hearing about what coin doctors dream they can do when a fresh original group of coins comes to the market. And don’t even ask me about what i think every time I see a ruined coin…..Does your dealer care? Ask them to be involved in this fight too. I’d be wondering an awful lot about them if they shy away."
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I am using google to search for any information about it. I am curious.
Heritage archives do not show a single coin that was laser"ed".
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More talk about it yet no proof or examples:
"I had heard that gold coins were the most counterfeited coins of all. I also heard how one of the newest techniques for altering gold coins was the lasering of hairlines. Apparently this results in the gold melting and smoothing out the hairlines but is detectable because it affects the luster. So if I was to work on creating a $20 Liberty Type 1 Double Eagle set, I would only buy certified coins for my protection."
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More talk yet no examples. Just a ?rumor?:
"Speaker's Wor[l]d
Coin Grading Perspectives
Presented by Alex Moulinas to our April 13, 2005 meeting.
Coin grading services and their slabs are a fixture in contemporary US numismatics, and they are expanding into world coins. Alex Moulinas, now with the international coin department at Harlen J. Berk Ltd. but previously a grader with one of the grading services, started the program by giving an overview of how the services grade; then members asked questions of Alex, sometimes with spirited followup discussions by the members.
A number of skills were discussed from how to look at a coin, when to use magnification, and what magnification to use.
A wide range of topics also were discussed, including: the grading practices of European dealers and such US specialty clubs as the Early American Coppers (EAC), attribution and other blunders on slabs, net grading of coins with damage, and even such recent coin-doctor tricks as laser-improved proof gold.
Had a few laughs and learned some new things; you should have been there for this frank presentation and discussion on grading."
-----------------
Anyone know of an auction description for a coin that was confirmed
to be lasered? Before or after pics?
Anything to dispell it as an old wives tale done to certain types of coins?
----------
Here is a quote from Laura about the subject I am asking about.
"As collectors, you can write the ANA and even the PNG and demand action. Keep this topic alive and loud. As a group, we can beat the small fraction who thinks coin doctoring is ok. Coins are a treasure, not items to be recolored, lasered, or retooled. I am tired of hearing about what coin doctors dream they can do when a fresh original group of coins comes to the market. And don’t even ask me about what i think every time I see a ruined coin…..Does your dealer care? Ask them to be involved in this fight too. I’d be wondering an awful lot about them if they shy away."
------------
I am using google to search for any information about it. I am curious.
Heritage archives do not show a single coin that was laser"ed".
-----------
More talk about it yet no proof or examples:
"I had heard that gold coins were the most counterfeited coins of all. I also heard how one of the newest techniques for altering gold coins was the lasering of hairlines. Apparently this results in the gold melting and smoothing out the hairlines but is detectable because it affects the luster. So if I was to work on creating a $20 Liberty Type 1 Double Eagle set, I would only buy certified coins for my protection."
-----------
More talk yet no examples. Just a ?rumor?:
"Speaker's Wor[l]d
Coin Grading Perspectives
Presented by Alex Moulinas to our April 13, 2005 meeting.
Coin grading services and their slabs are a fixture in contemporary US numismatics, and they are expanding into world coins. Alex Moulinas, now with the international coin department at Harlen J. Berk Ltd. but previously a grader with one of the grading services, started the program by giving an overview of how the services grade; then members asked questions of Alex, sometimes with spirited followup discussions by the members.
A number of skills were discussed from how to look at a coin, when to use magnification, and what magnification to use.
A wide range of topics also were discussed, including: the grading practices of European dealers and such US specialty clubs as the Early American Coppers (EAC), attribution and other blunders on slabs, net grading of coins with damage, and even such recent coin-doctor tricks as laser-improved proof gold.
Had a few laughs and learned some new things; you should have been there for this frank presentation and discussion on grading."
-----------------
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>I imagine lasering (mostly used for melting hairlines on proof gold coin to hide them) would be difficult to photograph. >>
That is the jist I am getting that what lasering is used for.
But not a single auction blurb mentioning a lasered coin on heritage?
No mention of impaired luster due to the lasering in the description?
lasered but have no way of knowing for sure.
On the board we've accused, or at least intimated, that folks are using photoshop to
eliminate some luster breaks, etc. Perhaps it's a lasering process instead and they
are actually doctoring the coin and not the pic.
bob
"As more and more coins get "conserved," the premiums for beautiful, natural, original toning will increase. And so will the incentive to try to reproduce it in the laboratory. Profit is a strong motivator ... I have seen lasered FBL Franklins and lasered proof gold (to make hairlines in the fields go away). Now that is sophisticated stuff, and potentially lucrative FRAUD. Passing that stuff off as natural is both a tort and a crime, an intentional deception. Ditto for AT coins designed to reap the premiums paid for NT coins. Sooner or later someone needs to get prosecuted, and then perhaps it will stop. However, for now, I still believe I can tell the good stuff from the bad stuff enough of the time, and therefore I am comfortable paying premiums for beautifully toned coins such as the ones I have posted above."
Maybe he can provide a link to the example. After all, proof gold is
a rare bird and should show up at auctions. But now lasered Franklins too? hmmm Bell lines being lasered?
Where does this lasering menance end???
"Why I sold: some things scared me. I saw pops going up as new coins were being made. I saw some coins made by insiders that should NEVER have been able to get into those holders. It made me feel the whole thing was rigged. I saw more AT coins showing up, and lasered proof gold. I saw the crossover game, the crackout game, the doctoring game, the dipping game, the Registry hype, the ridiculous moderns. I saw coins evolve from one holder to another, and go from dealer to dealer, and go from $15000 auction price to $75000 asking price. I got a sense that the whole thing is such an incredible racket. But mainly I sold for the usual reason: I had been so obsessed, and had put so much money into it, that I couldn't justify it any more !!"
So just when did this start? Seems people have been reporting this
for almost a decade yet no one can find me an example?
"“We’re seeing more and more coin doctoring than we’ve ever seen, and the methods used to alter the coins are more and more sophisticated,” said Ron Guth, President of PCGS, a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ: CLCT). “We are constantly trying to keep up with new and sophisticated techniques, such as micro surgery with lasers and various chemical treatments to alter the surfaces of coins. You name it, and the coin doctors are trying it. We’re giving public notice to those who alter coins that we’re clamping down on them.”"
Any pics or examples?
"PCGS Grading and Counterfeit Detection Guide
This 415-page paperback book was edited by Scott A. Travers with text written by John Dannreuther, and contains detailed descriptions of coin grades and the intricacies of counterfeit detection. There are nearly 600 sharply-detailed color and black and white digital images of coins. This new edition contains major innovations and enhancements including grading guides for superb-quality Statehood quarters and modern commemoratives, and updated "insider" information about the way lasers are used to deceptively "doctor" coins."
anyway, if the laser is used to hide hairlines,et al, and it leaves virtually no sign of
`tampering` how are we to know if nearly all high-grade whatevers hadnt been lasered?
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.collecting.coins/2006-09/msg00930.html
It is the same people talking about the same stuff with now added
twist to the ?rumor?
It can be done through PCGS plastic.
Also a person is stating they think they have a coin that was lasered
but of course it was never attempted to be graded. Of course.
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From: "John D." <jhdfla@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:59:26 GMT
Fwiw, I can tell you with certainty it is being done to "enhance" coins,
however I am not aware of how widespread or effective it is.
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jhdfla... you always seem to claim to know so much insider doctoring
stuff yet fail to name names or show examples. Why is that? Maybe
you can help me out by showing me a picture of a coin that was lasered
and put into an auction?
So it enhances the coin and you are sure it is being done..
but you cannot tell if it is effective or not?
hm.
Seems to me that a laser ablating metal would leave a mark, not remove a mark. In fact, the only laser/metal applications I have seen have been to leave little pockmarks.
And through plastic? Not.
application that is not a rumor.
However, if I were interested, I'd pay close attention to proof gold -- as I have been told that much of the lasering occurs with these coins. I'm sure someone astute as you could find a coin that's made a few trips through Heritage over the years before and after laser surgery.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I bet lasering would be very good at making cameos appear frostier.
Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is April 12-13, 2024 at the Eisenhower Hotel in Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
I tend to agree with adamlaneus. If a laser is applied I would expect the surface atoms and molecules to be vaporized, causing the surface to be etched. I suppose that it could be used to melt the gold alloy and allow it to fill the hairlines too. But I too will remain skeptical until I see photographical evidence.
Great thread fc!
<< <i>Anyone have this book and what does it state about lasering?
Any pics or examples?
"PCGS Grading and Counterfeit Detection Guide
This 415-page paperback book was edited by Scott A. Travers with text written by John Dannreuther, and contains detailed descriptions of coin grades and the intricacies of counterfeit detection. There are nearly 600 sharply-detailed color and black and white digital images of coins. This new edition contains major innovations and enhancements including grading guides for superb-quality Statehood quarters and modern commemoratives, and updated "insider" information about the way lasers are used to deceptively "doctor" coins." >>
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<< <i>If lasering obliterates hairlines, a lasered coin would have fewer and less conspicuous hairlines. The subtraction of hairlines would be impossible to demonstrate in a photo. >>
I also agree with the posters who say "myth". This has got to be an Urban legend. If you cannot "detect" the alteration then how can you attribute it to "lasering". And if its that good, then it seems to me the technique is actually beneficial and not detrimental to the coin.
Edited to add: The "wavy" look of the coin surface is in the Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection book. It is attributed to the heat application to remove hairlines quoted in my previous post. Also this section of the Doctored Coins chapter indicates that the method is most often applied to Proof gold coins. Again, no mention of "lasering" here.
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<< <i>If lasering obliterates hairlines, a lasered coin would have fewer and less conspicuous hairlines. The subtraction of hairlines would be impossible to demonstrate in a photo. >>
i am reading the way they detect this removal is due to the changes
of the lasered area versus unlasered... thus the luster, orange peel,
or cameo appeareance has changed in some way.
at the very least one would think i could come up with just one coin
that was impaired due to a laser in an auction description after several
years of this doctoring supposedly taking place??
I would be happy with just one coin that an expert has determined to
be lasered and documented as such in an auction or what have you.
Yet I cannot find one! No one on this board can show me a coin. Do you
not find that odd? Among all these dealers and experts we cannot
produce one coin that is an example???
<< <i>Yet I cannot find one! No one on this board can show me a coin. Do you
not find that odd? Among all these dealers and experts we cannot
produce one coin that is an example??? >>
IMHO that's because "lasering" is not used to remove hair lines. Some other heat source is used such as a "match" or other "high-temperature torch selectively applied to a specific area." It seems to me that "lasering" has, through common interpretation, become to mean "melting" the "Proof Gold coin hairlines" when it should apply only to "altering the surface of a coin" as described in Dannreuther and Travers Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection.
I don't believe that the "heat source" for altering Proof Gold coins is a "laser", IMHO.
I believe the "laser" is rather used for "sculpting" as one would do with a scalpel for example. I'll bet a "laser" could do a number on a Buffalo Nickel, to turn it into a "hobo" nickel in short order!
It seems to me that "lasering" has become confused with "heat" altering techniques for removing hairlines on Proof Gold specimens. And this form of "doctoring" appears to be ver specifically limited to proof gold coins only.
I tend to be more concerned about Chinese counterfeits than "lasering". But I too am interested in photographic examples, if they exist!
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match stays lit could melt diddly squat. You would need to use a blow
torch to get it hot enough and if you ever worked with blow torches
they are a very clumsy tool. Even the small torches cigar stores sell
for lighting cigars is a clumsy tool for removing things such as hair lines
on a coin. And while you are heating that spot up.. the metal of the
coin will get hot as the heat spreads throughout it.
The heat of a bic lighter flame is gets a tad hotter then the melting
point of gold, FYI.
My opinion is that heat removal of hairlines is a coin urban legend.
Until I see a documented case I am not quite sure how a person can
argue it exists. It is the bigfoot of coin doctoring to me.
<< <i>I am not sure a match on a gold coin for the length of how long the
match stays lit could melt diddly squat. You would need to use a blow
torch to get it hot enough and if you ever worked with blow torches
they are a very clumsy tool. Even the small torches cigar stores sell
for lighting cigars is a clumsy tool for removing things such as hair lines
on a coin. And while you are heating that spot up.. the metal of the
coin will get hot as the heat spreads throughout it.
My opinion is that heat removal of hairlines is a coin urban legend.
Until I see a documented case I am not quite sure how a person can
argue it exists. It is the bigfoot of coin doctoring to me. >>
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Just how many people could be lasering proof gold coins. The list of names would have to be short.
The only person iknow to get caught doctoring coins is manofcoins. What actually happened to him???
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
with a patch of hairlines and get just the right areas hot enough for
the metal to flow back into the crevices of the hairlines.. all this without
ruining the coin overall in that or other areas. And this with a crude
flame/torch. A laser makes more sense in a flashy hollywood way
Total control.
As a previous poster mentioned.. the microscopic look of the coin
would be drastically different from the doctored area.
I admit it is possible from a engineering standpoint.. but finding someone
who can demonstrate it was done to a specific coin is becoming
a fruitless hunt. I have asked about this before.
Did you know.. laser technology can produce temperatures as hot as the sun ? in 2030's we should have fusion reactors which are mini suns
Here's the current low tech "junk" firing off a reaction of a fuel pellet.. this reactor uses more power than it produces (to heat the pellet to millions of Kelvin), its called JET the Joint European Torus
http://www.jet.efda.org/movies/0064159-portrait.mpg
Test chamber is heavily lined of course, but you can still see how powerful this technology is. Unrelated ? perhaps.. but they FOCUS that laser on a point and heat it that much. Touching up lines under a powerful microscope using a computer aid would be simplistic compared to this.. I find the idea intriguing and want to see it done. You could pretty much fix some badly damaged coins, it just requires the precision
<< <i>I'm all ears on this
Did you know.. laser technology can produce temperatures as hot as the sun ? in 2030's we should have fusion reactors which are mini suns
Here's the current low tech "junk" firing off a reaction of a fuel pellet.. this reactor uses more power than it produces (to heat the pellet to millions of Kelvin), its called JET the Joint European Torus
http://www.jet.efda.org/movies/0064159-portrait.mpg
Test chamber is heavily lined of course, but you can still see how powerful this technology is. Unrelated ? perhaps.. but they FOCUS that laser on a point and heat it that much. Touching up lines under a powerful microscope using a computer aid would be simplistic compared to this.. I find the idea intriguing and want to see it done. You could pretty much fix some badly damaged coins, it just requires the precision >>
I do not think anyone is doubting that it is hypothetically possible.
Imagine a small blob of solder. Put some scratches on it. Take your
blow torch and quickly heat it back up to its melting point.. just enough
to make it liquid again. Let it cool and you will see that the scratches
are gone.
But you have changed the shape of the blob of solder in a small way.
Just an example of how I am picturing the process if done to a coin's
surface in a specific area.
Even though I say it is hypothetically possible does not mean it is
taking place to proof coins to remove hairlines or etch in bell lines on
franklins....
Since the coin surface is essentially flat, maybe some very careful "scraping" or pushing with a laser pointer
I want to know where I can get a coin done
<< <i>I have been into coins for a short time (around 7 years) I always hear about coin doctors. Coin doctors this and coin doctors that. No one ever names NAMES. iT WOULD NOT BE THAT DIFFICULT TO NAME A FEW NAMES. Everyone seems to want to sweep it under the rug to some degree. Laura is big on preaching about coin docs. I know she knows some names.
Just how many people could be lasering proof gold coins. The list of names would have to be short.
The only person iknow to get caught doctoring coins is manofcoins. What actually happened to him??? >>
ManofCoins went back to selling coins after a few weeks. That is why it is useless to name names. The "rat" doing the fingering will be black balled from the hobby, and the coin doc will skate on to continue doing business. Even someone caught committing out right fraud (opening up ICCS holders, substituting the coins, resealing the flip-style holders) was back in business in a few months. The reason docs are tolerated is because they bring in money. "Rats" don't bring in any money and are bad for business, and the rats will be the ones pushed out if there is a struggle with a doc.
In the stamp hobby, one well known scammer was identified and tracked, there were even articles about him published in the major stamp magazines, and major news sites. The stamp doc is still in business, still raking in big money, despite repeated articles about his scam of altering stamps (adding perforations, removing cancels, removing hinge marks) and selling them in the magazines and via Ebay. Nothing like this has happened in coins with so much fanfare and publicity. However, I'd bet it would not be much different. All they have to do is open up a new P. O. Box with a new business name, and/or a new Ebay ID and start scamming all over again. That's what the stamp guy did. When shut down again, they moved again and started up new.
Keep in mind that coin dealers tend to circle the wagons when their bread might not get buttered, so many that know the score and may even have photos, won't post that information for public consumption. Again, the "rat" is the one that will get black balled, not the doc. Talk to some major dealers off the record, or top graders at the companies, and you'll learn that lasering is not a myth. Some dealers might say "myth" in public to build confidence, so that people keep buying the altered coins, even if they know better.
/edit to add:
Here is a link to a MSNBC article on the stamp fraud from 2007. The second link mentions the scam being uncovered in 2002 so ran at least five years in the wide open. Even if a doc is named, and evidence compiled, it will likely be like the stamp guy, who is still selling altered product, still ringing the cash register, many years later, despite a mountain of evidence against him.
link1
link2
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
If that were true, welding would be a myth....
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
I laser etch metal all the time. The Canadian Mint has coins that have been laser etch. The metal plates that I work with don't instantly turn to molten metal.
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Yes. And when you get your cornea lasered (LASIK) the laser beam comes out of the back of your head and melts the gurney. In fact, it shoots all the way to China.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Coin dealer, attorney AND scientist. What doesn't Frank know about?
I'd like to hear from one of our material scientist or matllurgist memebers regarding whether metals conduct heat "instantly"... My suspicion is no.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Offical Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection----Lasers have been used for quite a few years in many fields, but only recently has the intense light of these devices been turned onto the surfaces of coins. Usually, Proofs are the coin of choice for this sophisticated treatment, although a few Mint State examples have also been noted. Most collectors, and even dealers, will have a hard time recognizing this subtle alteration to a coins's surface. In most cases, a scratch or heavy hairline is heated with the laser to the point that the surfaces melt in this area.....and the scratch or hairline is no longer obvious to the unaided eye. However, under magnification the surface will show disturbance, on silver coins this is very minor, but on gold coins, the "orange peel" surface is missing in the affected area. As noted, this technique is subtle and a trained eye is needed to detect the change. >>
At least it tells how to tell the gold coins some of the time by the loss of "orange peel" in the affected areas.
No pics of before and after.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>
Imagine a small blob of solder. Put some scratches on it. Take your
blow torch and quickly heat it back up to its melting point.. just enough
to make it liquid again. Let it cool and you will see that the scratches
are gone.
But you have changed the shape of the blob of solder in a small way.
Just an example of how I am picturing the process if done to a coin's
surface in a specific area.
Even though I say it is hypothetically possible does not mean it is
taking place to proof coins to remove hairlines or etch in bell lines on
franklins.... >>
I would imagine it's a very fine line between taking a $5K classic gold proof coin and either turning it into a $50K coin or a $400 puddle...
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Just do a web search for Laser Marking Systems and you'll find that they are readily available. You don't need much power either, compared with laser cutting.
Conduction of heat is a slow process compared with the duration of a laser pulse.
I don't buy the melting thing with respect to smooth fields. Metal that is molten will recrystallize in a manner that is completely different than the original plastic flow that was caused by stamping the coin.
Who knows, though. There are devices out there that are completely out of my experience. I've heard of an oven that can heat up to 10k degrees but for a terribly short, pulsed period of time. It's used to dramatically heat surfaces of objects, but only in a very thin layer near the surface.
<< <i>If lasering obliterates hairlines, a lasered coin would have fewer and less conspicuous hairlines. The subtraction of hairlines would be impossible to demonstrate in a photo. >>
Would a (good) picture or set of pictures of a coin with obvious hairlines, and then a picture of same coin (provable same coin - prehaps a hit somewhere) without the hairlines be enough to prove that lasering is a viable technique? (viable, but not acceptable)
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Frank, if that's the case, how can lasers be used in industry to cut and etch other metals?
Opps, I thought you wrote Tasered!
<< <i>
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Frank, if that's the case, how can lasers be used in industry to cut and etch other metals? >>
I think what he is saying that you need to take a laser to heat up a minute area of the
coin (hairline and the ridges opposite of the indentation in the coin) and cause the raised
areas to flow back into the hairline... all the while not causing other areas of the coin to
melt also.
It seems like a reasonable argument. Etching/engraving a metal surface is not even close to comparable
to what is being claimed to have happened to proof coins and the removal of hairlines in my opinion.
One is actually removing metal.. the other is heating it up and evening it out without removal (i guess).
just all talk though. i am interested in a proven example of a doctored lasered coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>If lasering obliterates hairlines, a lasered coin would have fewer and less conspicuous hairlines. The subtraction of hairlines would be impossible to demonstrate in a photo. >>
Would a (good) picture or set of pictures of a coin with obvious hairlines, and then a picture of same coin (provable same coin - prehaps a hit somewhere) without the hairlines be enough to prove that lasering is a viable technique? (viable, but not acceptable) >>
You can eliminate hairlines in a pic by just changing the angle of the lighting or photoshopping the pic so this wouldn't constitute acceptable proof of lasering.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If lasering obliterates hairlines, a lasered coin would have fewer and less conspicuous hairlines. The subtraction of hairlines would be impossible to demonstrate in a photo. >>
Would a (good) picture or set of pictures of a coin with obvious hairlines, and then a picture of same coin (provable same coin - prehaps a hit somewhere) without the hairlines be enough to prove that lasering is a viable technique? (viable, but not acceptable) >>
You can eliminate hairlines in a pic by just changing the angle of the lighting or photoshopping the pic so this wouldn't constitute acceptable proof of lasering. >>
I could easily demonstrate a proof gold coin without and with hairlines, and I promise you I did nothing to the coin but tilt it.
Some sellers of proof gold show an advantageous photograph that makes the coin look deep black and gold, with perfect mirrored surfaces. They look like Proof 69CAM moderns (but are graded 63, 64, or 65). In fact, if you could see the coins in hand, no doubt the hairlines would be apparent, as well as possibly other defects.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Coin dealer, attorney AND scientist. What doesn't Frank know about?
I'd like to hear from one of our material scientist or matllurgist memebers regarding whether metals conduct heat "instantly"... My suspicion is no. >>
As a Physicist, I know a little something about how metals phase change and conduct, so I'll give it a try.
It would be more accurate to say: "some metals dissipate heat very rapidly". As we all know from handling various types of cookware, some metals are actually poor conductors of heat. Gold, silver, and copper on the other hand, are all wonderful conductors of heat and electricity. That said, aside from superconductors, all metals have a natural resistance to conduction, and do not dissipate heat instantaneously, as suggested by fc. Placing a heat sorce directly onto a piece of gold may be sufficient to melt locally, but once enough energy has been "donated" to overcoming the natural resistivity, the melting would cease. It is much more likely that a sufficiently powerful laser would simply melt a hole in the coin, rather than bring the whole piece of metal to a molten state.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>As a Physicist, I know a little something about how metals phase change and conduct, so I'll give it a try.
It would be more accurate to say: "some metals dissipate heat very rapidly". As we all know from handling various types of cookware, some metals are actually poor conductors of heat. Gold, silver, and copper on the other hand, are all wonderful conductors of heat and electricity. That said, aside from superconductors, all metals have a natural resistance to conduction, and do not dissipate heat instantaneously, as suggested by fc. Placing a heat sorce directly onto a piece of gold may be sufficient to melt locally, but once enough energy has been "donated" to overcoming the natural resistivity, the melting would cease. It is much more likely that a sufficiently powerful laser would simply melt a hole in the coin, rather than bring the whole piece of metal to a molten state. >>
So, you are suggesting that you can tell lasered coins by the big giant hole in the center. I guess it got rid of the hairlines.
<< <i>
<< <i>As a Physicist, I know a little something about how metals phase change and conduct, so I'll give it a try.
It would be more accurate to say: "some metals dissipate heat very rapidly". As we all know from handling various types of cookware, some metals are actually poor conductors of heat. Gold, silver, and copper on the other hand, are all wonderful conductors of heat and electricity. That said, aside from superconductors, all metals have a natural resistance to conduction, and do not dissipate heat instantaneously, as suggested by fc. Placing a heat sorce directly onto a piece of gold may be sufficient to melt locally, but once enough energy has been "donated" to overcoming the natural resistivity, the melting would cease. It is much more likely that a sufficiently powerful laser would simply melt a hole in the coin, rather than bring the whole piece of metal to a molten state. >>
So, you are suggesting that you can tell lasered coins by the big giant hole in the center. I guess it got rid of the hairlines.
The operation was a success, however, the patient died
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Whos cut up eagle is that ?
<< <i>It's a myth. Metals conduct heat instantly. The entire coin would be at the melting point before a laser had any effect. >>
Hmm. Guess this kinda disses the "through the slab" comments as well.
Oh no wait............OMG.....Just wait one freaking minute!
Cold lasering will smooth that metal out like glass! By golly gosh!
The folks that dream this crap up are simply incredible! Talk about feeding a paranoid monster? This "laser it through the slab" business has got to be about the dumbest thing I've ever heard!
The name is LEE!