ICG Grading

mrearlygold

Comments?

For example, if ICG says 65, reality says what? ( In general )

Cladiator

BB?

mrearlygold

Someone sent me more than 100 ICG slabbed coins and....well, what can I say. I don't want to add my opinion "yet".

rgl1345

pb2y

Its a kickback from PCGS

ricko

Reality says 65.... now, on the other hand, another TPG may say something else... the grading game is just a game... and if you are a speculator or flipper, naturally you play that game. If you are a collector, it does not matter. If you can grade, it matters even less. Cheers, RickO

Prethen

It's a good shot at really being a 65. Got any pictures?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

they are pretty good, regarded at about the same level as ANACS

Most common date ICG MS65 Morgans cross

ziggy29

<< <i>For example, if ICG says 65, reality says what? ( In general ) >>

About 64.

I think ICG massively overgrades from about 66+ and mildly in the 64-65 area. Below about MS-63, in general, I think they're as good as anyone.

ddbird

For moderns...pocket change.

For classics they do pretty well. I've seen some cross, some not, some upgrade.

With any of the grading companies you can find accurately graded pieces...or attractive pieces for the grade.

mozin

ICG usually does well with Classics. I don't do moderns.

dimples

I've sent 5 morgans for cross over a few years ago. all crossed at the same grade BUT these were bought from top

national dealers so they pre screened before they bought them.

Dan

mrearlygold

I personally think that anyone who sells these coins for anywhere near the same levels as a PCGS or NGC coin are not doing the right thing for their customers.

relicsncoins

I,ve cracked 3 coins and sent them to NGC.

2 morgans, both were in 64 ICG slabs. 1 came back a 63 and one came back a 64*.

1 1859 Indian in an AU55 slab, NGC BB it for inproper cleaning.

JJ

Prethen

<< <i>I have not seen more than 5% of these coins even in the realm of the grade on the holder and personally think that anyone who sells these coins for anywhere near the same levels as a PCGS or NGC coin should be arrested. >>


I doubt you're talking about classics; if so, I'd love to see the proof with a statement like that. I simply don't believe that 95% of their grading is off the mark. Lately, I've seen a number of coins in "other" holders that you consider top tier being waaaaay off the mark. It was quite ironic.

foxxze

An ICG MS65 coin should be expected to grade at least MS63 at PCGS .

TorinoCobra71

<< <i>BB? >>





Good One Claddy........

Grade all depends on the Coin........

TorinoCobra71

mrearlygold

<< <i>

<< <i>I have not seen more than 5% of these coins even in the realm of the grade on the holder and personally think that anyone who sells these coins for anywhere near the same levels as a PCGS or NGC coin should be arrested. >>


I doubt you're talking about classics; if so, I'd love to see the proof with a statement like that. I simply don't believe that 95% of their grading is off the mark. Lately, I've seen a number of coins in "other" holders that you consider top tier being waaaaay off the mark. It was quite ironic. >>



What do you call classics? What is your name so we can establish some credibility for you? You can doubt what you like. Are you a dealer? Do you sell this type of holder to your customers?

mrearlygold

<< <i>An ICG MS65 coin should be expected to grade at least MS63 at PCGS . >>



Yes, some are only overgraded 2 grades. Some are more than that.

Jcarney

<< <i>An ICG MS65 coin should be expected to grade at least MS63 at PCGS . >>

Jcarney

<< <i>

<< <i>An ICG MS65 coin should be expected to grade at least MS63 at PCGS . >>



Yes, some are only overgraded 2 grades. Some are more than that. >>



Since they're all from the same source, perhaps the person who sent them to you was a real bottom fisher who only bought when he could get a "deal". I wouldn't use 100 coins, all from the same source, to generally condemn a TPG's grading.

Prethen

<< <i>

<< <i>An ICG MS65 coin should be expected to grade at least MS63 at PCGS . >>



Yes, some are only overgraded 2 grades. Some are more than that. >>


Prove it.

barbershopper

<< <i>

<< <i>For example, if ICG says 65, reality says what? ( In general ) >>

About 64.

I think ICG massively overgrades from about 66+ and mildly in the 64-65 area. Below about MS-63, in general, I think they're as good as anyone. >>



Totally agree. They're second tier like anacs.
PCI isn't one of my favorites but I've seen mid-grade coins from them that looked on the money.
JT

ksteelheader

They're damn good with tokens and medals.

mrearlygold

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>An ICG MS65 coin should be expected to grade at least MS63 at PCGS . >>



Yes, some are only overgraded 2 grades. Some are more than that. >>


Prove it. >>



Who are you again? What's your name? You didn't answer my questions before. Why?

Prethen

My name....who cares?

I've bought and sold ICG coins with no problem and at fair prices. Yeah, they often sell at a discount, but that's pretty good when I'm on the buying end on something that's worth more when you crack it out of the holder because the seller is ignorant. Their classic grading is often right on if not a little bit on the conservative side. Do they have optimistic grades like what you'd consider the top tiers might also do...sure....they all do that.

Your awfully biased against them but offer no proof. It's easy to show 1 or 2 slabs as proof, but I'd love to see where you get your 95% statistic from.

I have one piece of advice for you. You should avoid buying anything that's in one of their slabs. Buy only PCGS slabs and rest easy that the grade is always "right". Then, life can go on for you.

mrearlygold

<< <i>My name....who cares?

I've bought and sold ICG coins with no problem and at fair prices. Yeah, they often sell at a discount, but that's pretty good when I'm on the buying end on something that's worth more when you crack it out of the holder because the seller is ignorant. Their classic grading is often right on if not a little bit on the conservative side. Do they have optimistic grades like what you'd consider the top tiers might also do...sure....they all do that.

Your awfully biased against them but offer no proof. It's easy to show 1 or 2 slabs as proof, but I'd love to see where you get your 95% statistic from.

I have one piece of advice for you. You should avoid buying anything that's in one of their slabs. Buy only PCGS slabs and rest easy that the grade is always "right". Then, life can go on for you. >>



LOL is about all I have to say to you.

Julian

There are properly graded coins and improperly graded coins in all of the TPG services holders.

Any statement without examining the coins is worthless.

ICG is not as well accepted as PCGS or NGC, but that does not make them overgraded.

Rarity

I like ICG holder because it is light and easy to hold. My Goodacre SAC is beautiful in ICG holder and I will never cross it to PCGS.

Graphix

Being somewhat new to the hobby I have seen posts about a lot of different grading companies here. From what I have read it seems the pecking order falls in at PCGS, NGC, ICG/ANACS. But I have also read posts from time to time (i suppose I can try and search if it is necessary) where people have said they were going to send coins "across the street" which I take to mean NGC as they thought they would get a better grade then sending to PCGS. I also read that people love ICG because they can pick up nice coins for very favorable discounts because of the slab they are in. I have no idea so this is all a learning experience for me as far as the grading companies go however I did find this post a while back interesting. Has anyone actually tried submitting a selection of coins to various TPGs (submitting raw each time) and recording the final results. I am sure it would be a costly for an individual but perhaps someone has?

ebaytrader

<< <i>

<< <i>For example, if ICG says 65, reality says what? ( In general ) >>

About 64.

I think ICG massively overgrades from about 66+ and mildly in the 64-65 area. Below about MS-63, in general, I think they're as good as anyone. >>




I'm of the same opinion.
Ditto that for the old ANACS.

mrearlygold

Graphix, while I would say there is nothing wrong with ICG I would also say that a lot depends on HOW they are sold and to whom they are sold.

charley

Good Evening, mrearlygold. I would be interested in any "timespan" that may be applied to your observations. Would you consider your general thoughts to apply to all graded pieces since the startup, or would your observation "improve" as it applies to more recently graded coins? I understand clearly that your commmentary is "general" in nature, and may be directed more toward the monetary aspect of our numismatic interests. Iwould ask that you consider framing any response in the context of wholesale valuation without regard to a profitable resale. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. Respectfully, John Curlis

ricko

Flippers - speculators,
Anything but graders-
Often take exception,
To a TPG perception
And their coins they are ranking
as their wallet takes a spanking,
While they merrily assume they have the best.
Still collectors keep acquiring,
and their skills are still improving,
and they end up with the truly treasured coins.

Cheers, RickO

mrearlygold

<< <i>Good Evening, mrearlygold. I would be interested in any "timespan" that may be applied to your observations. Would you consider your general thoughts to apply to all graded pieces since the startup, or would your observation "improve" as it applies to more recently graded coins? I understand clearly that your commmentary is "general" in nature, and may be directed more toward the monetary aspect of our numismatic interests. Iwould ask that you consider framing any response in the context of wholesale valuation without regard to a profitable resale. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. Respectfully, John Curlis >>



John, I have no idea of timespan. This is the first time I've looked thru a large lot of icg graded coins. My intention when I started this thread was to merely solicit credible commentary from others who collect and maybe even invest in coins . Perhaps I should have just left it at that which is what I'm going to try and do now.

charley

Thank You, Tom, for your response. I have a high level of respect for your ability, and didn't interpret your original Post to be willfull "bashing" of a TPG. You have come close to answering my humble enquiry: your ability to do so is only limited by " identification" of the timetable these coins were graded within. I assumed you had reviewed a significant number of pieces from the TPG in question. You are not known to base opinion on a hand full of coins. It is indeed unfortunate that your Post was received in an unintended manner. It could have been a very interesting academic Thread. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis

Myqqy

The only type of icg graded stuff I've looked at in number are morgans in 63-65 grades- most of the time, I think they're pretty close to the mark in their grading of this series in that range. I wouldn't trust their grading of uber high grade moderns, but most of the time I don't give a squat about uber high grade moderns...

Graphix

<< <i>John, I have no idea of timespan. This is the first time I've looked thru a large lot of icg graded coins. My intention when I started this thread was to merely solicit credible commentary from others who collect and maybe even invest in coins . Perhaps I should have just left it at that which is what I'm going to try and do now. >>



I hate to continue this but I was wondering why you received the coins? For appraisal purposes or a perspective buy. I really haven't seen you post anything bashing icg. I really think the reason these types of threads get slammed is becuase you have people with strong opinions and all too often they become personal. Again I am trying to learn as much as I can so if by chance you are purchasing these coins perhaps you can pick out 1 or 2 of the coins you feel are dramatically over graded and submit them to PCGS (it seems that popular opinion puts them #1) to cross at any grade. It would be interesting to see the results and we could get some real time data on how top tier TPGs grade differently. Even though it would be a small sample one would think that "professional" graders would be within a few points of each other not 3 or 4. It would certainly give merit to your findings and help some of us newbies out as well. I know its easy to play with other peoples money and obviously this may not be in the best interest of your business, just thought I would ask.

SilverEagles92

ICG's not bad. They're 10 steps ahead of SEGS, NTC, and other slab companies like that. Their grading may not be 100% in line with the other major TPG's, but hey, they're new. Maybe they'll do better in the future.

Until last week, I had ICG before ANACS in the ranks of top 4 TPG's. Then ANACS released the pop report... It's great. If ICG got themselves a pop report, and had a website makeover (I hate those old men at the banner on the top of their webpage) then they might spring forth again. ANACS has been around for a while though, might take a lot of effort on ICG's part.

bidask

<< <i>I personally think that anyone who sells these coins for anywhere near the same levels as a PCGS or NGC coin are not doing the right thing for their customers. >>

Come on, I understand your general question, but you really do grade the coin!?

OPA

Perhaps my results are not the norm, but I've had 5 ICG MS65 Peace $ cross over to PCGS...same grade. On the other hand< I tried to cross over 5 Kennedy half ICG proof 69 dcam to PCGS ... and none crossed over. I would suspect that their grades on the "Modern" stuff is loose.

drddm

I bought this coin in a ICG MS64 holder and cracked it out to send to PCGS. This is my first and ONLY ICG coin I have ever bought, but I do know Liberty Nickels, and so I felt fine buying this coin, especially because it had a return policy.
I thought the surfaces looked original and that the coin had great eye appeal, check out the target toning on the reverse!!!
I guess PCGS thought the same and crossed it at the same grade - MS64.
You've heard it time and time again, buy the coin, not the holder and if you know the series and can grade them fairly well, you'll have decent luck at PCGS.

CoastGuard

ICG is not new. They've been around more than 10 years. But the age of the firm matters little. It's the graders that do the work, not the corporation. If you go to their website and find out how top knotch their graders are, you will be impressed. That's why the ICG coin will grade the same as PCGS in most instances and vice versa. How do I know other than comparing the two at shows and doing cross overs? I have asked on this site for over a year for the ICG bashers to sell me their ICG 65 Morgan for the PCGS 63 price since '"they are the same." But it never happens! Since they don't put their money where their mouth is I know it is all hot air.

The PCGS coin may "bring more" in many instances at celebrity auctions but that is superior marketing prowess at work, not better technical grading. Since ICG does not allow dealers to own any part of their company in order to avoid a conflict of interest, they gain respect and independence, but lose deals on account of it.

LeeG

Cracked Out, now PR64 BN

drddm

Wow, nice 1913 Lincoln!!!

ziggy29

<< <i>The only type of icg graded stuff I've looked at in number are morgans in 63-65 grades- most of the time, I think they're pretty close to the mark in their grading of this series in that range. I wouldn't trust their grading of uber high grade moderns, but most of the time I don't give a squat about uber high grade moderns... >>

Exactly. Their grading of uber-graded moderns is, IMO, laughable. But for lower MS and circulated classics, I trust them as much as amyone out there. And that can leave some pretty good buys for me because the folks who will only buy "the right holder" don't compete with me for "the right coin."

RYK

This is the sum total of my ICG experience:

Several years ago, I purchased two ICG-graded Saints, both MS-63. Both coins were cracked out and sent raw to PCGS. One coin actually fell into the garbage can while cracking it out (it was in my rookie days ), and it came back in a 64 holder. The other came back as a 63. I have no other first-hand experience.

RotatedRainbows

<< <i>This is the sum total of my ICG experience:

Several years ago, I purchased two ICG-graded Saints, both MS-63. Both coins were cracked out and sent raw to PCGS. One coin actually fell into the garbage can while cracking it out (it was in my rookie days ), and it came back in a 64 holder. The other came back as a 63. I have no other first-hand experience. >>



Did you crack the 63 out and throw it in the garbage to see if you could upgrade that to a 64 as well???
You don't rent out the garbage can do you??

Rollerman

I've only bought one Morgan dollar (1900-O) in a ICG holder and that was because I thought it was undergraded. It was in a 62 holder, but of 6 guys (3 of which are dealers) whose opinion I respect, they all thought it was a 64 easily and one said it might have a shot at 65! I wish I could image it for the forum but alas, I can't.
The dealer at a show where I bought it said he had to have 63 bid for the coin because he was already into it that much because of the grading fee's. He thought it would come back a 64 easily also.
Pete

koynekwest

<< <i>There are properly graded coins and improperly graded coins in all of the TPG services holders.

Any statement without examining the coins is worthless.

ICG is not as well accepted as PCGS or NGC, but that does not make them overgraded. >>



I couldn't agree more. There ARE other legitimate companies other than the "Big Two." Unfortunately, the reality is that they sell at at discount-sometimes a BIG discount. It seems to me that this situation is nothing more than the old "Buy at one grade; sell at another" scheme that was so prevalent in the pre-slabbing days-just a modernized version of it. And I'm sure those that practice it know exactly what they're doing. Too many collectors believe explicitly in the number on the slab and can't-or are too lazy-to learn to grade on their own.

uofa1285

Graysheet states ICG is 'better' than any other grading firm (including NGC and PCGS) in Average grade percentage and High grade percentage...and they have held at least one of these three top categories for years...I personally disagree but I assume the Graysheet statistics are not fraudulent...

Doug