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Official Hockey HOF Rookies Thread+++++++++++++++++++++++

shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭
in PSA Set Registry Forum
We can't very well have one for every sport except hockey, now can we? image Here's my picks for the class of '08:

Larionov
Oates
Housley
Gilmour

Anderson and Dino have been screwed so many times already, it's hard to imagine a year where they finally get their just due. I'd love to see one of them sneak in ahead of Gilmour. Just not sure if it's gonna happen though.

This would be the perfect year for Anderson and/or Dino because, being 3 years removed from the strike, there are no first-ballot players. Next year wil be super tough with Yzerman, Hull, Leetch, Robitaille and Andreychuk all eligible for the first time.

Aside from the 6 I already mentioned, I think Bure could sneak in too. If he doesn't make it at some point, he'll be the only player in NHL history with five 50-goal season not to get in.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
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Comments

  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    andy
    Now that all 4 sports are taken care of....why not ping pong??? What is forrest gump's best rc ?????

    I agree dino is a no brainer......at some point the voters have to recognize his acomplishments.

    He was never the best...but damm good for a long time.

    next year are 4 no brainers for sure........the voters seem to like the russians........and larionov was considered the best player in the world by many for quite a while. Bure ??? good while it lasted.......he was great...exciting....maybe he can pull off a gayle sayers and get in. If they look at just stats for a carear...no way.

    The good thing with hockey....its not hard to figure out the best RC...and HK allows both in most instances....for the registry (some older cards don't fit this category).

    Why not get everyones opinion on who is a good candidate and the best rc for that player..........

    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Why not get everyones opinion on who is a good candidate and the best rc for that player.......... >>



    Why? You just said it's easy to figure out. image
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • ArtRossLivesArtRossLives Posts: 193
    Nice to see this thread started....thanks Andy. Pardon my ignorance but what is Larinov's rookie card?
    C56, V252, V128-1 sets
    Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭
    Larionov's first issue is a 1983 Swedish sticker. He also has Russian cards issued in '84 & '87, and a Kraft issued card in 1989. For set registry purposes, I believe his '90 Upper Deck would be considered his rookie, much like it is for Fetisov.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    Andy - Thanks for starting this thread. Now there is another thread I have to read over here image Have you had any luck or seen any of the Swedish stickers from the late 60's early 70's. I am looking for cards of Tretiak, Kharlamov and Yakushev.

  • Mikesc98Mikesc98 Posts: 44
    Great thread guys! I agree that Larionov and Oates will get in to the HOF this year. Maybe some others who have been overlooked in years past will get their due this time around as well. Apart from the Upper Deck card, Larionov is in a bunch of the other 1990 sets, too, but I haven't seen many PSA graded Larionov cards offered for sale, probably because few people have been getting them graded. I just looked at who becomes eligible in 2009--that year's class is already packed!
  • TurbosHockeyTurbosHockey Posts: 531 ✭
    There is a set called Hockey '79 that was put out by pani I believe and it has the three cards of the players you are talking about. As for the HOF , dino may get in one day but his reputation may hurt him for a bit. People don't forget the stick swinging incident he was invoved in that almost got him arrested.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As for the HOF , dino may get in one day but his reputation may hurt him for a bit. >>



    It already has hurt him for several years.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • ArtRossLivesArtRossLives Posts: 193
    When the HOF rookie registry set was created by Tom Papa he had it set up that the earliest card of each rookie would be the 'official' rookie card for the Registry set. If there were multiple issues from the same year they all would be eligible. If there were no graded cards from their active career years then tribute cards like the 85 HOF set or Action Packed HOF sets would be allowed.

    Tom sold off most of the cards in his set and is no longer involved with the Registry. Since then PSA has started grading some cards that they didn't when he set it up such as 39-40 and 40-41 OPCs.

    I'd like to see the tribute cards of players that have 39-40 or 40-41 OPC dropped from the Registry set. Anyone else agree or disagree?
    C56, V252, V128-1 sets
    Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    ArtRossLives - Originally, when Tom put those players in the HOF rookie set I did not think it was a good idea. The cards were printed, in most cases long after their playing days and many were non-players. I felt that there should have been simply a HOF rookie set for players separate from executives.

    Now that PSA grades cards from the 39-40 and 40-41 OPC set it makes sense that all other cards for those players, including Elmar Lach, Max Bentley, Black Jack Steward, Ken Reardon etc. be removed from the set.
  • edmundfitzgeraldedmundfitzgerald Posts: 4,306 ✭✭


    << <i> As for the HOF , dino may get in one day but his reputation may hurt him for a bit. People don't forget the stick swinging incident he was invoved in that almost got him arrested. >>



    If Dino couldn't make Team Canada in 1987, then I don't think he can make the hall of fame. I know Canada wanted some tough
    wingers like Tocchet and Sutter, but if Dino was hall of fame worthy, he should have made that team. Smaller shifty forwards like
    Hawerchuck, Goulet, and Gartner made it over Dino.
  • RedHeart54RedHeart54 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If Dino couldn't make Team Canada in 1987, then I don't think he can make the hall of fame. >>



    Even Yzerman was left off of that team. (Canada probably could have sent a second team and still won.) Gretzky and Lemieux supplied the goals, Hawerchuk and Tocchet supplied the grit.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭
    From what I understand, Dino's not in the HOF because Scotty Bowman and his cronies do not like him. Just another example of politics rearing its ugly head where it has no place. 600+ goals should gain a player automatic entry into the HOF, kinda like 3,000 hits or 300 wins in baseball.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • edmundfitzgeraldedmundfitzgerald Posts: 4,306 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If Dino couldn't make Team Canada in 1987, then I don't think he can make the hall of fame. >>



    Gretzky and Lemieux supplied the goals, Hawerchuk and Tocchet supplied the grit. >>




    And Hawerchuk supplied the illegal hook that didn't get called that allowed Lemieux to have open ice to top shelf the series
    winning goal image Not at all disappointed that "the call" was overlooked.

    Yeah, you would think 600 goals should get someone into the hall of fame, but I don't think it should be the only reason.
    What was Dino's plus/minus ? Was he just a cherry picker, or did he assist his players too ? I personally don't think Dino
    was a great player. I think he was a gifted goal scorer, but that was about it.

    Scoring goals and preventing goals is important in hockey. Should shot blockers get into the hall of fame just because
    they led the league in blocking shots ? I don't think you can just look at one aspect of somebody's game, but to each their own.

    Speaking of Yzerman being left off Team Canada 87, it still amazes me that the most unassuming, underrated hockey player
    ever was a key part to that team. The All time point leaders are Gretzky, Messier, and Howe. The guy who is #4 in all
    time points is Ron Francis. A name that never gets mentioned in the all time greats.
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭
    I would think that if its in a players rookie year for cards then they should be allowed in the set?
    image
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • ArtRossLivesArtRossLives Posts: 193
    Nice Larinov.....

    Albie, I guess you and I are the only two down with dumping the 85 HOF tribute cards and other 'newer' cards and making the 39-40, 40-41 OPC the only official 'rookies' - I'd include:
    Sid Abel - 39-40 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst/Berk Ross
    Max Bentley - 40-41 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst
    Frank Brimsek - 39-40 OPC, drop the HOF card
    Roy Conacher - 39-40 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst
    Bill Cowley - 39-40 OPC, drop the HOF card
    Woody Dumart - 39-40 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst
    V. Fetsiov - add the 79 Panini, drop the 90 UD/Score
    Bryan Hextall - 39-40 OPC, drop the HOF card
    Elmer Lach - 40-41 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst
    Babe Pratt - 39-40 OPC, drop the 55 Parkhurst
    Kenny Reardon - 40-41 OPC, drop the 55 Parkhurst/Quaker
    Milt Schmidt - 40-41 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst
    Earl Seibert - 39-40 OPC, drop the 85 HOF card
    Clint Smith - 39-40 OPC, drop the Pro Set Induction Card
    Jack Stewart -40-41 OPC, drop the 51 Parkhurst/Berk Ross

    Did I miss any?


    C56, V252, V128-1 sets
    Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    Mark - Kharlamov and Tretiak have cards in the Swedish Panini sets from the late 60's. I do not know if PSA has graded any but they should be included instead of their current rookies.
  • BoopottsBoopotts Posts: 6,784 ✭✭
    Speaking of hockey (sorry if this is a little OT), but does anyone else agree that Gartner is the most underrated-- or at least undeappreciated-- player in the history of all four North American sports?
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Speaking of hockey (sorry if this is a little OT), but does anyone else agree that Gartner is the most underrated-- or at least undeappreciated-- player in the history of all four North American sports? >>



    I certainly agree that he's underrated, even very underrated, but not quite to that degree. He was more or less a one-trick pony.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Underrated?

    Of the recent players, names that I rarely hear come up when discussing the best of their era (granted when you read the names, you appreciate their greatness, but their not the first names that come to the forefront):

    Dale Hawechuck
    Ron "I Hate Scott Stevens" Francis
    Joe "Yes, I'm American" Mullen
    Al MacInnis
    Bryan Trottier
    Mike Bossy
    Luc Robitaille (drafter 5 rounds AFTER Tom Glavine)
    Theo "Snort" Fleury

    And when will Brodeur get props for his incredible and consistent career? He is always talked down. First, it was because he had Niedermayer and Stevens, then it was because of the trap, then it was because of the system. It doesn't matter who his blueliners are or what the rules changes are, he plays 70+ games every year and wins 40+. By this time next year, he'll hold the all-time wins record and perhaps the all-time shutout record. You can have Roy, Belfour, Hasek, Barrasso, Fuhr, Smith, Giacomin, whoever. The only goalies I might take over Broduer during the PEAK of their careers would be Sawchuck, Hall, Plante, or Dryden. And even then, I'd have to think seriously about it!

    Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming . . .
  • MADMAD Posts: 386
    If this set were to become a true rookie card set then maybe it would get more respect.

    I started collecting this as a set a couple years back but decided to just collect those cards I felt mattered ignoring the set as a goal because of these ridiculous cards.

    The Baseball, Basketball and Football HOF players rookie registry sets ignore players if these are the only types of cards the player has.

    There is an alternative set if you want to collect one card of each player in the Hall of Fame.

    BTW, if you re talking about the BEST

    I think Mike Bossy is the only one of those you mention who is definuitely among the BEST of their time with Francis a possibility.

    Dale Hawechuck -- He was a great player, just not one of the best. Nothing wrong with that.

    Ron "I Hate Scott Stevens" Francis -- He was a very good player, a great leader, and a great captain. Maybe he should be spoken about as one of the best of his time. An argument could be made.

    Joe "Yes, I'm American" Mullen -- One of the best American players ever.

    Al MacInnis -- Great shot decent defenseman. Pales in comparison to Bourque, Stevens, Chelios, Niedermayer, Lidstrom.

    Bryan Trottier -- Hard to mention the islanders without naming him, but sorry it was Denis Potvin, Billy Smtih, Mike Bossy.

    Mike Bossy -- He was one of the best. NO DOUBT ABOU IT.

    Luc Robitaille (drafter 5 rounds AFTER Tom Glavine) -- Great and consistent but failed to set himself apart when he had the opportunity.

    Theo "Snort" Fleury -- Could have been one of the best, but his lack of commitment to the game makes him a footnote and that's all he deserves. He could have been spoken about in Martin St. Louis terms but well..

    Just my opnion.

    Marc (MAD)
    Have shine box will travel
    ------------
    BOBBY ORR
    THE BEST THERE WAS!
    THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
    ------------
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭
    I think you lost your way, Marc. The football HOF rookies thread is a few threads down. LOL.

    I definitely agree about Bossy. A very strong case could be made for him as the best goal scorer of all time. I certainly couldn't argue strongly against it, except for maybe Gretzky. It's too bad injuries shortened Bossy's career. He was a machine.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • TurbosHockeyTurbosHockey Posts: 531 ✭
    Being from Winnipeg originally I have a soft spot for Hawerchuck, but with that said I do not feel there was a more pure goal scorer than Mike Bossy. I would love to have seen him play a few more uears if his back did not give out as he may have set some pretty nice records. Speaking of records will anyone ever break Selanne's rookie goal record?
  • MADMAD Posts: 386
    Andy --

    Sorry, I opened the wrong thread and decided to give my opnion.

    Marc (MAD)
    Have shine box will travel
    ------------
    BOBBY ORR
    THE BEST THERE WAS!
    THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
    ------------
  • RedHeart54RedHeart54 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Speaking of records will anyone ever break Selanne's rookie goal record? >>



    I would say not. The superstars have a hard time hitting 50 anymore, let alone 60 or 70. I doubt we'll ever see a rookie score 77 goals .
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    Good to see some hockey talk.

    Bossy was certainly a prolific goal scorer and often overlooked today when discussing the all-time greats. The Hockey News Top 50 gave him his due ranking him 20th of all-time, back in 1997. I would say the only goal scorer better that I have seen is Mario Lemieux.

    Although the era's are a little different here are their goal numbers per game:

    Regular Season
    Bossy .76
    Lemieux .75
    Gretzky .60

    Play-Offs
    Lemieux .71
    Bossy .66
    Gretzky .59

    To make it more fair let's take away Mario's last for four seasons when he was hurt, and look at Gretzky's career only with Edmonton. Bossy, after all, did not really have any "old" man years because he left close to his peak.

    Regular Season
    Gretzky .84
    Lemieux .82
    Bossy .76

    Play-Offs
    Lemieux .79
    Gretzky .68
    Bossy .66

    I would guess that if you looked at the goals per game in the league they were lowest during Mario's reign. To me Mario is the best but Bossy is right up there.


  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Andy --

    Sorry, I opened the wrong thread and decided to give my opnion.

    Marc (MAD) >>



    We'll let it slide...this time. image I forgot you used to do all the sports. I always think of you as a football guy.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I would guess that if you looked at the goals per game in the league they were lowest during Mario's reign. To me Mario is the best but Bossy is right up there. >>



    Considering that Mario Lemieux is THE reason I became a hockey fan, my favorite player, and the reason why I still root for the Pens, I won't disagree with you. I really wish he hadn't lost so many years to his first retirement.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    Andy - Glad we agree. I really did not want to get into why I think Mario is a far better goal scorer than the Great One!image
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Andy - Glad we agree. I really did not want to get into why I think Mario is a far better goal scorer than the Great One! >>



    I'll assume that argument would center around the fact that Gretzky played in a more goal-friendly era and had more talented players passing him the puck. Really though, when you're talking about Gretzky/Lemieux/Bossy talent, a winning argument could be made for any of them.

    Now greatest player of all time??? I don't see any way how that could not be Wayne Gretzky. I think some people pick against him for - well - I don' know what reasons. Bobby Orr was great, but he didn't do it long enough. Even in their primes Gretzky was far more dominant.

    Gretzky obliterated every significant season and career record, was perhaps the dominant player in any team sport ever (Ruth, Jim Brown and Chamberlain are other candidates) made his teammates considerably better, won multiple championships, and was as selfless as they come. They didn't call him the Great One for nothing.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • MADMAD Posts: 386
    I could try and convince you Orr was the best of all time.

    I just know I can't convince you.

    I guess you had to see it to believe it.

    By the way, Orr won two Stanley Cups with three hall of famers --Phil Esposito, Johnny Bucyk, Gerry Cheevers -- nothing else.

    Gretzky had Grant Fuhr, Paul Coffey, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri and should be hall of famer Glenn Anderson and a supporting cast that included Kevin Lowe and I could go on and on.


    Here's a little something to think about --


    As a defenseman Orr had to do everything - block shots, check, fight, etc.

    In his 12 years, Orr had 953 penalty minutes.
    In his 20 years, Gretzky had 577 penalty minutes.

    Orr had 915 points and a career plus/minus of +597
    Gretzky had 2,857 points and a career plus/minus of +518


    Marc (MAD)
    Have shine box will travel
    ------------
    BOBBY ORR
    THE BEST THERE WAS!
    THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
    ------------
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    I can't really speak for or against any of the players I never saw play....and hockey is a sport where stats don't tell the whole story.
    However, if the discussion is the best player ever.....then we are only talking about gretzky and orr (yes I loved mario and many others).
    Andy, I think you are about 30 to 33 years old if I remember lets say 30. That matches up with your 77.....so 1977...that makes you 1977 ad but in hockey terms you are 11 ao...after orr!! Because that is the year hockey changed forever.

    Nobody ever saw the ice better than wayne or more talented considering his feeble physical stature in a very rough game. period.

    But nobody but nobody dominated like orr did. Without that great of a supporting caste. Yes wayno made everyone rise above themselves and there are 4-5 hofers to prove it. Look at phil espo......a 55,53 and 62 point man at best/year (even with bobby hull) on the blackhawks. Then goes to see mr orr...bingo !!! 100+ point seasons, scoring trophies (leading scoring centerman before gretzky). After 1975 when orr was done...yes consider this his last nhl year...he goes back down to almost nothing. No orr...no nothing. Lets not take anything away from him either. Espo is a great hofer.

    Despite orr's 2 scoring titles....a first for defenseman.......he was expected to play a solid defence AND kill penalties. He could skate around for 2 minutes with the puck and kill a penalty by himself.....a ribute to his 8 straight Norris trophies. If wayno had to guard the crease, how many points could we shave off him?????? in 1970 I think orr had a +/_ of +124 oh my god!!!!!!! That my friends is controlling the game.
    So my vote goes with marc on this one. Not by much......Gretzky easily wins greatest scorer ever. I was able to see both play.....Too bad bobby had just 10 good years......much like the above thread.......too bad bossy couldn't have done it longer.
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Too bad bobby had just 10 good years......much like the above thread.......too bad bossy couldn't have done it longer. >>



    You just made one of one points here. You can not discount longevity in these discissions. Orr only played 12 years. And he played in just 36 games over his last 3 years, so he really played 9 full seasons. Of those, 6 were dominant. He had an amazing run (especially for a defenseman) of 6 straight 100-point seasons in there. But then injuries took their toll. Sandy Koufax had probably the most dominating 4-year run a pitcher's ever had, but does that qualify him as the best ever?

    Gretz topped the 100-point mark 14 times. That's two more years than Orr even played. He had four 200-point seasons. Say what you want about scoring being higher during that era, but no one else has ever had 200 points in the history of the NHL (Mario came closest with 199). And Gretzky was just blowing guys away in the scoring race on an annual basis.

    The benchmarks for me for a good player are short-term dominance, long-term dominance, championships, and the ability to make your teammates better. Gretzky had all of these, which is extremely rare in any athlete. Orr obviously falls short in long-term dominance.

    To conclude, you're correct Marc that I could never be convinced that Orr was better than Gretzky. Just like I couldn't convince you of the opposite. It's always a fun debate though.

    And I'm 34, Jay. I wouldn't mind being 30 again if you want to throw me in your time machine and shave a few years off image It's an interesting point though. So often these debates boil down to who you saw growing up. Will a basketball player ever be better than Michael Jordan? Will I ever see a better active running back than Barry Sanders? The answer for me is no. But ask the guys who are 25 and younger and we might get a different answer. As I said, it's always a fun debate.

    99

    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • edmundfitzgeraldedmundfitzgerald Posts: 4,306 ✭✭
    Teemu Selanne set his rookie scoring record in the clutch and grab era.

    Now that there is more open ice, I believe we will see a rookie break his record.
    John Tavarez broke Wayne Gretzky's minor league scoring record last year. He will be drafted
    in a couple of years. He's kind of like a Phil Esposito and will have a shot at it if he gets drafted
    on a decent team and sees power play time.


    Bossy was an incredible goal scorer. He was the best at hitting the five hole.

    Lemieux was just obscene. Nobody had the imagination plus the skill to compliment his imagination.

    Gretzky just saw things before they happened. When the goalie was reacting, Gretzky was already two steps ahead of him.

    Yes, nobody dominated their era the way Bobby Orr did. Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux are hands down the three greatest
    to ever play the game. If you want to pick one, go ahead. I'll just say they are the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit of hockey.
  • MADMAD Posts: 386
    Andy --

    They called Jackie Gleason the Great One also...

    but he wasn't the best, either LOL

    Just kidding.

    You do help me with one of my points --

    Look at how many points Wayne Gretzky amassed in his career and what was his career plus/minus?

    20+ years averaging 142 points with an average plus/minus of +25 per season.

    BTW, Orr called Lemieux the most talented player he had ever seen.

    Marc (MAD)

    Have shine box will travel
    ------------
    BOBBY ORR
    THE BEST THERE WAS!
    THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
    ------------
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm a huge Honeymooners fan, so as far as I'm concerned Jackie Gleason can share "The Great One" nickname with Gretzky any day!

    It's funny, Lemieux is without question my favorite hockey player, but I haven't let him creep into this discussion too far. Maybe I should. I think it's because I don't want to seem like a homer, and perhaps I'm still a little bitter about the fact that he robbed us of some likely great years with his early retirement. I would unquestionably put him # 2 ahead of Orr, but maybe that's just me image

    I wonder how many of Gretzky's supporting cast would have made the HOF without him? Would Kurri have made it? Would Messier have been a world-class player? Would Glenn Anderson even be in any HOF discussion? Who knows? Coffey excelled in Pittsburgh (how lucky was he? Gretzky AND Lemieux), so I think he would have made it regardless. Yes, gretzky played with great players. But he also helped to make them the players they were.

    It's just tough, or impossible, for me to look at a player like Orr who had only 6 dominant seasons and conceive that he could be better than Gretzky. Maybe he had the talent to be. He's unquestionably the best defenseman ever. But he didn't do it long enough for us to know for sure.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Hmmm, all the talk about the greatest and no one mentions Mr. Hockey. One should stop and realize that Howe, while playing for something like 72 years in the NHL, did it all in his hey day. And consider that during the bulk of Gordie's career, only one assist was credited to each goal. I wonder how many secondary assists Howe had in his career?

    His first fight in his rookie year was 1 more than Gretzky had in his entire career.

    With that being said, I would take Mario Lemiuex as the best all around player in NHL history. #2 would be Bobby Orr, then Howe, and Gretzky. And the only reason I would take Orr over Howe is because what he did was revolutionary for his position. He wasn't a 4th forward playing defense like Paul Coffey, he was a defenseman who played defense AND omved the puck like a centerman.

    Gretzky benefitted from lax rules that allowed plenty of 4 on 4 before the coincidental minor penalties changed. Heck, the Oilers used to love to take a penalty if they could drag an opponent to the box, too. 4 on 4 and plenty of open ice for Gretzky, Jurri, Messier, Anderson and Coffey and Lowe.

    Oh, and while we're at it, can we drop some props on Joe Sakic? Another very talented and oft overlooked star who just plays the game the way it was meant to be played.
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    Joe Sakic....woooh another 1st ballot hofer for sure. My interpretation of the best is who was simply spectacular beyond all other players of his time.......No doubt the great one was the greatest.....His scoring records are probably as safe as Joe D's 56 game streak. In a fantasy hockey game my 1st pick is orr over Gretzky. The Orr comment about super mario......has true merit...he fits the mold as a possible greatest. He did it without a big supporting caste. (is jagr's #'s a little bloated due to his tandem with mario....yesssireee)

    Did one of my learned board members mention gretzky never got in a fight.......His enforcers would not allow that !!!! And all those special do not touch wayne rules yee gods man !!!! Didn't the great one win 'the most gentlemanly player' multiple times. forgot waht the trophy is called...??? Andy some help here LOL Well the big guns came after the rookie phenom Orr day one...and he fought it out and earned the respect he deserved. Doesn't make him better than wayno...just gotta love him a tad more...

    I think the argument over this question is certainly on the right course with the 4 major players mentioned.
    I never saw gordie for most of his carear......

    who knows maybe in 20 years we will be talking about crosby or elex.......
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Slightly off topic, but I just received a TTM autograph that ties in with one of the players I mentioned.

    Murray Armstrong played for the Detroit Red Wings and was the player sent down to bring up some young stud named Gordon Howe. Armstrong continued to play in the minors, but eventually switched to coaching and eventually won 5 NCAA Titles with the University of Denver.

    Armstrong is now 92 years old, and after a career that included NHL stops with the Toronto Maple Leafs, New York Americans (later the Brooklyn Americans), and finally the Red Wings he retired to play golf, golf, and more golf. Sadly, he's since moved south and in his letter, mentioned that he's growing old and tired and feels too weak to play golf anymore.

    Even though Armstrong never returned to the NHL, he said he never was upset at being replaced by Howe. Heck, Howe never won an NCAA Championship!

    I hope I live long enough to reach 92. I'll worry about being tired and weak when I get there!
  • MADMAD Posts: 386
    Could Sandy Koufax still pitch at the end.

    The one thing about Orr that sets him apart from others whose careers were shortened by injury. When Orr did play he was still one of the best, if not the best on the ice.

    After 4 or 5 operations on each knee. In the final 36 games of his career he had 11 goals and 34 assists still above 1 point per game.


    Don't forget he knew he was pretty much done and played all out in the 76 Canada Cup Series 7 games with 2 goals and assists and MVP of the series.

    BTW, in Orr's ninth season (his last real season) he led the league in Points.

    I wonder how many minutes Orr played in a game. He was on the ice for the entire power play and the entire penalty kill.

    I really enjoy this back-and-forth especially with knowledeable and open minded real hockey fans.

    Marc (MAD)

    Have shine box will travel
    ------------
    BOBBY ORR
    THE BEST THERE WAS!
    THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
    ------------
  • MADMAD Posts: 386
    Jay --

    That's the Lady "Bada" Byng. Yeah Bucyk won it too along with Ratelle et al.

    Marc (MAD)
    Have shine box will travel
    ------------
    BOBBY ORR
    THE BEST THERE WAS!
    THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
    ------------
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Marc:

    Koufax was stellar in '66. He certainly went out at the top of his game!

    He was 27-9 with a sub 2.00 ERA and won the Cy Young and was second in the MVP voting. I challenge anyone to say he played past his prime. Hell, he left while he was still in it.

    In fact, in has last two seasons, he won the Cy Young both years, won 53 games, had 699 K's, 54 complete games, 13 shutouts, and an ERA around 1.85.
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    yes I also appreciate this squabble with a bunch of knowledgable guys....we may not agree...and if we all did that makes a very boring conversation.......
    I am home sick with the flu so forgive me...I normally dont post like a madman. Please don't tell the Fb guys know I like Hk better..........
    marc..in reference to the 76 cup....I was watching a HHOF program, and all the guys were telling tales about playing days....all said Orr was the greatest. Lanny McDonald was funny.....he said once he chased Orr around the rink for 2 minutes straight trying to get the puck. Orr was skating the whole time as all 5 of them tried to get the puck (he was killing a penalty). Out of breath ...he gets back to the bench and sees his whole team just laughing uncontrolably at him.....Orr hd just been playing with him. He said, "if bobby orr didn't want you to get the puck...then you weren't getting it." He describes seeing Orr (during the 76 cup) in the dressing room...no practice time..too painfull...and can barely stand..lacing up his skates...but when the puck dropped, "he was the best player on the ice." To bad there is no trophy for pure guts.
    Does anybody know the best rc and the one that might be used for the psa sets for sidney and elex??? this new stuff has me baffled....no autos , sp #d under 1000.
    besides cards I like signed lithos and 8x10's......looking at a nice signed ' bobby orr flying' right now. One of my best pieces.
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Does anybody know the best rc and the one that might be used for the psa sets for sidney and elex??? >>



    From what I can tell it would either be Upper Deck or Black Diamond. Both are through the roof for Crosby price-wise. Ovechkins are more affordable. You might want to grab a Malkin while you're at it as well!
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>looking at a nice signed ' bobby orr flying' right now. One of my best pieces. >>



    Ahhhh, what a showboat! He'd already scored the Cup Winner and decided to fly for the cameraman. What a ham! image

    image
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    oh yeah....but mine is a 32 by 64 and orr personnaly spit on it....so it is 2x psa dna'ddd
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • edmundfitzgeraldedmundfitzgerald Posts: 4,306 ✭✭
    1. I'll also give props to Joe Sakic. What a wonderful player he is. He represents the sport very well.

    2. Why isn't Brett Hull recognized as a great goal scorer ? I know he had Adam Oates, a passer as good as Lemieux, but you never
    hear his name mentioned when it comes to great goal scorers. He also played a lot in the clutch and grab era.

    3. If anyone saw the 87' Coup de Canada, they understand why Gretzky is the greatest ever.

    4. Bobby Orr still dominated his era more then any other player. It isn't even close IMO.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>4. Bobby Orr still dominated his era more then any other player. It isn't even close IMO. >>



    Not so sure about that my friend...

    Top 10 Points Totals, Single Season:

    215 Wayne Gretzky

    212 Wayne Gretzky

    208 Wayne Gretzky

    205 Wayne Gretzky

    199 Mario Lemieux

    196 Wayne Gretzky

    183 Wayne Gretzky

    168 Wayne Gretzky

    168 Mario Lemieux

    164 Wayne Gretzky
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Oh, and by the way . . . since I was being a little sarcastic earlier, I figured I'd fess up. Gretzky did not go through his career without a fight. In nearly 1500 regular season games, The Great One couldn't find McSorley or Semenko 3 times. His "victims" were:

    Doug Lecuyer (Chicago Blackhawks), March 14, 1980
    Neal Broten (Minnesota), December 22, 1982
    Bob Murray (Chicago), March 7, 1984

    Yes, a bunch of brawling goons, the entire lot of them. In fact, none of them ever eclipsed triple digits in PIM during any season of their NHL careers. It's not like Wayne was running around looking for Tiger Williams, Chris Nilan, or Bob Probert. But it's better to be a scorer . . .
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    nie piece also.....are you sure about those three...????
    I heard all 3 fights were at once...he took on the hansen brothers all by himself !!!!!!!!!!
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
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