<< <i>MY whole problem here is the fact that you knew the coin was FB and KNEW you were going to resubmit when you fired me the 50 bucks. You knew Paul. You just saw a chance to get a $450 coin for 50 bucks. You could have said Jon, let's resubmit because it is FB. That's my beef. It's not like I sell you a coin for X amount of dollars and then it goes up in value and I say hey give some of that increase. This is a coin that is worth what it is worth and you ripped me! Jon you were told the coin was 66FB before it was submitted. And I also know Paul told you they screwed up at PCGS when they graded the coin w/o bands. So you knew the coin was worth resubmitting, but were busy crying about the low grades that came back. And how you didn't get grades good enough to pay for the submission. Now Jon you are a grown man who has been involved in coin collecting long enough to know when someone is telling you that a coin came back under graded, and it needs to be resubmitted.
<< <i>You could have said Jon, let's resubmit because it is FB. That's my beef. It's not like I sell you a coin for X amount of dollars and then it goes up in value and I say hey give some of that increase. This is a coin that is worth what it is worth and you ripped me! >>
You were so worried about the money spent on the submission you didn't listen. No one can tell you PCGS will give a certain grade/desig. every time. But don't act like he needed to hold your hand and MAKE you resubmit the coin. He told you he thought it was 66FB, DO YOU NEED SOMEONE TO ALWAYS TELL YOU WHEN TO RESUBMIT?? So you were told the grade he saw in the coin. PCGS sent it back without FB's. You should have said resub it, or I'll resubmit it. The price guide shows 66/no bands at $32.00, Paul decides he will offer you $50.00 for it and take a chance on a resub. Then when it does get the 66FB he TOLD YOU IT WAS, you want to say he hosed you. I think you hosed yourself by not listening to him when he told you the truth. And thinking $50 was better than $32 and another submission fee. >>
Dan, I think you've summed this up quite thoroughly. Many times over the years I've sold certified coins to collectors that have subsequently upgraded. Sometimes they write and tell me so. Frankly, I'm glad for them. I hate playing the crackout game and I simply buy high-end coins for resale, generally paying a premium for them. Jon was told that the coin should have graded MS-66FB and he opted to do nothing about it, perhaps not wanted to as they say, "throw good money after bad." Paul got lucky...there's NO WAY he could have known he'd get the FB designation. He might well have gotten the same grade 3 or 4 more times the given up!
I don't have a dog in this fight and as far as I know have never sold a coin to either Paul or Jon, but it's clear to me that when Jon accepted and deposited the check, it was a DONE DEAL. The deal was then final.
A few months ago, I bought a small estate and the best coin in it was a 1909-S VDB 1c, raw. I knew it was genuine, but could see clear rub on the cheekbone and jaw, so I paid AU money for the coin. It was the only coin in the mixed lot of coins worth having graded. PCGS graded it MS-62 BN. Sold it on eBay as a MS-62 BN but in the description stated that I belived it was only a choice AU. A dealer bought it and I made $400 over what I paid. Sent the daughter who was handling the estate $200, half of my profit. She was surprised and pleased and send me a nice thank you note.
Yet, I am not implying in ANY WAY that Paul should do the same. I believe what Dan so aptly summarized draws the only conclusion that could be drawn. It was a done deal. No one was cheated or "ripped." Dimeman has simply been initiated into the real world of lack of consistency by grading companies, even by the best one!
<< <i>Perhaps the real question that needs to be asked to determine Paul's integrity (or more accuately his lack thereof) is why the stooge knowing, stating, and being convinced the coin was a FB, would offer non-FB money simply because PCGS didn't grade it "right" the first time around?
I say it was opportunistism at its finest.
Would it be ethical to offer business strike money for a 1909-VDB Lincoln if the original owner believed it was a proof, you concurred that it was a proof, had you submit to PCGS, and PCGS subsequently "mistakenly" graded it as a business strike MS66RD first time thru?
Would it then be OK to offer $200 or so for a $50k+ coin that you thought had a great chance of being "corrected" by PCGS next time thru?
The same could apply to any of a numerous list of varieties or VAMS that PCGS got wrong first time thru.
In this case it merely happened to be an attribute (FB) that they "got wrong". No one will ever know what was in your heart and mind when you made the offer of $50 but I'd wager you STILL believed it was FB when you did so. >>
Pretty, vicious statement, don't you think, Roger? How can you call this "opportunism at its finest?" Jon had the opportunity to resubmit or ask for a Presidential Review but did not. I think YOUR attitude towards Paul is totally without merit.
What do YOU do if you buy a mixed bag of unc Lincoln cents and find a rare variety? Send the seller a check for your good fortune? I don't think so!
To those that say the coin getting designated as FB was 'Luck', I don't believe that. Paul strongly felt it was FB, & in the end it graded that way. But Paul has never denied that .
The only part of this whole soap opera that I feel was shady on Paul's part was that he sent money instead of the coin back to Jon, thereby preventing Jon from looking at the coin closely & making his own decisionon whether the coin deserved resubmission without prior agreement. I just don't like that fact. Does that null what happened afterwards? Jon cashed the check, thereby (IMO) agreeing to the sale. Would he have agreed to sell the coin for $50 if it was returned to him & he was to look at it? Nobody can say. But my question about what the agreement actually was has yet to be answered (Was it "if the coin ever became FB", or was it if the coin came back from PCGS as FB on that submission?)
<< <i>But my question about what the agreement actually was has yet to be answered (Was it "if the coin ever became FB", or was it if the coin came back from PCGS as FB on that submission?) >>
it was if the coin becomes FB on this submission, which it did not.
As I have never met, corresponded or transacted with Paul, I have zero reason to support Paul except that he is right. Dimeman is wrong for the thread and so is his opinion on the thread. If you ask me, dimeman is pretty much a totally jerk and admittedly is an idiot about modern coins. IMHO.
<< But my question about what the agreement actually was has yet to be answered (Was it "if the coin ever became FB", or was it if the coin came back from PCGS as FB on that submission?) >>
it was if the coin becomes FB on this submission, which it did not.
Thanks for the answer Paul, now how about this one I also asked previously.....
PS- I persume Paul sent the coins in for grading, & if so, why not have the coins sent back to the 'owner' instead of the 'submitter'? There is a box for "Return Shipping Address".
Besides guarenteeing Jon got all his coins back, it also would have saved S/H/I costs from Paul to Jon.
By not doing this, not returning all Jon's coins to him, it raises doubts. As small as it may be, I start to wonder.
So, is the a crimainal or civil jury of your peers?
iras4 - You don't have the story straight in you head. I did not have the in my hand in the 66 holder! It's not that I sent a coin in got a grade and sold it to Paul who inturn resubmited it and got the upgrade. That would be completely different and OK. I sent the coins raw to Paul not looking at them first and took his word as to what they were. He said the 57-P was a sure 66FB and it was. He has stated that he would have paid the $400 if it came back 66FB. But since it didn't the first time he saw a chance to rip the coin for 50 bucks. And for those who say he did me a favor by looking thru them and sending them in...........First I paid the fees and second I would be glad for anyone out there to send me some nice raw Barbers or Seated and let me send them in at your expence and then let me look thru them for coins I want to buy!!!!!
And Griv I am sick and tired of your constant spew on me!! So you don't like me because of my view on moderns! Well, tuff sh*t!!! I'll just draw a chaulk line and you go lay in it OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dimeman, you said it yourself, you'd post your story and see what people had to say and so here I am. No, I’m not taking the other side because you were a jerk previously. I am actually appalled to see someone post a personal transaction between 2 people for all to see. What are you hoping to do? Ruin Stooge's professional reputation? Is that worth your measly $300?
Even after a good number of people have expressed the same you still desire to drag Stooge through the mud as you defend your position on a public forum. You are some piece of work. Just like I suspected, a bitter old fart that thinks embarrassing someone on line is a good idea. Well I can tell you that if it were me I might file legal action based on defamation of character so if I were you, I'd shut your pie hole, tell Stooge you are sorry about this thread and if you want to continue to be a jerk off line, that is your right.
<< <i>Dimeman, you said it yourself, you'd post your story and see what people had to say and so here I am. No, I’m not taking the other side because you were a jerk previously. I am actually appalled to see someone post a personal transaction between 2 people for all to see. What are you hoping to do? Ruin Stooge's professional reputation? Is that worth your measly $300?
Even after a good number of people have expressed the same you still desire to drag Stooge through the mud as you defend your position on a public forum. You are some piece of work. Just like I suspected, a bitter old fart that thinks embarrassing someone on line is a good idea. Well I can tell you that if it were me I might file legal action based on defamation of character so if I were you, I'd shut your pie hole, tell Stooge you are sorry about this thread and if you want to continue to be a jerk off line, that is your right. >>
"This is all quite laughable. Everyone rants here to buy the coin not the plastic. Here is a Roosy expert buying on the plastic (to his advantage of course) he knows quite otherwise the coin is misattributed (note: not misgraded, just mis-attributed as non-FT)."
That sums it up fairly well.
"What do YOU do if you buy a mixed bag of unc Lincoln cents and find a rare variety? Send the seller a check for your good fortune? I don't think so!
Ira,
You have COMPLETELY missed the mark with your fallacious analogy. If I had bought a mixed bag of cents I would have (presumably) not have known what was in the bag or the grade of anything in the bag AND would have certainly had NO basis to make a statement to the effect of "I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE 1941 WAS AN MS66RD FS-018", e.g.
In the case at hand, Paul had the advantage of seeing the coin in advance, stating that (to paraphrase) "AT NO TIME DID HE BELIEVE IT TO BE A NON-FB COIN", even had it in a PCGS MS66 slab so that any uncertainty as to the grade was taken off the table, and yet STILL he offered non-FB money for it.
You call my stating of these facts as vicious? Change the facts then.
To draw on your analogy, if in fact I DID have a chance to pre-screen the lot AND stated that I believed the 1941 was FS-018 (say approx MS66RD) AND I agreed to send it for you to PCGS AND they graded if MS66RD BUT DIDN'T NOTE THE DDO, AND if I then offered you MS66RD money for a plain jane 1941 THEN my act would be criminal - EVEN IF YOU WERE STUPID OR DESPERATE ENOUGH TO HAVE ACCEPTED MY OFFER.
How is this story different? So it was an attribute and not a designation. 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.
Since you saw fit to chime in in Paul's defense, tell us, if YOU believe a coin to be FB (AND YOU NEVER HAD ANY DOUBT THAT IT WAS), would YOU offer non-FB money for it?
Would YOUR offer be SOLELY contingent on a particular PCGS grade?
Don't you EVER make an offer extraneous to whatever grade PCGS (in its infinite wisdom) might have saw fit to assign?
Are you stating that ALL offers for ALL coins MUST be consistent with the current grade on a PCGS slab and that NO offers should EVER be made based on ones belief as to what the REAL grade is (in ones own opinion)?
This is a great thread to expose some of the underhanded "wiggle room" that exists in the coin business.
<< <i>Just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, I will ask again,
.......why not have the coins sent back to the 'owner' instead of the 'submitter'? There is a box for "Return Shipping Address".
I am presuming this can be done. >>
Just so you understand Ajia, that this was sent in under my PCGS subscription and not his, so why would I have marked sent to Dimeman when I had 2 coins of my own on the submission? What really does this matter?
Also, if I were to have this submission sent to him, it would be just my luck to have the following submissions sent to his house by accident. I don't think so.
And by the way, I have had others piggyback coins on my submissions and Dimeman is the only unhappy person out of the bunch....I believe he was unhappy BEFORE the grades came back, as I had said about 95 posts ago.
As I finalize the JHF collection of Roosies for public auction, there is (1) PCGS-MS68 Roosie that I firmly believe is FB but has yet to receive the designation. I am as confident as Paul was on the 1957 that this particular coin is FB - that and $4 gets me a coffee at Starbucks. The difference in price between the MS68 grade and the MS68FB grade may be as much as $5,000+ in this case. While the bidders might pay a reasonable premium for the super looking MS68 coin, it will obviously not be anywhere near the entire $5,000 diffrerence had PCGS given the designation. And, why should it be? Getting that FB on the holder is worth money (sometimes big money) - it might get on there the next time through for the winning bidder or it might never get on there. Paul paid about a 50%premium to buy the 1957 without the bands on the holder. If JHF's MS68 sells at auction for the same 50% premium Paul paid, the winning bidder could score a $2,500 profit if he gets the designation on the coin. Welcome to the coin business.
As RBTEX pointed out, Dimeman needs to learn a thing or two about the coin business - all Dimeman had to do was to say to Paul - "if my coin works in the next 3 years, you will send me $200". I bet Paul would have happily said "sure thing" and they each would have enjoyed the designation upgrade later. Dimeman failed to include ANY conditions on his sale of the coin - Dimeman loses out.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Please don't send Dimeman your freshly slabbed PCGS seated and barber coins.......send them to me to cherry over first. I'll offer to pay 20% premium for anything I like. And if you really push me, I'll pay 50% premiums. That offer goes for all your old slabs too. Anything I like I'll pay 20% over bid, no questions asked. After all, everyone knows all the old slabs are picked over clean.
Just to let you know publicly that I have had a hard time dealing with the fact that you are unhappy regarding a "Friendship" coin deal. Yes, it didn't work out for you as I had hoped, and it worked out well for me. Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
After I had another night to think about it, and I had a long telephone conversation with Mr. Nick Cascio (Whom I look up to with great respect as he is THE FOREMOST ROOSIE EXPERT, and also as a Mentor figure) he said a few things to me that made me think. He actually mentioned the above senario to me, and since you went public, this is what I will do:
The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did.
Also, in no way do I want you do edit this thread. I want it left AS IS, so I may reflect back to it.
I will send you the check in the next XXX amt. of days, because if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing. Now I don't believe that 1 man should tell another man what to do, but in this case, I'm tired of all of the B.S. thats on these boards, especially coming from YOU! If you don't like something, just ignore it.
Paul, all those stupid clichés start dancing through my head......20/20 hindsight is always perfect, perception is reality, etc.
First of all let me say you have every right to do what you wanted with the coin once Jon cashed your check.
And the only issue I have with what you did, or did not do, is return the coin & allow Jon to view the coin in question in the PCGS slab. Unless there was a previous agreement to purchase the coin for $50 if it came back non-FB I still feel Jon should have been able to look at the coin in the slab & make up his own mind on whether to sell or not. Nobody twisted his arm to cash the check, but a check in hand when money is needed is hard to refuse.
Wondercoin, what if JHF sent you those Roosie's raw, and you told him that he had a sure MS68FB on the coin you mentioned. Coin came back MS68 non-FB, and you shot out a check for 150% over PCGS value without his authorization, along with his other coins. You know he needs the money (OK, this is truly hypothetical) & figure he'll cash the check. You in turn resumit & get the FB. Think that's ethical?
Sometimes it's about perception, and in this case I have been on both sides of the fence. Not on whether Paul could do what he did, as I stated many times, once the check was cashed....... But more on the ethics of shooting out the check & not the coin.
The difference in price between the MS68 grade and the MS68FB grade may be as much as $5,000+ in this case. While the bidders might pay a reasonable premium for the super looking MS68 coin, it will obviously not be anywhere near the entire $5,000 diffrerence had PCGS given the designation. And, why should it be? Getting that FB on the holder is worth money (sometimes big money)
Absolutely silly. If I were to collect Roosies, Mercs, SLQ's, Franklins, etc there's absolutely no way I'd pay these premiums for strike on less than 1% of the coin. I'd collect the nicest eye appealing example I could without the premium and count myself lucky.
<< <i>Nobody twisted his arm to cash the check, but a check in hand when money is needed is hard to refuse. >>
Do you really think that Jon NEEDED the money? How gullable are you. He has been adding dimes to his complete dime set at an astronomical rate. Do you really think that $200, $300, or even $400 would make or break Dimeman?
Ajia - I agree your hypothetical is completely different than my actual situation mentioned in my last post. I already had your hypo come up - check out my early posting to this thread concerning the $25k upgrade to DCAM for a customer. My comment was only intended to point out that just like actual grade upgrades, designation upgrades can be just as valuable - there were some posts suggesting this was merely a "misdesignation".
Paul's latest offer to Dimeman is exactly how this deal should have gone down IMHO had Dimeman simply known "a thing or two about the coin business". He should have sold the coin to Paul with the right to 50% of the upgrade later. Even though Dimeman had not asked for the obvious back then, Paul has now offered it to him anyway now. Thus, should end this fiasco.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Absolutely silly. If I were to collect Roosies, Mercs, SLQ's, Franklins, etc there's absolutely no way I'd pay these premiums for strike on less than 1% of the coin. I'd collect the nicest eye appealing example I could without the premium and count myself lucky. >>
Wait till PCGS comes out with the designation for Trade Dollars...I can see it now:
TDN - Your opinion is certainly shared by many. And, that MS68 dime with 99%+ FB minimum should command strong money for its wonderful strike and eye appeal, even without the designation. But, as you know, those words "Full Band" add $$$ to the value of the coin.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
There are lots of ads out there saying highest buyer and will shoot you a check as soon as we get the coins. EVERY coin to be fully paid for, nothing overlooked. Reality is much different however.
Certainly Stooge's offer is much fairer than where things started from. It should be an eye opener to all who don't already know the fleeting value of a slabbed grade.
One final story: I had purchased a raw 1882 seated half out of Stack's Vermeulle sale (auction originally slated for 9/11/01 which is profound by itself). I honed in on this lot as it was a gem Mint State coin and not a proof as described. I also graded the lot as 66++ with an excellent chance to 67. Liner coins always bring a good profit potential. I felt I could get the coin for mid-66 money. The coin saw good competition and I found myself having to pay $5700 for it (strong 66++ money). AT least one other saw the coin as I did. But it only takes 2 fools out of a 100 to "prove" a coin's raw value right....at least until it makes it to the grading room (lol).
There was lots of risk going that high rather than to say $4500. When leaving the auction I talked briefly with one of my old seated mentors who didn't know I had won the lot. He mentioned the coin and said, "boy was that a burial for someone on a MS 65-66 coin." No doubt he was hoping to cherry it too. In any case I felt a little worse now. First submission to NGC it came back MS65. Holy Cow, major burial. That's a $3000 loss staring at me. The coin looked solid 66 at least when I saw it raw out of the holder. But then again, this whole submission came back a point low across the board (and all were resubmitted and came back 1-2 pts higher). Yup, the 1882 half was the 2 pts higher and came back MS67. It had some slight knee and field scuffs but was a true 66+ coin....I could honestly say the 67 was a bit of a gift. Still, I rarely see gifts from either serice these days and wasn't turning this one back in. It wasn't that my mentor was wrong, in fact the grading service probably got this coin wrong on both submissions of 65 and 67). If you believe the plastic really tells all, you are lost. Somedays the plastic makes you look like a genius and other times like a dolt.
there were some posts suggesting this was merely a "misdesignation ......and that would appear to be the case here since a noted expert felt it was FB as did PCGS on the 2nd time through. One grading event does not constitute reality. It's merely one grading event......nothing more and nothing less. It may take up to 5 grading events for a non-expert to determine a coin's true market value.....now isn't that silly! Sometimes it only takes 2 or 3!
<< <i>Absolutely silly. If I were to collect Roosies, Mercs, SLQ's, Franklins, etc there's absolutely no way I'd pay these premiums for strike on less than 1% of the coin. I'd collect the nicest eye appealing example I could without the premium and count myself lucky. >>
Wait till PCGS comes out with the designation for Trade Dollars...I can see it now:
I would like to address a question that ajia asked several times regarding why someone would submit coins for others and have them not sent to the owner's address. This is something I have done for a number of folks and I always have the coins shipped to me, which is something that must be agreed upon before I will submit coins for others. The coins are shipped to me so as to avoid any possible complication regarding my shipping address, the owners shipping address or my credit card information that is linked to my account. It is far too easy to believe that somewhere along the line that an address other than mine might end up on my account if I am requestion packages to be sent to multiple addresses. When I receive the coins they are either sold by me, which is what the owner wanted to begin with, or they are shipped back to the owner at the expense of the owner. If I also sent coins in on the same submission then we share the shipping expense to and from PCGS, otherwise, they pay that, too. Folks send me collections to get my opinion as to where they might maximize their sales price via certification and I provide that level of service without compensation.
I can imagine that Paul sent the check to Jon because he assumed Jon would accept the price and he did not want to have to wait for the coin to be shipped back to him. However, it likely would have been better to send a PM or email to Jon to offer the check before shipping the coins. Once payment is accepted, though, there is no future ownership right by Jon, nor is there an obligation by Jon to pay Paul a certain amount for numerous possible designation reviews if they fail.
The point about a misdesignation is interesting and I can share a personal experience with that scenario. I once owned a wonderfully toned 1934 Merc graded by ICG when they opened up as MS68FB. I paid strong for the coin because it was the equal of other PCGS MS68FB Mercs I had owned in terms of color, strike, marks, luster and bands. The coin was submitted to PCGS at an ANA show for crossover where it failed to cross and where I was told the grader saw it as MS66FB, which is a significant drop from MS68FB, but at least the FB was agreed upon. It was then brought to FUN where I had DH look at it personally and he described the coin, without hesitation, as "full PCGS MS68 quality, great color, no-brainer FB". I submitted it that day for crossover to PCGS and it again failed, but this time the grader who looked at the coin thought it was MS68 without FB. So, ICG saw it as MS68FB, I saw it as MS68FB, a PCGS grader saw it as MS66FB, DB saw it as MS68FB and another PCGS grader saw it as MS68 without FB. The coin was subsequently sold to another dealer at MS68FB levels still within the ICG holder.
Dimeman, you should respond and edit your title if you accept his offer.
In the future, be more specific in your transactions. If you accept an offer, ask the right questions so that even if someone did the same thing to you you'd be covered one way or the other - i.e. either there'd be NO DOUBT about what your expectations were AND any respresentations (&/or warranties - if any) the buyer made to you were documented - if only via PM or e-mail (as opposed to a formal contract). This could have easily been achieved thru a simple list of questions you sent to Paul to have him answer in regards to any concerns you might have had or envisioned having in the future.
You should have asked if 1). he still believed it was FB, 2). if he would split some of the upside (or returned the coin to you for some specific pre-agreed upon price) if he ever got it into a FB holder, 3). whether or not you should resubmit it, etc. These should have been explicitly addressed - particularly #2.
Once a deal is a deal, and not having asked the right questions, you would reasonably be expected to have the terms altered in your favor ONLY if some type of fraud or shananigans were initially invovled.
What happened here (on a spectrum of possibilities) was about the weakest case you could ever expect to present itself to make such a claim.
Paul's offer, even if not viewed by you as completely fair AT THIS POINT, should, at least in retrospect, be viewed as what a reasonable offer would have looked like had it been made it BEFORE he got the ("correct") designation from PCGS. If only because (at least at THAT point) a more sound argument for his assuming the risk (that PCGS would EVER "get it right") should rightly have been incorporated into the terms.
Stooge,
Much of the same could be said to apply to you. In the future, be MUCH MORE SPECIFIC about your intentions and the terms of the deal AS YOU SEE THEM. Had you told him EXPLICITLY that once he cashed the check that you felt that not only you had clear title to the coin but that should it ever upgrade (or in this case obtain the designation that YOU HAD NO DOUBT WAS CORRECT) that all benefits of such change were to accrue solely to you, he would have absolutely no argument at all.
Yes it sounds somewhat absurd to go to this length, but to not do so only sets the stage for the status of your ownership to be more validly challanged. Better to explicitly include lots of details that might never get used than to not include some that ultimately are proven to be needed.
fyi: remember the nickel that went from FS to non-FS? Most would say a VERY HEFTY premium should still rightly be paid due to it being the closest known to genuine FS status for the date and mintmark (wasn't it a 64-D???).
Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
Paul,
I did go to you privitely (PM) several times and you would do nothing! I then said I would put it on the forum and see what they thought. You said fine go ahead. I wish you would have made the above deal to me before all of this. I would have taken the 400 and the coin would have been yours without sending it back and forth.
And as for the name calling that was other people NOT me. I never once attacked you personally!
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
<< <i>Paul, You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum. Jon >>
Can you not see that Paul has been OVERLY fair? What a dirt bag. Gimme, gimme, gimme. I said I'd cover the difference if you'd shut the heck up. Send me your mailing address via PM as It'll be more than worth it to make you and your petty whinning go away. Why don't you just change your avatar name to Dimejerk since it would absolutely describe you. and I mean that in the nicest way I can. Get a life Jon, you are making ZERO friends on this issue.
<< <i> The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did. >>
Stooge,
I am disappointed with you for this offer. Just for everyone’s information, I do not know Stooge, never had any dealings with him or contact with him, nor do I collect slabbed dimes.
I have read this thread and have posted a few times. The way Dimeman titled and commented in this thread is inexcusable and unwarranted of being rewarded. Dimeman has shown his true colors for the snake he is, talk about the proverbial five year old – “If I can’t have my way I will take my toys and go home”.
Everyone has good deals and bad. I can remember trading two early commemorative coins last year with a member of these boards, both PQ and in NGC holders, a Gettysburg MS65 and a Norfolk MS66. The new owner cracked them out and sent them into PCGS, they came back MS64 and MS65 respectfully. The new owner emailed me with the results and I told him that PCGS got them wrong, that they both were PQ for the grade. The owner re-cracked them out of the plastic and sent them in again to PCGS. Guess what, the Gettysburg came back in a MS66 holder and the Norfolk is seating in a MS67 holder. When the owner told me about the grades he got, all I told him was I knew they were PQ in the NGC holders and congratulations on the upgrade. If I were Dimeman, then it sounds like I would have told him that I wanted to get paid for the upgrades (which is a pile of bull)! They were his coins to do what he wanted to do with, just like the 57 dime was yours!
To reward Dimeman for crying like a baby is without merit, he cashed your check and you waited thirty days for him to change his mind? Enough is enough, don’t pay him one red cent or even a brown one!
"You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
Jon"
Wouldn't you prefer the coin in exchange for reimbursing him what he had into it?
Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
Paul,
I did go to you privitely (PM) several times and you would do nothing! I then said I would put it on the forum and see what they thought. You said fine go ahead. I wish you would have made the above deal to me before all of this. I would have taken the 400 and the coin would have been yours without sending it back and forth.
And as for the name calling that was other people NOT me. I never once attacked you personally!
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
Jon >>
Jon I really think you are making a mistake by posting this after Paul has made you a very good offer. I think you need to think about this post for a day or two if Paul will let you do it.
I did go to you privitely (PM) several times and you would do nothing! I then said I would put it on the forum and see what they thought. You said fine go ahead. I wish you would have made the above deal to me before all of this. I would have taken the 400 and the coin would have been yours without sending it back and forth.
And as for the name calling that was other people NOT me. I never once attacked you personally!
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
Jon >>
Jon, just so I'm fully aware, please clarify this for me...you still want the $400 for the coin instead of the $150 I said I would send? The $150 would not only cover your entire submission, but pay you half for the '57.
Why bid? I will send the dirt bag dimejerk $300 just to shut up. I'll include another $100 if he apologizes to Paul and another $100 if he shuts his ignorant secondary anus over this trivial issue.
IS THIS WHAT SERIOUS COIN COLLECTORS GO TO WAR OVER? MAYBE A SPOTLIGHT ON FOX NEWS WILL SHOW THE WORLD WHAT DIME COLLECTORS DO OVER A $300 ISSUE?
Geez, just when you think you've seen everything you come across a thread by serious and professional coin collectors/dealers and you have to shake your head and ask where did all the adults go? I'd say if there is anyone monitoring these threads that this is one that needs to be LOCKED and NOW!
Paul made a more then fair offer to resolve this issue. Jon, Remember Paul got the coin designated. I don't care what the coin looks like or how strong the bands are. Like Mitch said, There is no guarantee.
I rarely get involved with issues like this on the boards but I have to say. At this point if I was Paul I would resend my offer. I don't believe anyone would think any lesser of Paul
I answered your PM, but please stick with the discussion here. Here is my quote from a previous post:
<< <i>Dimeman,
Just to let you know publicly that I have had a hard time dealing with the fact that you are unhappy regarding a "Friendship" coin deal. Yes, it didn't work out for you as I had hoped, and it worked out well for me. Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
After I had another night to think about it, and I had a long telephone conversation with Mr. Nick Cascio (Whom I look up to with great respect as he is THE FOREMOST ROOSIE EXPERT, and also as a Mentor figure) he said a few things to me that made me think. He actually mentioned the above senario to me, and since you went public, this is what I will do:
The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did.
Also, in no way do I want you do edit this thread. I want it left AS IS, so I may reflect back to it.
I will send you the check in the next XXX amt. of days, because if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing. Now I don't believe that 1 man should tell another man what to do, but in this case, I'm tired of all of the B.S. thats on these boards, especially coming from YOU! If you don't like something, just ignore it.
Let me know if this is acceptable with you.
Later, Paul. >>
Jon, I'm not trying to make you look bad in public, you are doing a fine job of that on your own...besides, in your words I RIPPED YOU OFF.
Also answer this for me please:
<< <i>Jon, just so I'm fully aware, please clarify this for me...you still want the $400 for the coin instead of the $150 I said I would send? The $150 would not only cover your entire submission, but pay you half for the '57.
<< <i>Paul made a more then fair offer to resolve this issue. Jon, Remember Paul got the coin designated. I don't care what the coin looks like or how strong the bands are. Like Mitch said, There is no guarantee.
I rarely get involved with issues like this on the boards but I have to say. At this point if I was Paul I would resend my offer. I don't believe anyone would think any lesser of Paul >>
Personally this is my view as well. I have been reading and quietly contemplating a response to this thread. I am neither friend nor foe to either party involved here so I have no allegiance with either of them.
At first I believed that Paul was correct in not giving Jon any money for the coin. If you wanted to see it in hand YOU should have said so. Paul is not a mind reader. It seems to me that you didn't really care about the coins much anyway having never even looked at them. Personally I look at every coin I own multiple times before I decided what to do with it.
Next Paul made a more than generous offer to give you some of HIS profit not YOUR profit. You sold the coin without even looking at it which was your worst mistake. What response do you have for him after he offered to give you another $150 for the coin? You spit in his face again on a public forum!!
My response: I personally have lost all respect for you and will never do business with you for any transaction. If I were Paul I wouldn't even wait for your 2nd response. I would rescind my entire offer and tell you to go back to living in the cave you came from. You are way out of line for posting this thread, for trying to get money for a coin that isn't yours, and worst of all for turning your back on a so-called friend for a $300 deal.
""You are way out of line for posting this thread, for trying to get money for a coin that isn't yours, and worst of all for turning your back on a so-called friend for a $300 deal. ""
Well I have to give it to dimejerk, if he decides to be a total jerk then no one is going to change his mind. But with that said your paltry credibility in the coin industry is pretty much zero. I don't think anyone here would knowingly transact with you under any circumstances. I guess you are either TOO stupid or TOO proud to just end this and move on. You might even gain a point or two if you could only get a ball or at least borrow one!
Comments
<< <i>MY whole problem here is the fact that you knew the coin was FB and KNEW you were going to resubmit when you fired me the 50 bucks. You knew Paul. You just saw a chance to get a $450 coin for 50 bucks. You could have said Jon, let's resubmit because it is FB. That's my beef. It's not like I sell you a coin for X amount of dollars and then it goes up in value and I say hey give some of that increase. This is a coin that is worth what it is worth and you ripped me!
Jon you were told the coin was 66FB before it was submitted. And I also know Paul told you they screwed up at PCGS when they graded the coin w/o bands.
So you knew the coin was worth resubmitting, but were busy crying about the low grades that came back. And how you didn't get grades good enough to pay for the submission. Now Jon you are a grown man who has been involved in coin collecting long enough to know when someone is telling you that a coin came back under graded, and it needs to be resubmitted.
<< <i>You could have said Jon, let's resubmit because it is FB. That's my beef. It's not like I sell you a coin for X amount of dollars and then it goes up in value and I say hey give some of that increase. This is a coin that is worth what it is worth and you ripped me! >>
You were so worried about the money spent on the submission you didn't listen.
No one can tell you PCGS will give a certain grade/desig. every time. But don't act like he needed to hold your hand and MAKE you resubmit the coin. He told you he thought it was 66FB, DO YOU NEED SOMEONE TO ALWAYS TELL YOU WHEN TO RESUBMIT??
So you were told the grade he saw in the coin. PCGS sent it back without FB's. You should have said resub it, or I'll resubmit it. The price guide shows 66/no bands at $32.00, Paul decides he will offer you $50.00 for it and take a chance on a resub. Then when it does get the 66FB he TOLD YOU IT WAS, you want to say he hosed you. I think you hosed yourself by not listening to him when he told you the truth. And thinking $50 was better than $32 and another submission fee. >>
Dan, I think you've summed this up quite thoroughly. Many times over the years I've sold certified coins to collectors that have subsequently upgraded. Sometimes they write and tell me so. Frankly, I'm glad for them. I hate playing the crackout game and I simply buy high-end coins for resale, generally paying a premium for them. Jon was told that the coin should have graded MS-66FB and he opted to do nothing about it, perhaps not wanted to as they say, "throw good money after bad." Paul got lucky...there's NO WAY he could have known he'd get the FB designation. He might well have gotten the same grade 3 or 4 more times the given up!
I don't have a dog in this fight and as far as I know have never sold a coin to either Paul or Jon, but it's clear to me that when Jon accepted and deposited the check, it was a DONE DEAL. The deal was then final.
A few months ago, I bought a small estate and the best coin in it was a 1909-S VDB 1c, raw. I knew it was genuine, but could see clear rub on the cheekbone and jaw, so I paid AU money for the coin. It was the only coin in the mixed lot of coins worth having graded. PCGS graded it MS-62 BN. Sold it on eBay as a MS-62 BN but in the description stated that I belived it was only a choice AU. A dealer bought it and I made $400 over what I paid. Sent the daughter who was handling the estate $200, half of my profit. She was surprised and pleased and send me a nice thank you note.
Yet, I am not implying in ANY WAY that Paul should do the same. I believe what Dan so aptly summarized draws the only conclusion that could be drawn. It was a done deal. No one was cheated or "ripped." Dimeman has simply been initiated into the real world of lack of consistency by grading companies, even by the best one!
Let's move on.
Ira
<< <i>Perhaps the real question that needs to be asked to determine Paul's integrity (or more accuately his lack thereof) is why the stooge knowing, stating, and being convinced the coin was a FB, would offer non-FB money simply because PCGS didn't grade it "right" the first time around?
I say it was opportunistism at its finest.
Would it be ethical to offer business strike money for a 1909-VDB Lincoln if the original owner believed it was a proof, you concurred that it was a proof, had you submit to PCGS, and PCGS subsequently "mistakenly" graded it as a business strike MS66RD first time thru?
Would it then be OK to offer $200 or so for a $50k+ coin that you thought had a great chance of being "corrected" by PCGS next time thru?
The same could apply to any of a numerous list of varieties or VAMS that PCGS got wrong first time thru.
In this case it merely happened to be an attribute (FB) that they "got wrong". No one will ever know what was in your heart and mind when you made the offer of $50 but I'd wager you STILL believed it was FB when you did so. >>
Pretty, vicious statement, don't you think, Roger? How can you call this "opportunism at its finest?" Jon had the opportunity to resubmit or ask for a Presidential Review but did not. I think YOUR attitude towards Paul is totally without merit.
What do YOU do if you buy a mixed bag of unc Lincoln cents and find a rare variety? Send the seller a check for your good fortune? I don't think so!
Ira
But this is so much fun!
To those that say the coin getting designated as FB was 'Luck', I don't believe that.
Paul strongly felt it was FB, & in the end it graded that way.
But Paul has never denied that .
The only part of this whole soap opera that I feel was shady on Paul's part was that he sent money instead of the coin back to Jon, thereby preventing Jon from looking at the coin closely & making his own decisionon whether the coin deserved resubmission without prior agreement.
I just don't like that fact.
Does that null what happened afterwards?
Jon cashed the check, thereby (IMO) agreeing to the sale.
Would he have agreed to sell the coin for $50 if it was returned to him & he was to look at it?
Nobody can say.
But my question about what the agreement actually was has yet to be answered (Was it "if the coin ever became FB", or was it if the coin came back from PCGS as FB on that submission?)
<< <i>But my question about what the agreement actually was has yet to be answered (Was it "if the coin ever became FB", or was it if the coin came back from PCGS as FB on that submission?) >>
it was if the coin becomes FB on this submission, which it did not.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
it was if the coin becomes FB on this submission, which it did not.
Thanks for the answer Paul, now how about this one I also asked previously.....
PS- I persume Paul sent the coins in for grading, & if so, why not have the coins sent back to the 'owner' instead of the 'submitter'? There is a box for "Return Shipping Address".
Besides guarenteeing Jon got all his coins back, it also would have saved S/H/I costs from Paul to Jon.
By not doing this, not returning all Jon's coins to him, it raises doubts.
As small as it may be, I start to wonder.
So, is the a crimainal or civil jury of your peers?
And Griv I am sick and tired of your constant spew on me!! So you don't like me because of my view on moderns! Well, tuff sh*t!!! I'll just draw a chaulk line and you go lay in it OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even after a good number of people have expressed the same you still desire to drag Stooge through the mud as you defend your position on a public forum. You are some piece of work. Just like I suspected, a bitter old fart that thinks embarrassing someone on line is a good idea. Well I can tell you that if it were me I might file legal action based on defamation of character so if I were you, I'd shut your pie hole, tell Stooge you are sorry about this thread and if you want to continue to be a jerk off line, that is your right.
<< <i>Dimeman, you said it yourself, you'd post your story and see what people had to say and so here I am. No, I’m not taking the other side because you were a jerk previously. I am actually appalled to see someone post a personal transaction between 2 people for all to see. What are you hoping to do? Ruin Stooge's professional reputation? Is that worth your measly $300?
Even after a good number of people have expressed the same you still desire to drag Stooge through the mud as you defend your position on a public forum. You are some piece of work. Just like I suspected, a bitter old fart that thinks embarrassing someone on line is a good idea. Well I can tell you that if it were me I might file legal action based on defamation of character so if I were you, I'd shut your pie hole, tell Stooge you are sorry about this thread and if you want to continue to be a jerk off line, that is your right. >>
"What do YOU do if you buy a mixed bag of unc Lincoln cents and find a rare variety? Send the seller a check for your good fortune? I don't think so!
Ira,
You have COMPLETELY missed the mark with your fallacious analogy. If I had bought a mixed bag of cents I would have (presumably) not have known what was in the bag or the grade of anything in the bag AND would have certainly had NO basis to make a statement to the effect of "I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE 1941 WAS AN MS66RD FS-018", e.g.
In the case at hand, Paul had the advantage of seeing the coin in advance, stating that (to paraphrase) "AT NO TIME DID HE BELIEVE IT TO BE A NON-FB COIN", even had it in a PCGS MS66 slab so that any uncertainty as to the grade was taken off the table, and yet STILL he offered non-FB money for it.
You call my stating of these facts as vicious? Change the facts then.
To draw on your analogy, if in fact I DID have a chance to pre-screen the lot AND stated that I believed the 1941 was FS-018 (say approx MS66RD) AND I agreed to send it for you to PCGS AND they graded if MS66RD BUT DIDN'T NOTE THE DDO, AND if I then offered you MS66RD money for a plain jane 1941 THEN my act would be criminal - EVEN IF YOU WERE STUPID OR DESPERATE ENOUGH TO HAVE ACCEPTED MY OFFER.
How is this story different? So it was an attribute and not a designation. 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.
Since you saw fit to chime in in Paul's defense, tell us, if YOU believe a coin to be FB (AND YOU NEVER HAD ANY DOUBT THAT IT WAS), would YOU offer non-FB money for it?
Would YOUR offer be SOLELY contingent on a particular PCGS grade?
Don't you EVER make an offer extraneous to whatever grade PCGS (in its infinite wisdom) might have saw fit to assign?
Are you stating that ALL offers for ALL coins MUST be consistent with the current grade on a PCGS slab and that NO offers should EVER be made based on ones belief as to what the REAL grade is (in ones own opinion)?
This is a great thread to expose some of the underhanded "wiggle room" that exists in the coin business.
.......why not have the coins sent back to the 'owner' instead of the 'submitter'? There is a box for "Return Shipping Address".
I am presuming this can be done.
<< <i>Just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, I will ask again,
.......why not have the coins sent back to the 'owner' instead of the 'submitter'? There is a box for "Return Shipping Address".
I am presuming this can be done. >>
Just so you understand Ajia, that this was sent in under my PCGS subscription and not his, so why would I have marked sent to Dimeman when I had 2 coins of my own on the submission? What really does this matter?
Also, if I were to have this submission sent to him, it would be just my luck to have the following submissions sent to his house by accident. I don't think so.
And by the way, I have had others piggyback coins on my submissions and Dimeman is the only unhappy person out of the bunch....I believe he was unhappy BEFORE the grades came back, as I had said about 95 posts ago.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
As RBTEX pointed out, Dimeman needs to learn a thing or two about the coin business - all Dimeman had to do was to say to Paul - "if my coin works in the next 3 years, you will send me $200". I bet Paul would have happily said "sure thing" and they each would have enjoyed the designation upgrade later. Dimeman failed to include ANY conditions on his sale of the coin - Dimeman loses out.
Wondercoin
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Please don't send Dimeman your freshly slabbed PCGS seated and barber coins.......send them to me to cherry over first. I'll offer to pay 20% premium for anything I like. And if you really push me, I'll pay 50% premiums. That offer goes for all your old slabs too. Anything I like I'll pay 20% over bid, no questions asked. After all, everyone knows all the old slabs are picked over clean.
PM me to tell me what you have to send. Thanks.
roadrunner
Just to let you know publicly that I have had a hard time dealing with the fact that you are unhappy regarding a "Friendship" coin deal. Yes, it didn't work out for you as I had hoped, and it worked out well for me. Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
After I had another night to think about it, and I had a long telephone conversation with Mr. Nick Cascio (Whom I look up to with great respect as he is THE FOREMOST ROOSIE EXPERT, and also as a Mentor figure) he said a few things to me that made me think. He actually mentioned the above senario to me, and since you went public, this is what I will do:
The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did.
Also, in no way do I want you do edit this thread. I want it left AS IS, so I may reflect back to it.
I will send you the check in the next XXX amt. of days, because if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing. Now I don't believe that 1 man should tell another man what to do, but in this case, I'm tired of all of the B.S. thats on these boards, especially coming from YOU! If you don't like something, just ignore it.
Let me know if this is acceptable with you.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
First of all let me say you have every right to do what you wanted with the coin once Jon cashed your check.
And the only issue I have with what you did, or did not do, is return the coin & allow Jon to view the coin in question in the PCGS slab.
Unless there was a previous agreement to purchase the coin for $50 if it came back non-FB I still feel Jon should have been able to look at the coin in the slab & make up his own mind on whether to sell or not.
Nobody twisted his arm to cash the check, but a check in hand when money is needed is hard to refuse.
Wondercoin, what if JHF sent you those Roosie's raw, and you told him that he had a sure MS68FB on the coin you mentioned.
Coin came back MS68 non-FB, and you shot out a check for 150% over PCGS value without his authorization, along with his other coins.
You know he needs the money (OK, this is truly hypothetical) & figure he'll cash the check.
You in turn resumit & get the FB. Think that's ethical?
Sometimes it's about perception, and in this case I have been on both sides of the fence.
Not on whether Paul could do what he did, as I stated many times, once the check was cashed.......
But more on the ethics of shooting out the check & not the coin.
Again, 20/20 hindsight, perception, blah....blah....blah....
Absolutely silly. If I were to collect Roosies, Mercs, SLQ's, Franklins, etc there's absolutely no way I'd pay these premiums for strike on less than 1% of the coin. I'd collect the nicest eye appealing example I could without the premium and count myself lucky.
<< <i>Nobody twisted his arm to cash the check, but a check in hand when money is needed is hard to refuse. >>
Do you really think that Jon NEEDED the money? How gullable are you. He has been adding dimes to his complete dime set at an astronomical rate. Do you really think that $200, $300, or even $400 would make or break Dimeman?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Paul's latest offer to Dimeman is exactly how this deal should have gone down IMHO had Dimeman simply known "a thing or two about the coin business". He should have sold the coin to Paul with the right to 50% of the upgrade later. Even though Dimeman had not asked for the obvious back then, Paul has now offered it to him anyway now. Thus, should end this fiasco.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Absolutely silly. If I were to collect Roosies, Mercs, SLQ's, Franklins, etc there's absolutely no way I'd pay these premiums for strike on less than 1% of the coin. I'd collect the nicest eye appealing example I could without the premium and count myself lucky. >>
Wait till PCGS comes out with the designation for Trade Dollars...I can see it now:
MS66RK = Full Rock
MS67RB = Full Ribbon
It will happen, you just wait and see!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Because of being on the fence I should just shut-up because those same flip-flop feelings are surfacing with this offfer.
OK, note to self, no matter how much you want to see how this ended, don't return to this tread.....
Added because I read up to this post:
How gullable are you.
Since I take people for their word, I guess I'm pretty gullable. Sorry.
<< <i>Thus, should end this fiasco. >>
We shall see!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Wondercoin
<< <i>OK, note to self, no matter how much you want to see how this ended, don't return to this tread..... >>
Remember....you said this was fun...
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Certainly Stooge's offer is much fairer than where things started from. It should be an eye opener to all who don't already know the fleeting value of a slabbed grade.
One final story: I had purchased a raw 1882 seated half out of Stack's Vermeulle sale (auction originally slated for 9/11/01 which is profound by itself). I honed in on this lot as it was a gem Mint State coin and not a proof as described. I also graded the lot as 66++ with an excellent chance to 67. Liner coins always bring a good profit potential. I felt I could get the coin for mid-66 money. The coin saw good competition and I found myself having to pay $5700 for it (strong 66++ money). AT least one other saw the coin as I did. But it only takes 2 fools out of a 100 to "prove" a coin's raw value right....at least until it makes it to the grading room (lol).
There was lots of risk going that high rather than to say $4500. When leaving the auction I talked briefly with one of my old seated mentors who didn't know I had won the lot. He mentioned the coin and said, "boy was that a burial for someone on a MS 65-66 coin." No doubt he was hoping to cherry it too. In any case I felt a little worse now. First submission to NGC it came back MS65. Holy Cow, major burial. That's a $3000 loss staring at me. The coin looked solid 66 at least when I saw it raw out of the holder. But then again, this whole submission came back a point low across the board (and all were resubmitted and came back 1-2 pts higher). Yup, the 1882 half was the 2 pts higher and came back MS67. It had some slight knee and field scuffs but was a true 66+ coin....I could honestly say the 67 was a bit of a gift. Still, I rarely see gifts from either serice these days and wasn't turning this one back in. It wasn't that my mentor was wrong, in fact the grading service probably got this coin wrong on both submissions of 65 and 67). If you believe the plastic really tells all, you are lost. Somedays the plastic makes you look like a genius and other times like a dolt.
there were some posts suggesting this was merely a "misdesignation ......and that would appear to be the case here
since a noted expert felt it was FB as did PCGS on the 2nd time through. One grading event does not constitute reality. It's merely one grading event......nothing more and nothing less. It may take up to 5 grading events for a non-expert to determine a coin's true market value.....now isn't that silly! Sometimes it only takes 2 or 3!
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Absolutely silly. If I were to collect Roosies, Mercs, SLQ's, Franklins, etc there's absolutely no way I'd pay these premiums for strike on less than 1% of the coin. I'd collect the nicest eye appealing example I could without the premium and count myself lucky. >>
Wait till PCGS comes out with the designation for Trade Dollars...I can see it now:
MS66RK = Full Rock
MS67RB = Full Ribbon
It will happen, you just wait and see!
Later, Paul. >>
I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE, THATS FUNNY
I can imagine that Paul sent the check to Jon because he assumed Jon would accept the price and he did not want to have to wait for the coin to be shipped back to him. However, it likely would have been better to send a PM or email to Jon to offer the check before shipping the coins. Once payment is accepted, though, there is no future ownership right by Jon, nor is there an obligation by Jon to pay Paul a certain amount for numerous possible designation reviews if they fail.
The point about a misdesignation is interesting and I can share a personal experience with that scenario. I once owned a wonderfully toned 1934 Merc graded by ICG when they opened up as MS68FB. I paid strong for the coin because it was the equal of other PCGS MS68FB Mercs I had owned in terms of color, strike, marks, luster and bands. The coin was submitted to PCGS at an ANA show for crossover where it failed to cross and where I was told the grader saw it as MS66FB, which is a significant drop from MS68FB, but at least the FB was agreed upon. It was then brought to FUN where I had DH look at it personally and he described the coin, without hesitation, as "full PCGS MS68 quality, great color, no-brainer FB". I submitted it that day for crossover to PCGS and it again failed, but this time the grader who looked at the coin thought it was MS68 without FB. So, ICG saw it as MS68FB, I saw it as MS68FB, a PCGS grader saw it as MS66FB, DB saw it as MS68FB and another PCGS grader saw it as MS68 without FB. The coin was subsequently sold to another dealer at MS68FB levels still within the ICG holder.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In the future, be more specific in your transactions. If you accept an offer, ask the right questions so that even if someone did the same thing to you you'd be covered one way or the other - i.e. either there'd be NO DOUBT about what your expectations were AND any respresentations (&/or warranties - if any) the buyer made to you were documented - if only via PM or e-mail (as opposed to a formal contract). This could have easily been achieved thru a simple list of questions you sent to Paul to have him answer in regards to any concerns you might have had or envisioned having in the future.
You should have asked if 1). he still believed it was FB, 2). if he would split some of the upside (or returned the coin to you for some specific pre-agreed upon price) if he ever got it into a FB holder, 3). whether or not you should resubmit it, etc. These should have been explicitly addressed - particularly #2.
Once a deal is a deal, and not having asked the right questions, you would reasonably be expected to have the terms altered in your favor ONLY if some type of fraud or shananigans were initially invovled.
What happened here (on a spectrum of possibilities) was about the weakest case you could ever expect to present itself to make such a claim.
Paul's offer, even if not viewed by you as completely fair AT THIS POINT, should, at least in retrospect, be viewed as what a reasonable offer would have looked like had it been made it BEFORE he got the ("correct") designation from PCGS. If only because (at least at THAT point) a more sound argument for his assuming the risk (that PCGS would EVER "get it right") should rightly have been incorporated into the terms.
Stooge,
Much of the same could be said to apply to you. In the future, be MUCH MORE SPECIFIC about your intentions and the terms of the deal AS YOU SEE THEM. Had you told him EXPLICITLY that once he cashed the check that you felt that not only you had clear title to the coin but that should it ever upgrade (or in this case obtain the designation that YOU HAD NO DOUBT WAS CORRECT) that all benefits of such change were to accrue solely to you, he would have absolutely no argument at all.
Yes it sounds somewhat absurd to go to this length, but to not do so only sets the stage for the status of your ownership to be more validly challanged. Better to explicitly include lots of details that might never get used than to not include some that ultimately are proven to be needed.
fyi: remember the nickel that went from FS to non-FS? Most would say a VERY HEFTY premium should still rightly be paid due to it being the closest known to genuine FS status for the date and mintmark (wasn't it a 64-D???).
Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
Paul,
I did go to you privitely (PM) several times and you would do nothing! I then said I would put it on the forum and see what they thought.
You said fine go ahead. I wish you would have made the above deal to me before all of this. I would have taken the 400 and the coin would have been yours without sending it back and forth.
And as for the name calling that was other people NOT me. I never once attacked you personally!
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
Jon
<< <i>Paul,
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum. Jon >>
Can you not see that Paul has been OVERLY fair? What a dirt bag. Gimme, gimme, gimme. I said I'd cover the difference if you'd shut the heck up. Send me your mailing address via PM as It'll be more than worth it to make you and your petty whinning go away. Why don't you just change your avatar name to Dimejerk since it would absolutely describe you. and I mean that in the nicest way I can. Get a life Jon, you are making ZERO friends on this issue.
<< <i> The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did. >>
Stooge,
I am disappointed with you for this offer. Just for everyone’s information, I do not know Stooge, never had any dealings with him or contact with him, nor do I collect slabbed dimes.
I have read this thread and have posted a few times. The way Dimeman titled and commented in this thread is inexcusable and unwarranted of being rewarded. Dimeman has shown his true colors for the snake he is, talk about the proverbial five year old – “If I can’t have my way I will take my toys and go home”.
Everyone has good deals and bad. I can remember trading two early commemorative coins last year with a member of these boards, both PQ and in NGC holders, a Gettysburg MS65 and a Norfolk MS66. The new owner cracked them out and sent them into PCGS, they came back MS64 and MS65 respectfully. The new owner emailed me with the results and I told him that PCGS got them wrong, that they both were PQ for the grade. The owner re-cracked them out of the plastic and sent them in again to PCGS. Guess what, the Gettysburg came back in a MS66 holder and the Norfolk is seating in a MS67 holder. When the owner told me about the grades he got, all I told him was I knew they were PQ in the NGC holders and congratulations on the upgrade. If I were Dimeman, then it sounds like I would have told him that I wanted to get paid for the upgrades (which is a pile of bull)! They were his coins to do what he wanted to do with, just like the 57 dime was yours!
To reward Dimeman for crying like a baby is without merit, he cashed your check and you waited thirty days for him to change his mind? Enough is enough, don’t pay him one red cent or even a brown one!
JMHO,
Tim
Jon"
Wouldn't you prefer the coin in exchange for reimbursing him what he had into it?
<< <i>Paul, this is from your reply:
Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
Paul,
I did go to you privitely (PM) several times and you would do nothing! I then said I would put it on the forum and see what they thought.
You said fine go ahead. I wish you would have made the above deal to me before all of this. I would have taken the 400 and the coin would have been yours without sending it back and forth.
And as for the name calling that was other people NOT me. I never once attacked you personally!
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
Jon >>
Jon I really think you are making a mistake by posting this after Paul has made you a very good offer. I think you need to think about this post for a day or two if Paul will let you do it.
Really, "The Post Is a Mistake"
Ken
<< <i>Paul,
I did go to you privitely (PM) several times and you would do nothing! I then said I would put it on the forum and see what they thought.
You said fine go ahead. I wish you would have made the above deal to me before all of this. I would have taken the 400 and the coin would have been yours without sending it back and forth.
And as for the name calling that was other people NOT me. I never once attacked you personally!
You give me the $400 you said the coin (450-50) was worth and said that you would have paid. And I will write a formal public apology here on the forum.
Jon >>
Jon, just so I'm fully aware, please clarify this for me...you still want the $400 for the coin instead of the $150 I said I would send? The $150 would not only cover your entire submission, but pay you half for the '57.
Is this what you are trying to say?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
IS THIS WHAT SERIOUS COIN COLLECTORS GO TO WAR OVER? MAYBE A SPOTLIGHT ON FOX NEWS WILL SHOW THE WORLD WHAT DIME COLLECTORS DO OVER A $300 ISSUE?
Geez, just when you think you've seen everything you come across a thread by serious and professional coin collectors/dealers and you have to shake your head and ask where did all the adults go? I'd say if there is anyone monitoring these threads that this is one that needs to be LOCKED and NOW!
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
designated. I don't care what the coin looks like or how strong the bands are. Like
Mitch said, There is no guarantee.
I rarely get involved with issues like this on the boards but I have to say. At this point if I was Paul
I would resend my offer. I don't believe anyone would think any lesser of Paul
You mean rescind not "resend" (I think).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I answered your PM, but please stick with the discussion here. Here is my quote from a previous post:
<< <i>Dimeman,
Just to let you know publicly that I have had a hard time dealing with the fact that you are unhappy regarding a "Friendship" coin deal. Yes, it didn't work out for you as I had hoped, and it worked out well for me. Had you not gone public with this, I may have just said, OK here is a deal we can work out...yes, it was your coin and I will send it back to you and you can send me the $50 + $10 for getting it FB'd. If you want to keep the coin, then by all means feel free to do so. If you want to sell it, I will then in turn give you $400 for the coin, but instead I have been humiliated and called a Scumbag (Lovingly by Dan60) and "MR. Slimeball" and "Unethical" by several on this thread, so therefore you will NOT be getting your coin back, but...
After I had another night to think about it, and I had a long telephone conversation with Mr. Nick Cascio (Whom I look up to with great respect as he is THE FOREMOST ROOSIE EXPERT, and also as a Mentor figure) he said a few things to me that made me think. He actually mentioned the above senario to me, and since you went public, this is what I will do:
The coin is worth $400, and I already have $60 into it with you and PCGS. You have $50 already, so I will shoot you a check for $150 and that will be as they say that. This is the most I can do, since it went down the way it did.
Also, in no way do I want you do edit this thread. I want it left AS IS, so I may reflect back to it.
I will send you the check in the next XXX amt. of days, because if I hear anymore complaining, I will null and void the whole deal and you will get nothing. Now I don't believe that 1 man should tell another man what to do, but in this case, I'm tired of all of the B.S. thats on these boards, especially coming from YOU! If you don't like something, just ignore it.
Let me know if this is acceptable with you.
Later, Paul. >>
Jon, I'm not trying to make you look bad in public, you are doing a fine job of that on your own...besides, in your words I RIPPED YOU OFF.
Also answer this for me please:
<< <i>Jon, just so I'm fully aware, please clarify this for me...you still want the $400 for the coin instead of the $150 I said I would send? The $150 would not only cover your entire submission, but pay you half for the '57.
Is this what you are trying to say?
Later, Paul. >>
Jon, I will be waiting...
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Yep, That's why I have a secretary.....
<< <i>Paul made a more then fair offer to resolve this issue. Jon, Remember Paul got the coin
designated. I don't care what the coin looks like or how strong the bands are. Like
Mitch said, There is no guarantee.
I rarely get involved with issues like this on the boards but I have to say. At this point if I was Paul
I would resend my offer. I don't believe anyone would think any lesser of Paul >>
Personally this is my view as well. I have been reading and quietly contemplating a response to this thread. I am neither friend nor foe to either party involved here so I have no allegiance with either of them.
At first I believed that Paul was correct in not giving Jon any money for the coin. If you wanted to see it in hand YOU should have said so. Paul is not a mind reader. It seems to me that you didn't really care about the coins much anyway having never even looked at them. Personally I look at every coin I own multiple times before I decided what to do with it.
Next Paul made a more than generous offer to give you some of HIS profit not YOUR profit. You sold the coin without even looking at it which was your worst mistake. What response do you have for him after he offered to give you another $150 for the coin? You spit in his face again on a public forum!!
My response: I personally have lost all respect for you and will never do business with you for any transaction. If I were Paul I wouldn't even wait for your 2nd response. I would rescind my entire offer and tell you to go back to living in the cave you came from. You are way out of line for posting this thread, for trying to get money for a coin that isn't yours, and worst of all for turning your back on a so-called friend for a $300 deal.
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
I could not have said it any better.....
Good night...
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.