The career +400 for Howe is very impressive, but only 4 NHL All-Star Games and no Norris Trophy wins (I know, Housley didn't win one either) outweighs the good I think.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Jesus -- Clark Gillies and Bernie Federko are in!! >>
An absolute head scratcher on both if you ask me. Two players with a COMBINED 3 All-Star games. And they went in in the same class (2002). Wonder what the panel was smoking that year!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I forgot to comment on Housley but I do agree with Andy -- he's on my list of guys who belong in the Hall. But although Howe didn't win a Norris, he played in an era with some serious all timers. Other than the Carlyle and Wilson wins, every single year was won by a first ballot guy.
Both Housley and Howe suffered from that. There are a lot of forwards in the Hall who didn't win the Hart during the 80's and 90's with Lemieux and Gretzky around.
I almost feel like starting a "HOF snub" PSA RC set.
Rogie Vachon got the short end as well -- behind guys like Dryden, Parent, Cheevers, Esposito. He would already be a HOFer if not traded to the Kings.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Nice to see this thread at the top like Vince said.
I would think that Housely will get in eventually. Same with Howe. If you include Howe's WHA numbers he would be a virtual lock. Howe did finish second in Norris Trophy voting 3 times.
The Carlyle Norris Trophy was a joke. He was in the right place at the right time. Ray Bourque went his first 7 years in the league without a Norris. The Carlyle year was the one year, Bourque was hurt and played part of the season at forward.
Gillies HOF selection is interesting. Other than he was a member of a dynasty team it is hard to justify his selection. I really have no clue on that one. Maybe, the perception that he was one of the original "power" forwards who could enforce as well as score was a factor.
Kent Nilsson was an incredible offensive player and great with the puck. He is similar to Bernie Federko except for a couple of things. Their point per game averages are close but Federko has close to 500 more career points. Federko was a much better defensive player and face off man. Not that Federko was good defensively but Nilsson was as one dimensional as one dimensional gets and a lousy player in his own end. Federko had over 60 assists in a season 8 times and the best wingers he ever had were Wayne Babych and a couple of seasons with Joe Mullen. I can see Federko's selection in the Hall.
Hey Albie. Good to hear your opinion. I can certainly see why both guys are in -- my point being that by electing Federko and Gillies you automatically open the door to a lot of other guys. Anyone who played in the 90's and up didn't benefit from the freewheeling style those in the 70's-80's did. Federko's PPG+ average is comparable to .85ppg for the post 1990 guys.
There are some questionable vintage guys in there as well but the two recent ones that stick out for me are the above guys.
Housley had 1232pts in 1495 games -- as a defenceman. Let him in already! Ditto for Gilmour and Oates.
Unless you take back the borderline guys of course.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
First let me say it is nice to see a Hockey HOF thread active on these boards.
Second, I have just recently started buying NHL Hockey hall of fame rookie cards in PSA 9 or better condition (for the 80s rookies) and then PSA 8 or 8.5 for the 70s. I have decided to focus on the 1st ballot players with a few added exceptions and figure I will start with the 80s late 70s to start. I have scoured ebay and find it few and far between that a card comes up. Do you guys know of any other place to buy?
Howe has definitely been jobbed in regard to both the HHOF and the Norris Trophy.
Having bled orange and black since 1971, IMHO, with apologies to Bobby Clarke, Bernie Parent and others, Howe has been the best player to wear the Flyers' uniform. In his peak years from 82 to 88, he practically never made a mistake and his +/- bears this out. I am still a bit baffled by him not winning at least one Norris during that stretch, particularly 82-83,85-86, 86-87. In 1985-86, he was +85 when the team in total was +92. If his back had not given out, he would already be in.
Matt, a lot of the cards you're looking for a TOUGH. Even if you were looking for lesser HOF'ers ('74 Salming, '74 Shutt, '74 Gainey and '75 Gillies), you'd still have to pony up some big $. I've used VCP and the set registry to contact collectors about cards I'm interested in buying, and it's worked a few times. You may want to try that. Good luck in your search!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Matt, a lot of the cards you're looking for a TOUGH. Even if you were looking for lesser HOF'ers ('74 Salming, '74 Shutt, '74 Gainey and '75 Gillies), you'd still have to pony up some big $. I've used VCP and the set registry to contact collectors about cards I'm interested in buying, and it's worked a few times. You may want to try that. Good luck in your search! >>
Thanks for the help. I actually just finished doing that.
I am more than willing to pay the big bucks needed for the cards as long as the present the way I want them too. There was a PSA 9 Coffey rookie on ebay that ended last week and I set my snipe $25.00 higher than the highest it had ever sold for (according to VCP) and I was outbid. I guess the other guy wanted it just a little bit more.
Oh well, the search is fun as it make the payoff even better!
Matt - One important thing with these cards is that they seldom come up for true auction anymore so when they do, I think people are willing to pay more considering how long they have had to wait.
georgebailey2 - I can see your point about the Norris, but the unfortunate part for Howe is that he chose to have his best seasons when somebody else put up probably an even more dominating season. Had he had his best season in 1983-84 he would have probably won the Norris.
Those were some tough votes. 1982-83 - Howe 20 goals 47 assists 67 points +47 15 even strength goals - Bourque 22 goals 51 assists 73 points +49 15 even strength goals - Bourque did miss 17 games. - Coffey 29 goals 67 assists 96 points +52 20 even strenght goals - Langway 3 goals 29 assists 32 points +0
If you look purely on the stats it is really close. Anyone of the four could have won. That is completely giving the benefit of the doubt to Langway as an incredible defensive player. Interestingly, Howe finished with more votes than Langway for 1st team all-star. Fans of Howe, Bourque and Coffey could have been equally upset their favourite player did not win. At the time, I remember being upset Bourque did not win, but thinking how can you truly evaluate Langways D.
1985-86 I think Howe picked the worst year possible to have a phenomenal season. -Coffey 48 goals 90 assists 138 points +61 30 even strength goals 9 short handed goals - Howe 24 goals 58 assists 82 points +85 13 even strength goals 7 short handed goals As much as I think Howe is better in is own end than Coffey it is virtually impossible to ignore Coffey's totals. There would have been a major uproar if Howe had won the Norris.
1986-87 Bourque 23 goals 72 assists 95 points +44 16 even strength goals Howe 15 goals 43 assists 58 points +57 9 even strength goals Given the relative strengths of their teams Bourques +/- is more impressive and he is far superior to Howe in the offensive stats. Bourques team scored only 25 more goals than they allowed and no other player was more than a +25. I am not completely sold on the idea of using +/- as an evaluation tool, but in most of these cases (other than Langway) it looks okay.
Also, I know Howe is often overlooked in these discussions but do you really think he was a better player than Bobby Clarke? Clarke won MVP's in a league that featured Bobby Orr and there would be a great argument that Clarke was the most fierce competitor of all-time. I am not a Flyers fan but to me Bobby Clarke was an unbelievable hockey player in all respects.
I realize he picked a bad time to have great seasons. I think the one where he had the best chance was the year Langway won. Although Coffey's defensive liabilities (relative to the other top defensemen) were well known at the time and Howe dominated the ice so much in 85-86 that it would not have been a complete shock had Howe won.
With regard to Howe and Clarke, perhaps it was by seeing Howe as a college student/young adult gave me a different perspective compared to a 10-14 year old. Clarke won the MVP because he was the heart of the Flyers in a way that no one else has probably been to any other team....ever. He was a truly skilled player but his leadership, particularly with THAT team, made him league MVP. Clarke did not dominate games. Howe dominated games and was the primary reason for that club's success during that period. He was their Ray Bourque. He never seemed to make a mistake.
So let me rephrase: Howe was most talented Flyer to fully execute that talent on the ice. Clarke was the most important player in Flyers history and taking the goalies out of the equation, the third most talented player in team history. Lindros was the most talented but did not get to fully exploit his talent.
I love that Flyer passion. Pissed me off when they eliminated the Habs last year but they have a great team again.
Howe deserves to get in. It's the WHA holding him back. Can't think of any other reason. Omissions of guys like Howe, J.C. Tremblay and Vachon is one of the reasons the voting system gets under my skin. Instead of trying to let in every single recently eligible player, they need to address the deserving guys from the past.
Now here's a question: Should Tom Barrasso get in? (I know, I know, he's another of the bloody modern guys.)
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Growing up I thought Bobby Clarke was the cats meow. ....and of course Bobby Orr (the best I ever saw- sorry wayne) A healthier Orr would be like what if Ted Williams didn't give up 5 of his peak years to the service. I don't discount that or anyone of the true heroes that went into service. In my eyes that just raises Ted and others to a whole new level.
Howe better than him ??? Not that Howe wasn't good. He was so. I would say at some point he will get into te HOF.
Still looking for a nice 8x10 of Gordie with his sons signed. I have seen them out there.
Barasso has a 25% chance at best. A few good years doen't make a HOFer. Vince why Vachon? I know his cards get decent $ and that usually means HOF status. I would place him in the Mike Vernon category just looking at the stats. I know R V has one vezina.
When guys like Brodeur are coming up in the near future with monster numbers...how do you then put in the borderline guys?
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I'm with you Jay. I don't see Vachon as hall-worthy. As a Pens fan I wouldn't mind seeing Barrasso get in, but I think he's at best a borderline candidate.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Guys, I agree on Barrasso. I think he's a borderline guy at best although I'd put him in above Vernon.
Vachon was a great goalie, make no mistake about that. He's head and shoulders above guys like Vernon and Barrasso. He did win a couple of Cups with the Habs but his LA years killed the stats. Hasek and Brodeur are surefire 1st ballot guys so I don't compare Vachon there.
One thing -- Hasek was a freak but couldn't get his teams a Cup until Detroit took him on. Bourque was the same in Boston. Vachon won with the Habs and then got traded to Siberia when Dryden came along.
I see Vachon as one of the clearcut HOF snubs, with JC Tremblay and Mark Howe as well. Might have to dig up the spreadsheet with the whole list of questionables.
Oh and no doubt Orr was better than Howe. Not sure where that came from.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
I had mentioned Orr...but it was in the context of him being the greatest HK player ever, IMO. I had said sorry wayne.... I was able to see Gretzky's whole carear and only part of Bobby's and refering to all the past films.
We had a channel here at one time that showed past games from the 50's and 60's Watching Gordie skate for a whole period and not just a highlight was awesome. toooo bad they stopped. Not enough Canucks around here..even though we do have the Devils AHL team here.
I really don't know enough about HK to pick out HOF snubs from the 60's and before.
Vachon does have similar numbers to Grant Fuhr
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
~~~~"So let me rephrase: Howe was most talented Flyer to fully execute that talent on the ice. Clarke was the most important player in Flyers history and taking the goalies out of the equation, the third most talented player in team history. Lindros was the most talented but did not get to fully exploit his talent." ~~~~
Okay, got it now. Good point.
In Ken Dryden's book "The Game", which in my mind is the best hockey book ever written he stated that he has only seen two players dominate a game. "One was Orr, the other Bobby Clarke. Clarke, a fierce, driven man, did it by the unrelenting mood he gave to a game, a mood so strong it penetrated his team and stayed on the ice even when he did not. Orr did it in another way."
Since you mentioned Lindros - do you think he belongs in the HOF?
<< <i> Since you mentioned Lindros - do you think he belongs in the HOF? >>
Probably, yes. Too bad about his head and I'm not just talking concussions.
Things started to go wrong both phyically and mentally when he held out, I think prior to the 97-98 season, and wanted to be the highest paid player in the league. In the public forum, Clarke simply challenged that in order to be paid the highest, you need to play like you deserve to be paid the highest. Clarke was right but it started the rift that only got worse with the onset of injuries during the next few seasons culminating with the Steven's hit. (Different discussion but in light of the Chara hit last week, I wish the NHL had done a better job in the past for penalizing players that had intent to injure. While I think that Chara should have received some suspension - due to the result not the hit as anywhere else on the ice, I doubt even an interference call would have been made. On the other hand, open ice hits where a player tees up a guy whose head is down is clearly an attempt to injure. Steven's hit on Lindros, while a "legal" hit, wasn't made to knock the puck off of Lindros' stick but to knock the head off of Lindros' body. A deliberate match penalty. Ok, got that out of my system...I'm done ranting.)
Interesting take from Dryden on Clarke. I'll grab my copy of "The Game" and re-read that section. When I think of dominate, I think of controlling the flow of the play when the player is on the ice - like Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux. That perspective is interesting, although I think Esposito showed that type of dominance with Clarke for a week in September 1972 in Moscow.
With regard to Orr vs. Gretzky, all I can say is: Gretzky is..........well.....Gretzky! It is all documented in the Gretzky Book........I mean NHL Record Book.
<< <i>Since you mentioned Lindros - do you think he belongs in the HOF? >>
I have always wondered about this. I think eventually he will get in.
I just looked up his career stats and he only once...yup, once....played over 80 games in a season (over a 13 season career) and he played over 70 only 3 other times. Talk about a fragile player.
<< <i>With regard to Orr vs. Gretzky, all I can say is: Gretzky is..........well.....Gretzky! It is all documented in the Gretzky Book........I mean NHL Record Book. >>
100% agreed. I think it's silly to even CONSIDER anyone besides Gretzky as the greatest hockey player of all time. He did it all . Period.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
georgebailey2 - I have always been undecided on Lindros. If he goes in, fine, if he does not, no big deal.
You mean every hit Scott Stevens made was not clean. According to Scott Gomez of Montreal, "Gomez, 31, played five seasons in New Jersey with defenceman Scott Stevens, the most fearsome, most punishing bodychecker of his day. "One thing about (Stevens), when I played with him - every hit was clean," he said."
Oh, and in my opinion the Stevens hit on Lindros was dirty but the hit on Kariya was far worse. I do agree with you, though, the purpose was to separate head from body.
Lindros is an interesting one -- Neely got in and I think so will Bure. So on that basis so should Lindros. He fire burned brightest for only a few years but he was a dominant player. Couldn't stand the guy and his attitude but can't deny his impact on the game. As hard as it is to say it (and I didn't think this way last year), I think Lindros deserves to get in.
The debate about who the best was has no real winner. I hate comparing eras. Howe was the best in the 50's, Orr had the mid 60's to early 70's, Gretzky owned the 80's and a fourth guy we can't forget Lemieux was the 90's stud. And that's discounting a goalie from the discussion.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Vince is absolutely right. This discussion is who is #1 or 2 has no winner. Bothe were phenominal. I place Mario #3. With all due respect I loved Gordie and don't know all the older guys enough to rank them.
Comparing a defenseman with a center.............and then comparing offensive numbers. Gretzky relatively shielded from the brutals of HK....Orr a target.
I know Gretzky made everyone better but he played with Coffee,Kuri,Anderson, and one of the greatest also Messier. Many think Lowe is a HOFer also. 4 maybe 5 HOFERS to play with. Orr had basically only Espo. Lets see Espo. .......55,53,and 61 points and then gets traded to Boston with Orr. Points 84,126,99,152,133145,127,83 (as Orr is really hurting) and then downward. Orr created a HOFER. "he did it all." was he a good penalty killer? Naw. Could he beat Orr in a fantasy one on one? ..Naw Did he ever win a Selke award? Naw
I spent a lot of time in Detroit (just across the street from Lindros and a huge HK town) when Lindros was coming up. Everyone was saying he will be even better than Gretzky. Then when he snubs the Nordiques it was a big let down and the public started to say some bad things. He spent his entire HK carear doing it his way. He was great for a few short years then just good. The talent was definately there. Had he calmed it down this discussion wouldn't even take place. Did anyone see the award banquet where he accepte dhis only Hart trophy? He was bawling his brains out..so he does have a gentler side to him. As it is I think he was borderline. I say Lindros is 50-50 at best. Bure for a shortened carear was far more dominating.
Thats just my opinion. Silly ole me !!!!
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Jay, you silly, silly dude! LOL. By "he did it all", I meant that Gretzky has the single-season records, the career records, the championships, he made his teammates better, etc. What matters more than championships and records? I understand that Orr was dominant, but to call a player who only had 7 or so great years the best ever has always made me scratch my head. And I know a LOT of people are with you in putting Orr ahead of Gretz. To me, I don't care that Gretzky wasn't a great defensive player. He didn't need to be. The thing that stands out most about him is how much he consistently out-pointed the #2 scorer when he was consistently leading the league in scoring. I mean there was always a huge gap. That shoots a hole in the whole offensive era thing because Gretz stood out by a mile. This is always a great debate. I grew up a Pens fan so I love Lemieux too, but Gretz was and will always be the man.
Also, if you believe Orr turned Espo into a HOF'er (which I respectfully disagree with), then why not give credit to Gretzky for helping do the same for Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, etc? Glenn Anderson doesn't sniff the HOF with Gretzky.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm only kinda messin w ya. I did mention Gretzky made everyone else better. Many people say Gretzky was a better passer than goal scorer. I can remember watching a game w my mom who new nothing about HK. Gretzky made a pass to Messier that dropped my jaw. 4 in a straight line. Gretzky passed the puck only about 1 foot by and off 2 defenders skates and just perfect to a outstreched messier stick (about 1/2 a rink) completely straight forward who didn't have to slow down on the breakaway. Goal. How he saw it coming from directly behind him is beyond me !!! I can remeber saying only Gretzky could have made that pass...and it took a great messier to handle it and score. One of the greatest plays I ever saw.
My comparison is merely peak vs peak. Remember Orr had jelly knees for 1/2 his still short carear. A 1975 Orr is no comparison. All the HOFers that played w Orr in the Canada cups remember Orr sitting on the bench and in such pain he barely could put his skates on...then going out there and being the best player on the ice.
And once Phil espo was traded to the Rangers...hes back to a 75 point man.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I certainly know that Jay. Normally I make a concerted effort not to come off too opinionated. I just feel very strongly that Gretzky is right there with Babe Ruth as the the most dominant team sport athletes ever. Wilt Chamberlain is a close third. Don Hutson and Jim Brown can battle it out for fourth.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Jay -- You say without Orr Espo was a 65 pt guy. OK it was actually 61 in 69 games (66-67) but good enough for 7th in league scoring and 4 pts from 4th. The next year he had 84 pts and finished 2nd, 3 pts out of 1st. In 68 he finished 1st with 126pts. Orr wasn't in the top 10 for any of those years. In 69 Orr won the scoring title by 21 pts over Espo, then in 70 Espo beat Orr by 13, in 71 Espo beat Orr by 16, in 72 espo beat Clarke by 26 and Orr by 29, in 73 espo beat Orr by 23. In 1974 it was back to Orr beating Espo by 8.
Using the above stats one could also say that without Espo, Orr wasn't an offensive superstar.
The numbers don't always tell the tale -- Orr won the scoring title twice, AS A DEFENSEMAN, so he's obviously superhuman and one of the top 5 players of all time. Espo was a legitimate 1st ballot HOFer and certainly made Orr better but not top 5 all time.
Andy -- Gretzky was certainly dominant but Mario Lemieux interrupted the Great One's scoring title run while Wayne was in his prime. I put Lemieux #1 on the list of hockey talents. I get grief for that position but he performed superhuman feats with a supporting cast on retreads and wannabe's. I would've loved to see the carnage inflicted on the scoring records if Jagr had arrived in 1985 instead of 1991. Gretzky certainly had the better career but Lemieux is the guy I'd pick for 1 game or 1 injury free season. He also saved hockey in Pittsburgh when he could've left town.
As for the most dominant team sport athlete ever -- look up cricket's Don Bradman. He was the original superfreak.
Just some opinions. I also think leaving Sawchuk, Plante, Hainsworth, Dryden and Roy out of the best player debates is wrong.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Clearly at least 1/2 of what I said was busting on Andy. I truely believe Orr was the best. On any given day I agree I want supermario out there if it can't be a peak Bobby. I grew up a big Boston fan and loved Espo so don't get me wrong...he was tremendous.
On Jagr..I can remeber watching him as a fresh 17 year old and remember saying he was gonna be a superstar. He was something to watch. For mario to come back like he did elevated him above hof...a true legend.
Vince...cricket ??? Is that played on horseback? Do the make cricket cards? I know they make Kung Fu cards so grasshopper does have a RC.
On any given day a hot goalie can dominate a game. The recent olympics showed that. I never saw sawchuk or hainesworth play. I know they are recognized as 2 of the all time greats.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
~~~~~"On any given day a hot goalie can dominate a game."~~~~~
A hot goalie does not dominate a game. He can dominate a result but not the game itself.
Nice to have the hockey thread on the front page. Often overlooked in discussing Gretzky is the true greatness of his teammates. Obviously, it helps playing with Wayne but at least 3 of his teammates were first ballot HOF locks and top 50 NHL players without Wayne. Here are some numbers from players in the last season with Wayne and their first season without.
Paul Coffey - Last season with Gretzky 59 games 17 goals 50 assists 67 points First season w/o Gretzky 46 games 17 goals 50 assists 67 points
Coffey is a HOFer without Gretzky and the second best offensive defensemen to ever live.
Jari Kurri - Last season with Gretzky 80 games 43 goals 53 assists 96 points First season w/o Gretzky 76 games 44 goals 58 assists 102 points
Kurri is a HOFer without Gretzky.
Esa Tikkanen - Last season with Gretzky 80 games 23 goals 51 assists 74 points - First season w/o Gretzky 67 games 31 goals 47 assists 78 points
Tikkanen while not quite a HOFer is a first class pest and a heckuva hockey player.
Craig Simpson - Last season with Gretzky 59 games 43 goals 21 assists 64 points First season w/o Gretzky 66 games 35 goals 41 assists 76 points
Glenn Anderson - Last season with Gretzky 80 games 38 goals 50 assists 88 points - First season w/o Gretzky 79 games 16 goals 48 assists 64 points
Anderson is probably not a HOFer without Wayne because his production on the PP was severely curtailed. However, his linemate was Messier not Wayne. An argument could be made that it was Messier who made Anderson a HOFer and not Gretzky.
Gretzky had the second best player in the league playing on his team (Messier), the best offensive defensemen (Coffey) and the best two way forward (Kurri).
After Gretzky left Edmonton, Messier continued his dominant play. In fact after that time, Messier won 2 Cups, Wayne won 0. Messier won 2 Hart Trophies and Wayne won 1. Messier was selected to the First All-Star team twice and Wayne once. If you take Mario Lemieux at face value, Wayne's MVP in this time was a joke. Mario had the same number of assists as Wayne but scored 31 more goals that season. Wayne won it because of the improvement of the Kings but he had better teammates than Mario. I know this sounds crazy and ridiculous but other than Bernie Nicholls who has seen his numbers seriously rise stricly from being on the same team with Wayne?
I understand Gretzky had the greatest career of anybody. He also had superb teammates who complemented his game. An argument could be made that from the time, Gretzky left Edmonton until the time he retired that Mark Messier was a better hockey player.
Vince - I would really like to hear how you rank the goalies you listed. Especially Roy.
Good rundown on Gretzky's teamates. Bottom line: that much talent = Dynasty
I agree with ARO as I did not state correctly what I meant. A goalie doesn't carry the puck or control his team's scoring. So he personnaly cannot dominate. He merely can control the outcome as stated.
On goalies: I was talking to a husband of my wife's good friend recently. He is an amateur goalie...and he said that a few years back he sat right next to bobby hull at a charity dinner (btw-he said he was an awesome great guy-he graciously signed for everyone) and as a goalie he asked hull who the best goalies he ever played against were. His answer: Glen Hall the most ferocious goalie ever and T espo. Espo had the best glove ever.
What do you guys think of Mark Recchi? lot of points, Didn't win any individual award or dominate. Just did it well for a long time. Is he a hofer?
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I have to respectfully disagree regarding goalies not dominating games. The argument that a goalie doesn't carry the puck and therefore doesn't score as a validation for them not dominating just doesn't make sense. The same could be said that a player doesn't control the goals against therefore can't really dominate. No player can actually dominate a game like a goalie can since they're on the ice for a maximum of 20-30 minutes. Goalies play the full 60.
I'd agree that a dominating goalie game is not as common as a player dominating but then again there are 2 goalies and 40 players so it's statistically bound to be that way.
Hasek and Roy regularly dominated games -- and I mean that literally. They personally dominated the action, the result, the outcome and the highlights. When a player (goalie, defenseman, forward) forces the other team to change their style or so intimidates that opposing players do stupid things then they are dominating. I can't remember the number of times guys made an extra pass, or two, or three to try and get the perfect shot against Roy. Then there are the unbelievable saves that make it seem like he knew where the puck was going. No normal person could make the saves he did. But he did, over and over and over. Hasek too, sometimes in almost circus-like fashion.
There are times goalies can dominate for weeks at a time. Roy in 94 during his OT winning streak on the way to the Cup or against the Panthers while sweeping the finals with the Avs. Dryden had a few cruel periods against the Bruins in the 70's. Parent with the Flyers. The all-timers were all unbeatable at times and that's dominance to me -- using any definition of the word.
If you want to say they couldn't score goals then fine, that's true -- but forwards/defensemen can't stop pucks either so it's a wash.
Jay -- you mention Espo. He was an awesome goalie and well ahead of his time. But since you mention it, his stats are very comparable to Rogie Vachon's:
Vachon also won 3 Cups with the Habs although Dryden played all the games in 1971. Espo had none.
Espo played in a big market fior an Original 6 team and was more flamboyant. Vachon deserves to be in there as much as Espo does. He's not a bubble guy -- just a flatout snub.
Recchi -- well if Andreychuk ever gets in then MR can start thinking about it. But before that happens, Bure, Gilmour, Oates, my dog Monty and the mailman's 3-legged cat will get in too. A no for me. Having said that, he is pretty close to a PPG player over his career so pretty impressive.
Albie, you asked how I'd rank the goalies I mentioned. Well here goes:
Roy, Sawchuk, Dryden, Hainsworth, Plante -- and you can throw in Hasek at the end too. It's hard to do it objectively because of the different eras but Roy gets the nod from me because he's the best "money" goalie of all time and just plain won. The 2 Cups with Montreal were 99% Roy -- once is incredible but twice? Ludicrous. Throw in the 2 other Cups with Colorado and his resume is freaky. If records were important to him he could've played 4-5 more seasons and won another 150-200 games. In his last season he posted a 2.18GAA playing in 63 games. I love that he went out on top. I can also think of 4-5 other goalies who could be on that list -- Vezina, Hall, Brodeur, Parent, Bower.
But none above Roy. IMHO of course.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Since I do respect Vince's opinion on HK, it might be time to start looking for a Rogie RC.
Dryden was mentioned as an all time great. Can't 100% agree more.......I am not far from Cornell at all....and a home state team And 1/2 drive from Union and RPI...bot having great years. Cornell in the late 60's and early 70's was tremendous. 1970 Champs. He played 8 years and won the Vezina trophy 5 times (4 straight). That is a higher % than Gretzky's hart's.
I was wondering......I know he's short on NHL coaching....but is Ned Harkness a coaching HOFER. I know BK puts in college coaches.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Vince - Thanks for the response. I think it is very difficult to rank the goalies. I can see where many people rank Roy #1 but I think that is in part due to your mention of him basically stealing two Cups for Montreal. I disagree with that reasoning. In 1986 the Canadiens were favoured in every series but the Stanley Cup Final. They were the better team and had home ice right through until the final. Yes, Montreal was only a very good team but they were better than virtually all of their play-off opponents. In the 1993 Cup it was the same story. Montreal only had to go on the road once and that was in round 1 against Quebec. In all of the other series they were favoured. Yes, Roy was spectacular but it was a lot easier to be spectacular against Buffalo and the Islanders than say, Boston and Pittsburgh. Montreal had superior teams to everybody they played.
I also point to Roy's record in Game 7's when the season was on the line: 1986 Hartford at Montreal W 2-1 a brilliant performance in OT 1987 Quebec at Montreal W 5-3 solid performance 1991 Montreal at Boston L 1-2 outgoaltended by Andy Moog and allows a the winning goal on a slapshot from outside the blueline by Cam Neely 1992 Hartford at Montreal W 3-2 a brilliant performance in 2OT 1994 Montreal at Boston L 3-5 awful performance 1998 Edmonto at Colorado L 0-4 allowed 4 goals on 17 shots 1999 Colorado at Dallas L 1-4 allowed 4 goals on 25 shots 2000 Colorado at Dallas L 2-3 average performance 2001 Los Angeles at Colorado W 5-1 great performance 2001 New Jersey at Colorado W 3-1 solid perfromance 2002 Los Angeles at Colorado W 4-0 superb performance 2002 San Jose at Colorado W 1-0 superb performance 2002 Colorado at Detroit L 0-7 6 goals against on 16 shots in half a game 2003 Minnesota at Colorado L 2-3 decent performance
So what are we left with for game 7's - A record of 7-7 - 7-2 at home when favoured and 0-5 on the road when needed to steal a series. It would seem to me that the greatest money goaltender of all-time would be better than .500 in game 7's and certainly able to steal at least one road game.
Personally, I would take Hasek and Dryden over Roy in a big game.
I find it hard to rank Vachon. He was so amazing in the Canada Cup in 1976 when the whole country got to see him play after him toiling in L.A. Unfortunately, for me, I can still remember him playing absolutely terrible for the Bruins in the early 80's. I think his save percentage was the worst of all-time. Still, you make a good comparison with Tony Esposito.
Andy, great research but I must disagree. In '86 and '93 while you can say the Habs were favoured in most of the individual series, they weren't juggernauts by any means. And a dominating performance is a dominating performance -- doesn't really matter who's favored. Roy carried the team on his back -- plain and simple.
The game 7 record? Well it's certainly a good point but not really defining in my opinion. The 2-1 loss -- hard to call it being outdueled when you allow only 2 goals. How did you determine his actual play in those games? Do have notes from them or did you watch the games again? I would love to have copies of those performances! I certainly agree that Detroit schooled him and if there's one team that he would love to have played better against it's the Wings.
As for Hasek, I also think he was a freak but he didn't perform any magical runs. He could carry his team for a bit but not to the Holy Grail -- except with a loaded team in Detroit. Dryden is a good one though -- he has always suffered in comparisons because of the allstar team around him.
I still take Roy though. You can't win 'em all but in this era, with what he had to work with, 4 Cups is awesome. The Colorado ones were not as unexpected but still some great performances.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
All good points. I can see the logic behind picking Roy as the best goalie of all-time and given the Cups and consistency during the season it is an easy argument that can be made..
In regard to your points - The Canadiens were certainly not a juggernaut in 1986 and Roy was great. No question. In 1993 they were a pretty strong team, and other than Pittsburgh, who they had the good fortune of not playing, were in a group of 5 or 6 teams that could be called legitamate Cup contenders. My point, was that yes he was great, but he did not win the series by himself. In last years play-off Halak "stole" two series against Washington and Pittsburgh two vastly superior teams. Roy did not do that, nor as he ever won a game seven on the road.
As for the game 7's. The games and series against Boston, I have watched and re-watched. Roy's post-season performance against Boston is not great - the Habs were 3-5 in series against Boston with him in net. In most of the series losses he was outgoaltended. For what it is worth, I never worried with Roy in net that the Bruins were in trouble. I never felt he would be the reason the Bruins lost. In the 2-1 game seven I referred to - it was a 0-0 game into the second. Dave Christian scored a goal from the top of the circle with no screen. In a 0-0 game that was big. However, with the Bruins up 1-0, Cam Neely scored a PP goal where he started his windup from center and just outside the blueline blew it by Roy. The Habs came back with a goal mouth scramble goal late and fell 2-1 in a game that was pretty even - shots were 36-33 Montreal. Both goalies played well but the difference in the game was Moog. The other game seven loss to the Bruins - he let in some more bad goals (Ted Donato beat him with a slapshot from the blueline) in a game he was outgoaltended by the immortal Jon Casey. Some of the other games I remember and some I was going by the numbers. My point with the game seven's was that his record does not indicate that he was the greatest "money" goalie of all-time.
Hasek carried his teams all season and into the play-offs. He had a few long play-off runs but IMO his teams were significantly weaker until he got to Detroit. His Detroit team was no more loaded than Roy's Colorado teams and he did post shutouts in game 6 and 7 against Colorado in the series with Roy. I would take him over Roy because in my opinion he has an equal or better chance of stealing the game and a far less likely chance of having a bad game.
All good arguments you make. In the end though I put Roy quite a bit above Hasek -- Dom was quite often spectacular but I never got the feeling he was unbeatable. I think that has a lot to do with his style -- or lack thereof. He often looked like a fish out of water, flopping all over the place. Made a lot of his saves seem lucky, so while he could frustrate teams I didn't really see him intimidate them.
You're right about Roy's record against the Bruins not being great but then again he won 4 Cups and the Bruins haven't won since 1972. The Habs dominated the B's throughout the 70's and 80's and I will certainly agree that it's one of the weak points of his legacy -- letting the B's win even 1 series, let alone multiple times. It was an awesome rivalry, still is, and I've often wondered what kept them from putting it all together. Neely, Bourque, Moog, etc... just thinking back it's hard to believe they never won with that group.
Moog stands out as a very good goalie that didn't get his due.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Looking for some help...I am getting ready to buy a Brian Leetch PSA 10 rookie and wanted to hear thoughts on Topps vs O-pee-chee. I know that the Sakic rookie is more valuable in Topps but from what I hear, the Leetch was triple printed in topps making it just as common if not more so than the O-pee-chee.
The majority of HK collectors collect the topps. A number are doing the whole topps set and nobody is doing the whole OPC set. psa 10 Pop topps-35 psa 10 pop OPC 54
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I don't think it really matters but I've always been a fan of OPC over Topps. It's certainly that way for every year until 1989. In the end, the pop count will keep going up and up. THere are thousands of unopened boxes of both. The Leetch in PSA 10 will eventually be had for the cost of a grading fee plus $10-20. Same for the Sakic.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
So I have been fondly remembering 1990-91 OPC Premier. How at one time it was THE set to own. Now, pennies a pack...but, the star power as far as rookies is still there...so, I was thinking, who from that set will someday be in the Hall?
The rookies...
6 Rob Blake RC 7 Peter Bondra RC 30 Sergei Fedorov RC 50 Jaromir Jagr RC 51 Curtis Joseph RC 74 Mike Modano RC 75 Alexander Mogilny RC 81 Petr Nedved RC 86 Owen Nolan RC 91 Keith Primeau RC 100 Jeremy Roenick RC 111 Kevin Stevens RC 114 Mats Sundin RC
I think in, in no order, that these players have a shot.
I think Roenick and CuJo have a decent shot too. Tough to ignore 500 goals and a boatload of wins. Fedorov probably has a shot too. I don't think of him as a HOF'er, but he does have some support out there.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm looking into picking up rookie cards for some of the current goalies, but I'm not 100% sure on the 'key' rookie for each. I've done some research and some checking around and came up with these:
Looking into a few others (like Lundqvist), but I'll start with these. Do you guys agree with these choices? Any discrepancies?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I'm looking into picking up rookie cards for some of the current goalies, but I'm not 100% sure on the 'key' rookie for each. I've done some research and some checking around and came up with these:
I don't see Fedorov as a HOF lock. I see him as comparable to a lot of very good players who come up short of the HOF, like Bernie Nicholls. Do you guys think Fedorov's Russian stats will put him over the hump? What am I missing here?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Comments
<< <i>Jesus -- Clark Gillies and Bernie Federko are in!! >>
An absolute head scratcher on both if you ask me. Two players with a COMBINED 3 All-Star games. And they went in in the same class (2002). Wonder what the panel was smoking that year!
Where did you get that guy from. Never heard of him.
The most info I got of him from a search was a song from the 70's called 'without you.'
I think Housley gets a better than 50-50 chance
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<< <i>Where did you get that guy from. Never heard of him. >>
I know Wikipedia's a joke, but this info is pretty accurate:
Mr. Nilsson
I forgot to comment on Housley but I do agree with Andy -- he's on my list of guys who belong in the Hall. But although Howe didn't win a Norris, he played in an era with some serious all timers. Other than the Carlyle and Wilson wins, every single year was won by a first ballot guy.
Both Housley and Howe suffered from that. There are a lot of forwards in the Hall who didn't win the Hart during the 80's and 90's with Lemieux and Gretzky around.
I almost feel like starting a "HOF snub" PSA RC set.
Rogie Vachon got the short end as well -- behind guys like Dryden, Parent, Cheevers, Esposito. He would already be a HOFer if not traded to the Kings.
I would think that Housely will get in eventually. Same with Howe. If you include Howe's WHA numbers he would be a virtual lock. Howe did finish second in Norris Trophy voting 3 times.
The Carlyle Norris Trophy was a joke. He was in the right place at the right time. Ray Bourque went his first 7 years in the league without a Norris. The Carlyle year was the one year, Bourque was hurt and played part of the season at forward.
Gillies HOF selection is interesting. Other than he was a member of a dynasty team it is hard to justify his selection. I really have no clue on that one. Maybe, the perception that he was one of the original "power" forwards who could enforce as well as score was a factor.
Kent Nilsson was an incredible offensive player and great with the puck. He is similar to Bernie Federko except for a couple of things. Their point per game averages are close but Federko has close to 500 more career points. Federko was a much better defensive player and face off man. Not that Federko was good defensively but Nilsson was as one dimensional as one dimensional gets and a lousy player in his own end. Federko had over 60 assists in a season 8 times and the best wingers he ever had were Wayne Babych and a couple of seasons with Joe Mullen. I can see Federko's selection in the Hall.
There are some questionable vintage guys in there as well but the two recent ones that stick out for me are the above guys.
Housley had 1232pts in 1495 games -- as a defenceman. Let him in already! Ditto for Gilmour and Oates.
Unless you take back the borderline guys of course.
Second, I have just recently started buying NHL Hockey hall of fame rookie cards in PSA 9 or better condition (for the 80s rookies) and then PSA 8 or 8.5 for the 70s. I have decided to focus on the 1st ballot players with a few added exceptions and figure I will start with the 80s late 70s to start. I have scoured ebay and find it few and far between that a card comes up. Do you guys know of any other place to buy?
Thanks and let's keep the hockey love alive!
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
Having bled orange and black since 1971, IMHO, with apologies to Bobby Clarke, Bernie Parent and others, Howe has been the best player to wear the Flyers' uniform. In his peak years from 82 to 88, he practically never made a mistake and his +/- bears this out. I am still a bit baffled by him not winning at least one Norris during that stretch, particularly 82-83,85-86, 86-87. In 1985-86, he was +85 when the team in total was +92. If his back had not given out, he would already be in.
<< <i>Matt, a lot of the cards you're looking for a TOUGH. Even if you were looking for lesser HOF'ers ('74 Salming, '74 Shutt, '74 Gainey and '75 Gillies), you'd still have to pony up some big $. I've used VCP and the set registry to contact collectors about cards I'm interested in buying, and it's worked a few times. You may want to try that. Good luck in your search! >>
Thanks for the help. I actually just finished doing that.
I am more than willing to pay the big bucks needed for the cards as long as the present the way I want them too. There was a PSA 9 Coffey rookie on ebay that ended last week and I set my snipe $25.00 higher than the highest it had ever sold for (according to VCP) and I was outbid. I guess the other guy wanted it just a little bit more.
Oh well, the search is fun as it make the payoff even better!
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
georgebailey2 - I can see your point about the Norris, but the unfortunate part for Howe is that he chose to have his best seasons when somebody else put up probably an even more dominating season. Had he had his best season in 1983-84 he would have probably won the Norris.
Those were some tough votes.
1982-83 - Howe 20 goals 47 assists 67 points +47 15 even strength goals
- Bourque 22 goals 51 assists 73 points +49 15 even strength goals - Bourque did miss 17 games.
- Coffey 29 goals 67 assists 96 points +52 20 even strenght goals
- Langway 3 goals 29 assists 32 points +0
If you look purely on the stats it is really close. Anyone of the four could have won. That is completely giving the benefit of the doubt to Langway as an incredible defensive player. Interestingly, Howe finished with more votes than Langway for 1st team all-star. Fans of Howe, Bourque and Coffey could have been equally upset their favourite player did not win. At the time, I remember being upset Bourque did not win, but thinking how can you truly evaluate Langways D.
1985-86 I think Howe picked the worst year possible to have a phenomenal season.
-Coffey 48 goals 90 assists 138 points +61 30 even strength goals 9 short handed goals
- Howe 24 goals 58 assists 82 points +85 13 even strength goals 7 short handed goals
As much as I think Howe is better in is own end than Coffey it is virtually impossible to ignore Coffey's totals. There would have been a major uproar if Howe had won the Norris.
1986-87 Bourque 23 goals 72 assists 95 points +44 16 even strength goals
Howe 15 goals 43 assists 58 points +57 9 even strength goals
Given the relative strengths of their teams Bourques +/- is more impressive and he is far superior to Howe in the offensive stats. Bourques team scored only 25 more goals than they allowed and no other player was more than a +25. I am not completely sold on the idea of using +/- as an evaluation tool, but in most of these cases (other than Langway) it looks okay.
Also, I know Howe is often overlooked in these discussions but do you really think he was a better player than Bobby Clarke? Clarke won MVP's in a league that featured Bobby Orr and there would be a great argument that Clarke was the most fierce competitor of all-time. I am not a Flyers fan but to me Bobby Clarke was an unbelievable hockey player in all respects.
I realize he picked a bad time to have great seasons. I think the one where he had the best chance was the year Langway won. Although Coffey's defensive liabilities (relative to the other top defensemen) were well known at the time and Howe dominated the ice so much in 85-86 that it would not have been a complete shock had Howe won.
With regard to Howe and Clarke, perhaps it was by seeing Howe as a college student/young adult gave me a different perspective compared to a 10-14 year old. Clarke won the MVP because he was the heart of the Flyers in a way that no one else has probably been to any other team....ever. He was a truly skilled player but his leadership, particularly with THAT team, made him league MVP. Clarke did not dominate games. Howe dominated games and was the primary reason for that club's success during that period. He was their Ray Bourque. He never seemed to make a mistake.
So let me rephrase: Howe was most talented Flyer to fully execute that talent on the ice.
Clarke was the most important player in Flyers history and taking the goalies out of the equation, the third most talented player in team history.
Lindros was the most talented but did not get to fully exploit his talent.
Howe deserves to get in. It's the WHA holding him back. Can't think of any other reason. Omissions of guys like Howe, J.C. Tremblay and Vachon is one of the reasons the voting system gets under my skin. Instead of trying to let in every single recently eligible player, they need to address the deserving guys from the past.
Now here's a question: Should Tom Barrasso get in? (I know, I know, he's another of the bloody modern guys.)
A healthier Orr would be like what if Ted Williams didn't give up 5 of his peak years to the service.
I don't discount that or anyone of the true heroes that went into service. In my eyes that just raises Ted and others to a whole new level.
Howe better than him ??? Not that Howe wasn't good. He was so. I would say at some point he will get into te HOF.
Still looking for a nice 8x10 of Gordie with his sons signed. I have seen them out there.
Barasso has a 25% chance at best. A few good years doen't make a HOFer.
Vince why Vachon? I know his cards get decent $ and that usually means HOF status.
I would place him in the Mike Vernon category just looking at the stats. I know R V has one vezina.
When guys like Brodeur are coming up in the near future with monster numbers...how do you then put in the borderline guys?
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Exactly
If Rogie & Barasso gets in they get a chair along Sawchuk, Hall, Parent, Espo, roy..................
I can't mention them even along Marty and Hasek.
And moving closer are Belfour, cujo, Osgood, maybe Richter.
I will say I did buy a J C Tremblay last year based solely on Vince's rec.
Vernon does have the most wins of any goalie not in yet.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
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Vachon was a great goalie, make no mistake about that. He's head and shoulders above guys like Vernon and Barrasso. He did win a couple of Cups with the Habs but his LA years killed the stats. Hasek and Brodeur are surefire 1st ballot guys so I don't compare Vachon there.
One thing -- Hasek was a freak but couldn't get his teams a Cup until Detroit took him on. Bourque was the same in Boston. Vachon won with the Habs and then got traded to Siberia when Dryden came along.
I see Vachon as one of the clearcut HOF snubs, with JC Tremblay and Mark Howe as well. Might have to dig up the spreadsheet with the whole list of questionables.
Oh and no doubt Orr was better than Howe. Not sure where that came from.
I was able to see Gretzky's whole carear and only part of Bobby's and refering to all the past films.
We had a channel here at one time that showed past games from the 50's and 60's
Watching Gordie skate for a whole period and not just a highlight was awesome.
toooo bad they stopped. Not enough Canucks around here..even though we do have the Devils AHL team here.
I really don't know enough about HK to pick out HOF snubs from the 60's and before.
Vachon does have similar numbers to Grant Fuhr
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Clarke was the most important player in Flyers history and taking the goalies out of the equation, the third most talented player in team history.
Lindros was the most talented but did not get to fully exploit his talent." ~~~~
Okay, got it now. Good point.
In Ken Dryden's book "The Game", which in my mind is the best hockey book ever written he stated that he has only seen two players dominate a game. "One was Orr, the other Bobby Clarke. Clarke, a fierce, driven man, did it by the unrelenting mood he gave to a game, a mood so strong it penetrated his team and stayed on the ice even when he did not. Orr did it in another way."
Since you mentioned Lindros - do you think he belongs in the HOF?
<< <i>
Since you mentioned Lindros - do you think he belongs in the HOF? >>
Probably, yes.
Too bad about his head and I'm not just talking concussions.
Things started to go wrong both phyically and mentally when he held out, I think prior to the 97-98 season, and wanted to be the highest paid player in the league. In the public forum, Clarke simply challenged that in order to be paid the highest, you need to play like you deserve to be paid the highest. Clarke was right but it started the rift that only got worse with the onset of injuries during the next few seasons culminating with the Steven's hit. (Different discussion but in light of the Chara hit last week, I wish the NHL had done a better job in the past for penalizing players that had intent to injure. While I think that Chara should have received some suspension - due to the result not the hit as anywhere else on the ice, I doubt even an interference call would have been made. On the other hand, open ice hits where a player tees up a guy whose head is down is clearly an attempt to injure. Steven's hit on Lindros, while a "legal" hit, wasn't made to knock the puck off of Lindros' stick but to knock the head off of Lindros' body. A deliberate match penalty. Ok, got that out of my system...I'm done ranting.)
Interesting take from Dryden on Clarke. I'll grab my copy of "The Game" and re-read that section. When I think of dominate, I think of controlling the flow of the play when the player is on the ice - like Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux. That perspective is interesting, although I think Esposito showed that type of dominance with Clarke for a week in September 1972 in Moscow.
With regard to Orr vs. Gretzky, all I can say is:
Gretzky is..........well.....Gretzky!
It is all documented in the Gretzky Book........I mean NHL Record Book.
<< <i>Since you mentioned Lindros - do you think he belongs in the HOF? >>
I have always wondered about this. I think eventually he will get in.
I just looked up his career stats and he only once...yup, once....played over 80 games in a season (over a 13 season career) and he played over 70 only 3 other times. Talk about a fragile player.
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
<< <i>With regard to Orr vs. Gretzky, all I can say is:
Gretzky is..........well.....Gretzky!
It is all documented in the Gretzky Book........I mean NHL Record Book. >>
100% agreed. I think it's silly to even CONSIDER anyone besides Gretzky as the greatest hockey player of all time. He did it all . Period.
You mean every hit Scott Stevens made was not clean. According to Scott Gomez of Montreal, "Gomez, 31, played five seasons in New Jersey with defenceman Scott Stevens, the most fearsome, most punishing bodychecker of his day.
"One thing about (Stevens), when I played with him - every hit was clean," he said."
Oh, and in my opinion the Stevens hit on Lindros was dirty but the hit on Kariya was far worse. I do agree with you, though, the purpose was to separate head from body.
The debate about who the best was has no real winner. I hate comparing eras. Howe was the best in the 50's, Orr had the mid 60's to early 70's, Gretzky owned the 80's and a fourth guy we can't forget Lemieux was the 90's stud. And that's discounting a goalie from the discussion.
I place Mario #3. With all due respect I loved Gordie and don't know all the older guys enough to rank them.
Comparing a defenseman with a center.............and then comparing offensive numbers.
Gretzky relatively shielded from the brutals of HK....Orr a target.
I know Gretzky made everyone better but he played with Coffee,Kuri,Anderson, and one of the greatest also Messier. Many think Lowe is a HOFer also.
4 maybe 5 HOFERS to play with. Orr had basically only Espo. Lets see Espo. .......55,53,and 61 points and then gets traded to Boston with Orr.
Points 84,126,99,152,133145,127,83 (as Orr is really hurting) and then downward. Orr created a HOFER.
"he did it all." was he a good penalty killer? Naw. Could he beat Orr in a fantasy one on one? ..Naw Did he ever win a Selke award? Naw
I spent a lot of time in Detroit (just across the street from Lindros and a huge HK town) when Lindros was coming up. Everyone was saying he will be even better than Gretzky.
Then when he snubs the Nordiques it was a big let down and the public started to say some bad things.
He spent his entire HK carear doing it his way. He was great for a few short years then just good.
The talent was definately there. Had he calmed it down this discussion wouldn't even take place.
Did anyone see the award banquet where he accepte dhis only Hart trophy? He was bawling his brains out..so he does have a gentler side to him.
As it is I think he was borderline. I say Lindros is 50-50 at best. Bure for a shortened carear was far more dominating.
Thats just my opinion. Silly ole me !!!!
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Also, if you believe Orr turned Espo into a HOF'er (which I respectfully disagree with), then why not give credit to Gretzky for helping do the same for Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, etc? Glenn Anderson doesn't sniff the HOF with Gretzky.
I'm only kinda messin w ya.
I did mention Gretzky made everyone else better. Many people say Gretzky was a better passer than goal scorer.
I can remember watching a game w my mom who new nothing about HK. Gretzky made a pass to Messier that dropped my jaw.
4 in a straight line. Gretzky passed the puck only about 1 foot by and off 2 defenders skates and just perfect to a outstreched messier stick (about 1/2 a rink) completely straight forward
who didn't have to slow down on the breakaway. Goal. How he saw it coming from directly behind him is beyond me !!!
I can remeber saying only Gretzky could have made that pass...and it took a great messier to
handle it and score. One of the greatest plays I ever saw.
My comparison is merely peak vs peak. Remember Orr had jelly knees for 1/2 his still short carear. A 1975 Orr is no comparison.
All the HOFers that played w Orr in the Canada cups remember Orr sitting on the bench and in such pain he barely could put his skates on...then going out there and being the best player on the ice.
And once Phil espo was traded to the Rangers...hes back to a 75 point man.
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<< <i>Andy
I'm only kinda messin w ya. >>
I certainly know that Jay. Normally I make a concerted effort not to come off too opinionated. I just feel very strongly that Gretzky is right there with Babe Ruth as the the most dominant team sport athletes ever. Wilt Chamberlain is a close third. Don Hutson and Jim Brown can battle it out for fourth.
Jay -- You say without Orr Espo was a 65 pt guy. OK it was actually 61 in 69 games (66-67) but good enough for 7th in league scoring and 4 pts from 4th. The next year he had 84 pts and finished 2nd, 3 pts out of 1st. In 68 he finished 1st with 126pts. Orr wasn't in the top 10 for any of those years. In 69 Orr won the scoring title by 21 pts over Espo, then in 70 Espo beat Orr by 13, in 71 Espo beat Orr by 16, in 72 espo beat Clarke by 26 and Orr by 29, in 73 espo beat Orr by 23. In 1974 it was back to Orr beating Espo by 8.
Using the above stats one could also say that without Espo, Orr wasn't an offensive superstar.
The numbers don't always tell the tale -- Orr won the scoring title twice, AS A DEFENSEMAN, so he's obviously superhuman and one of the top 5 players of all time. Espo was a legitimate 1st ballot HOFer and certainly made Orr better but not top 5 all time.
Andy -- Gretzky was certainly dominant but Mario Lemieux interrupted the Great One's scoring title run while Wayne was in his prime. I put Lemieux #1 on the list of hockey talents. I get grief for that position but he performed superhuman feats with a supporting cast on retreads and wannabe's. I would've loved to see the carnage inflicted on the scoring records if Jagr had arrived in 1985 instead of 1991. Gretzky certainly had the better career but Lemieux is the guy I'd pick for 1 game or 1 injury free season. He also saved hockey in Pittsburgh when he could've left town.
As for the most dominant team sport athlete ever -- look up cricket's Don Bradman. He was the original superfreak.
Just some opinions. I also think leaving Sawchuk, Plante, Hainsworth, Dryden and Roy out of the best player debates is wrong.
Clearly at least 1/2 of what I said was busting on Andy. I truely believe Orr was the best. On any given day I agree I want supermario out there if it can't be a peak Bobby.
I grew up a big Boston fan and loved Espo so don't get me wrong...he was tremendous.
On Jagr..I can remeber watching him as a fresh 17 year old and remember saying he was gonna be a superstar. He was something to watch.
For mario to come back like he did elevated him above hof...a true legend.
Vince...cricket ??? Is that played on horseback? Do the make cricket cards? I know they make Kung Fu cards so grasshopper does have a RC.
On any given day a hot goalie can dominate a game. The recent olympics showed that. I never saw sawchuk or hainesworth play.
I know they are recognized as 2 of the all time greats.
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A hot goalie does not dominate a game. He can dominate a result but not the game itself.
Nice to have the hockey thread on the front page. Often overlooked in discussing Gretzky is the true greatness of his teammates. Obviously, it helps playing with Wayne but at least 3 of his teammates were first ballot HOF locks and top 50 NHL players without Wayne.
Here are some numbers from players in the last season with Wayne and their first season without.
Paul Coffey - Last season with Gretzky 59 games 17 goals 50 assists 67 points
First season w/o Gretzky 46 games 17 goals 50 assists 67 points
Coffey is a HOFer without Gretzky and the second best offensive defensemen to ever live.
Jari Kurri - Last season with Gretzky 80 games 43 goals 53 assists 96 points
First season w/o Gretzky 76 games 44 goals 58 assists 102 points
Kurri is a HOFer without Gretzky.
Esa Tikkanen - Last season with Gretzky 80 games 23 goals 51 assists 74 points
- First season w/o Gretzky 67 games 31 goals 47 assists 78 points
Tikkanen while not quite a HOFer is a first class pest and a heckuva hockey player.
Craig Simpson - Last season with Gretzky 59 games 43 goals 21 assists 64 points
First season w/o Gretzky 66 games 35 goals 41 assists 76 points
Glenn Anderson - Last season with Gretzky 80 games 38 goals 50 assists 88 points
- First season w/o Gretzky 79 games 16 goals 48 assists 64 points
Anderson is probably not a HOFer without Wayne because his production on the PP was severely curtailed. However, his linemate was Messier not Wayne. An argument could be made that it was Messier who made Anderson a HOFer and not Gretzky.
Gretzky had the second best player in the league playing on his team (Messier), the best offensive defensemen (Coffey) and the best two way forward (Kurri).
After Gretzky left Edmonton, Messier continued his dominant play. In fact after that time, Messier won 2 Cups, Wayne won 0. Messier won 2 Hart Trophies and Wayne won 1. Messier was selected to the First All-Star team twice and Wayne once. If you take Mario Lemieux at face value, Wayne's MVP in this time was a joke. Mario had the same number of assists as Wayne but scored 31 more goals that season. Wayne won it because of the improvement of the Kings but he had better teammates than Mario. I know this sounds crazy and ridiculous but other than Bernie Nicholls who has seen his numbers seriously rise stricly from being on the same team with Wayne?
I understand Gretzky had the greatest career of anybody. He also had superb teammates who complemented his game. An argument could be made that from the time, Gretzky left Edmonton until the time he retired that Mark Messier was a better hockey player.
Vince - I would really like to hear how you rank the goalies you listed. Especially Roy.
Bottom line: that much talent = Dynasty
I agree with ARO as I did not state correctly what I meant. A goalie doesn't carry the puck or control
his team's scoring. So he personnaly cannot dominate. He merely can control the outcome as stated.
On goalies: I was talking to a husband of my wife's good friend recently. He is an amateur goalie...and he said that a few years back he sat right next to bobby hull at a charity dinner
(btw-he said he was an awesome great guy-he graciously signed for everyone) and as a goalie he asked hull who the best goalies he ever played against were.
His answer: Glen Hall the most ferocious goalie ever and T espo. Espo had the best glove ever.
What do you guys think of Mark Recchi? lot of points, Didn't win any individual award or dominate. Just did it well for a long time.
Is he a hofer?
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I'd agree that a dominating goalie game is not as common as a player dominating but then again there are 2 goalies and 40 players so it's statistically bound to be that way.
Hasek and Roy regularly dominated games -- and I mean that literally. They personally dominated the action, the result, the outcome and the highlights. When a player (goalie, defenseman, forward) forces the other team to change their style or so intimidates that opposing players do stupid things then they are dominating. I can't remember the number of times guys made an extra pass, or two, or three to try and get the perfect shot against Roy.
Then there are the unbelievable saves that make it seem like he knew where the puck was going. No normal person could make the saves he did. But he did, over and over and over. Hasek too, sometimes in almost circus-like fashion.
There are times goalies can dominate for weeks at a time. Roy in 94 during his OT winning streak on the way to the Cup or against the Panthers while sweeping the finals with the Avs. Dryden had a few cruel periods against the Bruins in the 70's. Parent with the Flyers. The all-timers were all unbeatable at times and that's dominance to me -- using any definition of the word.
If you want to say they couldn't score goals then fine, that's true -- but forwards/defensemen can't stop pucks either so it's a wash.
Jay -- you mention Espo. He was an awesome goalie and well ahead of his time. But since you mention it, his stats are very comparable to Rogie Vachon's:
Espo -- 2.92 GAA, 423W, 76SO
Vachon -- 2.99GAA, 355W, 51SO
Vachon also won 3 Cups with the Habs although Dryden played all the games in 1971. Espo had none.
Espo played in a big market fior an Original 6 team and was more flamboyant. Vachon deserves to be in there as much as Espo does. He's not a bubble guy -- just a flatout snub.
Recchi -- well if Andreychuk ever gets in then MR can start thinking about it. But before that happens, Bure, Gilmour, Oates, my dog Monty and the mailman's 3-legged cat will get in too. A no for me. Having said that, he is pretty close to a PPG player over his career so pretty impressive.
Albie, you asked how I'd rank the goalies I mentioned. Well here goes:
Roy, Sawchuk, Dryden, Hainsworth, Plante -- and you can throw in Hasek at the end too. It's hard to do it objectively because of the different eras but Roy gets the nod from me because he's the best "money" goalie of all time and just plain won. The 2 Cups with Montreal were 99% Roy -- once is incredible but twice? Ludicrous. Throw in the 2 other Cups with Colorado and his resume is freaky. If records were important to him he could've played 4-5 more seasons and won another 150-200 games. In his last season he posted a 2.18GAA playing in 63 games. I love that he went out on top.
I can also think of 4-5 other goalies who could be on that list -- Vezina, Hall, Brodeur, Parent, Bower.
But none above Roy. IMHO of course.
Dryden was mentioned as an all time great. Can't 100% agree more.......I am not far from Cornell at all....and a home state team
And 1/2 drive from Union and RPI...bot having great years. Cornell in the late 60's and early 70's was tremendous. 1970 Champs.
He played 8 years and won the Vezina trophy 5 times (4 straight). That is a higher % than Gretzky's hart's.
I was wondering......I know he's short on NHL coaching....but is Ned Harkness a coaching HOFER. I know BK puts in college coaches.
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I also point to Roy's record in Game 7's when the season was on the line:
1986 Hartford at Montreal W 2-1 a brilliant performance in OT
1987 Quebec at Montreal W 5-3 solid performance
1991 Montreal at Boston L 1-2 outgoaltended by Andy Moog and allows a the winning goal on a slapshot from outside the blueline by Cam Neely
1992 Hartford at Montreal W 3-2 a brilliant performance in 2OT
1994 Montreal at Boston L 3-5 awful performance
1998 Edmonto at Colorado L 0-4 allowed 4 goals on 17 shots
1999 Colorado at Dallas L 1-4 allowed 4 goals on 25 shots
2000 Colorado at Dallas L 2-3 average performance
2001 Los Angeles at Colorado W 5-1 great performance
2001 New Jersey at Colorado W 3-1 solid perfromance
2002 Los Angeles at Colorado W 4-0 superb performance
2002 San Jose at Colorado W 1-0 superb performance
2002 Colorado at Detroit L 0-7 6 goals against on 16 shots in half a game
2003 Minnesota at Colorado L 2-3 decent performance
So what are we left with for game 7's - A record of 7-7 - 7-2 at home when favoured and 0-5 on the road when needed to steal a series. It would seem to me that the greatest money goaltender of all-time would be better than .500 in game 7's and certainly able to steal at least one road game.
Personally, I would take Hasek and Dryden over Roy in a big game.
I find it hard to rank Vachon. He was so amazing in the Canada Cup in 1976 when the whole country got to see him play after him toiling in L.A. Unfortunately, for me, I can still remember him playing absolutely terrible for the Bruins in the early 80's. I think his save percentage was the worst of all-time. Still, you make a good comparison with Tony Esposito.
The game 7 record? Well it's certainly a good point but not really defining in my opinion. The 2-1 loss -- hard to call it being outdueled when you allow only 2 goals. How did you determine his actual play in those games? Do have notes from them or did you watch the games again? I would love to have copies of those performances! I certainly agree that Detroit schooled him and if there's one team that he would love to have played better against it's the Wings.
As for Hasek, I also think he was a freak but he didn't perform any magical runs. He could carry his team for a bit but not to the Holy Grail -- except with a loaded team in Detroit. Dryden is a good one though -- he has always suffered in comparisons because of the allstar team around him.
I still take Roy though. You can't win 'em all but in this era, with what he had to work with, 4 Cups is awesome. The Colorado ones were not as unexpected but still some great performances.
All good points. I can see the logic behind picking Roy as the best goalie of all-time and given the Cups and consistency during the season it is an easy argument that can be made..
In regard to your points - The Canadiens were certainly not a juggernaut in 1986 and Roy was great. No question. In 1993 they were a pretty strong team, and other than Pittsburgh, who they had the good fortune of not playing, were in a group of 5 or 6 teams that could be called legitamate Cup contenders. My point, was that yes he was great, but he did not win the series by himself. In last years play-off Halak "stole" two series against Washington and Pittsburgh two vastly superior teams. Roy did not do that, nor as he ever won a game seven on the road.
As for the game 7's. The games and series against Boston, I have watched and re-watched. Roy's post-season performance against Boston is not great - the Habs were 3-5 in series against Boston with him in net. In most of the series losses he was outgoaltended. For what it is worth, I never worried with Roy in net that the Bruins were in trouble. I never felt he would be the reason the Bruins lost. In the 2-1 game seven I referred to - it was a 0-0 game into the second. Dave Christian scored a goal from the top of the circle with no screen. In a 0-0 game that was big. However, with the Bruins up 1-0, Cam Neely scored a PP goal where he started his windup from center and just outside the blueline blew it by Roy. The Habs came back with a goal mouth scramble goal late and fell 2-1 in a game that was pretty even - shots were 36-33 Montreal. Both goalies played well but the difference in the game was Moog. The other game seven loss to the Bruins - he let in some more bad goals (Ted Donato beat him with a slapshot from the blueline) in a game he was outgoaltended by the immortal Jon Casey. Some of the other games I remember and some I was going by the numbers. My point with the game seven's was that his record does not indicate that he was the greatest "money" goalie of all-time.
Hasek carried his teams all season and into the play-offs. He had a few long play-off runs but IMO his teams were significantly weaker until he got to Detroit. His Detroit team was no more loaded than Roy's Colorado teams and he did post shutouts in game 6 and 7 against Colorado in the series with Roy. I would take him over Roy because in my opinion he has an equal or better chance of stealing the game and a far less likely chance of having a bad game.
All good arguments you make. In the end though I put Roy quite a bit above Hasek -- Dom was quite often spectacular but I never got the feeling he was unbeatable. I think that has a lot to do with his style -- or lack thereof. He often looked like a fish out of water, flopping all over the place. Made a lot of his saves seem lucky, so while he could frustrate teams I didn't really see him intimidate them.
You're right about Roy's record against the Bruins not being great but then again he won 4 Cups and the Bruins haven't won since 1972. The Habs dominated the B's throughout the 70's and 80's and I will certainly agree that it's one of the weak points of his legacy -- letting the B's win even 1 series, let alone multiple times.
It was an awesome rivalry, still is, and I've often wondered what kept them from putting it all together. Neely, Bourque, Moog, etc... just thinking back it's hard to believe they never won with that group.
Moog stands out as a very good goalie that didn't get his due.
Anyway, thought I would see what people think.
Thanks
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
psa 10 Pop topps-35
psa 10 pop OPC 54
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The rookies...
6 Rob Blake RC
7 Peter Bondra RC
30 Sergei Fedorov RC
50 Jaromir Jagr RC
51 Curtis Joseph RC
74 Mike Modano RC
75 Alexander Mogilny RC
81 Petr Nedved RC
86 Owen Nolan RC
91 Keith Primeau RC
100 Jeremy Roenick RC
111 Kevin Stevens RC
114 Mats Sundin RC
I think in, in no order, that these players have a shot.
Sundin
Roenick
Modano
Jagr
Blake
Fedorov
What do you guys think?
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
Kiprusoff (1994 Finest)
Luongo (1997 Zenith)
Turco (2000 SP)
Looking into a few others (like Lundqvist), but I'll start with these. Do you guys agree with these choices? Any discrepancies?
<< <i>I'm looking into picking up rookie cards for some of the current goalies, but I'm not 100% sure on the 'key' rookie for each. I've done some research and some checking around and came up with these:
Kiprusoff (1994 Finest)
Luongo (1997 Zenith)
Turco (2000 SP)
Looking into a few others (like Lundqvist), but I'll start with these. Do you guys agree with these choices? Any discrepancies? >>
Yup. those all look about right. I am a big fan of Lundqvist too and have always had a soft spot for his SP authentic autograph rookie from 2005.
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
In the 90's list Federov was by far the most exciting to watch and talented along with Yagr
This year could end up being like 84 Topps FB
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Andy
Federov was a complete player at both ends. He is a 2x winner of the Selke.
Is he a Messier...no way. But from the list of 1990 rookies he stands out.
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