Griv, et. al. - I think you are being a little too hard now on Dimeman. He has learned a tough lesson now concerning the coin biz. He approached this deal like he was conducting "business" with his fellow cub scout leader. His expectations, as such, were clearly unreasonable. But, I believe he will learn from this transaction. And, he might even have a deeper appreciation for moderns as he learns just how tough it is to "make" great coins, including those with designations.
Wondercoin
P.S. Griv - I sent you an email back from my Blackberry this afternoon while watching the Red Sox slaughter our Angels. If you did not get that email, let me know and I can send it again.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Okay WC, as always you seem to have the grasp on where the line is drawn. So . . .
Dimeman, for what it's worth, I am sorry for my attacks even though.&^#*^$!!! With that said, I and I would like to start over not to mention that I'm sure you will make peace with Paul as well.
When did this forum get this harse? Is it tied to the violence in Iraq? Is Iran to blame for dimeman's coments? (go with me dimeman on this even though, hmmm? I can't really say why.)Do we even know it was dimeman who started this? The world seems to be revolving at thousands of miles an hour and my kids are telling me I need to get the heck off "the" computer. Can someone define what has gone on in the last few years? Oops! I meant coin wise! I think I know why my kids are crazy, but why are the bullion coins crazy?
I seem once again to be Griv'd. And with a full bladder!!! CURSES!!!
First of all I would like to thank the members who felt I had a problem with the way the transaction went.
I never once attacked anyone personally, but did vent back at Griv on some of his attacks. For that I apologize. I think grivs dislike of me goes back to my attacks on moderns, which I also apologize for. I still don't like them but I have nothing against those who do.
Lastly, Paul, I am very confused on your previous thread where you stated if I hadn't gone public you would have done this and that. Well I went to you privitely several times and you said the deal was done and that was that. That is when I posted the thread. You said in your thread that you would have sent the coin to me or paid the difference. Well why won't you do that?
And for those who think this is a matter of selling a coin to someone and then they get an upgrade on it............it's not!
If I would have had the 57-P in a PCGS66 holder and sold it to Paul and he upgrades it fine! BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED! I sent him coins(raw) and the 57-P was described by him as 66FB which is a $450 coin. It comes back 66 no bands which is a $35 coin. He knows it is a FB coin and shoots me 50 bucks knowing it will FB. HE called it a FB coin and it was a FB coin. And he gives me no band money + a little for it. The reason I sent him the coins in the first place is because I know how he likes Roosies, so I thought he would enjoy looking at them and maybe buy some of them if they graded good enough.
Paul, if you really think these two senarioes(SP) are the same and you have done nothing wrong, OK I must be losing my mind because they are completely different to me.
You do whatever you think is right.
I just know that I have never done anything like this and NEVER will.
I appreciate your last post dimeman and it seems we can all move on, I hope. Sounds like we might need a group hug.
Another of the world's problems somewhat peacefully solved. If only they'd let us solve the Middle East. Well, maybe that might be a little tougher than full steps, but just barely.
<< <i>The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore? >>
The pop report may still show 19/3...but the info for that coin in the registry sets now shows 35/3...the pop report will be updated over the weekend. With the pop for the coin in question increasing by 16, and all at once no less, look for the price to drop like a rock.
I wish every time I called a coin FB or Red or DMPL that PCGS would eventually put it in the right holder. Geesh!
Let me get the facts straight from the most relevant point -
Dimeman accepted $50 for the coin and said nothing. Dimeman could have said, "I don't want the fiddy, send the coin back." or he could have said, "Here's 30 more let's try one more time if you really think it is a FB coin." He did neither.
Stooge resubmitted the coin on a chance that it would get FB (failed once already) on his own "dime" so to speak assuming all the risk of getting a non-FB back.
Stooge does in fact get an FB designation on the coin.
Dimeman wants a share of the upgraded value (it is of course the same coin underneath the plastic) even though he had no stake in the gamble.
What a whiner ... Dimeman must be new to the submission game.
What if Stooge tried three more times and didn't get FB and then told Dimeman, "Well I tried your coin three more times and lost, so I think you owe me at least half of the submission fees."
Dimeman ... quit whining and submit your own coins from now own.
Stooge resubmitted the coin on a chance that it would get FB (failed once already) on his own "dime" so to speak assuming all the risk of getting a non-FB back.
On a "chance?" Note that as a seasoned Roosy collector he basically said he knew and was positive he'd get the FB designation. That's a far cry from a non-specialist "hoping" for an upgrade. In Dimeman's defense, he had never even seen the back of the coin.
Dimeman wants a share of the upgraded value (it is of course the same coin underneath the plastic) even though he had no stake in the gamble.
No stake in the gamble? He put up $200 in grading fees for that set and that's money out the window. If anything, he put up the majority of the money in the "gamble."
What if Stooge tried three more times and didn't get FB and then told Dimeman, "Well I tried your coin three more times and lost, so I think you owe me at least half of the submission fees."
We aren't talking 3 more times. The issue only involves the first and second submission....not another 3. If the coin had come back non-FB on the 2nd try, that's when the bets are all off. It would have been graded twice - consistent on both. Fair market grade determined and verified...end of story. But no doubt there are examples where extremely expensive coins have been sold off by collectors only to be tried many times and then upgraded. No doubt the selling collector feels a bit "cheated" in the end about the one that got away. But if someone met his selling price, all is fair. What isn't all fair is when a counter-offer is made on the coin after being "talked down" by the dealer. Those kinds of upgrades are tainted imo. That's not the way to win repeat business!
The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore?
Jon >>
So Dimeman, you can't keep your trap shut can you? I already said I would sue you for deflammation of character if you had done to me what you did to Stooge. Now you're back CRYING over your $150. Anyone that thinks Dimeman has a case is sadly mistaken. Dimeman is a whinning baby and should drop this issue and apologize but instead is still boo hooing over $150. PM me Dimebaby with your address as I'll gladly send you the $150 just to shut you up.
Geez, I thought this train wreck had come to and end.
The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore?
Jon >>
So Dimeman, you can't keep your trap shut can you? I already said I would sue you for deflammation of character if you had done to me what you did to Stooge. Now you're back CRYING over your $150. Anyone that thinks Dimeman has a case is sadly mistaken. Dimeman is a whinning baby and should drop this issue and apologize but instead is still boo hooing over $150. PM me Dimebaby with your address as I'll gladly send you the $150 just to shut you up.
Geez, I thought this train wreck had come to and end. >>
This isn't an issue about some regrade, it might have seemed to have been about that to the casual reader. What it's REALLY about is a PRIVATE transaction by two colleagues (I'm hesitant to say friends at this point) where the circumstances are arguable depending on your views but then Dimeman took this issue to a PUBLIC FORUM. Whether Dimeman is RIGHT or WRONG he has damaged Stooge's reputation in the eyes of some people here (not mine) and THAT IS JUST WRONG.
So I do NOT feel the need to lighten up as long as this disgraceful thread continues to be pushed by Dimeman after Stooge clearly offered Dimeman a generous resolution. And I would advise you to read the entire thread before you get your undees in a bundle over my post. Thanks.
Why can't you guys just let this issue go? I could care less who is right but the continuation of this thread really gets me flaming. Just let it go. I'll even say please.
I can't begin to tell ya of all the PM's I've had...unreal.
Jon, You said that you are having a real hard time trying to figure out what I have been trying to say, but no one else has had this problem. I think that you have selective reading, and only try to decipher what you want to read.
Yes, I said you could post whatever you wanted on this thread, but did you ever once think that "I may have been RIPPED off by Stooge" wasn't hurtful? It was very hurtful and irregardless of who reads this, they will forever think that I'm a "Slimeball" and "Unethical" no matter what I do and say. I also have taken into account that since they know my eBay handle as MS69FB, that after reading this thread that they may stay clear of my auctions. I offered to you $150 of which several well known and well respected posters on this Forum have stated to you that this WAS a very fair and reasonable offer. You initially turned it down, only to get Flamed on this thread and in some of my PM's, but now have reconsidered the offer and stated that you would gladly accept it.
Come on Paul. You never once offered any kind of deal between us on the PM's like you stated you would have if I had ask. I did ask and got nothing from you but "it's a done deal" and "go ahead and post what you like".
And I did not turn down your offer of $150 and flame you! Why can't you do the right here. All we are doing here is getting griv upset and we sure don't want that!
"The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did."
I do not see a DEADLINE to accept this offer? Dimeman accepted it after some consideration and prior to any deadline EXPIRING? Why wouldn't Dimeman be owed $150 at this point?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I don't believe the lack of a stated deadline in the post means that it is an infinitely available option. If I offer you a deal on a coin at a show and you walk away then that deal might not be on the table ten minutes later. Additionally, Paul's offer contained the following disclaimer-
<< <i>if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing >>
There were two subsequent posts by Jon after that time that might be construed as having a complaint in them while neither contained an acceptance of the offer. In my opinion, the offer is null and void if Paul says so at this point.
Part of the $150 deal as I understand it was on the condition that Dimeman stop the attacks and only after another attack post did the offer get retracted and I fully agree. This issue should be resolved. Did Dimeman get a bad deal? I'm not sure anyone here got a good deal but I'd like to think grown men can find a way to resolve such a minor issue without public attacks on integrity. Save your attacks for ugly modern coins.
If anything, this has truly become the "Days of Our Lives" thread on PCGS.
<< <i>I don't believe the lack of a stated deadline in the post means that it is an infinitely available option. If I offer you a deal on a coin at a show and you walk away then that deal might not be on the table ten minutes later. Additionally, Paul's offer contained the following disclaimer-
<< <i>if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing >>
There were two subsequent posts by Jon after that time that might be construed as having a complaint in them while neither contained an acceptance of the offer. In my opinion, the offer is null and void if Paul says so at this point. >>
This was/is the main reason I've retracted my offer. I originally offered the $150, and you tried again to get $400. Nothing I say or do would truly make you happy.
"You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum"
In all fairness, it was just pointed out to me that the above sounds like a counteroffer, thus voiding the original offer and releasing the offeror from his obligation. Where is the "Contracts 101" professor when you need one!!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Quite frankly, this thread has not hurt my opinion of you at all. I'd bid in any of your auctions in a minute or less. However, it sure has changed my opinion of dimeman. I wouldn't engage in ANY sort of deal with him. Dimeman seems the sort of person for whom a proposed deal--be it submitting a coin or paying $150--never expires as long as the deal benefits him.
Taclough - this deal is in no way like your deal with the 2 commens that were already graded, which you sold as those grades. Doesn't anyone see the difference.
Paul - I did nothing to make you take back the $150 deal!
My biggest mistake here was trusting someone to do what I would have done. I will NEVER make that mistake again!!!!!
Paul I never intended this to get into shouting match with other people jumping in and attacking either of us.
As for those who stated that you would never do any dealings with me................I'll try to make it without you!
Quite frankly, this thread has not hurt my opinion of you at all. I'd bid in any of your auctions in a minute or less. However, it sure has changed my opinion of dimeman. I wouldn't engage in ANY sort of deal with him. Dimeman seems the sort of person for whom a proposed deal--be it submitting a coin or paying $150--never expires as long as the deal benefits him. >>
<< <i> Taclough - this deal is in no way like your deal with the 2 commens that were already graded, which you sold as those grades. Doesn't anyone see the difference. >>
Dimeman,
This is different how? The 1957-P dime was already graded when you sold it. Once you sell or trade a coin you no longer have any interest in that coin unless conditions are spelled out at the time of the sale / trade. What is so hard about understanding this? Where is the difference from the deal with the two commemoratives that I made and stated in an earlier post?
You know Mark, I am sick and tired of you and the others out there kissing up to Paul and saying how bad I am to deal with!
In the first place it wasn't a "DEAL". I sent Paul some dimes to look at and see if there were any worth sending in. He said the 57-P was a 66FB. And here is the KEY. He knew it was a FB coin. When it came back no bands he KNEW it WAS FB and knew he was sending it back in. He NEVER mentioned to me sending it back in. He shot me a check for no band money knowing he was getting a FB coin.
ANYBODY NOT SEEING THIS AS A SCREW JOB JUST DOESN'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dimeman - Did you read OnlyRoosies postings as well as a few of mine where the issue of band designation was discussed? In a nutshell, there is virtually NO SUCH THING as a sure thing "FB" Roosie that is sitting in a freshly graded non-FB holder. When you speak in terms of someone knowing for sure a coin will upgrade, especially a Roosie FB designation upgrade, you appear ignorant of the realities of what goes into the upgrading of such coins.
Since Paul could not have known for sure what PCGS might have done later and since you failed to secure a "bonus" for yourself in the possible event of a future upgrade - you have a very hollow argument the way I see it - perhaps none at all.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The difference is you had the coins in hand and saw them and what they were graded. My coins were in a whitman folder and I hadn't seem them in 25-30 years.
IF I had sent the coin in and got the 66 no band grade AND then sent it to Paul or anyone else AND they send it in and get the FB that would be like your deal and I would not have ANY complaint!!!
My complaint is Paul KNEW it was FB and couldn't wait to buy it for no band money! Then he says in a post here that if I would have got with him he would have sent me the coin or paid $400 for it. Well he WOULD NOT deal with me privitely and here we are!
<< <i>You know Mark, I am sick and tired of you and the others out there kissing up to Paul and saying how bad I am to deal with!
In the first place it wasn't a "DEAL". I sent Paul some dimes to look at and see if there were any worth sending in. He said the 57-P was a 66FB. And here is the KEY. He knew it was a FB coin. When it came back no bands he KNEW it WAS FB and knew he was sending it back in. He NEVER mentioned to me sending it back in. He shot me a check for no band money knowing he was getting a FB coin.
ANYBODY NOT SEEING THIS AS A SCREW JOB JUST DOESN'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Dimeman,
I am not "kissing up" to Paul, heck I don't even know him. YOU are the one who started this thread and even in your title you ask "What do you think?". If you don't like the answers then you shouldn't have asked the question!!!!!!!
Bottom line, even you stated that Paul told you the coin in question was a MS66 FB before it was even sent in to PCGS, and you cashed the check.
It seems to me that if anyone who calls himself dimeman sends DIMES (of all things) that he hasn't looked at in years for someone else to look at then first off I would say: 1. Change your login name 2. Look at your coins before you send them, lazy
Next, I'm not kissing up as I don't know Stooge either and if Stooge could have done a better job keeping you from being ignorant then sure, I'd say so but you blew it when you took this public. The one thing you can be sure of is that Stooge will NEVER give you a deal in the future and you have really damaged your reputation with everyone here. I still love you though.
If he told you it was a FB and it graded for less and then you sold it for non-FB then you are the one who doubted Stooge. You could have said, "Stooge, I post ALL the time how slabbed coins are crap and I believe in you, please submit it again." But no, you took the offered price and now you think Stooge should have twisted your arm for you to ask for a regrade. You could have said, "Sure I'll take the x for the non-FB but I would like half if you are able to regrade at a FB." You did neither.
So like a bad penny this thread keeps popping up. I have to say I can't imagine why ANYONE would get this riled up over a dime for goodness sake. It's not like it's a bullion coin.
I think I was very up-front in my first post about my interactions with Paul. Though it reflects badly on me, I will admit that if I thought Paul was wrong in his actions, it is quite likely that I would not have posted those thoughts because I like Paul. Simply put, however, I do not think Paul is wrong; I think you are. And, what inspired me to post rather than pm my support to Paul was the incredibly negative subject line for your thread. I thought and still think that it's tacky (and wrong).
That said, I agree 110% with your comment "As for those who stated that you would never do any dealings with me................I'll try to make it without you". I think both of us will be a lot happier with that policy so I hope we both can adhere to it. Indeed, I bet both you and Paul agree that you both would be much happier if you had adopted this policy before the transaction with Paul started!
Did stooge KNOW when he sent the $50.00 what he had? YES, lets accept that fact.
was it wrong? proabably wrong to brag about it once it was returned, seems like the longer I am around this hobby the more I realize it is buyer or seller beware, and don't confuse a coin collector acquaintance with being a friend, sounds cynical but it is what it is.
Sorry Folks I lied! After a week of dormancy, this thread, along with me have reappeared. Though nothing has really changed
Jon, nothing said is going to change the way you feel, it will probably lessen with time, but you'll probably always feel you were 'RIPPED'.
But your defense of Paul knowing it was FB is getting old. Yes, Paul knew it was full band, but you knew he thought it was full band. BUT did you know PCGS knew it was Full Band? Could Paul guarantee PCGS would see it as Full Band? You may say yes, but the reality is that there are no guarantees.
Another of your defenses, maybe the strongest, is that you did not even see the coin. What stopped you? An unsolicited check? Again I will say that should have been a red flag. Ask for the coin back & return the check. Instead you cashed the check. Let me ask you Jon, if you thought you still owned, or partially owned the coin once you deposited the check? Ultimately you had the power to ask for the coin, or cash the check.
Lastly I have a difficult time believing your "I would NEVER do that". Just so I get it right, if you buy slabbed coins that upgrade, you send the sellers more money? Or if you go to a show & cherry-pick some dimes you thinkare FB, even if not designated that way, you'll pay the seller FB money for non-FB coins? Emotionally I see were you're coming from, but rationally I don't. This 'game' just doesn't work that way. Grading is subjectionable, it is only one person's (or company's) opinion, opt to change day to day.
20/20 hindsight is perfect, and I'm sure you &/or Paul would have done things differently, but what is done is done. Paul sent the coins in, didn't get the desired results, sent you money for a coin he thought had potential to upgrade (PQ? ) and you took it.
Did he send you FB money? No, the coin wasn't FB. I wouldn't pay FB money for a coin not designated as such. Did he pay you PQ money, yes, knowing the potential for upgraded was there. Nothing I have read has shown me you didn't also know there was potential for an upgrade.
Of course it's buyer beware. Did you just crawl from under a rock?
I have good relationships with the dealers I work with but I also know that this is what they do for a LIVING. They HAVE to make a profit so apart from giving me a straight deal I don't expect any more nor should I. I have had deals where I knew I paid too much and many deals where I got a great deal but each time I had a choice and I made it. Things balance out so it's better to keep these issues to yourself in the short run as relationships are worth more than these stupid little coins. I'm sorry if this comes to a shock to you.
What Stooge did was fine in my view but maybe questionable in others, okay let's agree on that and get over it. But this is not the forum for this kind of mud slinging and frankly I cannot understand why some Mod has not locked this thread and do us all a favor.
Let sleeping dogs lay for goodness sake. This is a lot of crying over a friggin worthless dime, dimeman. The thing that amazes me is you are too stupid too take advantage of the half dozen chances you've had to ANY high road but you continue to show yourself as a jerk and not someone any one would want to do business with. You reap what you sow dimejerk.
griv if this thread bothers you so much why read it? whew you sound like maybe some rest and relaxation might be in order. Most are just commenting but you seem to want to go into attack mode.
It seems that you like some of the others don't get the picture.
And no if you sent me a dime and I looked at it and said it was Fb or MS whatever and it came back lower I would not pay you little money for it knowing that when I resubmit it will get the grade it should have gotten the first time. I WOULD PAY YOU WHAT IT IS WORTH!!!!!!
I get the picture Jon. You expect folks to pay you what they think it's worth, even if the TPG says differently. That's what you would do. You would pay $400 for a coin, in it's present slab was $35? WOW, if true you're a bigger man than me.
But you didn't answer my question, Let me ask you Jon, if you thought you still owned, or partially owned the coin once you deposited the check?. I will add to this, Why did you cash the check?
I think I know your answer, it's not about the ownership, it's about money. Paul not paying $400-$450 for a coin worth $35 in the current holder, because he knew (& PCGS apparently didn't the first time) it was FB.
I bought a pop 34 First Strike 2001 Silver Eagle for $600 thinking I got a great deal, it went for $1,200 previously, but 3 days later (before they showed up so figure the seller could have known) Goldngift's submission came back and the pop jumped by around 300! Now the coin trades for maybe $50. Tell me who I should whine to? The person that sold me the coin? Goldngift for submitting the coins? My mother for somehow raising me like she did? If anyone, how about ME?
GET A GRIP. This thread is a soap opera and any "2 minute" reader comments are not welcome. So I do what I please AL, read the whole thread next time.
"Several months ago I sent a complete set of silver Roosies still in the Whitman pages with slides that I put them in 20 to 25 years ago to Paul (Stooge). I went through a dealers stock and pulled the best he had for each date and mintmark."
Dimeman - If you had scored a $450 coin the first time through, were you intending on cutting in the dealer you "cherry-picked" 25 years ago? If not, why not?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"Several months ago I sent a complete set of silver Roosies still in the Whitman pages with slides that I put them in 20 to 25 years ago to Paul (Stooge). I went through a dealers stock and pulled the best he had for each date and mintmark."
Dimeman - If you had scored a $450 coin the first time through, were you intending on cutting in the dealer you "cherry-picked" 25 years ago? If not, why not?
Wondercoin >>
Mitch,
The question is "how much has Dimeman already sent the dealer he 'cherry-picked' 25 years ago?" Seems "turn around" would be fair play, Dimeman wants Stooge to pay for an upgrade he got after he (Stooge) bought a coin, I assume Dimeman has aready sent a check to the dealer he bought the coin from (NOT).
I have an ethical question for you. I bought a 1964-D DDO FS-101 (FS - 013.4) Kennedy in a SEGS MS65 holder from a respected follow board member. I recieved my grades last Thursday, and it crossed to a PCGS MS65 holder. A PCGS MS65 holder is worth more then a SEGS MS65 holder, how much am I required to send to the board member that I bought the coin from? Bare in mind, that I bought the coin with the intention of submitting it to PCGS and it was an out right sale with no strings attached.
Just wondering, Tim
Edited to add: PS it is now sitting in my son's "Showcase" set linked below. Right now as a pop 1/0 (even though I know there is a PCGS MS67 out there that just hasn't been attribuated yet).
I would have to say that the scenario you posted, although Mitch can certainly answer, is different than what is presented here.
And therein lies the only questionable action of Paul's, IMO.
By not sending the coin back to Jon & instead sending a check, IMO, is questionable.
I would rather this thread questioned the ethics of sending money for a coin unsolicited, instead of this topic. But Jon, you didn't do that. Once the check is cashed all bets are off.
Dimeman - If you had scored a $450 coin the first time through, were you intending on cutting in the dealer you "cherry-picked" 25 years ago? If not, why not?
Wondercoin
Mitch, Is this the same senario as this thread............NO!!!
You guys are starting to bore me now with your stupid little senarios that have nothing to do with this thread!
This IS my LAST post on this period.
Are ya happy griv? I hope so because I sure do worry about how ya feel about me.
And zcoin or whoever you are. I sure hope I can make it without your help......like who do you think you are!
Comments
Wondercoin
P.S. Griv - I sent you an email back from my Blackberry this afternoon while watching the Red Sox slaughter our Angels. If you did not get that email, let me know and I can send it again.
Dimeman, for what it's worth, I am sorry for my attacks even though.&^#*^$!!! With that said, I and I would like to start over not to mention that I'm sure you will make peace with Paul as well.
When did this forum get this harse? Is it tied to the violence in Iraq? Is Iran to blame for dimeman's coments? (go with me dimeman on this even though, hmmm? I can't really say why.)Do we even know it was dimeman who started this? The world seems to be revolving at thousands of miles an hour and my kids are telling me I need to get the heck off "the" computer. Can someone define what has gone on in the last few years? Oops! I meant coin wise! I think I know why my kids are crazy, but why are the bullion coins crazy?
I seem once again to be Griv'd. And with a full bladder!!! CURSES!!!
I never once attacked anyone personally, but did vent back at Griv on some of his attacks. For that I apologize. I think grivs dislike of me goes back to my attacks on moderns, which I also apologize for. I still don't like them but I have nothing against those who do.
Lastly, Paul, I am very confused on your previous thread where you stated if I hadn't gone public you would have done this and that. Well I went to you privitely several times and you said the deal was done and that was that. That is when I posted the thread. You said in your thread that you would have sent the coin to me or paid the difference. Well why won't you do that?
And for those who think this is a matter of selling a coin to someone and then they get an upgrade on it............it's not!
If I would have had the 57-P in a PCGS66 holder and sold it to Paul and he upgrades it fine! BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED! I sent him coins(raw) and the 57-P was described by him as 66FB which is a $450 coin. It comes back 66 no bands which is a $35 coin. He knows it is a FB coin and shoots me 50 bucks knowing it will FB. HE called it a FB coin and it was a FB coin. And he gives me no band money + a little for it. The reason I sent him the coins in the first place is because I know how he likes Roosies, so I thought he would enjoy looking at them and maybe buy some of them if they graded good enough.
Paul, if you really think these two senarioes(SP) are the same and you have done nothing wrong, OK I must be losing my mind because they are completely different to me.
You do whatever you think is right.
I just know that I have never done anything like this and NEVER will.
Another of the world's problems somewhat peacefully solved. If only they'd let us solve the Middle East. Well, maybe that might be a little tougher than full steps, but just barely.
Griiiiiiiiivvv
Yes I received both of your PM's.
The funny thing is, it isn't worth what it was going for...the pops have almost doubled since this post started.
When I sent the coin in for FB it became a 19/3, and now its a 35/3. I don't believe it to be a $400 coin anymore, but that is JMHO!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore?
Jon
<< <i>The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore? >>
The pop report may still show 19/3...but the info for that coin in the registry sets now shows 35/3...the pop report will be updated over the weekend. With the pop for the coin in question increasing by 16, and all at once no less, look for the price to drop like a rock.
COMPLETE KENNEDY VARIETY SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOFS
1964 MINT SET
Let me get the facts straight from the most relevant point -
Dimeman accepted $50 for the coin and said nothing. Dimeman could have said, "I don't want the fiddy, send the coin back." or he could have said, "Here's 30 more let's try one more time if you really think it is a FB coin." He did neither.
Stooge resubmitted the coin on a chance that it would get FB (failed once already) on his own "dime" so to speak assuming all the risk of getting a non-FB back.
Stooge does in fact get an FB designation on the coin.
Dimeman wants a share of the upgraded value (it is of course the same coin underneath the plastic) even though he had no stake in the gamble.
What a whiner ... Dimeman must be new to the submission game.
What if Stooge tried three more times and didn't get FB and then told Dimeman, "Well I tried your coin three more times and lost, so I think you owe me at least half of the submission fees."
Dimeman ... quit whining and submit your own coins from now own.
On a "chance?" Note that as a seasoned Roosy collector he basically said he knew and was positive he'd get the FB designation.
That's a far cry from a non-specialist "hoping" for an upgrade. In Dimeman's defense, he had never even seen the back of the coin.
Dimeman wants a share of the upgraded value (it is of course the same coin underneath the plastic) even though he had no stake in the gamble.
No stake in the gamble? He put up $200 in grading fees for that set and that's money out the window. If anything, he put up the majority of the money in the "gamble."
What if Stooge tried three more times and didn't get FB and then told Dimeman, "Well I tried your coin three more times and lost, so I think you owe me at least half of the submission fees."
We aren't talking 3 more times. The issue only involves the first and second submission....not another 3. If the coin had come back non-FB on the 2nd try, that's when the bets are all off. It would have been graded twice - consistent on both. Fair market grade determined and verified...end of story. But no doubt there are examples where extremely expensive coins have been sold off by collectors only to be tried many times and then upgraded. No doubt the selling collector feels a bit "cheated" in the end about the one that got away. But if someone met his selling price, all is fair. What isn't all fair is when a counter-offer is made on the coin after being "talked down" by the dealer. Those kinds of upgrades are
tainted imo. That's not the way to win repeat business!
roadrunner
<< <i>Paul,
The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore?
Jon >>
So Dimeman, you can't keep your trap shut can you? I already said I would sue you for deflammation of character if you had done to me what you did to Stooge. Now you're back CRYING over your $150. Anyone that thinks Dimeman has a case is sadly mistaken. Dimeman is a whinning baby and should drop this issue and apologize but instead is still boo hooing over $150. PM me Dimebaby with your address as I'll gladly send you the $150 just to shut you up.
Geez, I thought this train wreck had come to and end.
The "wiggle" (a cool name for a new dance
<< <i>
<< <i>Paul,
The coin is still listed as 19/3. Are you not going to honor the $150 offer anymore?
Jon >>
So Dimeman, you can't keep your trap shut can you? I already said I would sue you for deflammation of character if you had done to me what you did to Stooge. Now you're back CRYING over your $150. Anyone that thinks Dimeman has a case is sadly mistaken. Dimeman is a whinning baby and should drop this issue and apologize but instead is still boo hooing over $150. PM me Dimebaby with your address as I'll gladly send you the $150 just to shut you up.
Geez, I thought this train wreck had come to and end.
You need to lighten up dude.
So I do NOT feel the need to lighten up as long as this disgraceful thread continues to be pushed by Dimeman after Stooge clearly offered Dimeman a generous resolution. And I would advise you to read the entire thread before you get your undees in a bundle over my post. Thanks.
I wanted to keep this between Paul and myself. It was his idea to go public. Boy, your nice attitude didn't list long!
I can't begin to tell ya of all the PM's I've had...unreal.
Jon, You said that you are having a real hard time trying to figure out what I have been trying to say, but no one else has had this problem. I think that you have selective reading, and only try to decipher what you want to read.
Yes, I said you could post whatever you wanted on this thread, but did you ever once think that "I may have been RIPPED off by Stooge" wasn't hurtful? It was very hurtful and irregardless of who reads this, they will forever think that I'm a "Slimeball" and "Unethical" no matter what I do and say. I also have taken into account that since they know my eBay handle as MS69FB, that after reading this thread that they may stay clear of my auctions. I offered to you $150 of which several well known and well respected posters on this Forum have stated to you that this WAS a very fair and reasonable offer. You initially turned it down, only to get Flamed on this thread and in some of my PM's, but now have reconsidered the offer and stated that you would gladly accept it.
As far as I'm concerned the offer expired. Sorry.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Griv
I wanted to keep this between Paul and myself. It was his idea to go public. Boy, your nice attitude didn't list long!
This is a lie! Re-read the posts...you asked me if it was OK for you to post this on the Forum, and I said "You can post whatever you like"
Convience huh?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Come on Paul. You never once offered any kind of deal between us on the PM's like you stated you would have if I had ask. I did ask and got nothing from you but "it's a done deal" and "go ahead and post what you like".
And I did not turn down your offer of $150 and flame you! Why can't you do the right here. All we are doing here is getting griv upset and we sure don't want that!
Jon
I do not see a DEADLINE to accept this offer? Dimeman accepted it after some consideration and prior to any deadline EXPIRING? Why wouldn't Dimeman be owed $150 at this point?
Wondercoin
<< <i>if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing >>
There were two subsequent posts by Jon after that time that might be construed as having a complaint in them while neither contained an acceptance of the offer. In my opinion, the offer is null and void if Paul says so at this point.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If anything, this has truly become the "Days of Our Lives" thread on PCGS.
<< <i>I don't believe the lack of a stated deadline in the post means that it is an infinitely available option. If I offer you a deal on a coin at a show and you walk away then that deal might not be on the table ten minutes later. Additionally, Paul's offer contained the following disclaimer-
<< <i>if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing >>
There were two subsequent posts by Jon after that time that might be construed as having a complaint in them while neither contained an acceptance of the offer. In my opinion, the offer is null and void if Paul says so at this point. >>
This was/is the main reason I've retracted my offer. I originally offered the $150, and you tried again to get $400. Nothing I say or do would truly make you happy.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
In all fairness, it was just pointed out to me that the above sounds like a counteroffer, thus voiding the original offer and releasing the offeror from his obligation. Where is the "Contracts 101" professor when you need one!!
Wondercoin
Quite frankly, this thread has not hurt my opinion of you at all. I'd bid in any of your auctions in a minute or less. However, it sure has changed my opinion of dimeman. I wouldn't engage in ANY sort of deal with him. Dimeman seems the sort of person for whom a proposed deal--be it submitting a coin or paying $150--never expires as long as the deal benefits him.
Taclough - this deal is in no way like your deal with the 2 commens that were already graded, which you sold as those grades. Doesn't anyone see the difference.
Paul - I did nothing to make you take back the $150 deal!
My biggest mistake here was trusting someone to do what I would have done. I will NEVER make that mistake again!!!!!
Paul I never intended this to get into shouting match with other people jumping in and attacking either of us.
As for those who stated that you would never do any dealings with me................I'll try to make it without you!
<< <i>Paul:
Quite frankly, this thread has not hurt my opinion of you at all. I'd bid in any of your auctions in a minute or less. However, it sure has changed my opinion of dimeman. I wouldn't engage in ANY sort of deal with him. Dimeman seems the sort of person for whom a proposed deal--be it submitting a coin or paying $150--never expires as long as the deal benefits him. >>
Thanks Mark...you're pretty swell too!
Later, Paul.
<< <i> Taclough - this deal is in no way like your deal with the 2 commens that were already graded, which you sold as those grades. Doesn't anyone see the difference. >>
Dimeman,
This is different how? The 1957-P dime was already graded when you sold it. Once you sell or trade a coin you no longer have any interest in that coin unless conditions are spelled out at the time of the sale / trade. What is so hard about understanding this? Where is the difference from the deal with the two commemoratives that I made and stated in an earlier post?
JMHO,
Tim
You know Mark, I am sick and tired of you and the others out there kissing up to Paul and saying how bad I am to deal with!
In the first place it wasn't a "DEAL". I sent Paul some dimes to look at and see if there were any worth sending in. He said the 57-P was a 66FB. And here is the KEY. He knew it was a FB coin. When it came back no bands he KNEW it WAS FB and knew he was sending it back in. He NEVER mentioned to me sending it back in. He shot me a check for no band money knowing he was getting a FB coin.
ANYBODY NOT SEEING THIS AS A SCREW JOB JUST DOESN'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since Paul could not have known for sure what PCGS might have done later and since you failed to secure a "bonus" for yourself in the possible event of a future upgrade - you have a very hollow argument the way I see it - perhaps none at all.
Wondercoin
The difference is you had the coins in hand and saw them and what they were graded. My coins were in a whitman folder and I hadn't seem them in 25-30 years.
IF I had sent the coin in and got the 66 no band grade AND then sent it to Paul or anyone else AND they send it in and get the FB that would be like your deal and I would not have ANY complaint!!!
My complaint is Paul KNEW it was FB and couldn't wait to buy it for no band money! Then he says in a post here that if I would have got with him he would have sent me the coin or paid $400 for it. Well he WOULD NOT deal with me privitely and here we are!
<< <i>You know Mark, I am sick and tired of you and the others out there kissing up to Paul and saying how bad I am to deal with!
In the first place it wasn't a "DEAL". I sent Paul some dimes to look at and see if there were any worth sending in. He said the 57-P was a 66FB. And here is the KEY. He knew it was a FB coin. When it came back no bands he KNEW it WAS FB and knew he was sending it back in. He NEVER mentioned to me sending it back in. He shot me a check for no band money knowing he was getting a FB coin.
ANYBODY NOT SEEING THIS AS A SCREW JOB JUST DOESN'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Dimeman,
I am not "kissing up" to Paul, heck I don't even know him. YOU are the one who started this thread and even in your title you ask "What do you think?". If you don't like the answers then you shouldn't have asked the question!!!!!!!
Bottom line, even you stated that Paul told you the coin in question was a MS66 FB before it was even sent in to PCGS, and you cashed the check.
1. Change your login name
2. Look at your coins before you send them, lazy
Next, I'm not kissing up as I don't know Stooge either and if Stooge could have done a better job keeping you from being ignorant then sure, I'd say so but you blew it when you took this public. The one thing you can be sure of is that Stooge will NEVER give you a deal in the future and you have really damaged your reputation with everyone here. I still love you though.
If he told you it was a FB and it graded for less and then you sold it for non-FB then you are the one who doubted Stooge. You could have said, "Stooge, I post ALL the time how slabbed coins are crap and I believe in you, please submit it again." But no, you took the offered price and now you think Stooge should have twisted your arm for you to ask for a regrade. You could have said, "Sure I'll take the x for the non-FB but I would like half if you are able to regrade at a FB." You did neither.
So like a bad penny this thread keeps popping up. I have to say I can't imagine why ANYONE would get this riled up over a dime for goodness sake. It's not like it's a bullion coin.
I think I was very up-front in my first post about my interactions with Paul. Though it reflects badly on me, I will admit that if I thought Paul was wrong in his actions, it is quite likely that I would not have posted those thoughts because I like Paul. Simply put, however, I do not think Paul is wrong; I think you are. And, what inspired me to post rather than pm my support to Paul was the incredibly negative subject line for your thread. I thought and still think that it's tacky (and wrong).
That said, I agree 110% with your comment "As for those who stated that you would never do any dealings with me................I'll try to make it without you". I think both of us will be a lot happier with that policy so I hope we both can adhere to it.
Did stooge KNOW when he sent the $50.00 what he had? YES, lets accept that fact.
was it wrong? proabably wrong to brag about it once it was returned, seems like the longer I am around this hobby the more I realize it is buyer or seller beware, and don't confuse a coin collector acquaintance with being a friend, sounds cynical but it is what it is.
Ya learn then next time ya pay closer attention.
JMO
AL
After a week of dormancy, this thread, along with me have reappeared.
Though nothing has really changed
Jon, nothing said is going to change the way you feel, it will probably lessen with time, but you'll probably always feel you were 'RIPPED'.
But your defense of Paul knowing it was FB is getting old.
Yes, Paul knew it was full band, but you knew he thought it was full band.
BUT did you know PCGS knew it was Full Band?
Could Paul guarantee PCGS would see it as Full Band?
You may say yes, but the reality is that there are no guarantees.
Another of your defenses, maybe the strongest, is that you did not even see the coin.
What stopped you? An unsolicited check?
Again I will say that should have been a red flag. Ask for the coin back & return the check.
Instead you cashed the check.
Let me ask you Jon, if you thought you still owned, or partially owned the coin once you deposited the check?
Ultimately you had the power to ask for the coin, or cash the check.
Lastly I have a difficult time believing your "I would NEVER do that".
Just so I get it right, if you buy slabbed coins that upgrade, you send the sellers more money?
Or if you go to a show & cherry-pick some dimes you thinkare FB, even if not designated that way, you'll pay the seller FB money for non-FB coins?
Emotionally I see were you're coming from, but rationally I don't. This 'game' just doesn't work that way.
Grading is subjectionable, it is only one person's (or company's) opinion, opt to change day to day.
20/20 hindsight is perfect, and I'm sure you &/or Paul would have done things differently, but what is done is done.
Paul sent the coins in, didn't get the desired results, sent you money for a coin he thought had potential to upgrade (PQ?
Did he send you FB money? No, the coin wasn't FB. I wouldn't pay FB money for a coin not designated as such.
Did he pay you PQ money, yes, knowing the potential for upgraded was there.
Nothing I have read has shown me you didn't also know there was potential for an upgrade.
JMO
I have good relationships with the dealers I work with but I also know that this is what they do for a LIVING. They HAVE to make a profit so apart from giving me a straight deal I don't expect any more nor should I. I have had deals where I knew I paid too much and many deals where I got a great deal but each time I had a choice and I made it. Things balance out so it's better to keep these issues to yourself in the short run as relationships are worth more than these stupid little coins. I'm sorry if this comes to a shock to you.
What Stooge did was fine in my view but maybe questionable in others, okay let's agree on that and get over it. But this is not the forum for this kind of mud slinging and frankly I cannot understand why some Mod has not locked this thread and do us all a favor.
Let sleeping dogs lay for goodness sake. This is a lot of crying over a friggin worthless dime, dimeman. The thing that amazes me is you are too stupid too take advantage of the half dozen chances you've had to ANY high road but you continue to show yourself as a jerk and not someone any one would want to do business with. You reap what you sow dimejerk.
END THE MADNESS!
AL
It seems that you like some of the others don't get the picture.
And no if you sent me a dime and I looked at it and said it was Fb or MS whatever and it came back lower I would not pay you little money for it knowing that when I resubmit it will get the grade it should have gotten the first time. I WOULD PAY YOU WHAT IT IS WORTH!!!!!!
You expect folks to pay you what they think it's worth, even if the TPG says differently. That's what you would do.
You would pay $400 for a coin, in it's present slab was $35? WOW, if true you're a bigger man than me.
But you didn't answer my question, Let me ask you Jon, if you thought you still owned, or partially owned the coin once you deposited the check?.
I will add to this, Why did you cash the check?
I think I know your answer, it's not about the ownership, it's about money. Paul not paying $400-$450 for a coin worth $35 in the current holder, because he knew (& PCGS apparently didn't the first time) it was FB.
GET A GRIP. This thread is a soap opera and any "2 minute" reader comments are not welcome. So I do what I please AL, read the whole thread next time.
Dimeman - If you had scored a $450 coin the first time through, were you intending on cutting in the dealer you "cherry-picked" 25 years ago? If not, why not?
Wondercoin
<< <i>"Several months ago I sent a complete set of silver Roosies still in the Whitman pages with slides that I put them in 20 to 25 years ago to Paul (Stooge). I went through a dealers stock and pulled the best he had for each date and mintmark."
Dimeman - If you had scored a $450 coin the first time through, were you intending on cutting in the dealer you "cherry-picked" 25 years ago? If not, why not?
Wondercoin >>
Mitch,
The question is "how much has Dimeman already sent the dealer he 'cherry-picked' 25 years ago?"
JMHO,
Tim
Edited to add: This thread might make 200!
I have an ethical question for you. I bought a 1964-D DDO FS-101 (FS - 013.4) Kennedy in a SEGS MS65 holder from a respected follow board member. I recieved my grades last Thursday, and it crossed to a PCGS MS65 holder. A PCGS MS65 holder is worth more then a SEGS MS65 holder, how much am I required to send to the board member that I bought the coin from? Bare in mind, that I bought the coin with the intention of submitting it to PCGS and it was an out right sale with no strings attached.
Just wondering,
Tim
Edited to add: PS it is now sitting in my son's "Showcase" set linked below. Right now as a pop 1/0 (even though I know there is a PCGS MS67 out there that just hasn't been attribuated yet).
I would have to say that the scenario you posted, although Mitch can certainly answer, is different than what is presented here.
And therein lies the only questionable action of Paul's, IMO.
By not sending the coin back to Jon & instead sending a check, IMO, is questionable.
I would rather this thread questioned the ethics of sending money for a coin unsolicited, instead of this topic.
But Jon, you didn't do that.
Once the check is cashed all bets are off.
Again, JMO.
Wondercoin
Mitch, Is this the same senario as this thread............NO!!!
You guys are starting to bore me now with your stupid little senarios that have nothing to do with this thread!
This IS my LAST post on this period.
Are ya happy griv? I hope so because I sure do worry about how ya feel about me.
And zcoin or whoever you are. I sure hope I can make it without your help......like who do you think you are!
Some people seem to take this thread as much, or more, personally as the 2 that are in the middle of it.
Sheesh!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment