I think I have been RIPPED off by Stooge...what do you think?
DIMEMAN
Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
Several months ago I sent a complete set of silver Roosies still in the Whitman pages with slides that I put them in 20 to 25 years ago to Paul (Stooge). I went through a dealers stock and pulled the best he had for each date and mintmark. I don't usually send coins out like that but for some reason I trusted Paul. He went thru the set and sent me what he thought each coin graded. Most were not high enough grade to spend the money on, but we picked 10 of the best and sent them in. This cost me $200. The best coin in the bunch was the 1957-P, which he graded at least 66 and 100% FB. I decided to do the deal figuring that the 57-P would pay for the whole thing and more since it list for $450. Well, the whole bunch came back lower than Paul graded them. The 57-P got 66 but no bands.
Here is where I feel I got hosed. Paul knew I wanted to recoup some of the wasted money so without my saying OK he sent me 50 bucks for the 57-P knowing I needed the money. He said he wanted the coin since he needed that date and that since he paid $50 for a $35 coin I would be happy. Well I know Paul doesn't collect non FB Roosies and he planned all along to resubmit it, which he did and guess what it came back FB. I KNOW he knew that it would all along and couldn't wait to shoot me a check for $50 knowing that he was getting a $450 coin, which was mine and I was counting on that one coin making it.
I PMed him as soon as I saw the thread about "HIS" great new finds because I knew the 57-P was my coin. His reply was "tuff luck" the coin "is mine and I can do with it what I want" Well the coin is his BUT I wouldn't do that to anyone!
Am I wrong or did I get hosed!!
Here is where I feel I got hosed. Paul knew I wanted to recoup some of the wasted money so without my saying OK he sent me 50 bucks for the 57-P knowing I needed the money. He said he wanted the coin since he needed that date and that since he paid $50 for a $35 coin I would be happy. Well I know Paul doesn't collect non FB Roosies and he planned all along to resubmit it, which he did and guess what it came back FB. I KNOW he knew that it would all along and couldn't wait to shoot me a check for $50 knowing that he was getting a $450 coin, which was mine and I was counting on that one coin making it.
I PMed him as soon as I saw the thread about "HIS" great new finds because I knew the 57-P was my coin. His reply was "tuff luck" the coin "is mine and I can do with it what I want" Well the coin is his BUT I wouldn't do that to anyone!
Am I wrong or did I get hosed!!
0
Comments
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
like I said, I'll be reading and post my response(s) later.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I told you in the last PM that I was going to post a thread and see what the other forum members thought and you said fine go ahead.
<< <i>Paul,
I told you in the last PM that I was going to post a thread and see what the other forum members thought and you said fine go ahead. >>
Yes, I said "Feel free to say what ever you would like to say".
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Anyway, I do think Stooge should offer some compensation, maybe give you half of the increase in value (or split the difference if it's sold). It seems to me his original offer was to help you get fair money for your coins, and he should stand by that.
<< <i>Am I wrong or did I get hosed!! >>
You got hosed! But not by Paul
You could have said no deal and returned the check then send the coin in yourself for regrade or Presidential Review. You saw the coin before you sent them to Paul, you should have known what it was, your beef is with PCGS for not designating it FB the first time around.
That said- I did have a similar situation happen to me. A collector asked me to sell off a coin designated as a CAMEO after it failed to upgrade to DCAM. My cut was going to be around $1,500 for selling the coin. The coin was also offered to me for a straight purchase and I was even invited to deduct out the commish I would have earned on a straight sale. I was convinced the coin was DCAM so I elected to continue trying to upgrade the coin for the collector rather than pocket it. The coin did upgrade shortly thereafter and it quickly sold for an additional $25,000 premium to a dealer as a result of the upgrade. The added value of the coin from the upgrade would have added a few thousand additional dollars on to my commish anyway, but, after I paid the collector the funds from the sale of the upgraded coin, the collector made sure I received about $10,000 for my effort. I was happy and the collector was certainly happy to receive more than double what he expected for the coin. I received many future consignments from this collector and upgraded many additional coins for him.
Wondercoin
I would like to add that my opinion is based on the fact that all transactions between Paul and Jon were strictly business between collectors. If a friendship existed before the transaction took place, then my strickly business opinion could be weakened. Forum members that I communicate with are considered my friends. I would extend to them, all due respect, fair financial considerations, and complete honesty. If this scenario applies here, then Paul and Jon will, most likely, resolve this issue.
RegistryNut
<< <i>The best coin in the bunch was the 1957-P, which he graded at least 66 and 100% FB. I decided to do the deal figuring that the 57-P would pay for the whole thing and more since it list for $450. Well, the whole bunch came back lower than Paul graded them. The 57-P got 66 but no bands. >>
Grading at aTPG is a "Crap Shoot" at best. Paul thought the coin was 66FB but to say "FOR SURE" it was 66FB was a somewhat mis-leading statement. My other question is what did the other coins grade and what opinion grades did he give?
<< <i>I KNOW he knew that it would all along and couldn't wait to shoot me a check for $50 knowing that he was getting a $450 coin, which was mine and I was counting on that one coin making it. >>
Again, I do not think he knew that the coin would upgrade. He had a idea and decided to take the chance. When it did upgrade maybe a little more compensation was in order but not required. Is the coin really worth $450? From what I have seen the PCGS price guide is way off on this series untill you get to the very top graded examples. My guess the value is somewhere between $250 to $300. Another question. How many times was it resubmitted?
<< <i>His reply was "tuff luck" >>
In this instance this reply was not needed at all.
<< <i>BUT I wouldn't do that to anyone! >>
I would not either but we are in the minority I believe.
It is really too bad that you two guys have had this problem. Mistakes through the whole deal seem to have been made. Both of you know how to grade the series, I think, and in the long run maybe the dimes should have been sent for a look see only and then returned with a opinion.
This is a Fickle Little Series and very small imperfections drop a coin from 66 possibly all the way down to 64. About a year ago I purchased a complete set from PQ Peace, Larry, When I first opened the package I thought I had found a gold mine. Upon a closer second look only about ten coins were what I would call Gem. The others were mostly nice but still only 3 to 5 buck coins because they were not worth grading. Anyway the ten coins did make up my purchase price and if they would have came back much higher than I thought they would Larry would have received more money from me and I told him this when the deal was made. I would have given him some compensation but certainly not whole compensation. After all he did sell me the coins for a "Certain Agreed Upon Price" and in all reality if I wanted to be a complete "Jerk Off" no compensation had to be offered.
Ken
I agree with Wondercoin, TAClough, and RegistryNut. In a business sense, when you accepted the $50 from Jon you released all rights to that coin...Jon has/had the right to submit for regrade, sell, or melt the coin...he got lucky and it came back FB. You feel like you got hosed but like others have stated, your real beef should be with yourself and PCGS...not Jon. You should be grateful that Jon, as a friend, paid you more than what the coin was worth before the regrade. Paul, if I were in your shoes I would really be angry with myself for not submitting for Presidential Review or a regrade...knowing that Jon told you it would grade with FB. If you're alleging trickery or nefarious intent on Jon's part then you have to prove it...from your statement that doesn't appear to be the case. If you're still steamed about it and Jon wants to remain your friend then he might be willing to share some of the proceeds with you...but that's up to him. One could argue that Jon has a moral obligation to return some of the proceeds--but from what's been published, I don't see that Jon did anything immoral or unethical. You had an opportunity to do something about it and declined...he decided to submit for regrade and got lucky...leave it at that...and get on with being friends...life is too short...and good friends are hard to find. I applaud Jon for biting his tongue on this...he could have responded with some "not so nice" replies. If you fellas want to remain friends, I would just suck it up as a business decision and move on.
I know that by cashing the $50 check I gave up the rights to the coin. My complaint is that I KNOW Paul knew that the coin would FB. He could have said hey, lets resubmit it and see what happens. But instead he saw the chance to get the $450 coin for $50.
I didn't see the coin. I just sent him the whole set. I guess I trusted him since I thought I knew him and I should not have done that.
Looks like the rule here is "do unto others before they do unto you" NOT "do unto other as you would have them do unto you".
I WOULD NEVER DO ANYBODY LIKE THIS.
But I will do what most said and move on and not trust anyone any more. I've lost what little faith I had in fellow collectors and that is a shame.
Thanks again, Jon.
In this case, it appears that Paul leveraged his superior knowledge of PCGS' system without fully disclosing the true (or at least his true estimation of) probabilities of the possible outcomes that could have been achieved thru resubmittal.
Yes, you got screwed by stooge.
You were taken advantage of. He knew or should have know that the chance of getting a result that was superior to the result that you believed was possible was the accurate assessment.
At the very least he should have URGED you to resubmit or if he intended on resubmitting it himself, make his deal with you contingent on the next PCGS result.
Assuming you want to keep the coin and not flip it, he should give you your coin back and you should give him all his money back including what he paid to get the coin into the right holder PLUS a to be negotiated premium.
Assuming you want to flip it, he should just give you half the profit or so.
Additionally, the way Paul replied in the first few replies to this thread (sorta wanting to wait to see which way the wind was about to blow) indicates a guilty state of mind (or at least a disingenuous interest in a fair resolution) in my opinion.
If I can read between the lines, you feel that because Paul knew you needed the money he could send you $50 and you would accept it, right?
One, how did Paul know you needed the money?
Two, if you knew Paul thought it was a FB, chances are pretty good that he would resubmit.
I guess you feel like Paul should have told you, "Man, you got hosed with the '57 not going FB, why don't you resubmit?", or something like that.
Maybe a red flag should have gone off when Paul offers you nearly 150% of what the coin's worth?
On the flip side, I regard Paul as an expert in the series and as someone who members would turn to for his opinion.
If coins are sent to him for opinions on what the coins would grade & some don't meet those opinions, I think it wrong to send money to purchase unsolicited.
My opinion is that the coins should have sent back with an offer to buy.
That way Jon (or anyone else) can review the coin again & decide whether or not to sell, keep, or resubmit.
JMO & in the real world doesn't always work out that way.
PS- I persume Paul sent the coins in for grading, & if so, why not have the coins sent back to the 'owner' instead of the 'submitter'? There is a box for "Return Shipping Address".
PSS- Rereading the post you state, "Well I know Paul doesn't collect non FB Roosies and he planned all along to resubmit it,.....".
If this is true, I don't see where you have a problem. You knew Paul thought the coin was good enough to resubmit, so it must have been a pretty good bet that the coin was FB.
Bottom line (IMO), was Paul wrong in offering you $50 for the coin?
No more than you accepting the money knowing Paul would resubmit for FB.
"On the flip side, I regard Paul as an expert in the series and as someone who members would turn to for his opinion."
Just because someone was an expert, doesn't mean they don't cut corners or try to screw people unsuspectingly.
I don't know Rick, other than his rep as an expert in IHC, but I think the difference here is that Paul's assessment was spot on in regards to the coin in question.
It did not grade as expected. Happens.
When the unsolicited funds came in, Jon had the option of accepting or denying the sale.
Was this totally ethical, IMO no, as stated earlier.
But Jon knew what was going on, again IMO, the coin was going to be resubmitted.
We hear this story again & again.......I knew the coin was MS6X, but after so many tries I sold it to (BIG Name/Business), who on their first submission they got the grade I knew the coin was.
Just because someone was an expert, doesn't mean they don't cut corners or try to screw people unsuspectingly.
IMO, this wasn't unsuspectingly in that Jon had to suspect the coin would be resubmitted.
Somehow we'd hope we'd all be above that.
As far as the Stooge and Dimeman affair, Dimeman got screwed by opportunistic behavior...at least based on the story so far. What else can you say? Sure it's legal. So is confiscating people's homes by emminent domain. If the law stands behind you...it's legal. It's legal to buy 6 figure coins over the counter for 10 cents on the dollar. The law will stand behind you. Now if Dimeman were a dealer or top notch Roosy expert then it's caveat emptor. Let the smartest survive.
In 1989 I had an experience with my local dealer on a gem 1893 Barber quarter that he had purchased from a local estate in orig tissue/letter put back at time of issue. A startling deep blue, near mark free gem. I felt the coin was possibly a 66 and no less than 65+ and told him so. I sent the coin in for him and it came back NGC 65. I was sort of disappointed and so was he. I could have paid him $4000 right then and there for it and been done with it. I still felt it was a legit 66 shot coin. I told him I'd send it back another time (all at my expense) since I felt it ought to be a 66. But no guarantees. 2nd time around it goes NGC MS66. We strike a deal for $6500 (and no doubt he likely paid peanuts for the coin). I sold the coin about a month later for $7500. I could have tried to take "advantage" of the dealer and made more money. But I felt that doing it right was more important. Just understand that doing it "right" in this hobby costs money.
I still recall one national dealer right here in my home state that paid $50,000 for a $500,000+ estate collection back in the 1980's. That was far from ethical behavior but certainly legal. Though if the seller had ever found out legal proceedings might have been initiated.
I guess putting bread on the table (along with a few toys too) justifies the means. Had any of us been in that same situation how many would have turned significant money back to the seller?
Unfortunately for me, doing it right over the past 20 years has cost me far more money than it has ever made me. Ironically that the profits still seem to beat feet to the doors of those who are less than fully honest. The ones doing it with full and the utmost integrity probably struggle some to make the business work for them. That's something that has always puzzled me about our hobby. I guess that's because the huckster or carney wins the prize. It's more about the glitz or sales pitch that the reality. And that's something most sellers don't figure out until it's way too late in the game, if ever.
Sorry Dimeman, legally you are out of luck. But I also would never treat a fellow hobbyist or friend badly...assuming the story as told so far is 100% correct. No dobut a reply is coming shortly. But my example applies to many in our hobby and is just the way it is. So who paid for the $200 in slab fees?
roadrunner
What are EXPERTS anyway? Is it a perception that some folks have without positive proof around here?
Ken
<< <i>Sounds like Paul had a lot more experience with (and knowledge of) the PCGS system and estimated the probability of eventually getting a FB designation from PCGS as reasonably high whereas the OP estimated it as extremely low (perhaps with some commentary or "advice" from the stooge).
In this case, it appears that Paul leveraged his superior knowledge of PCGS' system without fully disclosing the true (or at least his true estimation of) probabilities of the possible outcomes that could have been achieved thru resubmittal. >>
Sounds like RBinTex is full of it! How much more "Full Discloser" could Paul have given then when he originially gave his opinion MS66 FB? Even the OP stated he was told 100% FB. There was no "leverage" here of anything.
<< <i>Additionally, the way Paul replied in the first few replies to this thread (sorta wanting to wait to see which way the wind was about to blow) indicates a guilty state of mind (or at least a disingenuous interest in a fair resolution) in my opinion >>
Paul's reply showed more "class" then your conclusion of "indicates a guilty state of mind", where did that come from? As the saying goes, "A dog smells his own a$$hole first!"
JMHO,
Tim
Jon, you tell a good story, but sometimes its necessary to make sure that both sides are heard, and I thought that I would give this post a day and see what transpires...
Yes, Jon send me this very nice 2 page set of Roosevelt dimes from 1946-1968-D? in the old blue Whitman albums. Very nice I might add with beautiful colors.
I looked at the coins, and guess what Jon, the 1957-D was actually a 1957-P. In a MS66FB there is about a $350 difference, but the HONEST GUY THAT YOU CLAIM I'M NOT, I told you that it WAS INDEED a beautiful 1957-P and that you did not have a D. I could have lied at that point but did not. Going on...
Immeadiately, I told you "Wow, thats a nice coin...That should grade easily a MS66FB" You even state in your first post that I told you that it was a MS66FB. BEFORE Jon, BEFORE I sent that coin in with the other 9 of yours I stated to you "If that coin comes back in a FB than I would like to buy it from you, and if it does not, I still would like to buy it from you, not because I was trying to HOSE YOU or RIP YOU OFF, but because I needed the coin for my set. I, at the time, did not own a 1957. Going on...
At no time did I personally try to "cross my fingers and hope to GOD that the coin would come back a NON-FB. I did not grade the coin PROFESSIONALLY....PCGS did!!!! I was very shocked at those very lame grades!
Paul got hosed too...I cracked out a beautiful 1962 NGC Roosie in a MS67 that came back a staggering MS64FB! I also got hosed when I bought a beautiful 1982-No/P that looks better than my MS67FB and that came back a MS66 No bands. That entire submission was not graded correctly.... I also Told you that too Jon.
After I received the coins IN HAND, I told you that "I can't believe that the 1957 came back w/o FB, and that I was still interested in the coin". You were very mad, and I told you I just don't blame you...I felt embarrassed that I chose those coins.
When I sent all of your coins back to you, yes we never agreed on a $$$ amt. for the coin. This is also true. When I looked at the coin, I could see that the bottom bands really were not FB due to a small nick on the left side of the lower bands and that is probably why it did not receive the designation the first time. I also told you that.
You can buy a 1957 MS66 every day on eBay. Here are some for sale right now! Here are some completed sales on eBay As you can see Jon, $50.00 was in my mind more than fair for you and your troubles.
Than, I sent you all of your coin back...undamaged, no swapped out coins, and a check for $50.00 signifying the sale of the 1957. You PM'd me and said "I received both of your packages (The whitman albuk and the blue box with your coins) and I'm so mad I will open them later". I siad "OK, no problem".
You then mentioned the check and stated "I haven't had time to go to the bank to cash it, I will in a few days". I again said OK, no problem...
When you cashed my check, and have said nothing to me about the submission and the 1957 in over 30 days or so, I conclude that it was a fair and understanding agreement that we had that you sold me the 1957 for $50.00. Thats why I said to you that it is a done deal. What I do with the coin is my business and not yours. What if, just if I had sent the coin in to get the FB designation in lets say 2 years...2 years go by and I hear nothing from you Jon about this coin. Is it still yours of mine?
When Nick sells me a coin and I send him a check and he sends me a coin and I do not here from him about the coin, than aren't I safe to assume that the coin is now mine? When I send a FREE coin to Dan and he were to up-grade the coin, I certainly would not say, "Dan, you owe me the difference".
I actually had no plans to re-submit the coin, until I bought a 1967 MS68 roosie and seent hat it had the potential for a FB designation. It was only then I looked through ALL of my graded dimes to see what was possible and the 1957 was there along with a 1953-S, of which I had to buy another one.
<< <i>I PMed him as soon as I saw the thread about "HIS" great new finds because I knew the 57-P was my coin. His reply was "tuff luck" the coin "is mine and I can do with it what I want" Well the coin is his BUT I wouldn't do that to anyone! >>
First of all go back to This thread and find where I stated "Hey everyone look at my new 1957 MS66FB! It was Danny Holmes that mentioned the 1957, not me. Not 1x did I mention the coin in that thread.
Ya know Jon, I see this as another one of your hateful back-stabbing attempts to belittle another Forum member, and if anyone wants to jump on this "Broken down Haunted Halloween hey ride of a thread" then go right ahead!
I actually feel sorry for you Jon...and in a PM that I sent you I also stated that "Gee, You've been upset and angry on the boards alot lately, I hope everything is alright at home with you and your family"...I still think that you are mad at something more then just me and PCGS....and thats fine, you are a grown man and you can do and say what you want.
As far as the coin...I will not be compensating Jon and if this turns out to be a Mob Lynching, I will then inturn send him the coin...RAW and out of the holder that I paid $10 with shipping to get when I sent the coin in to get graded. As far as the other coffin it was in, you will have to contatct PCGS to get that back.
Let the feeding begin!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
AL
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
No one should hang their hat on the grades when they come back from grading. I've had entire submissions undergraded a point and then go up 1-2 pts the next time in. But in fact this is the perception and market reality in most cases. Yet there will be undergraded coins (esp in moderns) in most every submission. The answer is which ones, and can you buy them? I love to have opportunities to cherry fresh returns at my local dealers. It is literally fresh meat and much better than if they were raw. After all, if "XYZ" called this a MS64 and I see it as a MS65.....that's good for me. And who can argue the assigned grade by the experts?
To those that think the experts get it right all the time, or their grades always define the values, you'd better rethink that strategy.
I look upon a returning submission as being anywhere from 10-40% raw. By that I mean some of the high and low grades in that submission are probably wrong (would grade differently on resubmits). That's just reality. Graders are only 60-90% accurate in the long haul.
When the above scenario happens with collectors selling to collectors or friends among friends, I think they should go the extra mile to ensure the transaction is fair....even months or years later assuming they are still friends. And yes, if 2 years go buy and I scored on that 1957 dime at that time I'd probably treat the seller to a dinner or mail him a check. I remembering cherrying a beautiful 1873CC dime in good+ a few years ago for CDN bid from a local shop. I also remembered a favorite seated dealer of mine who had done me many good turns over the years by sharing his knowledge. A pay back was warranted and I gave him the coin for 40%-50% under market. I know he probably made $500+ on it but you do good things for those that help you. To those that screw you over......you just walk away...for good.
It's nice that Stooge did mention an error in the 1957 vs 1957-d.
I would say most dealers would not have mentioned it. But I'd like to think that most collectors would if buying from other collectors.
It does count for something. But $50 still rings a little hollow to me, esp if I felt in my heart that I was looking at a $300-$450 coin I'd shell out the $50 as fast as I could. I couldn't care 2 cents for the TPG opinion if I honestly felt different. $25 downside and $300 upside? I like the odds.
roadrunner
<< <i>Additionally, the way Paul replied in the first few replies to this thread (sorta wanting to wait to see which way the wind was about to blow) indicates a guilty state of mind (or at least a disingenuous interest in a fair resolution) in my opinion. >>
The only reason I waited for today to post was, yes to see what the forum members had to say regarding a half truth on Dimeman's above statement, not to "Conceal" my deepest disingenenous guilty state of mind. I do not feel guilty at all, remember, I slept really good last night.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Paul at this point did you discuss with Jon that something had gone very wrong with the submission? If so was Jon not interested at all? I understand that some of the grades were quite bad.
Why not edit out some of the personal stuff toward Jon that is in your first post this morning? Is that stuff really needed?
Ken
<< <i>"I was very shocked at those very lame grades"
Paul at this point did you discuss with Jon that something had gone very wrong with the submission? If so was Jon not interested at all? I understand that some of the grades were quite bad.
Why not edit out some of the personal stuff toward Jon that is in your first post this morning? Is that stuff really needed?
Ken >>
Ken, I told Jon, that those grades were 1-2 grades lower then they should have been. He was not in the dark by any means.
As far as editing, I will not edit anything on this thread, just so everyone knows that I didn't change anything or try to retract anything.
<< <i>"Is that stuff really needed? >>
I see that trying to slander someone else's reputation on a public forum and posting "I think I have been RIPPED off by Stooge" in the thread title is alot over the edge...JMHO.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
There you have it. Another coin guy without a shred of morality or conscience.
<< <i>"As far as the coin...I will not be compensating Jon and if this turns out to be a Mob Lynching, I will then inturn send him the coin...RAW and out of the holder that I paid $10 with shipping to get when I sent the coin in to get graded. As far as the other coffin it was in, you will have to contatct PCGS to get that back."
There you have it. Another slimeball dealer without a shred of morality or conscience. >>
I never once said I was a dealer, and thats Mr. Slimeball, so get it right.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>"As far as the coin...I will not be compensating Jon and if this turns out to be a Mob Lynching, I will then inturn send him the coin...RAW and out of the holder that I paid $10 with shipping to get when I sent the coin in to get graded. As far as the other coffin it was in, you will have to contatct PCGS to get that back."
There you have it. Another slimeball dealer without a shred of morality or conscience. >>
Again, when do you really start to own a coin and stop compensating others for the coins that you've bought from them? When does this cease?
Dan bought and gave to me a pop (2/0) 2005-D MS67FB Business Strike dime from Nick for $400.00...check out the pops now, it has a pop of (9/1), now I'm gonna call Dan and ask him how much he DEMANDS back from Nick since he got "Ripped" off and "Hosed" by PCGS for having his coin decrease substantially in value.
I know Dan and Nick and guess what...thats not going to happen because it is a done deal, and they are both civilized adults.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
If it is a go, I'll open the bidding at $100.
Wondercoin
Story over.
<< <i>If it is a go, I'll open the bidding at $100. >>
$125.00
AL
You can not compare this deal with Dan and Nick's deals!
MY whole problem here is the fact that you knew the coin was FB and KNEW you were going to resubmit when you fired me the 50 bucks. You knew Paul. You just saw a chance to get a $450 coin for 50 bucks. You could have said Jon, let's resubmit because it is FB. That's my beef. It's not like I sell you a coin for X amount of dollars and then it goes up in value and I say hey give some of that increase. This is a coin that is worth what it is worth and you ripped me!
Roadrunner- I paid the $200!
Wondercoin - Why would I want to bid on a coin that was mine and got ripped on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Simple - because all the proceeds would be going to a worthy charity. Should you win (and I highly doubt it) you would have your dime back and a great charitable donation in the process. Should someone else win, you would have the enjoyment of knowing your coin helped people and its journey was for a worthy cause.
Wondercoin
And, I would have a "stake" in the discussion (as would everyone else) to the extent I wanted to contribute to the sizeable donation the coin might finally bring through the bidding process.
But again, my suggestion came only after Paul commented about the possibility of returning the raw dime and, of course, it was just a suggestion (no different than all the other suggestions here such as sending Dimeman some money, etc.)
Wondercoin
Jon, I am still having a hard time thinking that you did not know this also when you cashed the check.
Paul told you in his opinion that the coin was FB, you knew he did not collect non-FB, so when the coin comes back non-FB & he shoots you out a check unsolicited you should have been able to put 1+1 togehter.
Jon, doesn't even collect FB Roosies and he would like to sell it to buy some seated stuff anyway, right Jon? Its basically about $$$ that you don't have.
No-one answered my last question which was this:
<< <i>Again, when do you really start to own a coin and stop compensating others for the coins that you've bought from them? When does this cease? >>
Can someone answer this? Jon can you answer this please?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Paul: Suggestion - Auction off the 1957-P dime right here on this Registry Forum with opening bid of $1 and closing tomorrow night - with all proceeds going to the victims of Katrina (you can pick which of the specific charities you desire the funds to go to and winning buyer can write the check directly to the charity). You can wash your hands of this, do something wonderful for charity, dimeman can become high bidder and win his coin back if he wants while at the same time making the donation and everyone can enjoy good karma. What do you say?
If it is a go, I'll open the bidding at $100.
Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin, I will give this all of the consideration that it warrants.
Thanks for trying to help...
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Yes Paul it's the money. I was counting on selling you that coin for 66FB money not 66 money. The whole point here is that you got lucky at my expence when the coin came back non FB. I should have known like someone said that you would resubmit it. I think you owe me what the coin is worth because you knew it was that. >>
Ya Jon, If the coin ORIGINALLY GRADED MS66FB, I would have sent you $400 for the coin, no questions asked...but it was graded MS66 which the "Best 3rd party grading firm in the Country" graded as and thats why you recievd $50.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>The whole point here is that you got lucky at my expence when the coin came back non FB. >>
I got lucky huh? It was at MY expenses beacuse I paid you $50 and then paid PCGS $10 + S/H/I 2 WAYS FOR A COIN THAT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE GGRADED CORRECTLY THE FIRST TIME. Hence forth you should be angry with PCGS and not me.
Are you going to answer this question or not?
<< <i>Again, when do you really start to own a coin and stop compensating others for the coins that you've bought from them? When does this cease? >>
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Hard to answer.
Legally or morally?
<< <i>Hard to answer.
Legally or morally? >>
Whats the difference?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Morally I would say once both parties are satisfied with the transaction.
Don't know if they really apply here, as I would suspect Jon would have been satisfied with the thransaction if the coin wouldn't have upgraded.
BUT I do think there's a difference between a legal sale & a moral sale.
Jon you were told the coin was 66FB before it was submitted. And I also know Paul told you they screwed up at PCGS when they graded the coin w/o bands.
So you knew the coin was worth resubmitting, but were busy crying about the low grades that came back. And how you didn't get grades good enough to pay for the submission. Now Jon you are a grown man who has been involved in coin collecting long enough to know when someone is telling you that a coin came back under graded, and it needs to be resubmitted.
<< <i>You could have said Jon, let's resubmit because it is FB. That's my beef. It's not like I sell you a coin for X amount of dollars and then it goes up in value and I say hey give some of that increase. This is a coin that is worth what it is worth and you ripped me! >>
You were so worried about the money spent on the submission you didn't listen.
No one can tell you PCGS will give a certain grade/desig. every time. But don't act like he needed to hold your hand and MAKE you resubmit the coin. He told you he thought it was 66FB, DO YOU NEED SOMEONE TO ALWAYS TELL YOU WHEN TO RESUBMIT??
So you were told the grade he saw in the coin. PCGS sent it back without FB's. You should have said resub it, or I'll resubmit it. The price guide shows 66/no bands at $32.00, Paul decides he will offer you $50.00 for it and take a chance on a resub. Then when it does get the 66FB he TOLD YOU IT WAS, you want to say he hosed you. I think you hosed yourself by not listening to him when he told you the truth. And thinking $50 was better than $32 and another submission fee.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson