I would say that the SP Auhentic Rookie redemption woud be a good choice for Sid's and Ovenchkin's rookies. They are numbered out of 399. If we are talking goal scorers what abot Bretts old man the golden Jet. Not only was he a hell of a goal scorer the stars of today can learn a leeson from him about givin autographs(crosby excluded). He would nt leave until the last kid had one. I have met quite a few pros in my day but I will always remember meeting Bobby Hull he was a real giver back to the game. Personal life not included as I know all of the stories.
<< <i>I would say that the SP Auhentic Rookie redemption woud be a good choice for Sid's and Ovenchkin's rookies. They are numbered out of 399. >>
For key rookie card sets, PSA normally doesn't dip below a production of 999 or so.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Orr Vs Gretzky is always a debate that stirs emotions.
As always is the case in these type of debates I think the criteria used is crucial.
If you are talking about who has had the best career, it would probably be between Howe, Gretzky and Messier.
If you are talking about who is the best for one season or one game it would probably be Orr and than Lemieux.
Gretzky might have dominated the scoring race and the statistics but Orr dominated the GAME. There is a big difference. The entire play revolved around Orr.
When talking about Hall of Fame teammates Gretzky had two who actually produced almost as well, if not better, without him than with him in Kurri and Messier. At least by the numbers Espo is not a Hall of Famer without Orr.
Here are Messier's career stats: With Gretzky .47 goals per game .69 assists per game 747 total points Without Gretzky .35 goals per game .67 assists per game 1140 total points Play-Offs With Gretzky .55 goals per game .76 assists per game 157 total points Without Gretzky .37 goals per game .81 assists per game 138 total points
Messier is a Hall of Famer if he never played one game on Wayne's team and his statistics begin in 1988-89.
Kurri for his career without Gretzky averaged 1.27 points per game in Edmonton. Kurri for his career with Gretzky in Edmonton and L.A averaged 1.23 points per game.
Here are Espo's career stats: With Orr .73 goals per game .88 assists per game 1012 points in 625 games Without Orr .39 goals per game .49 assists per game 578 points in 657 games Play-Offs With Orr .75 goals per game .92 assists per game in 61 games Without Orr .25 goals per game .34 assists per game in 59 games
<< <i>Orr Vs Gretzky is always a debate that stirs emotions.
As always is the case in these type of debates I think the criteria used is crucial.
If you are talking about who has had the best career, it would probably be between Howe, Gretzky and Messier.
If you are talking about who is the best for one season or one game it would probably be Orr and than Lemieux.
Gretzky might have dominated the scoring race and the statistics but Orr dominated the GAME. There is a big difference. The entire play revolved around Orr.
When talking about Hall of Fame teammates Gretzky had two who actually produced almost as well, if not better, without him than with him in Kurri and Messier. At least by the numbers Espo is not a Hall of Famer without Orr.
Here are Messier's career stats: With Gretzky .47 goals per game .69 assists per game 747 total points Without Gretzky .35 goals per game .67 assists per game 1140 total points Play-Offs With Gretzky .55 goals per game .76 assists per game 157 total points Without Gretzky .37 goals per game .81 assists per game 138 total points
Messier is a Hall of Famer if he never played one game on Wayne's team and his statistics begin in 1988-89.
Kurri for his career without Gretzky averaged 1.27 points per game in Edmonton. Kurri for his career with Gretzky in Edmonton and L.A averaged 1.23 points per game.
Here are Espo's career stats: With Orr .73 goals per game .88 assists per game 1012 points in 625 games Without Orr .39 goals per game .49 assists per game 578 points in 657 games Play-Offs With Orr .75 goals per game .92 assists per game in 61 games Without Orr .25 goals per game .34 assists per game in 59 games >>
Great work, and very telling as to why Orr dominated more then anyone else. I wonder how Gretzky/Bernie Nichols stats would compare to Orr/Esposito.
Again, I'm saying that Gretzky was the best ever, but Orr was heads and shoulders talent wise above the players in his era then Gretzky was in his era. So all I'm saying is he dominated the game more then Gretzky, I'm not saying he was better then Gretzky.
~"I wonder how Gretzky/Bernie Nichols stats would compare to Orr/Esposito."~
If Bernie Nicholls were a baseball player there would be no doubt he was on the "juice" for the 1988-89 season.
Anyway, here are how his numbers stack up with Gretz and than pre-Gretz
With Gretzky .77 goals per game 1.02 assists per game in 126 games Without Gretzky .48 goals per game .65 assists per game in 508 games
What is overlooked with Nicholls is that he was a pretty good offensive player even without the Great One. Obviously, playing with Gretzky takes him to another stratosphere but he is better than a point a game player. In 11 of his first 12 seasons he had more than a point a game and very few players have ever started their career as quickly as Nicholls (14 goals, 18 assists in 22 games).
There might be a better example but off the top of my head the player I think who gains the most playing with somebody is Warren Young playing with Mario Lemieux.
In his one season as Mario's linemate Young picked up 40 goals in 80 games. In the rest of his career he scored 32 goals in 156 games.
<< <i> In nearly 1500 regular season games, The Great One couldn't find McSorley or Semenko 3 times. His "victims" were:
Doug Lecuyer (Chicago Blackhawks), March 14, 1980 Neal Broten (Minnesota), December 22, 1982 Bob Murray (Chicago), March 7, 1984
Yes, a bunch of brawling goons, the entire lot of them. >>
I love it.
As much as I admire Gretzky as a player, this is all too true. While I'm not a fan of the ritualized goon culture in Hockey, it's still the kind of game where a truly well rounded player (like Howe, Messier or Orr) needs, on occasion, to take care of himself. By himself.
Koufax is an excellent analogy for Bobby. Each sport seems to have a guy who was transcendently great for a few years, then suffered a debilitating injury that cut his career short. Gale Sayers also comes to mind.
As much as I admire Gretzky as a player, this is all too true. While I'm not a fan of the ritualized goon culture in Hockey, it's still the kind of game where a truly well rounded player (like Howe, Messier or Orr) needs, on occasion, to take care of himself.. >>
I disagree. Wayne Gretzky was the greatest ambassador hockey ever received. He is an absolute Canadian icon that is respected wherever he goes. The man is a gentleman who has helped the game of hockey and many unfortunate people along the way.
He took the game of hockey from the bench clearing brawl days of the 70's into the wonderful skating and passing game in the 80's. He was the sole reason Team Canada beat the Russians in the 87 Canada Cup, and he never dropped the gloves once in that tournament, nor did any other player. Only Canadians understand how much that tournament lifted that country, and Gretzky was the reason for it. Mario had a coming out party that tournament, and #99 was the reason why.
I have a PSA 8 OPC Federko and (hold on to your hats!) a PSA 8 U.D. Fetisov on the way back from PSA if anyone's interested.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
absolutely...been trying to get andy to get his butt going on this one. I will admit I do not know the guys from the 50's or before..... question: does the hof have a veterans comm?????? Since Hk has the coaches in the hof set...will this one inc them here also??
lets get going
local hero........adam oates is my fist vote
jay
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I don't really know much about the players whose rookie card fall pre 1980, so I'd definitely have to defer to someone else there. The list below is something I've been working off of and adding to for a while now. Obviously not every player here will make the HOF, but I think these are all good candidates. Guys like Crosby and Ovechkin need more time, but are well on their way. Thornton may need just 1-2 more good years:
1981 O-Pee-Chee Glenn Anderson 1981 O-Pee-Chee Dino Ciccarelli 1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe 1981 O-Pee-Chee Andy Moog 1983 O-Pee-Chee Phil Housley 1984 O-Pee-Chee Steve Yzerman 1984 O-Pee-Chee Chris Chelios 1984 O-Pee-Chee Doug Gilmour 1984 O-Pee-Chee Dave Andreychuk 1984 O-Pee-Chee Tom Barrasso 1987 O-Pee-Chee Luc Robitaille 1987 O-Pee-Chee Adam Oates 1987 O-Pee-Chee Mike Vernon 1988 O-Pee-Chee Brett Hull 1988 O-Pee-Chee Brendan Shanahan 1989 O-Pee-Chee Joe Sakic 1989 O-Pee-Chee Brian Leetch 1990 OPC Premier Curtis Joseph 1990 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr 1990 OPC Premier Mats Sundin 1990 OPC Premier Mike Modano 1990 Upper Deck Ed Belfour 1990 Upper Deck Pavel Bure 1990 Upper Deck Mark Recchi 1990 Upper Deck Igor Larionov 1990 Upper Deck Scott Niedermayer 1990 Score (Canadian) Martin Brodeur 1991 Upper Deck Dominik Hasek 1991 Upper Deck Niklas Lidstrom 1991 Upper Deck Teemu Selanne 1991 Upper Deck Peter Forsberg 1992 Upper Deck Chris Pronger
Tkachuk is a borderline candidate. I can go either way with him. Bondra I think has absolutely no shot. Ditto for Richter and BrindAmour.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I don't really know much about the players whose rookie card fall pre 1980, so I'd definitely have to defer to someone else there. The list below is something I've been working off of and adding to for a while now. Obviously not every player here will make the HOF, but I think these are all good candidates. Guys like Crosby and Ovechkin need more time, but are well on their way. Thornton may need just 1-2 more good years:
1981 O-Pee-Chee Glenn Anderson 1981 O-Pee-Chee Dino Ciccarelli 1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe 1981 O-Pee-Chee Andy Moog 1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe 1983 O-Pee-Chee Phil Housley 1984 O-Pee-Chee Steve Yzerman 1984 O-Pee-Chee Chris Chelios 1984 O-Pee-Chee Doug Gilmour 1984 O-Pee-Chee Dave Andreychuk 1984 O-Pee-Chee Tom Barrasso 1987 O-Pee-Chee Luc Robitaille 1987 O-Pee-Chee Adam Oates 1987 O-Pee-Chee Mike Vernon 1988 O-Pee-Chee Brett Hull 1988 O-Pee-Chee Brendan Shanahan 1989 O-Pee-Chee Joe Sakic 1989 O-Pee-Chee Brian Leetch 1990 OPC Premier Curtis Joseph 1990 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr 1990 OPC Premier Mats Sundin 1990 OPC Premier Mike Modano 1990 Upper Deck Ed Belfour 1990 Upper Deck Pavel Bure 1990 Upper Deck Mark Recchi 1990 Upper Deck Igor Larionov 1991 Upper Deck Dominik Hasek 1991 Upper Deck Niklas Lidstrom 1991 Upper Deck Teemu Selanne 1991 Upper Deck Peter Forsberg 1992 Upper Deck Chris Pronger
Tkachuk is a borderline candidate. I can go either way with him. Bondra I think has absolutely no shot. Ditto for Richter and BrindAmour. >>
Again, no love for Brodeur? Perhaps the greatest goaltender of all time and he doesn't even make your list?
I suggest you flog yourself 552 times with a wet noodle and then immediately add the 1990 Score Brodeur to your list.
I would also add Scott Neidermayer and remove one of the Kevin Lowe's. He's not getting in once, let alone twice!
Brodeur (1990 Score Canadian) and Niedermayer (1990 Upper Deck) I ,of course, agree with. They were just oversights on my part (flogging is underway). I'll edit the list.
I'm not sold on Lowe either. I think he has only a slim chance, but his name pops up in HOF discussions quite a bit.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Must be a NJ thing. Seems the Devils are always overlooked... >>
Well I am a Penguins fan...
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
While all of the players on my list will not be added, all have been discussed as potential candidates.
I can add a few players from the 70's whose names are talked about
70-71 OPC Wayne Cashman 74-75 OPC Rick Middleton 75-76 OPC WHA Mark Howe
From the 80's I think your list is good - I might add: 84-85 OPC Pat Verbeek 87-88 OPC Esa Tikkanen 87-88 OPC Claude Lemieux 87-88 OPC Vincent Damphousse 88-89 OPC Joe Nieuwendyk 88-89 OPC Pierre Turgeon 90-91 OPC Premier Jeremy Roenick 90-91 OPC Premier Petr Bondra 90-91 Score Eric Lindros 92-93 Upper Deck Paul Kariya
I think Turgeon is a solid candidate, and Lindros (though I hate his overrated butt) will garner some votes too. I know Vachon gets a lot of HOF chatter too.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I don't really know much about the players whose rookie card fall pre 1980, so I'd definitely have to defer to someone else there. The list below is something I've been working off of and adding to for a while now. Obviously not every player here will make the HOF, but I think these are all good candidates. Guys like Crosby and Ovechkin need more time, but are well on their way. Thornton may need just 1-2 more good years:
1981 O-Pee-Chee Glenn Anderson 1981 O-Pee-Chee Dino Ciccarelli 1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe 1981 O-Pee-Chee Andy Moog 1983 O-Pee-Chee Phil Housley 1984 O-Pee-Chee Steve Yzerman 1984 O-Pee-Chee Chris Chelios 1984 O-Pee-Chee Doug Gilmour 1984 O-Pee-Chee Dave Andreychuk 1984 O-Pee-Chee Tom Barrasso 1987 O-Pee-Chee Luc Robitaille 1987 O-Pee-Chee Adam Oates 1987 O-Pee-Chee Mike Vernon 1988 O-Pee-Chee Brett Hull 1988 O-Pee-Chee Brendan Shanahan 1989 O-Pee-Chee Joe Sakic 1989 O-Pee-Chee Brian Leetch 1990 OPC Premier Curtis Joseph 1990 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr 1990 OPC Premier Mats Sundin 1990 OPC Premier Mike Modano 1990 Upper Deck Ed Belfour 1990 Upper Deck Pavel Bure 1990 Upper Deck Mark Recchi 1990 Upper Deck Igor Larionov 1990 Upper Deck Scott Niedermayer 1990 Score (Canadian) Martin Brodeur 1991 Upper Deck Dominik Hasek 1991 Upper Deck Niklas Lidstrom 1991 Upper Deck Teemu Selanne 1991 Upper Deck Peter Forsberg 1992 Upper Deck Chris Pronger
Tkachuk is a borderline candidate. I can go either way with him. Bondra I think has absolutely no shot. Ditto for Richter and BrindAmour. >>
The 89-90 Topps was made in lesser quantity and is the harder to get in high grade then the 89-90 OPC. I would switch the sakic and leeth to the topps versions.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I didn't follow hockey intensely as a kid. Hockey in Los Angeles isn't the same as in Canda or Detroit or on the east coast.
But my favorite HOF rookies, post 80, were...
-81/82 Paul Coffey. Absolutely loved it. I bought one in 92, raw NM-MT for $80. Alot of money for a card at the time. I love the Oilers from that set. Such a great design, tough in high grades. And so many HOF'ers, that'd be my favorite team set from the 80's.
-84/85 Yzerman, loved. Just classic, like a Ripken rookie or the '89 Upper Deck Griffey.
-And the 88 Hull. The Topps version was good enough for me. The OPC version was almost mythical when hockey cards got really hot. Wasn't it one of the first hockey cards to be counterfeited? Besides the Gretzky rookie. That card was pratically untouchable. I never saw many of them. The Topps was a DP, so it seemed more available.
When I look at my cards now, that Hull image is still great.
And all the hype over the 90 rookie class, when the French Upper Deck Federov was selling for hundreds of dollars. And the hype over Eric Lindros. Its interesting to see who actually made the HOF, and who flamed out.
<< <i>To a lesser extent: bondra, roenick, JN, VD, and verbeek >>
Verbeek's been eligible for a while, and it doesn't look like he's getting in. Based on that, I'd say that Bondra, Roenick and Nieuwendyk will fall short too. All 500 goal scorers who were very good, but not dominant for any significant periods. Larmer had some nice seasons, but he won't get in. Hunter I doubt will even come close. Too much negative pub.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I have a question I am hoping somebody can help me out with.
What is the Al Arbour rookie card for registry purposes?
Is it card #37 from 53-54 parkhurst which has a picture of Bill Dineen but Arbours name and stats or is it card #38 which has a picture of Arbour with Dineen's name and stats.
This year's inductees will be announced today at 3:30 EST. I'm guessing Larionov, Oates, Gilmour and Anderson. Dino or Bure are other decent possibilities to be included in the maximum class of 4. Hopefully one of Dino or Anderson, two players who have been shafted for WAY too long, will finally get their due. None of these guys will be getting in next year when Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille, Leetch and Andreychuk are all first-time eligibles.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Wow, I'm really surprised that Larionov and Anderson were the only players to make it. I thought Oates was pretty much a lock too. This was a prime opportunity for the voters to get 4 overlooked players in (because of the strike 3 years ago), and they blew it. Nice to see Anderson finally get in though.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I still need to decide whether it is worth it to dig through storage to find the monster boxes of 1990-91 UD that've sitting for the past decade plus. Between case breaks and amassing, I'm pretty sure there are at least 50-100 of each low number and 200+ of each high number minus the major RC's of the day. My biggest concern is that those things tended to stick together if they sat for any length of time.
I dug out some of the 1989 UD baseball that I had and found that the lots that I had stored turned to "bricks." From over 120 Smoltz RC's there were only three that were able to be graded (1 PSA 9 and 2 PSA 10). I fear the same may be true of the Lirionov, Recchi, Richter, Niedermayer and other potential HOF RC's in those monster boxes. UGH! Thank goodness OPC holds up better!
Dig em out Scott...aside from sticking together those are beautiful cards. I looked through my old set while searching for the Larinov and the color and photography of the 90 and 91 Upper Deck cards are pretty fine. I've sent a bunch in for grading and they generally pull good grades and look good in slabs.
C56, V252, V128-1 sets Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
I picked up this card that I just had graded a PSA 6. It is a 1969 Swedish Williams sticker. I believe it is Kharlamov's rookie although the set registry incorrectly lists the 1979 Panini.
Cool. Those Swedish stickers are some of the most scarce and thus overlooked hockey issues of the 60s and 70s. (There are some Tretiak stickers that could be considered "rookies" in the '70 or '71 set.) Even the stickers issued for the world championships in the late 80s and early 90s are nearly impossible to find. I know there are some Yzerman stickers that I do not have.
This year's class will be announced on Tuesday, June 23rd. Three spots are an absolute lock (Yzerman, Hull and Leetch). Robitaille should get the fourth, but it could possibly go to Andreychuk. I'd be very surprised if any other players got in. Talk about a loaded class!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I agree on Yzerman and Hull, but I'm not so sure Leetch is a lock. I can even see voters splitting between Robitaille, Leetch, Andreychuk, and a couple of holdovers such that none of them gets in.
I kinda agree with you guys. I don't think Leetch should be a slam dunk first-rounder either. Compare his stats to Housley, who gets NO respect. But I'm going by what I've heard. Leetch was a big name with a squeaky clean image, so I doubt he'll have to wait past the first year. If I had to choose between him and Robitaille though, I'd go Luc all the way.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Personally, I would be surprised if Leetch is not elected.
He won the Conn Smythe once and the Norris twice and he was a great all-around defenseman.
If numbers were the only measuring stick, there are players who would be in already and players who are in, who wouldn't have ever had a sniff of the Hall of Fame.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
Besides his obvious HOF-caliber NHL career he was on the gold medal Team USA at the 1996 World Cup of Hockey and won a silver medal with Team USA at the 2002 Olympics. He having the New York media should also help his case.
No surprises this year. Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille and Leetch.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Comments
<< <i>I would say that the SP Auhentic Rookie redemption woud be a good choice for Sid's and Ovenchkin's rookies. They are numbered out of 399. >>
For key rookie card sets, PSA normally doesn't dip below a production of 999 or so.
As always is the case in these type of debates I think the criteria used is crucial.
If you are talking about who has had the best career, it would probably be between Howe, Gretzky and Messier.
If you are talking about who is the best for one season or one game it would probably be Orr and than Lemieux.
Gretzky might have dominated the scoring race and the statistics but Orr dominated the GAME. There is a big difference. The entire play revolved around Orr.
When talking about Hall of Fame teammates Gretzky had two who actually produced almost as well, if not better, without him than with him in Kurri and Messier. At least by the numbers Espo is not a Hall of Famer without Orr.
Here are Messier's career stats:
With Gretzky .47 goals per game .69 assists per game 747 total points
Without Gretzky .35 goals per game .67 assists per game 1140 total points
Play-Offs
With Gretzky .55 goals per game .76 assists per game 157 total points
Without Gretzky .37 goals per game .81 assists per game 138 total points
Messier is a Hall of Famer if he never played one game on Wayne's team and his statistics begin in 1988-89.
Kurri for his career without Gretzky averaged 1.27 points per game in Edmonton.
Kurri for his career with Gretzky in Edmonton and L.A averaged 1.23 points per game.
Here are Espo's career stats:
With Orr .73 goals per game .88 assists per game 1012 points in 625 games
Without Orr .39 goals per game .49 assists per game 578 points in 657 games
Play-Offs
With Orr .75 goals per game .92 assists per game in 61 games
Without Orr .25 goals per game .34 assists per game in 59 games
<< <i>Orr Vs Gretzky is always a debate that stirs emotions.
As always is the case in these type of debates I think the criteria used is crucial.
If you are talking about who has had the best career, it would probably be between Howe, Gretzky and Messier.
If you are talking about who is the best for one season or one game it would probably be Orr and than Lemieux.
Gretzky might have dominated the scoring race and the statistics but Orr dominated the GAME. There is a big difference. The entire play revolved around Orr.
When talking about Hall of Fame teammates Gretzky had two who actually produced almost as well, if not better, without him than with him in Kurri and Messier. At least by the numbers Espo is not a Hall of Famer without Orr.
Here are Messier's career stats:
With Gretzky .47 goals per game .69 assists per game 747 total points
Without Gretzky .35 goals per game .67 assists per game 1140 total points
Play-Offs
With Gretzky .55 goals per game .76 assists per game 157 total points
Without Gretzky .37 goals per game .81 assists per game 138 total points
Messier is a Hall of Famer if he never played one game on Wayne's team and his statistics begin in 1988-89.
Kurri for his career without Gretzky averaged 1.27 points per game in Edmonton.
Kurri for his career with Gretzky in Edmonton and L.A averaged 1.23 points per game.
Here are Espo's career stats:
With Orr .73 goals per game .88 assists per game 1012 points in 625 games
Without Orr .39 goals per game .49 assists per game 578 points in 657 games
Play-Offs
With Orr .75 goals per game .92 assists per game in 61 games
Without Orr .25 goals per game .34 assists per game in 59 games >>
Great work, and very telling as to why Orr dominated more then anyone else.
I wonder how Gretzky/Bernie Nichols stats would compare to Orr/Esposito.
Again, I'm saying that Gretzky was the best ever, but Orr was heads and shoulders talent wise above the
players in his era then Gretzky was in his era. So all I'm saying is he dominated the game more then Gretzky, I'm
not saying he was better then Gretzky.
If Bernie Nicholls were a baseball player there would be no doubt he was on the "juice" for the 1988-89 season.
Anyway, here are how his numbers stack up with Gretz and than pre-Gretz
With Gretzky .77 goals per game 1.02 assists per game in 126 games
Without Gretzky .48 goals per game .65 assists per game in 508 games
What is overlooked with Nicholls is that he was a pretty good offensive player even without the Great One. Obviously, playing with Gretzky takes him to another stratosphere but he is better than a point a game player. In 11 of his first 12 seasons he had more than a point a game and very few players have ever started their career as quickly as Nicholls (14 goals, 18 assists in 22 games).
There might be a better example but off the top of my head the player I think who gains the most playing with somebody is Warren Young playing with Mario Lemieux.
In his one season as Mario's linemate Young picked up 40 goals in 80 games.
In the rest of his career he scored 32 goals in 156 games.
<< <i> In nearly 1500 regular season games, The Great One couldn't find McSorley or Semenko 3 times. His "victims" were:
Doug Lecuyer (Chicago Blackhawks), March 14, 1980
Neal Broten (Minnesota), December 22, 1982
Bob Murray (Chicago), March 7, 1984
Yes, a bunch of brawling goons, the entire lot of them. >>
As much as I admire Gretzky as a player, this is all too true. While I'm not a fan of the ritualized goon culture in Hockey, it's still the kind of game where a truly well rounded player (like Howe, Messier or Orr) needs, on occasion, to take care of himself. By himself.
Koufax is an excellent analogy for Bobby. Each sport seems to have a guy who was transcendently great for a few years, then suffered a debilitating injury that cut his career short. Gale Sayers also comes to mind.
<< <i>
As much as I admire Gretzky as a player, this is all too true. While I'm not a fan of the ritualized goon culture in Hockey, it's still the kind of game where a truly well rounded player (like Howe, Messier or Orr) needs, on occasion, to take care of himself.. >>
I disagree. Wayne Gretzky was the greatest ambassador hockey ever received. He is an absolute Canadian icon that is respected
wherever he goes. The man is a gentleman who has helped the game of hockey and many unfortunate people along the way.
He took the game of hockey from the bench clearing brawl days of the 70's into the wonderful skating and passing game in the 80's.
He was the sole reason Team Canada beat the Russians in the 87 Canada Cup, and he never dropped the gloves once in that tournament, nor did any other player. Only Canadians understand how much that tournament lifted that country, and Gretzky was the reason for it.
Mario had a coming out party that tournament, and #99 was the reason why.
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
Weekend at Bernie's
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
I will admit I do not know the guys from the 50's or before.....
question: does the hof have a veterans comm?????? Since Hk has the coaches in the hof set...will this one inc them here also??
lets get going
local hero........adam oates is my fist vote
jay
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
1981 O-Pee-Chee Glenn Anderson
1981 O-Pee-Chee Dino Ciccarelli
1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe
1981 O-Pee-Chee Andy Moog
1983 O-Pee-Chee Phil Housley
1984 O-Pee-Chee Steve Yzerman
1984 O-Pee-Chee Chris Chelios
1984 O-Pee-Chee Doug Gilmour
1984 O-Pee-Chee Dave Andreychuk
1984 O-Pee-Chee Tom Barrasso
1987 O-Pee-Chee Luc Robitaille
1987 O-Pee-Chee Adam Oates
1987 O-Pee-Chee Mike Vernon
1988 O-Pee-Chee Brett Hull
1988 O-Pee-Chee Brendan Shanahan
1989 O-Pee-Chee Joe Sakic
1989 O-Pee-Chee Brian Leetch
1990 OPC Premier Curtis Joseph
1990 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr
1990 OPC Premier Mats Sundin
1990 OPC Premier Mike Modano
1990 Upper Deck Ed Belfour
1990 Upper Deck Pavel Bure
1990 Upper Deck Mark Recchi
1990 Upper Deck Igor Larionov
1990 Upper Deck Scott Niedermayer
1990 Score (Canadian) Martin Brodeur
1991 Upper Deck Dominik Hasek
1991 Upper Deck Niklas Lidstrom
1991 Upper Deck Teemu Selanne
1991 Upper Deck Peter Forsberg
1992 Upper Deck Chris Pronger
Tkachuk is a borderline candidate. I can go either way with him. Bondra I think has absolutely no shot. Ditto for Richter and BrindAmour.
<< <i>I don't really know much about the players whose rookie card fall pre 1980, so I'd definitely have to defer to someone else there. The list below is something I've been working off of and adding to for a while now. Obviously not every player here will make the HOF, but I think these are all good candidates. Guys like Crosby and Ovechkin need more time, but are well on their way. Thornton may need just 1-2 more good years:
1981 O-Pee-Chee Glenn Anderson
1981 O-Pee-Chee Dino Ciccarelli
1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe
1981 O-Pee-Chee Andy Moog
1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe
1983 O-Pee-Chee Phil Housley
1984 O-Pee-Chee Steve Yzerman
1984 O-Pee-Chee Chris Chelios
1984 O-Pee-Chee Doug Gilmour
1984 O-Pee-Chee Dave Andreychuk
1984 O-Pee-Chee Tom Barrasso
1987 O-Pee-Chee Luc Robitaille
1987 O-Pee-Chee Adam Oates
1987 O-Pee-Chee Mike Vernon
1988 O-Pee-Chee Brett Hull
1988 O-Pee-Chee Brendan Shanahan
1989 O-Pee-Chee Joe Sakic
1989 O-Pee-Chee Brian Leetch
1990 OPC Premier Curtis Joseph
1990 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr
1990 OPC Premier Mats Sundin
1990 OPC Premier Mike Modano
1990 Upper Deck Ed Belfour
1990 Upper Deck Pavel Bure
1990 Upper Deck Mark Recchi
1990 Upper Deck Igor Larionov
1991 Upper Deck Dominik Hasek
1991 Upper Deck Niklas Lidstrom
1991 Upper Deck Teemu Selanne
1991 Upper Deck Peter Forsberg
1992 Upper Deck Chris Pronger
Tkachuk is a borderline candidate. I can go either way with him. Bondra I think has absolutely no shot. Ditto for Richter and BrindAmour. >>
Again, no love for Brodeur? Perhaps the greatest goaltender of all time and he doesn't even make your list?
I suggest you flog yourself 552 times with a wet noodle and then immediately add the 1990 Score Brodeur to your list.
I would also add Scott Neidermayer and remove one of the Kevin Lowe's. He's not getting in once, let alone twice!
I'm not sold on Lowe either. I think he has only a slim chance, but his name pops up in HOF discussions quite a bit.
<< <i>Must be a NJ thing. Seems the Devils are always overlooked... >>
Well I am a Penguins fan...
I can add a few players from the 70's whose names are talked about
70-71 OPC Wayne Cashman
74-75 OPC Rick Middleton
75-76 OPC WHA Mark Howe
From the 80's I think your list is good - I might add:
84-85 OPC Pat Verbeek
87-88 OPC Esa Tikkanen
87-88 OPC Claude Lemieux
87-88 OPC Vincent Damphousse
88-89 OPC Joe Nieuwendyk
88-89 OPC Pierre Turgeon
90-91 OPC Premier Jeremy Roenick
90-91 OPC Premier Petr Bondra
90-91 Score Eric Lindros
92-93 Upper Deck Paul Kariya
<< <i>I don't really know much about the players whose rookie card fall pre 1980, so I'd definitely have to defer to someone else there. The list below is something I've been working off of and adding to for a while now. Obviously not every player here will make the HOF, but I think these are all good candidates. Guys like Crosby and Ovechkin need more time, but are well on their way. Thornton may need just 1-2 more good years:
1981 O-Pee-Chee Glenn Anderson
1981 O-Pee-Chee Dino Ciccarelli
1981 O-Pee-Chee Kevin Lowe
1981 O-Pee-Chee Andy Moog
1983 O-Pee-Chee Phil Housley
1984 O-Pee-Chee Steve Yzerman
1984 O-Pee-Chee Chris Chelios
1984 O-Pee-Chee Doug Gilmour
1984 O-Pee-Chee Dave Andreychuk
1984 O-Pee-Chee Tom Barrasso
1987 O-Pee-Chee Luc Robitaille
1987 O-Pee-Chee Adam Oates
1987 O-Pee-Chee Mike Vernon
1988 O-Pee-Chee Brett Hull
1988 O-Pee-Chee Brendan Shanahan
1989 O-Pee-Chee Joe Sakic
1989 O-Pee-Chee Brian Leetch
1990 OPC Premier Curtis Joseph
1990 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr
1990 OPC Premier Mats Sundin
1990 OPC Premier Mike Modano
1990 Upper Deck Ed Belfour
1990 Upper Deck Pavel Bure
1990 Upper Deck Mark Recchi
1990 Upper Deck Igor Larionov
1990 Upper Deck Scott Niedermayer
1990 Score (Canadian) Martin Brodeur
1991 Upper Deck Dominik Hasek
1991 Upper Deck Niklas Lidstrom
1991 Upper Deck Teemu Selanne
1991 Upper Deck Peter Forsberg
1992 Upper Deck Chris Pronger
Tkachuk is a borderline candidate. I can go either way with him. Bondra I think has absolutely no shot. Ditto for Richter and BrindAmour. >>
The 89-90 Topps was made in lesser quantity and is the harder to get in high grade then the 89-90 OPC.
I would switch the sakic and leeth to the topps versions.
Oatsie 10
But my favorite HOF rookies, post 80, were...
-81/82 Paul Coffey. Absolutely loved it. I bought one in 92, raw NM-MT for $80. Alot of money for a card at the time. I love the Oilers from that set. Such a great design, tough in high grades. And so many HOF'ers, that'd be my favorite team set from the 80's.
-84/85 Yzerman, loved. Just classic, like a Ripken rookie or the '89 Upper Deck Griffey.
-And the 88 Hull. The Topps version was good enough for me. The OPC version was almost mythical when hockey cards got really hot. Wasn't it one of the first hockey cards to be counterfeited? Besides the Gretzky rookie. That card was pratically untouchable. I never saw many of them. The Topps was a DP, so it seemed more available.
When I look at my cards now, that Hull image is still great.
And all the hype over the 90 rookie class, when the French Upper Deck Federov was selling for hundreds of dollars. And the hype over Eric Lindros. Its interesting to see who actually made the HOF, and who flamed out.
lowe is a no. did he ever even be in the top 10 in anything???
turgeon is a very strong candidate
To a lesser extent: bondra, roenick, JN, VD, and verbeek
I remember when lindros came up..he was touted as the next gretzky......he showed brilliance at times...but mostly how to hit your head.
Someone once said that mark howe has the most professional goals,, nhl and whl. Is that true???
I think the list is 90% complete for the modern guys........now we need a senior member to help with the pre 80 guys
is hunter, d wilson, or larmer worthy...I know they are not ist string???
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>To a lesser extent: bondra, roenick, JN, VD, and verbeek >>
Verbeek's been eligible for a while, and it doesn't look like he's getting in. Based on that, I'd say that Bondra, Roenick and Nieuwendyk will fall short too. All 500 goal scorers who were very good, but not dominant for any significant periods. Larmer had some nice seasons, but he won't get in. Hunter I doubt will even come close. Too much negative pub.
What is the Al Arbour rookie card for registry purposes?
Is it card #37 from 53-54 parkhurst which has a picture of Bill Dineen but Arbours name and stats or is it card #38 which has a picture of Arbour with Dineen's name and stats.
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
<< <i>What are the Anderson and Larinov rookie cards? >>
Larionov 1990-91 UD
Anderson 1981-82 OPC
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
I dug out some of the 1989 UD baseball that I had and found that the lots that I had stored turned to "bricks." From over 120 Smoltz RC's there were only three that were able to be graded (1 PSA 9 and 2 PSA 10). I fear the same may be true of the Lirionov, Recchi, Richter, Niedermayer and other potential HOF RC's in those monster boxes. UGH! Thank goodness OPC holds up better!
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
I picked up this card that I just had graded a PSA 6. It is a 1969 Swedish Williams sticker. I believe it is Kharlamov's rookie although the set registry incorrectly lists the 1979 Panini.
1979-80 Topps Hockey
1, 18, 23, 40, (48), 50, (51), (64), 70, (73), (78), 80, 85, 90, 100, 101, 120, 125, (127), 140, 150, 153, 155, 160, 164, 165, 170, 175, 180, 185, 191, (214), 220, 230, 242, 261, (264)
1985-86 OPC Hockey
9, 12, 25, 29, 34, 40, 51, 62, 68, 76, 84, 85, 95, 100, 114, 120, 122, 123, 126, 135, 136, 137, 151, 155, 176, 177, 187, 196, 205, 206, 216, 227, 237, 257, 258, 259, 262
1985-86 Topps Hockey
12, 16, 29, 34, 46, 58, 60, 67, 71, 75, 76, 84, 85, 90, 99, 109, 110, 111, 114, 116, 120, 121, 122, 123, 139, 140, 151, 153, 154, 155, 158
1987-88 OPC Hockey
2, 23, 36, 42, 47, 53, 56, 109, 120, 123, 163, 169, 205, 215, 239, 243
Thanks,
Brian
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
He won the Conn Smythe once and the Norris twice and he was a great all-around defenseman.
If numbers were the only measuring stick, there are players who would be in already and players who are in, who wouldn't have ever had a sniff of the Hall of Fame.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------