<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
>>
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
>>
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks Harv >>
The mint gets the same price for a 65 as they do for a 70. With modern manufacturing methods and a little care, the mint should produce nothing but 69s and 70s and much of the time there is no discernible difference between them. The Mint with a little quality control should not even be letting 68s out the door, but I suppose they figger why not, most won't comlain and if anyone does we'll fix it. There is no reason to grade something that should be like evey other one ever made.
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
>>
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks Harv >>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this...
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
>>
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks Harv >>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this... >>
I'm with ya Grit! A slabbie I ain't...
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It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this... >>
Hi..
you make a very compelling argument against having these sets slabbed.. (i own one of the NGC graded GSA Morgans, including the original black box and certificate most of the NGC-graded ones seem to have lost their black boxes along the way..) ..
on the one hand, when i get Platinum Set, i'd LOVE to know if the Reverse Proof would slab 70.. and if it did, what 70s are selling for as opposed to raw or 69.. on the other hand, as you said, "beautiful presentation for the coins" in the form of that lavish, polished wooden box.. i too think original display packaging is important, (i can't tell you how many Mint empty boxes i've bought to go along with their matching little die-cast cars in my Vintage Lesney / Machbox collection.. if you're a collector of those, you know that the box will often DOUBLE the value.. because they were so ephemeral, and so many of them were simply tossed out in the late 1950s when a kid bought a Mathbox car for fifty cents)..
regarding the Platinum set.. an empty fancy box with two slabs that won't fit into it would not have nearly the charm nor presentation that the OGP with the two coins in their gubmint capsules on their little platform would have.. whether one chooses to keep it or sell it later.. Antiques Roadshow indeed.. i get your point.. and it is a good one.. that's one reason my Jefferson First Spouse Non-Spouse Gold is still in its OGP and is going to stay there.. my (perhaps twisted) plan is to buy ONLY the First Spouse coins of those Presidents who didn't have a living wife while in office.. as that small subset (what is it, half a dozen or so?).. will have recreations of one side of classic coins of their era.. the lacquired box is gorgeous.. so.. you make a very valid point..
on the other hand, if a Platinum Reverse Proof PCGS 70 is, within the next couple of years, or even sooner.. selling for twice as much as the whole raw set, the argument to try to get it into a 70 slab is also compelling.. the "First Strike" label, which people will pay even MORE money for.. means i have to keep the box sealed when i receive it.. i don't WANT to keep the box sealed.. i want to open it and admire the coins..
a few years ago, i scored one of the rare 1995 Civil War two-coin Proof sets in the "Union case" for $45.00.. you can't touch that set these days for under $150.00 and they're still going up.. i have looked everywhere and asked everyone and NO ONE knows how many Union cased 1995 Civil War two and three coin Proof sets The Mint produced.. apparently, they never published a sales figure for them.. but it's one of the coolest OGPs The Mint has ever made.. so the two Proofs will forever stay in that reproduction Union Case as long as i own it.. (at the time, i couldn't afford the three coin version with the $5.00 Civil War Gold Proof in it).. after i bought it at a local dealer for that lowball price, i even picked up a tiny genuine Civil War era Union case on eBay for a few bucks and keep the two together in my collection..
i appreciate your opinion.. like i said, you make some very compelling arguments to leave the Platinum set as-is when it arrives.. as it's quite possible that out of the 30,000 sets, the majority of those coins will end up in slabs, and OGPs will actually be rarer..
Thanks Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
I ordered a set the first day. After a few days of thinking about it, almost $2000 for this set is too rich for my blood, so I cancelled my order today. I admire all of you that can actually buy this set and hold onto it for a while as this will definitely go up in a short amount of time. My wife and I are searching for a house at this time so realistically this isn't possible. Again congrats to all of you that can grab this set., I know I will regret cancelling my order some day.
i placed my order for the Set the first hour on 12/13/2007.. when i got the confirmation email with the order number, i went back and Tracked it and it said "suspended".. i think that meant i had accidentally placed two orders because i had two Browser windows open and the Web site was so sluggish i was flipping between them trying to get one into the shopping cart so i could complete the order.. i must've gotten two in there, so they put it on "suspended" status and kaboshed one of them.. after a couple days "suspended" changed to "on hold".. i called The Mint and asked them what "on hold" meant, and they said on ALL orders they now check the associated CC# to make sure there are funds available to cover the purchase price.. that they do this with ALL orders, not just expensive items.. well it sat there marked as "on hold" until this morning.. it now says: Order Status: Your order request is in process. at the bottom of the package it says "backordered, expected to ship 12/31/2007."..
i think if you check your order status, you'll find that everyone's order is back-ordered.. if you're keeping score at home, you'll know the sets have still not sold out, but i'd expect (and hope for..) .. a sell-out within the next couple of days, now that all the stuff they took off-sale on 12/14/2007 can no longer be ordered.. and of course, if you have not ordered one yet, but plan to squeak an order in while they're still available, do NOT pay $15.00 or whatever it is for "expedited" shipping.. just pay the $4.95 for "standard shipping".. because all US Mint orders of $300.00 or more automatically get upgraded to Fedex over-night delivery.. so there's no reason to pay three times as much for "expedited" shipping.. on this set.. once they ship it, you're gonna get it the next day for the standard $4.95 shipping charge..
as soon as the set switches to "this product ain't available, Vern, get lost".. status.. watch eBay listings.. the crystal ball tells me they'll suddenly start selling in the neighborhood of four to five grand.. just a gut feeling.. laugh or doubt or agree as is your choice.. we'll see.. meanwhile..
Thanks Harv
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
Platinum may not be as collectible as the silver or gold reverses but this is a unique item just like the other previous reverse versions. Hopefully history will repeat itself.
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
>>
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks Harv >>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this... >>
You can always have them slabed, save all the OGP and if there is a price advantage bust them back out.
PEACE! This is the first day of the rest of your life.
as soon as the set switches to "this product ain't available, Vern, get lost".. status.. watch eBay listings.. the crystal ball tells me they'll suddenly start selling in the neighborhood of four to five grand.. just a gut feeling.. laugh or doubt or agree as is your choice.. we'll see.. meanwhile..
Thanks
Harv >>
Why would it sell for that much? I don't think it's very rare!! With a 30,000 mintage. I don't think they will even be hard to obtain.
SEE the BULL!! BUY the BULL!! BE the BULL!! Do your homework first. And, you will learn alot!!
Why would it sell for that much? I don't think it's very rare!! With a 30,000 mintage. I don't think they will even be hard to obtain. >>
Hi..
let's just wait and see, shall we?.. i'm just going by a gut feeling.. i could be wrong.. no one knows yet.. on a pure metal value basis, Gold is quivering and dancing around $800/oz.. up $20 to $30 one day, down $20 to $30 the next.. meanwhile, Platinum seems to be on a steady rise and is awfully close to $1500.00/oz.. i'm not a metals analyst so i don't know all the factors at play, or why the two metals seem not to go up and down in sync with each other.. a lot of so-called experts said we'd see $1000/oz Gold by the end of 2007.. looks like that ain't gonna heppen..
30,000 isn't an ultra-low mintage, but with 300 million people in the US, and what, 100 million "households" or more?.. (i don't know the average population of bodies per "household").. the question is how many people want one, versus how many they made.. versus how many can afford one.. supply.. demand.. desire.. wallet.. maybe if The Mint hadn't put them on sale in the midst of the Xmas buying frenzy, they would have sold out in one day.. there are a lot of factors at play with a unique (Reverse Proof).. $2000.00 set of coins in the most valuable coinage metal.. if they cranked out a set like this every year.. then sure.. who'd care?..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
As a long time collector of plats, it is my opinion the the reverse plat sets will go the way of the First Spouse coins. There just aren't enough collectors to support a 30,000 mintage. Heck, there aren't enough enough collectors to support a 7500 mintage. Within 18 months, these will be selling for melt plus 5%. The only people who have bought up to this point are flippers ( who will be completely disappointed), people that will hang in for a year (and then sell in desperation) and approximately 25% of the true plat collectors (most of whom are waiting to score in the aftermarket. JMHO
Just for the records guys, I ordered a set for my personal collection. No intention of flipping whatsoever .... only question in my mind right now is whether or not to have it slabbed. Kind of like the idea of letting it sit in it's original packaging. However ... if I get it slabbed it would probably make it a little more liquid in the event I decided to sell it.
Platinum looking quite impressive.....................unlike silver and gold, Platinum is a truly "rare" metal
From Bloomberg:
Platinum Climbs to Record on Possible Russian Supply Disruption
By Claudia Carpenter
Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Platinum rose to a record in London on speculation Russia, the world's second-biggest producer, will not approve licenses for the new year, spurring borrowers to tap other sources of supply.
Prices climbed 9.4 percent in the first quarter this year as Russia delayed export quotas, halting shipments until May. The cost of borrowing platinum for one year has risen to 3.82 percent, compared with an average of 3.48 percent in the past 12 months, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
``There has been nothing yet'' out of Russia for new export licenses in 2008, Rory McVeigh, a senior trader at Commerzbank AG, said by phone from Luxembourg. ``Exports could be limited.''
Platinum for immediate delivery gained $13, or 0.9 percent, to $1,490 an ounce as of 4:35 p.m. in London after earlier trading at $1,496.50, exceeding the previous high on Nov. 7 by $7. Rates reflect expectations about the amount of metal available for borrowing.
``There is more borrowing in the market,'' said McVeigh.
Russia's platinum output will be unchanged next year at 980,000 ounces, Societe Generale SA forecast in a Dec. 14 report. Other countries, including South Africa, the biggest producer, will supply 6.29 million ounces, compared with 5.8 million this year.
Prices have climbed 31 percent this year as strikes and accidents disrupted output at a time of increased demand from automakers. Car manufacturers use the metal in catalytic converters to reduce pollution from tailpipes.
The 2:15 p.m. platinum ``fixing'' price used by some mining companies to sell their production rose $20 to a record $1,482 an ounce.
Why would it sell for that much? I don't think it's very rare!! With a 30,000 mintage. I don't think they will even be hard to obtain. >>
Hi..
let's just wait and see, shall we?.. i'm just going by a gut feeling.. i could be wrong.. no one knows yet.. on a pure metal value basis, Gold is quivering and dancing around $800/oz.. up $20 to $30 one day, down $20 to $30 the next.. meanwhile, Platinum seems to be on a steady rise and is awfully close to $1500.00/oz.. i'm not a metals analyst so i don't know all the factors at play, or why the two metals seem not to go up and down in sync with each other.. a lot of so-called experts said we'd see $1000/oz Gold by the end of 2007.. looks like that ain't gonna heppen..
30,000 isn't an ultra-low mintage, but with 300 million people in the US, and what, 100 million "households" or more?.. (i don't know the average population of bodies per "household").. the question is how many people want one, versus how many they made.. versus how many can afford one.. supply.. demand.. desire.. wallet.. maybe if The Mint hadn't put them on sale in the midst of the Xmas buying frenzy, they would have sold out in one day.. there are a lot of factors at play with a unique (Reverse Proof).. $2000.00 set of coins in the most valuable coinage metal.. if they cranked out a set like this every year.. then sure.. who'd care?.. >>
I don't buy that logic at all. Thirty thousand is way too many. Even with the ubber special enhanced double secret probation reverse and PCGS not wanting to do the same labeling strategy as last year, these will be melt plus small premium. This is not like the 230th Anniversary of the Marine Corps and Buffalo Silver Dollar. The Platinum collector base in numbers is nowhere near the silver and gold eagle numbers. If you think that 30,000 can easily be absorbed and these coins will bring 4 or 5 thousand, then why aren't the 2006 W Platinum uncs not going for that kind of money? There are only 2,500+/- of each of the 2006 W denominations. The 2004 W Proofs should be asking 4 or 5 grand. The 2007 W enhanced reverse proof is not that special. Look at the earlier years and see that it's been done. One can't say that of the silver and gold rp's of last year.
I just don't buy it, even though I bought one set.
I agree that these will be quite plentiful. They should be interesting enough to get non platinum collectors to obtain and hold them so there will be a small premium but still plentiful and available.
My guess is at current bullion pricing the reverse proofs will maintain $1100-$1500 for PR69 and $1800-$2100 for PR70
<< <i>I agree that these will be quite plentiful. They should be interesting enough to get non platinum collectors to obtain and hold them so there will be a small premium but still plentiful and available.
My guess is at current bullion pricing the reverse proofs will maintain $1100-$1500 for PR69 and $1800-$2100 for PR70 >>
I think First Strike® changes everything, the PR70 Reverse Proof for at least double the non First Strike®, The First Strike® PR70DCAM may also be the key to a perfect anniversary set and should trade above the Reverse Proof depending on how well the Reverse Proof's grade.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Called Mint today,sets are still available, operator put me on hold to answer a few questions of mine and told me the sets will no be available after 12/31/07 because of the rules of selling previous year coins. Is this true? So maybe it won't hit 30,000 sets. Yaha
<< <i>This is my estimate for the number of sets sold and
to be sold by day.
12/13.......9,000
12/14.......6,000
12/15.......5,000
12/16.......4,000
12/17.......2000
12/18.......2,000
12/19.......1,000
12/20..........500
12/21..........500
Now, we deduct 1,000 sets for a variety of reasons such as wrong credit card # duplicate orders ect ect and another 500 sets for returns then the issue should be sold out in 5 additional day or 12/26/07. The Mint may continue to accept names on a waiting list till Jan 10th but the game will be over. >>
<< <i>Just for the records guys, I ordered a set for my personal collection. No intention of flipping whatsoever .... only question in my mind right now is whether or not to have it slabbed. Kind of like the idea of letting it sit in it's original packaging. However ... if I get it slabbed it would probably make it a little more liquid in the event I decided to sell it. >>
PaultJuno, there lies the rub.....To slab or not to slab? That is the question....I say slab!!!
Look at the latest Mint order# by Enjoymint.....we may have a sellout Tuesday!!!!!
Or, at the least.....the Wise Old Bear laid out a perfectly fine sales plan.
Either way....this set is gone by Friday!!!!!!!!!!
At this point, most orders are regular "Christmas gift items"--proof sets and the like. Anyone who guesses 2/3 of the orders since release are 10th Plat is dreaming. Not saying they won't sell out this week, just saying to be reasonable and manage your expectations.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
I guess alot depends on how fast they sellout, how PCGS decides to designate the set, how many coins are shipped in time for the First Strike® deadline and how well the Proof grades compared to the Reverse Proof. Currently the 1/2 ounce 2007-W Proof has a 16% PR70DCAM ratio with a total population of 72 out of 428 graded (First Strike® and non First Strike®). I believe the Reverse Proof will have a much higher 70 ratio and why IMO the Proof will be the key of a perfect 10th anniversary platinum set. I would say if PCGS designates both coins 10th anniversary and First Strike®, the 70 set will probably go for more than $6,000.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Comments
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks
Harv >>
The mint gets the same price for a 65 as they do for a 70. With modern manufacturing methods and a little care, the mint should produce nothing but 69s and 70s and much of the time there is no discernible difference between them. The Mint with a little quality control should not even be letting 68s out the door, but I suppose they figger why not, most won't comlain and if anyone does we'll fix it. There is no reason to grade something that should be like evey other one ever made.
<< <i>
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks
Harv >>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this...
Post order# when you get your 10th Plat Set!!
What if you only want to order two or three sets?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks
Harv >>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this... >>
I'm with ya Grit! A slabbie I ain't...
<< <i>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this... >>
Hi..
you make a very compelling argument against having these sets slabbed.. (i own one of the NGC graded GSA Morgans, including the original black box and certificate most of the NGC-graded ones seem to have lost their black boxes along the way..) ..
on the one hand, when i get Platinum Set, i'd LOVE to know if the Reverse Proof would slab 70.. and if it did, what 70s are selling for as opposed to raw or 69.. on the other hand, as you said, "beautiful presentation for the coins" in the form of that lavish, polished wooden box.. i too think original display packaging is important, (i can't tell you how many Mint empty boxes i've bought to go along with their matching little die-cast cars in my Vintage Lesney / Machbox collection.. if you're a collector of those, you know that the box will often DOUBLE the value.. because they were so ephemeral, and so many of them were simply tossed out in the late 1950s when a kid bought a Mathbox car for fifty cents)..
regarding the Platinum set.. an empty fancy box with two slabs that won't fit into it would not have nearly the charm nor presentation that the OGP with the two coins in their gubmint capsules on their little platform would have.. whether one chooses to keep it or sell it later.. Antiques Roadshow indeed.. i get your point.. and it is a good one.. that's one reason my Jefferson First Spouse Non-Spouse Gold is still in its OGP and is going to stay there.. my (perhaps twisted) plan is to buy ONLY the First Spouse coins of those Presidents who didn't have a living wife while in office.. as that small subset (what is it, half a dozen or so?).. will have recreations of one side of classic coins of their era.. the lacquired box is gorgeous.. so.. you make a very valid point..
on the other hand, if a Platinum Reverse Proof PCGS 70 is, within the next couple of years, or even sooner.. selling for twice as much as the whole raw set, the argument to try to get it into a 70 slab is also compelling.. the "First Strike" label, which people will pay even MORE money for.. means i have to keep the box sealed when i receive it.. i don't WANT to keep the box sealed.. i want to open it and admire the coins..
a few years ago, i scored one of the rare 1995 Civil War two-coin Proof sets in the "Union case" for $45.00.. you can't touch that set these days for under $150.00 and they're still going up.. i have looked everywhere and asked everyone and NO ONE knows how many Union cased 1995 Civil War two and three coin Proof sets The Mint produced.. apparently, they never published a sales figure for them.. but it's one of the coolest OGPs The Mint has ever made.. so the two Proofs will forever stay in that reproduction Union Case as long as i own it.. (at the time, i couldn't afford the three coin version with the $5.00 Civil War Gold Proof in it).. after i bought it at a local dealer for that lowball price, i even picked up a tiny genuine Civil War era Union case on eBay for a few bucks and keep the two together in my collection..
i appreciate your opinion.. like i said, you make some very compelling arguments to leave the Platinum set as-is when it arrives.. as it's quite possible that out of the 30,000 sets, the majority of those coins will end up in slabs, and OGPs will actually be rarer..
Thanks
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
http://ProofCollection.Net
i placed my order for the Set the first hour on 12/13/2007.. when i got the confirmation email with the order number, i went back and Tracked it and it said "suspended".. i think that meant i had accidentally placed two orders because i had two Browser windows open and the Web site was so sluggish i was flipping between them trying to get one into the shopping cart so i could complete the order.. i must've gotten two in there, so they put it on "suspended" status and kaboshed one of them.. after a couple days "suspended" changed to "on hold".. i called The Mint and asked them what "on hold" meant, and they said on ALL orders they now check the associated CC# to make sure there are funds available to cover the purchase price.. that they do this with ALL orders, not just expensive items.. well it sat there marked as "on hold" until this morning.. it now says: Order Status: Your order request is in process. at the bottom of the package it says "backordered, expected to ship 12/31/2007."..
i think if you check your order status, you'll find that everyone's order is back-ordered.. if you're keeping score at home, you'll know the sets have still not sold out, but i'd expect (and hope for..) .. a sell-out within the next couple of days, now that all the stuff they took off-sale on 12/14/2007 can no longer be ordered.. and of course, if you have not ordered one yet, but plan to squeak an order in while they're still available, do NOT pay $15.00 or whatever it is for "expedited" shipping.. just pay the $4.95 for "standard shipping".. because all US Mint orders of $300.00 or more automatically get upgraded to Fedex over-night delivery.. so there's no reason to pay three times as much for "expedited" shipping.. on this set.. once they ship it, you're gonna get it the next day for the standard $4.95 shipping charge..
as soon as the set switches to "this product ain't available, Vern, get lost".. status.. watch eBay listings.. the crystal ball tells me they'll suddenly start selling in the neighborhood of four to five grand.. just a gut feeling.. laugh or doubt or agree as is your choice.. we'll see..
meanwhile..
Thanks
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Except for the 6 or 8 of us who believe First Strike and, in fact, grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time.
ALL THE WAY WITH O-G-P!
Hi.. please explain the rationale behind your statement.. i am not being argumentative or contrary.. i want to know your reasoning.. i agree this whole "First Strike" and "Early Release" labelling is utter nonsense.. but i want to know why you said "grading in general for proof platinums is a waste of time".. why?..
Thanks
Harv >>
It's been my observation that the VAST majority of new Mint products are 69s and 70s, especially when we are talking about proof or burnished-die eagles. I've looked at both 69s and 70s and the differences are so minute as to be unimportant to me personally. I have a 69 plat burnished die, for instance, that has a little rim flaw. To me, that just makes it unique. I do respect those striving for absolute perfection, but for me, perfection is kind of sterile.
MORE important, I think slabbing these gorgeous coins really cuts down on their aesthetics. The Mint generally does an excellent job creating beautiful presentation for the coins, and I much prefer seeing them in that setting--or just taking out the capsule and looking at it. I TOTALLY believe that slabbing/grading for older coins is invaluable, but it just seems pointless for coins that are either perfect or so close to it that's it's almost undetectable.
Just my thoughts... I'll also add that I love it that others are slabbing so rampantly because I fully believe my coins in OGP are going to command a significant premium in the future. Just look at the GSA holders for Morgans... Look at a 2004 1/2-ounce plat proof. How many of those survive in individual OGP? My guess is it cannot be more than a couple of hundred. Perhaps it's even a lot fewer. People here should be watching Antiques Roadshow...the lesson is abundantly clear.
I'd love to hear everyone else pitch in on this... >>
You can always have them slabed, save all the OGP and if there is a price advantage bust them back out.
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
as soon as the set switches to "this product ain't available, Vern, get lost".. status.. watch eBay listings.. the crystal ball tells me they'll suddenly start selling in the neighborhood of four to five grand.. just a gut feeling.. laugh or doubt or agree as is your choice.. we'll see..
meanwhile..
Thanks
Harv >>
Why would it sell for that much? I don't think it's very rare!! With a 30,000 mintage. I don't think they will even be hard to obtain.
values for the set. This will reduce the returns to zilch.
Camelot
<< <i>
Why would it sell for that much? I don't think it's very rare!! With a 30,000 mintage. I don't think they will even be hard to obtain. >>
Hi..
let's just wait and see, shall we?.. i'm just going by a gut feeling.. i could be wrong.. no one knows yet.. on a pure metal value basis, Gold is quivering and dancing around $800/oz.. up $20 to $30 one day, down $20 to $30 the next.. meanwhile, Platinum seems to be on a steady rise and is awfully close to $1500.00/oz.. i'm not a metals analyst so i don't know all the factors at play, or why the two metals seem not to go up and down in sync with each other.. a lot of so-called experts said we'd see $1000/oz Gold by the end of 2007.. looks like that ain't gonna heppen..
30,000 isn't an ultra-low mintage, but with 300 million people in the US, and what, 100 million "households" or more?.. (i don't know the average population of bodies per "household").. the question is how many people want one, versus how many they made.. versus how many can afford one.. supply.. demand.. desire.. wallet.. maybe if The Mint hadn't put them on sale in the midst of the Xmas buying frenzy, they would have sold out in one day.. there are a lot of factors at play with a unique (Reverse Proof).. $2000.00 set of coins in the most valuable coinage metal.. if they cranked out a set like this every year.. then sure.. who'd care?..
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
The only people who have bought up to this point are flippers ( who will be completely disappointed), people that will hang in for a year (and then sell in desperation) and approximately 25% of the true plat collectors (most of whom are waiting to score in the aftermarket. JMHO
Whaddya say Buff Hunter, do you agree?
Ah, just dreaming, I guess.
I knew it would happen.
From Bloomberg:
Platinum Climbs to Record on Possible Russian Supply Disruption
By Claudia Carpenter
Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Platinum rose to a record in London on speculation Russia, the world's second-biggest producer, will not approve licenses for the new year, spurring borrowers to tap other sources of supply.
Prices climbed 9.4 percent in the first quarter this year as Russia delayed export quotas, halting shipments until May. The cost of borrowing platinum for one year has risen to 3.82 percent, compared with an average of 3.48 percent in the past 12 months, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
``There has been nothing yet'' out of Russia for new export licenses in 2008, Rory McVeigh, a senior trader at Commerzbank AG, said by phone from Luxembourg. ``Exports could be limited.''
Platinum for immediate delivery gained $13, or 0.9 percent, to $1,490 an ounce as of 4:35 p.m. in London after earlier trading at $1,496.50, exceeding the previous high on Nov. 7 by $7. Rates reflect expectations about the amount of metal available for borrowing.
``There is more borrowing in the market,'' said McVeigh.
Russia's platinum output will be unchanged next year at 980,000 ounces, Societe Generale SA forecast in a Dec. 14 report. Other countries, including South Africa, the biggest producer, will supply 6.29 million ounces, compared with 5.8 million this year.
Prices have climbed 31 percent this year as strikes and accidents disrupted output at a time of increased demand from automakers. Car manufacturers use the metal in catalytic converters to reduce pollution from tailpipes.
The 2:15 p.m. platinum ``fixing'' price used by some mining companies to sell their production rose $20 to a record $1,482 an ounce.
Bloomberg
<< <i>
<< <i>
Why would it sell for that much? I don't think it's very rare!! With a 30,000 mintage. I don't think they will even be hard to obtain. >>
Hi..
let's just wait and see, shall we?.. i'm just going by a gut feeling.. i could be wrong.. no one knows yet.. on a pure metal value basis, Gold is quivering and dancing around $800/oz.. up $20 to $30 one day, down $20 to $30 the next.. meanwhile, Platinum seems to be on a steady rise and is awfully close to $1500.00/oz.. i'm not a metals analyst so i don't know all the factors at play, or why the two metals seem not to go up and down in sync with each other.. a lot of so-called experts said we'd see $1000/oz Gold by the end of 2007.. looks like that ain't gonna heppen..
30,000 isn't an ultra-low mintage, but with 300 million people in the US, and what, 100 million "households" or more?.. (i don't know the average population of bodies per "household").. the question is how many people want one, versus how many they made.. versus how many can afford one.. supply.. demand.. desire.. wallet.. maybe if The Mint hadn't put them on sale in the midst of the Xmas buying frenzy, they would have sold out in one day.. there are a lot of factors at play with a unique (Reverse Proof).. $2000.00 set of coins in the most valuable coinage metal.. if they cranked out a set like this every year.. then sure.. who'd care?.. >>
I don't buy that logic at all. Thirty thousand is way too many. Even with the ubber special enhanced double secret probation reverse and PCGS not wanting to do the same labeling strategy as last year, these will be melt plus small premium. This is not like the 230th Anniversary of the Marine Corps and Buffalo Silver Dollar. The Platinum collector base in numbers is nowhere near the silver and gold eagle numbers. If you think that 30,000 can easily be absorbed and these coins will bring 4 or 5 thousand, then why aren't the 2006 W Platinum uncs not going for that kind of money? There are only 2,500+/- of each of the 2006 W denominations. The 2004 W Proofs should be asking 4 or 5 grand. The 2007 W enhanced reverse proof is not that special. Look at the earlier years and see that it's been done. One can't say that of the silver and gold rp's of last year.
I just don't buy it, even though I bought one set.
Ren
My guess is at current bullion pricing the reverse proofs will maintain $1100-$1500 for PR69 and $1800-$2100 for PR70
<< <i>I agree that these will be quite plentiful. They should be interesting enough to get non platinum collectors to obtain and hold them so there will be a small premium but still plentiful and available.
My guess is at current bullion pricing the reverse proofs will maintain $1100-$1500 for PR69 and $1800-$2100 for PR70 >>
I think First Strike® changes everything, the PR70 Reverse Proof for at least double the non First Strike®, The First Strike® PR70DCAM may also be the key to a perfect anniversary set and should trade above the Reverse Proof depending on how well the Reverse Proof's grade.
<< <i>This is my estimate for the number of sets sold and
to be sold by day.
12/13.......9,000
12/14.......6,000
12/15.......5,000
12/16.......4,000
12/17.......2000
12/18.......2,000
12/19.......1,000
12/20..........500
12/21..........500
Now, we deduct 1,000 sets for a variety of reasons such as wrong credit card #
duplicate orders ect ect and another 500 sets for returns then the issue should be
sold out in 5 additional day or 12/26/07. The Mint may continue to accept names on
a waiting list till Jan 10th but the game will be over. >>
Friday is only 4 days away.
Camelot
<< <i>Order #27536xxx @ 10:30 on 12/17 >>
Thanks for posting Enjoymint......we could have now ~67,000 sales since the opening bell on Thursday @noon.
VERY Conservatively I surmise.....65% are 10th Ann. Plat sets
67,000 x 65% = 43,550
SELLOUT TUESDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are yah with me forum Members?????????
<< <i>Just for the records guys, I ordered a set for my personal collection. No intention of flipping whatsoever .... only question in my mind right now is whether or not to have it slabbed. Kind of like the idea of letting it sit in it's original packaging. However ... if I get it slabbed it would probably make it a little more liquid in the event I decided to sell it. >>
PaultJuno, there lies the rub.....To slab or not to slab? That is the question....I say slab!!!
Look at the latest Mint order# by Enjoymint.....we may have a sellout Tuesday!!!!!
Or, at the least.....the Wise Old Bear laid out a perfectly fine sales plan.
Either way....this set is gone by Friday!!!!!!!!!!
Merry Christmas Forumates!!!
I can't even manage Mrs Bear.
Camelot
the sets will no be available after 12/31/07 because of the rules of selling previous year coins. Is this true?
Nah. They'll keep selling 2007 products in 2008. Maybe even until summer - just depends on how unpopular some items are.
<< <i>I can't even manage Mrs Bear >>
Bear, if you are as wise as I think you are, you know not even to try!
<< <i>Manage my expectations?
I can't even manage Mrs Bear.
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>I don't know. Platinum is on fire lately, rapidly approaching $1500/oz. >>
Hi.. as i type this.. it's passed $1500/oz..
http://tinyurl.com/2mcypf
Thanks
Harv
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
Successful forum transactions: jessewvu, nankraut, tootawl, levinll, mistercoinman, metalsman, adamlaneus, chuckc, fivecents, kingplatinum, jdimmick, waterzooey, moderncoinmart, bige, steelielee,
<< <i>I see PCGS 6,000 for a 70 set to start. >>
I guess alot depends on how fast they sellout, how PCGS decides to designate the set, how many coins are shipped in time for the First Strike® deadline and how well the Proof grades compared to the Reverse Proof. Currently the 1/2 ounce 2007-W Proof has a 16% PR70DCAM ratio with a total population of 72 out of 428 graded (First Strike® and non First Strike®). I believe the Reverse Proof will have a much higher 70 ratio and why IMO the Proof will be the key of a perfect 10th anniversary platinum set. I would say if PCGS designates both coins 10th anniversary and First Strike®, the 70 set will probably go for more than $6,000.
<< <i>
<< <i>Manage my expectations?
I can't even manage Mrs Bear.
We had a slightly different solution to that equation in my math class.
San Diego, CA
if Woman = problems, and girls = evil....why bother??
<< <i>
<< <i>Manage my expectations?
I can't even manage Mrs Bear.
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
Camelot
<< <i>They're already selling NGC graded sets in Coin World even before they ship
I thought Burnished was reserved for the unc versions and not the proofs.
Ren
this from the west point mint site appears to be an enhanced reverse proof platinum.
WEEKLY SALES REPORT AS OF DEC 17TH
2007-W UNC PLATS
$100...931
$50....904
$25....927
$10....3312
4 COIN SETS 2423
ANNIVERSARY TWO COIN HALF PLAT PROOF SET
14,682
SO THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS!
<< <i>Ericj96 Posted the following info. in a different thread. Does not look like a sell-out any time soon.
WEEKLY SALES REPORT AS OF DEC 17TH
2007-W UNC PLATS
$100...931
$50....904
$25....927
$10....3312
4 COIN SETS 2423
ANNIVERSARY TWO COIN HALF PLAT PROOF SET
14,682
SO THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS! >>
How does ericj96 gets these Mint #'s???? Is he a Mint employee??? Has he the same source as NN?? Thanks.
<< <i>How does ericj96 gets these Mint #'s???? Is he a Mint employee??? Has he the same source as NN?? Thanks. >>
I have no idea, you will need to ask him. His information has always been reliable in the past.