There has been a change in collecting..

Gemineye

There has been a change and not for the good.The regular collector base is being outpaced by bullion collectors.Normal collectors that have once sought coins year after year and have traded their coins seem to fallen to the wayside.They are not being sought after.Bullion graded coins are becoming popular and are replacing a once circulated coin market.
Coins are plentiful ..but who wants them when the price of bullion keeps rising.....the ones making money are the buyers and sellers..not the holders...

Stooge

Can't we have both?

Later, Paul.

savoyspecial

As always, everything runs in cycles

greg

BobSav

Anyone buying "bullion" now is in for a LONG wait to see any profits. IMHO

Bob

Griv

Not everyone in bullion is just buying and selling as there are quite a few collectors that are serious about building bullion sets by year or denomination. 1/10 and 1/4 oz sets are very popular as is working on year sets for childrem or grandchildren. Most of the bullion being "traded" is 05 and later.

291fifth

That is very evident at the coin shop I frequent. Numismatic coins have been relegated to second rate status while bullion occupies all the prime display cases. One of the problems is that they are not being offered much in the way of numismatically interesting coins, but they are being offered plenty of bullion related items. The bullion related items also sell well.

Once you get beyond Morgan dollars they really have very little of interest (assuming that you find Morgan dollars to be of any interest ... I don't.)

BECOKA

The way I see it is that the broad growing base of bullion and modern collectors will eventually trickle into the classics. I would imagine a percentage would start wondering what else there is to collect.

ricko

Collectors can collect whatever they want... stop criticizing other peoples interests. Cheers, RickO

Gemineye

<< <i>Collectors can collect whatever they want... stop criticizing other peoples interests. Cheers, RickO >>


Who cares what other people collect....I'm gonna push this thread to 100...all those bullion buyers and collectors are ruining it for us normal folks.And then the flippers...thems' is another story....!!!

chiefbob

What are you basing your assumptions on? Anecdotal evidence or some hard statistical data? It sounds like a generalization and I'm just curious.

I am buying some silver bullion in the form of bars and junk silver periodically. But on the other hand, I'm going against the grain of collecting modern anything anymore. I've been selling off everything dated 1965 and after and buying high quality Morgans and capped bust halves. I'm tired of the plethora of Mint products and the congressional mandates to coin anything and everything.

Long wait on silver? I think not. We are not in the late 1970s and the Hughes brothers aren't manipulating the market. A lot of countries are buying up PMs like mad. I see a steady climb of both gold and silver with necessary, periodic corrections.

Like Ricko said, let people collect what they want and don't lament what might be a change in collecting habits.

chiefbob

<< <i>

<< <i>Collectors can collect whatever they want... stop criticizing other peoples interests. Cheers, RickO >>


Who cares what other people collect....I'm gonna push this thread to 100...all those bullion buyers and collectors are ruining it for us normal folks.And then the flippers...thems' is another story....!!! >>



As a "normal" person (whatever that means), why complain about bullion buyers "ruining it" for you? If the regular coins (whatever they may be) are being "outpaced" (whatever that really means) by bullion, then you should be able to buy your "regular" coins at a bargain if they're not selling.

Your OP doesn't make sense and is self-contradictory.

And who cares if the thread goes to 100? Is there an award for that?

Gemineye

<< <i>What are you basing your assumptions on? Anecdotal evidence or some hard statistical data? It sounds like a generalization and I'm just curious.

I am buying some silver bullion in the form of bars and junk silver periodically. But on the other hand, I'm going against the grain of collecting modern anything anymore. I've been selling off everything dated 1965 and after and buying high quality Morgans and capped bust halves. I'm tired of the plethora of Mint products and the congressional mandates to coin anything and everything.

Long wait on silver? I think not. We are not in the late 1970s and the Hughes brothers aren't manipulating the market. A lot of countries are buying up PMs like mad. I see a steady climb of both gold and silver with necessary, periodic corrections.

Like Ricko said, let people collect what they want and don't lament what might be a change in collecting habits. >>


True my statements are more generalized but also one must look at the records of the bullion sales from the mint.The Mint does indeed make a good profit from those sales and if they can sell the bullion rather than circulating coin products they will sell bullion.

Prethen

I still get a kick out of the fact that bullion is graded.

fc

i do not really see buying bullion as a collection. it is an investment.
if people wish to spend their money there for the time being so be
it. it means less competition for coins i want.

good news all around.

BECOKA

<< <i>I still get a kick out of the fact that bullion is graded. >>



Don't think of it as grading, think of it as hard shell protection for a small investment.

Doogy

<< <i>I still get a kick out of the fact that bullion is graded. >>



me too, but where else could they sell the term "first strike" to the masses?

OPA

Every time I read a thread like this one ... I think of what BongoBongo said along with Goldbully's interpetation:


IF YOU BUY WHAT YOU LIKE, AT A PRICE YOU CAN AFFORD AT THE TIME, THEN THINGS WILL BE EASIER

IF YOU BUY WHAT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE, BORROW TO FUND IT AND EXPECT MULTIPLES OF RETURN, THEN YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE UNHAPPY

BONGO SAY NEARLY EVERYTHING DEPRECIATES OVER TIME.BONGO WOULD NOT PAY $500 FOR A SILVER BELL THIS XMAS AND EXPECT IT TO BE WORTH $550 NEXT YEAR. BUT BONGO KNOW A SILVER BELL IS NOT OLD COIN. OR IS IT. REMEMBER THAT OLD COIN IS ONLY WORTH FEW DOLLARS IN PHYSICAL MATERIAL VALUE - THIS IS WHY VALUE IS AN ESOTERIC CONCEPT IN MANY WAYS AND IT MAY BE VULGAR TO ASSIGN ANY MONETARY VALUE TO OLD COIN

UNLESS YOU ARE A RUSSIAN OLIGARCH OR CHINESE SHODDY GOODS FACTORY OWNER





( Interpreted Version )

BONGO MAYBE NOT SURPRISED THAT OLD COIN IS LIKE ANY OTHER LIMITED NON ESSENTIAL COMMODITY AND SUBJECT TO THE WHIMS OF TASTE AND MARKET.

PUT THE COIN IN BOOK AND ENJOY IT.

IF IT IS WORTH MORE WHEN YOU COME TO SELL IT, WELL DONE

IF NOT, THEN YOU HAVE HAD ENJOYMENT OUT OF IT.

REMEMBER THAT OLD COIN IS ONLY WORTH FEW DOLLARS IN PHYSICAL MATERIAL VALUE - THIS IS WHY VALUE IS AN ESOTERIC CONCEPT IN MANY WAYS AND IT MAY BE VULGAR TO ASSIGN ANY MONETARY VALUE TO OLD COIN

UNLESS YOU ARE A RUSSIAN OLIGARCH OR CHINESE SHODDY GOODS FACTORY OWNER

RegistryCoin

The reason it is being graded is because it is being collected.

Gemineye

<< <i>As a "normal" person (whatever that means), why complain about bullion buyers "ruining it" for you? If the regular coins (whatever they may be) are being "outpaced" (whatever that really means) by bullion, then you should be able to buy your "regular" coins at a bargain if they're not selling.

Your OP doesn't make sense and is self-contradictory.

And who cares if the thread goes to 100? Is there an award for that? >>


I don't insult folks to generate threads...It seems that all the posts that go up in numbers are the ones that insult and degrade in some way.I stated the Bullion purchasers that buy from the Mint are outpacing the regular collectors.I'm sure their sales figures prove it or the mint wouldn't keep selling bullion related material.
If you buy your bullion in bars and bulk then you are speculating in the metals market.IMO..

Hyperion

<< <i>There has been a change and not for the good.The regular collector base is being outpaced by bullion collectors.Normal collectors that have once sought coins year after year and have traded their coins seem to fallen to the wayside.They are not being sought after.Bullion graded coins are becoming popular and are replacing a once circulated coin market.
Coins are plentiful ..but who wants them when the price of bullion keeps rising.....the ones making money are the buyers and sellers..not the holders... >>



I think you have to consider the source. this is a TPG board which is primarily populated by people interesting in slabbing or of things slabbed, and more than not, interested in the vested interest represented by the slabbing (watching the price guides for TPG-MS63 vs. TPG-MS64, woohoo ! upgrade!)

inna club population you'd prolly get more presentations and trading opportunities...

Coxe

This isn't all about making money....unless you are a dealer. And I don't see the top dealers transitioning into bullion. There are still plenty of collectors of real coins. And those who like the NCLT are just fine as are those who dig Franklin Mint stuff.

Gemineye

Hyperion
Your too logical.....

MarkAZ

Real Coins?

I see alot of the "Bullion collectors" collecting all sorts of varieties of coins now. I'm one of them. I noticed the rising price of bullion late last year, and I hurried buying Gold Buffalos and Eagles, as much as I could afford. After I got so many of them, I considered the collecting enjoyment aspect. So I went off into older coins that contained bullion, Indian Head, Liberty Head, World Coins, etc. I considered in addition to bullion content, the rarity of the coin, the artistic and romantic aspects, and the thought that if bullion prices went down, that numismatic prices would kick in as a hedge.

Isn't part of the enjoyment of collecting old Lincoln pennies knowing how valuable they are? You've got a good investment going, and that's certainly a significant part of your enjoyment in collecting them.

Sunnywood

What's really stupid is buying bullion coins and paying huge premiums for them to be in graded plastic, with or without special finishes, special designations, etc.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

When was the last time you were at a coin show?

Gemineye

<< <i>When was the last time you were at a coin show? >>


This past Saturday....!!!
I was suprised at one of the collectors speaking to a group of YN about MS 70 coins.I had everything to do to bite my toungue.It was not my place to debate the issue with him as he was the speaker.

cladking

<< <i>

<< <i>Collectors can collect whatever they want... stop criticizing other peoples interests. Cheers, RickO >>


Who cares what other people collect....I'm gonna push this thread to 100...all those bullion buyers and collectors are ruining it for us normal folks.And then the flippers...thems' is another story....!!! >>



How are they ruining it for you?

I can't imagine how anyone might ruin the hobby for me.

Gemineye

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Collectors can collect whatever they want... stop criticizing other peoples interests. Cheers, RickO >>


Who cares what other people collect....I'm gonna push this thread to 100...all those bullion buyers and collectors are ruining it for us normal folks.And then the flippers...thems' is another story....!!! >>



How are they ruining it for you?

I can't imagine how anyone might ruin the hobby for me. >>



Stop ruinin' my rant CK.......

morgannut2

<< <i>There has been a change and not for the good.The regular collector base is being outpaced by bullion collectors.Normal collectors that have once sought coins year after year and have traded their coins seem to fallen to the wayside.They are not being sought after.Bullion graded coins are becoming popular and are replacing a once circulated coin market.
Coins are plentiful ..but who wants them when the price of bullion keeps rising.....the ones making money are the buyers and sellers..not the holders... >>



--------------------------
I'm not sure of your point:

Fact 1: The only academic study on Bullion prices as relates to coin collecting showed

that the price of silver bullion was THE ONLY good predictor of rising/defllating collector coin prices

(I vaguely recall Colonial Coin in Conn. posting it). Do do the study, you need commonality of comparision--ie. certification.
Fact 2: Most dealers view "stuf" like MS65 St. Gaudian $20 Gold, and common date Morgan Silver either in MS65 or

Good/VG to be "bullion", and to sell the commons not 500 coin bags), certification is required for

Large "sight unseen" bullion deals.

cladking

<< <i>

Stop ruinin' my rant CK....... >>




Sorry, but I'm a thread killer.

Rupert305

<< <i>Not everyone in bullion is just buying and selling as there are quite a few collectors that are serious about building bullion sets by year or denomination. 1/10 and 1/4 oz sets are very popular as is working on year sets for childrem or grandchildren. Most of the bullion being "traded" is 05 and later. >>




I have a complete set of $5 gold eagles and silver eagles for my son when he gets older. He's only two now. I'm not worried if these set are worth more or less when he gets older. I'm currently working on a Franklin set, and 20th century set for myself. Everything will eventually be his sooner or later.

Gemineye

morgannut2
I believe if all these so called collectors of bullion were not buying bullion certified or mint bullion coins their monies would be spent into other coin purchases.The dealer prices for some coins would be lower and they would not seek a higher profit margin from their sales.It might not be necessarily be true in all cases but it is JMO.....

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>I believe if all these so called collectors of bullion were not buying bullion certified or mint bullion coins their monies would be spent into other coin purchases. >>

I believe one could use this argument to make the claim that, if people weren't spending all that money on other coin purchases, it would instead be spent on bullion.

Gemineye

<< <i>

<< <i>I believe if all these so called collectors of bullion were not buying bullion certified or mint bullion coins their monies would be spent into other coin purchases. >>

I believe one could use this argument to make the claim that, if people weren't spending all that money on other coin purchases, it would instead be spent on bullion. >>


I see why you call yourself .."mrpotatoheadd"..

Baley

I'm with cladking on this one.. how in the heck is anyone ruining the hobby for anyone?

cladking

<< <i>morgannut2
I believe if all these so called collectors of bullion were not buying bullion certified or mint bullion coins their monies would be spent into other coin purchases.The dealer prices for some coins would be lower and they would not seek a higher profit margin from their sales.It might not be necessarily be true in all cases but it is JMO..... >>




You're right. They should all be buying clad.

Gemineye

<< <i>I'm with cladking on this one.. how in the heck is anyone ruining the hobby for anyone? >>


I'm refering to the mints continous barrage of Bullion coins to collectors who then have them certified.....In only one year 2006.... the Silver American Eagle Bullion UNC certifications ...NOT the "W" exceeded all of the certifications of the total Sac issues of both Proof and Uncirculated from 2000 to present issue ...with plenty to spare..
Bullion is greatly exceeding the regular collector base IMO....

RegistryCoin

In addition to being very pretty, the bullion eagles are entry level coins, and there are a lot of new collectors entering the hobby. Not only are they making a little noise, but some dealers are necessary to cater to their needs. If just a miniscule percentage of those who the mint says collect state quarters, jump into eagles, there can be plenty of activity to entertain.

Coxe

I am not certain but would suspect there are far more of these hoarded in speculation than actually collected. I don't see them detrimental to the coin collecting hobby. It is a different hobby and we probably are not suffering any reall loss of collectors to it. Some even find their way to real coins. And before someone gets their panties in a bunch over the "real coins" thing, NCLT is clearly a different animal. It is all perfectly collectible and indeed has devotees and a market, though a two-way made market is debatable. A full-fledged market may develop as it did with proofs and earlier non-circulating commemoratives (which I and some others also do not regard as real coins).

BobSav

There have been two MAJOR changes to coin collecting. #1 is called "slabs" and #2 is called the internet. Take those two away and we'll be back to the "old" days.

Bob

Colquhoun

First off, No holder is going to come out behind the game if they buy quality coins and hold them, just isn't going to happen. Second, bullion is good for the hobby, anything the gets people in b & ms and keeps there doors open is. It not like it was in the past, where you could find interesting and exciting coins in circulation, heck 30 years ago when I was 10 it was rare enough. Bullion gets people in the front door, a few stay for the party.

Now the mint is pumping out tons of product these day, that is true... of course some truly remarkable things are going on down the road at the bank. I like to think of this as 1982-83 part duex, but so what if I am wrong.. In 40 or 50 years when I am dead it won't matter. But then again some of these bullion guys might be selling off their bullion to buy a single roll of just ordinary business strikes.

jmski52

There has been a change and not for the good.The regular collector base is being outpaced by bullion collectors.Normal collectors that have once sought coins year after year and have traded their coins seem to fallen to the wayside.They are not being sought after.Bullion graded coins are becoming popular and are replacing a once circulated coin market.
Coins are plentiful ..but who wants them when the price of bullion keeps rising.....the ones making money are the buyers and sellers..not the holders...

So, am I to believe that it's only "good" if "collectors" are making money, and bullion buyers and sellers are not?

Why should it make any difference at all to a collector if bullion is rising? If coins are plentiful, but no one wants them because of bullion, shouldn't that make it easier for a "collector" to collect?

Who cares what other people collect....I'm gonna push this thread to 100...all those bullion buyers and collectors are ruining it for us normal folks.And then the flippers...thems' is another story....!!!

Again, you state that bullion buyers are "ruining it for us." And out the other side of your mouth, you state that you don't care what other people collect. Start making sense soon, please.

True my statements are more generalized but also one must look at the records of the bullion sales from the mint.The Mint does indeed make a good profit from those sales and if they can sell the bullion rather than circulating coin products they will sell bullion.

And so? Come on, spit it out. I know there's a point to all of this!

I don't insult folks to generate threads...It seems that all the posts that go up in numbers are the ones that insult and degrade in some way.I stated the Bullion purchasers that buy from the Mint are outpacing the regular collectors.I'm sure their sales figures prove it or the mint wouldn't keep selling bullion related material.

You said that someone is ruining things for collectors. You don't give any reasons why people shouldn't collect bullion or how exactly coin collecting is being ruined.

If you buy your bullion in bars and bulk then you are speculating in the metals market.IMO..

Yes, and if you buy stocks, you are speculating on a future income stream from an entity that may or may not generate those expected returns. If you hold cash, you are speculating that the dollar won't be inflated to be worth less. So what?

If you have something to say, say it.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>I see why you call yourself .."mrpotatoheadd".. >>

Well, I will admit I am mystified about the claim, in the midst of what appears to be a very active and growing market, that things are being "ruined" for normal (whatever that may be) folks by bullion buyers. But then, I suppose I could be missing something...

Mar327

<< <i>Who cares what other people collect....I'm gonna push this thread to 100...all those bullion buyers and collectors are ruining it for us normal folks. >>



I love when someone dictates what is "normal". This wonderful country offers us the freedom of choice. There are coin collectors, there are bullion collectors, and there are those that mix it up, all for their own personal reasons. No one should have to explain their motives or be forced to do what is "normal" to someone else.

Enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy. Live and let live.

jmski52

I believe if all these so called collectors of bullion were not buying bullion certified or mint bullion coins their monies would be spent into other coin purchases.The dealer prices for some coins would be lower and they would not seek a higher profit margin from their sales.It might not be necessarily be true in all cases but it is JMO.....


This is simply not the case. I guarantee you that when I spend money on a classic type coin, I consider the money gone, spent - never to be recovered. When I buy bullion, it makes me money - and that is the main point.

Now, it just happens that the bullion coins are quite attractive, have rarity, come in very high grades, and are sold with only a single layer of profit built into their cost structure. For me, that's a bunch of reasons to collect them, in addition to investing in them.

Classic coins have 50 years of dealer profits built into the price. If making money on coins is a big deal for you, doing it with classics is uphill all the way. Good Luck with that. Frankly, I'd rather enjoy my coins, and my bullion too.

jfoot13

<< <i>What are you basing your assumptions on? Anecdotal evidence or some hard statistical data? It sounds like a generalization and I'm just curious.

I am buying some silver bullion in the form of bars and junk silver periodically. But on the other hand, I'm going against the grain of collecting modern anything anymore. I've been selling off everything dated 1965 and after and buying high quality Morgans and capped bust halves. I'm tired of the plethora of Mint products and the congressional mandates to coin anything and everything.

Long wait on silver? I think not. We are not in the late 1970s and the Hughes brothers aren't manipulating the market. A lot of countries are buying up PMs like mad. I see a steady climb of both gold and silver with necessary, periodic corrections.

Like Ricko said, let people collect what they want and don't lament what might be a change in collecting habits. >>



who are these Hughes brothers ? I only remember Hunt brothers ...

Gemineye

jmski52
Let's draw the line now..I'm not talking about Classic bullion coins.If the Bullion buyers want to lump those coins into their group I'm not.To me those are Classic Coins..

To most of you my motivation is derived from the dry years that the Mint produced absolutely ...Nothing...but a Proof and an uncirculated set......Now after a few years ..OK ..a little more than a few ..it has grown into a ..damn..FLEA Market of whatever you want to call it.
I coud see if they wanted to continue with a purpose...BUT the purpose is Bullion.. Bullion..$$$$...A Bullion Flea Market.....

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>..it has grown into a ..damn..FLEA Market of whatever you want to call it.
I coud see if they wanted to continue with a purpose...BUT the purpose is Bullion.. Bullion..$$$$...A Bullion Flea Market..... >>

You don't have to buy anything from the mint that you don't want. You're probably only going to be disappointed, however, if you expect other people to want to collect the things you think they should and to agree to ignore the things you don't like.

Gemineye

<< <i>

<< <i>..it has grown into a ..damn..FLEA Market of whatever you want to call it.
I coud see if they wanted to continue with a purpose...BUT the purpose is Bullion.. Bullion..$$$$...A Bullion Flea Market..... >>

You don't have to buy anything from the mint that you don't want. You're probably only going to be disappointed, however, if you expect other people to want to collect the things you think they should and to agree to ignore the things you don't like. >>



Your asolutetly correct ..mrpotatoheadd..for a minute there I thought your eyes were put in the wrong spot or something ..cause you reversed what I said....All kidding aside ...your right I don't have to buy from them at all..but I do...I'm not dissappointed when I purchase from the Mint.In fact I look forward to ordering from them all the time and I have only once returned one item.I even got an order from them today which was unexpected and I opened the package knowing full well the contents would nullify any First Strike™ certification..

Deadhorse

<< <i>Anyone buying "bullion" now is in for a LONG wait to see any profits. IMHO

Bob >>





You been looking at any charts recently?

I bought a rather large batch two weeks ago and I'm already ahead several thousand $$.

Gemineye

Goodnight to all...see you tomorrow...