<< <i>Some people are idiots!!!! I set a snipe on a Dave Robinson 67 Philly and won it for around $7. One of the underbidders sent me this message. I will edit it for obvious reasons.
Why do you bid at the last second? I bid only against myself. I bid what I will pay. You can bid at any time, out bid me, and my bid will not change. I never understood why f**kers think they are so smart by bidding at the very end of an auction. Such a f**king fallacy by believing that will win you the auction. Look at the f**king value of the card and see what bidding at the end of the auction saved you? Not a f**king cent. God, people like you are so stupid
I am not even going to respond to it, but did send it to Ebay.
Crazy world full of crazy people. >>
I tell you, he's wrong, wrong, wrong. I started sniping on higher dollar cards and I can tell you I've won more cards and paid less in most cases than ever before. Couple that with using bigcrumbs for my BIN and cheap-o bids and I'm money ahead. I'm getting back $5-20 every payday from bigcrumbs. But the other guy is right, I do fell stupid for doing that. I mean, why would I want to win more, and spend less when I do. <shrug> silly me...
Alright guys, time to get back to some speculative football talk...lol
below is a list of QBs who were Super Bowl starters at least once, but never won the big game. My question is, IF their teams had won the Super Bowl with them at the helm, would they be in the HOF right now?
Ken Anderson- Bengals- 32,838 career yds, 4 Pro Bowls Daryle Lamonica- Raiders- 19,154 yds, 5 Pro Bowls Boomer Esiason- Bengals- 47,920 yds, 4 Pro Bowls
Earl Morrall- Colts- 20,809 yds, 2 Pro Bowls Craig Morton- Broncos AND Cowboys- 27,908 yds, 0 Pro Bowls......Lost 2 Super Bowls Ron Jaworski- Eagles- 28,190 yds, 1 Pro Bowls Billy Kilmer- Redskins- 20,845 yds, 1 Pro Bowls Stan Humphries- Chargers- 17,191 yds, 0 Pro Bowls
Joe Kapp- Vikings- 5,911 yds, 1 Pro Bowl Vince Ferragamo- Rams- 11,336 yds, 0 Pro Bowls Tony Eason- Patriots- 11,142 yds, 0 Pro Bowls David Woodley- Dolphins- 8,558 yds, 0 Pro Bowls
My take?
I think, obviously from Joe Kapp down, these were bit players and/or played very short careers and would never get in the HOF. From Earl Morral to Stan Humpries you have guys that were at least major players in the league for a long period, and having a Super Bowl ring might at least get their names mentioned as all-time great type of guys, but most likely never HOF material. The top list of Ken Anderson, Daryle Lamonica and Boomer Esiason I think would very likely be sitting in the HOF right now had they won that ONE BIG GAME they had a shot in. Anderson and Esiason both lost heartbreakers to Joe Montana in the final minutes of their Super Bowls. So literally, they watched their HOF inductions slip away as Montana drove his teams to victory against them.
Comments and opinion welcome... Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
On a similar note, I think Phil Simms would be in the HOF if he had not gotten hurt and been replaced by Jeff Hostetler when the G Men won their second Super Bowl in 1991. Obviously that means I think Simms would have taken them to the big game as well.
As for the above list, I wouldn't mind seeing Boomer get in, but he's really the only one. Anderson is somewhat intriguing, but I'd vote no.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
you may be right but it might have only gotten them a few more votes. one championship IMHO should make or break a persons HOF ticket. Then shouldnt Charles Haley be in. He has what 5 rings?? This year Robert Horry (SP?) won his 7th NBA ring, does this make him a lock snice he has more than Jordan. championships factor in but it should be slim as football is too much of a team game, though a QB has a major impact on the team. but if his defense cant stop anyone in the big game thats not his fault. i know the Anderson:Montana game was close, but they should it a few weeks ago on NFL network and the Anderson led offense stalled in the second half. There was one first a goal and they couldnt convert on four downs. Most of those were runs. If Anderson was such a great QB wouldnt they have put the ball in his hands more in the SB on the goal line??
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Haley should be in the HOF IMO, or at least get some serious consideration for it. Not only because he has the most Super Bowl rings EVER, but because he was a great player too, though he only went to 5 Pro Bowls. Someone like an Horry, though, does not belong in the HOF. I think a case could be made for Haley by using Lynn Swann as an example. Swanny is in the HOF largely because of his Super Bowl exploits. It certainly couldn't be because of his regular season stats.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
For the record the underbidder was not Dave. Funny thing if I had not won Dave would have and maybe he would have gotten the congratulatory email from this idiot.
you may be right but it might have only gotten them a few more votes. one championship IMHO should make or break a persons HOF ticket. Then shouldnt Charles Haley be in. He has what 5 rings?? This year Robert Horry (SP?) won his 7th NBA ring, does this make him a lock snice he has more than Jordan. championships factor in but it should be slim as football is too much of a team game, though a QB has a major impact on the team. but if his defense cant stop anyone in the big game thats not his fault. i know the Anderson:Montana game was close, but they should it a few weeks ago on NFL network and the Anderson led offense stalled in the second half. There was one first a goal and they couldnt convert on four downs. Most of those were runs. If Anderson was such a great QB wouldnt they have put the ball in his hands more in the SB on the goal line?? >>
Absolutely JUST a ring is not enough to be a HOFer. There are quite a few guys who HAVE won Super Bowls and still are not in the HOF. I listed all the non-winning QBs who are HOF eligible, and the top 3 are the only ones I think had a career good enough that if you added a Super Bowl Championship it would be enough to sway the voters.
In 1981, the year Ken Anderson took the Bengals to the Super Bowl he was the NFL MVP..Passed for 3,700+ yards, 29 TDs and 10 picks. In the Super Bowl that he lost he was 25-34, 300 yds, 3 TDs, 1 INT...Not only would he have had a Super Bowl Championship that season, but would have been named the Super Bowl MVP as well. He had a long outstanding career..He was in the NFL Top 10 in Passing Yards 7 times and Top 10 in TD passes 6 times. Had the Bengals won and he been named MVP of that game, combined with the rest of his career stats he would easily be in the HOF right now. He's been a HOF finalist WITHOUT the ring or Super Bowl MVP...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, Another great topic. Agree with all you said. Like Art, I too would like to see 'The Mad Bomber' get in the HOF. From 1967-1970 he was the most productive QB in Football. He threw close to 90 TD's in a three year run and those were in 14 game seasons. He also had some terrific playoff games along the way including passing for 6 TD's against the Oilers in one of them. It's too bad he played behind Jack Kemp for his first few years in Buffalo, then at the end he was being pushed by Kenny Stabler at Oakland for playing time. Pretty stiff competition.
I think Earl Morrall might be the best back-up QB ever. In the four years he was called on to be a starter for most of the year due to injuries to the starting QB, he put up big numbers. In '68 when Unitas was down most of the year he led the NFL in passing and the Colts to a 13-1 record only to lose Super Bowl 3 to the Jets. He was the MVP that year too. Then in '72 when Griese went down, he QB'd the Dolphins to a 14-0 record. I'm pretty sure he started at least 9 or 10 of those games during their incredible undefeated season. For sure never a HOF'er, but certainly among the greatest back-ups in history.
I read somewhere that during Ken Anderson's poorest seasons he had a different off. coordinator. If you look at his career numbers, he started strong, then had a few down years (diff. coordinator), then he finished pretty strong again his last years. I think he deserves HOF consideration in the future.
Would like to see Boomer Esiason get some consideration too. He put up some nice numbers over a long career.
Joe Kapp had a great, long CFL career before hitting the NFL. He'll never get in the NFL HOF, but I believe he's already in the CFL HOF.
The top three on the list maybe deserve a HOF nod sometime down the road despite not having won the 'big game', the rest probably not.
I just don't think LaMonica did it long enough. He only has 6 full seasons to his credit as a starter.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I understand that point of view, but compare his best 5 years to Namath's. Lamonica has comparable if not better peak years. Of course winning SB 3 helps Joe Willie tremendously. Lamonica has had some great playoff games himself. He won two AFL MVP's when Namath was in his supposed prime in the late 1960's. Namath won one MVP. Namath's playoff stats are average or slightly below. Not knocking Namath, just comparing the two who played in the same era.
Well you should be knocking Namath! I consider him one of the most overrated HOF'ers in any of the 4 major sports. He's in the HOF because he 'guaranteed' the Jets would beat the Colts in the Super Bowl, and they did. Big whoop. Do you know how many 'guarantees' there have been in the world of sports over the years??? Heck, why not do it in a big game. Theoretically, you have a 50/50 shot of winning. LOL.
Sorry for the rant, but I am NOT a Namath fan. If we're comparing him to Lamonica, I'd gladly have the Mad Bomber take his place in Canton.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Namath either and would gladly have the Mad Bomber as my starting QB over Namath too!
I have this great Football book that I'm sure many of the other Rookie HOF posters might also have called 'The Pro Football Chronicle'. It was published in 1990. It's 350 pages of great info of Pro Football throughout the decades. In the back they list some of the greats year by year stats and their game by game stat lines including playoffs. Lamonica is not listed, but Namath is.
Actually after doing a little research, Lamonica did have a couple of rough playoff games as well.
Although in his head to head loss to the Jets in '68 he passed for 401 yards on 20 of 47 with 1 TD and 0 Int's. He passed for 208 yards and 2 TD's in Super Bowl 2 loss to the Packers. He passed for 6 TD's in '69 playoff romp over the Oilers. Passed for 2 TD's in 40-7 route of the Oilers in the '67 AFL Championship game. Passed for 3 TD's in a 40-6 playoff win over KC in '68.
So Lamonica had some nice playoff games too.
The Raiders were 37-4-1 for a .902 winning pct. over the last three years of the AFL. They also lead the league in scoring each year Lamonica was at the helm. He passed for 89 TD's in 41 games. No one else is even close during this 3-year run.
As you can tell, I think Lamonica's accomplishments are overlooked by many. Not many years as a starter, but his peak years were great.
"he played behind Jack Kemp for his first few years in Buffalo, then at the end he was being pushed by Kenny Stabler at Oakland for playing time. Pretty stiff competition."
I think that says alot about Lamonica and the reason he only started for 6 seasons...Looking at the other HOF QB nominees from 2007 (NONE got in of course). Starter being defined as a QB who started more than half of his teams games for that season.
Ken Anderson-13 year starter Randall Cunningham-7 year starter Bernie Kosar- 7 year starter Jim Plunkett- 10 year starter Phil Simms- 11 year starter Brian Sipe- 8 year starter Ken Stabler- 11 year starter Joe Theisman- 8 year starter
Here are the modern era (Modern Era is defined as a majority of a members' career occurred after 1946) HOF QBs with less than 10 seasons as starter:
Joe Namath- 9 year starter Roger Staubach- 8 year starter Bob Waterfield- 3 year starter Steve Young- 9 year starter
Based on this, I think Lamonica moves down my "possible with a Super Bowl ring" list as well. Although, had he WON the championship and beat the Packers in Super Bowl II, he may have held his job a little longer and kept Stabler in the wings a couple more years. Waterfield is a unique case in that he played 40% of the snaps for the Rams along with his team mate Norm Van Brocklin. In a few of those seasons BOTH QBs were All-Pros and or Pro Bowlers..But Van Brocklin started the majority of the games from 1950-1952 when they were sharing duties.
Of the QBs in the first list, Simms, Plunkett and Theisman are all Super Bowl winning QBs...And none of the 3 are in the HOF.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In my mind I would LIKE to see Lamonica get in the HALL, but I know he will not. There's a lot of guys I would like to see honored but I know the only way they're getting in the HOF is with an admission ticket.
I was merely pointing out Lamonica's terrific stats over a short period.
It's amazing how many other great QB's were back-ups for many years before taking over the starting duties. Starr split QB duties for about six years before becoming the main guy in Titletown. Sonny Jurgensen rode the pine in Phily for 5 years and didn't get a chance to start until Van Brocklin retired after the '60 Championship season. Len Dawson bounced around the NFL, never being able to crack a starting QB role until he joined the Chiefs in the AFL.
So Lamonica, although not as great as these other three HOF QB's, has a lot in common with them all. They just had longer runs as starters. None of them had any great QB like Kenny Stabler's quality, pushing them at the end of their careers either, except maybe Bill Kilmer/ Theismann (for one year) pushing Jurgensen for playing time with the 'Skins.
Sometimes teams never get in a good draft position to select a quality QB either. So many teams keep using the same guy year after year even if the position is in need of upgrading. Look at the Packers, they tried Don Horn for a few games in 1969. He didn't work out so they unloaded him to Denver even though Starr was 36 years old when they did that. They then replaced Bart Starr with Scott Hunter who was terrible and the Packers suffered throughout the 1970's with terrible teams and terrible QB's. The Packers didn't get a quality guy to replace Starr until the later 1970's when Lynn Dickey (thu a trade) finally emerged. They even tried a washed John Hadl for a couple of years in '75-76.
And Len Dawson was replaced by Mike Livingston!
So my point is a lot of certain QB's longevity depends on the teams they play for and their willingness to stick with the same guy year after year when a quality replacement is not available.
<< <i> Sometimes teams never get in a good draft position to select a quality QB either. So many teams keep using the same guy year after year even if the position is in need of upgrading. Look at the Packers, they tried Don Horn for a few games in 1969. He didn't work out so they unloaded him to Denver even though Starr was 36 years old when they did that. They then replaced Bart Starr with Scott Hunter who was terrible and the Packers suffered throughout the 1970's with terrible teams and terrible QB's. The Packers didn't get a quality guy to replace Starr until the later 1970's when Lynn Dickey (thu a trade) finally emerged. They even tried a washed John Hadl for a couple of years in '75-76. >>
Then they had to wait until 1992 to get Favre through a trade. Majik was close to being there for at least a few years.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
So my point is a lot of certain QB's longevity depends on the teams they play for and their willingness to stick with the same guy year after year when a quality replacement is not available. >>
Absolutely 1000% correct...And it's not just QBs..You could say that about any player who gets to hang on to a starting job past their prime...That's why I'm not a big fan of players going into the HOF based more on longevity...I like the players like Lamonica who were GREAT for shorter periods rather than guys like say Jim Marshall who were just good for a very long time. Because most of the time, it is exactly because of the reason above....Yes, longevity is important to show that a player can be great for a sustained period and not just a flash in the pan...But that player needs to remain dominant for those years...Hangers on should not be rewarded because they found a team that would put them in the lineup simply because they could still put on a uniform...
If you want a TRUE evaluation of how dominant a players career was, take his best 5 to 6 season (in a row) stretch and compare them to others players 5 to 6 season stretches at his position over the years...
I hate to bring this up again, but that is where Art Monk's beacon of HOF hope always seems to fade...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How about another set idea along these lines of super bowl QB's.
2 sets. One for starting QB's of Super Bowl Winners and one for Starting QB's for Losers.
It's a little more obscure, but might be fun. >>
Personally I probably wouldn't collect those sets...I'm trying to limit my buying to ONLY HOFers and All-time great type players...I'm not a fan of commons really...And many of the QBs in these sets will never be HOFers or all-time greats..lol..David Woodley, Trent Dilfer, Rex Grossman...Wouldn't fit my personal collecting goals...
Would be fairly easy to put together though..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If you want a TRUE evaluation of how dominant a players career was, take his best 5 to 6 season (in a row) stretch and compare them to others players 5 to 6 season stretches at his position over the years...
Jason >>
This is exactly where 'The Mad Bomber' would fall. Check out his stats from 1967 to 1972. Not many better than him during this six year run. His Won-Loss record is off the charts too during these six years. Unfortunately, six great years at QB with nothing much else will never get you into the HOF.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Not that I'm saying he should be added to the modern set (yet), but I think Shaun Alexander is going to rebound to his healthy, All-Pro form this season. After LT2's ungodly '06 campaign, Alexander is going to be flying under the radar again after so many seasons as a TD MACHINE:
At the very least he should hopefully get the 10,000 yards needed for automatic entry into the all-time rushers set late next season.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I was thinking that we should add Andre Tippett and Randy Gradishar to the modern HOF Hopefuls set. Thoughts?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I'm kinda on the fence with both of those guys.
Tippet was a finalist last year. His first time as a finalist, not sure if maybe it wasn't just a one time push..Same could be said of Fred Dean. If we add Tippett we kinda have to add Dean as well wouldn't we? I really don't view Tippett as a HOF caliber LB..Gradishar though, I think is HOF material. This is his last season as a modern candidate so I think he's going to get a push. If he doesn't get in he becomes a Senior for 2009, and absolutely I would think he belongs on the Senior set. I guess it wouldn't hurt to have him added to the modern for a few months..lol
So I'd probably vote yes on Gradishar, but no on Tippett. Basing these strictly on what I believe there chance are of getting in.
Only problem is I OWN a Tippett RC, but not a Gradishar!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
why bother adding Gradishar if we would have to be removed after the selection of the next class. which occurs before the next set award date. that seems like a lot of useless work for the ladies that are already swamped by set requests, player set additions etc.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>I was thinking that we should add Andre Tippett and Randy Gradishar to the modern HOF Hopefuls set. Thoughts?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I'm kinda on the fence with both of those guys.
Tippet was a finalist last year. His first time as a finalist, not sure if maybe it wasn't just a one time push..Same could be said of Fred Dean. If we add Tippett we kinda have to add Dean as well wouldn't we? I really don't view Tippett as a HOF caliber LB..Gradishar though, I think is HOF material. This is his last season as a modern candidate so I think he's going to get a push. If he doesn't get in he becomes a Senior for 2009, and absolutely I would think he belongs on the Senior set. I guess it wouldn't hurt to have him added to the modern for a few months..lol
So I'd probably vote yes on Gradishar, but no on Tippett. Basing these strictly on what I believe there chance are of getting in.
Only problem is I OWN a Tippett RC, but not a Gradishar!
Jason >>
Jason,
I just happened to hit a PSA 9 Gradishar on my last submission plus have a PSA 9 Tippett and PSA 9 Dean (that I bought as a BIN for $15). I think all 3 should be added....after all, they were finalists last year. Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal.
Jason - do you want to make the request?
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
I just happened to hit a PSA 9 Gradishar on my last submission plus have a PSA 9 Tippett and PSA 9 Dean (that I bought as a BIN for $15). I think all 3 should be added....after all, they were finalists last year. Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal.
Jason - do you want to make the request?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Well, there have been alot of finalists that don't make the HOF....We have to remember our criteria for the sets..Modern set, player is definitely or likely to make the HOF. Senior, all they need to have is a possibility.
Greg, you can make the request, that way I can vote NO on Dean and Tippett.
I think the HOF Committee wanted to push pass rushers last year to get one in, and ended up with Derrick Thomas, Dent, Dean and Tippett all sitting there stealing votes from one another. I would be shocked to see Tippett or Dean get in over D. Thomas or Dent..That would just be nuts..Once Thomas and Dent get in, if Tippett and Dean are still making the final 15 at that time, I would vote them on.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Why isn't Keenan McCardell in the All Time Receivers set? Doesn't he have 800+ catches?
Also, why hasn't Peyton Manning been added to the Super Bowl MVP set yet? Is just because they gave the MVP to the wrong guy?
I assume no one has asked for them to be added? >>
800 catches-12,000 yards is automatic addition to the WR set..McCardell needs more yards. Same with Rod Smith.
Not sure about the Super Bowl set, I dont collect it. Your guess is probably the reason though.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ok. Here is the list of players who have been HOF Finalists but have not been added to either the Modern or Senior sets. Do we think (as a group) that any or all of these players need to be added?
Ken Anderson- Modern through 2011(2 time finalist) Fred Dean- Modern through 2010(1 time finalist) Beattie Feathers- Senior (1 time finalist) Willie Galimore- Senior (1 time finalist) Marshall Goldberg- Senior (1 time finalist) Randy Gradishar- Modern through 2008(1 time finalist) Rosey Grier- Senior (1 time finalist) Donnie Shell- Modern through 2012(1 time finalist) Ken Stabler- Modern through 2009 (3 time finalist) Andre Tippett- Modern through 2018(1 time finalist)
We can get a vote going here so we know which names to send to PSA for addition. PSA is still going to send out a poll to all Registred set owners to get the official vote, but we should have any idea since many of the set owners hang out here.
Honestly, I can't say any of these guys are likely or definite for Modern candidate sake. I would vote yes on Gradishar and Stabler as Senior candidates as I think each might have a pretty good shot as a Senior, but not as modern guys. No on all the rest for either set.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal. >>
I think Gradishar should be in the Hall too, but he was only a finalist once, in 2003.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal. >>
I think Gradishar should be in the Hall too, but he was only a finalist once, in 2003. >>
Shag,
You're right...he has been a top 25 semi-finalist several times, but only a finalist once.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Yes for Stabler, Anderson, Gradishar and Dean. Maybe on Tippett. We already discussed Galimore and Feathers and dismissed them. That leaves Goldberg, Grier and Shell. I'd have to do some research before commenting on them.
I still want Hadl added to the Senior list....but we probably shouldn't even go there...
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
I think we should wait to add Gradishar to the seniors and not the modern as he is unlikely to get in this year and according to Jason's stats will move to the senior list after this year. Seems like a waste of time and effort by all to add him and then have to remove him in what 6 months. He wont ever have any impact on the Modern set. This brings up another point. How easy will it be to remove a player from the Modern set if he goes to the senior list. Is this open for voting or is it easier to remove a card then to add a card?
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Jradke4 has a point. Maybe we should just add Gradishar to the senior's set now then. If he was added to the modern set he'd have to be deleted in 8 months anyway regardless. If he makes the Hall, then he gets deleted from the senior set. If not, no biggie because he's where he belongs. Just an idea.
As far as voting from the list of 10, Gradishar is the only one who gets my vote. I just don't see any of those other players getting in - at least not any time soon.
On a side note, did anyone catch the 10 Most Elusive Runners of All-Time on the NFL network? Very cool list, and very cool show. My boy Barry was # 1. It's like 7 years later now and I'm still not over him retiring early. He was just so damn fun to watch.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm fine w/ adding Gradishar directly to the senior list. If so, let's add him immediately instead of waiting until he is eligible as a senior candidate (i.e. after Feb 2008).
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Jradke4 has a point. Maybe we should just add Gradishar to the senior's set now then. If he was added to the modern set he'd have to be deleted in 8 months anyway regardless. If he makes the Hall, then he gets deleted from the senior set. If not, no biggie because he's where he belongs. Just an idea. >>
This was my reasoning for not pushing his name in the initial discussions...By the time PSA got the request sent out the poll and added the card to the modern set, we would literally have only a couple of months before he would be moved. As far as adding him to the Senior set now, he doesn't meet that criteria. He needs to be a Senior candidate first. Why not just WAIT until he either makes it or doesnt this year and then we add him to the Senior set next year. Doesn't mean you can't still collect his RC, just that all the collectors of the set wont be required to own it.
<< <i>How easy will it be to remove a player from the Modern set if he goes to the senior list. Is this open for voting or is it easier to remove a card then to add a card? >>
According to Cosetta, the tranition will be seemless. This is something that I will be tracking closely as I'm sure others will as well. Since the criteria for which cards to use for these sets is the same, it will be simply subtracting the player from the modern or senior set and adding the card and player to the HOF RC set once they are inducted.
As far as players going from the modern set to the senior set goes, it should also be automatic once the player has exhausted the 20 years of modern eligibility. Our goal was to only put players on the modern set that we think are locks or close to locks. My expectation is that any player on the modern set will never reach the stage of being a Senior candidate. Because that means they went 20 years through the voting and never got in. Therefore they probably shouldn't have been on the modern player set anyway. But in those rare cases, the fact that all of us thought highly enough of the player to have him added to the Modern set means he is probably going to be a strong Senior candidate and should automatically change over. Kuechenberg is one who will have his final year of modern eligibility in 2009. He has been SO close for the last few years (even making the final 6 a couple of years ago), I think he definitely belonged on the set. Gradishar hasn't been in the final 15 for the last 4 years, and only once before that.
Any player can be added or removed from these sets based on PSA poll voting. If someone (Greg) wants to request John Hadl for the Senior set or Joe Kapp to the Senior set, they have every right to make that request. But I would vote no on anyone I felt didn't belong on the set. And as of right now, I don't know of any CURRENT Senior candidates that i would vote YES on who aren't already on the set.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'm fine w/ adding Gradishar directly to the senior list. If so, let's add him immediately instead of waiting until he is eligible as a senior candidate (i.e. after Feb 2008).
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, he doesn't meet the set criteria yet.
"This set is comprised of senior candidates eligible for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Senior candidates are Hall of Fame eligible players whose career ended more than 25 years ago."
Patience is a virtue..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ok. Here is the list of players who have been HOF Finalists but have not been added to either the Modern or Senior sets. Do we think (as a group) that any or all of these players need to be added?
Ken Anderson- Modern through 2011(2 time finalist) Fred Dean- Modern through 2010(1 time finalist) Beattie Feathers- Senior (1 time finalist) Willie Galimore- Senior (1 time finalist) Marshall Goldberg- Senior (1 time finalist) Randy Gradishar- Modern through 2008(1 time finalist) Rosey Grier- Senior (1 time finalist) Donnie Shell- Modern through 2012(1 time finalist) Ken Stabler- Modern through 2009 (3 time finalist) Andre Tippett- Modern through 2018(1 time finalist)
We can get a vote going here so we know which names to send to PSA for addition. PSA is still going to send out a poll to all Registred set owners to get the official vote, but we should have any idea since many of the set owners hang out here.
Honestly, I can't say any of these guys are likely or definite for Modern candidate sake. I would vote yes on Gradishar and Stabler as Senior candidates as I think each might have a pretty good shot as a Senior, but not as modern guys. No on all the rest for either set.
Jason >>
I vote "No" for the Modern candidates listed. Just don't think they are very likely.
How about this. We compile more players and have some more votes but wait until after the new class is named before sending more additions to the set. This gives some time to digest names but also gives the set some time to settle before adding more cards. The set just went live a few weeks ago after long debates and now we want to add more cards already. I would say that having a once a year addition time period would make the most sense. Then again anyone can request a card and have a vote called.
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<< <i>How about this. We compile more players and have some more votes but wait until after the new class is named before sending more additions to the set. This gives some time to digest names but also gives the set some time to settle before adding more cards. The set just went live a few weeks ago after long debates and now we want to add more cards already. I would say that having a once a year addition time period would make the most sense. Then again anyone can request a card and have a vote called. >>
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Why isn't Keenan McCardell in the All Time Receivers set? Doesn't he have 800+ catches?
Also, why hasn't Peyton Manning been added to the Super Bowl MVP set yet? Is just because they gave the MVP to the wrong guy?
I assume no one has asked for them to be added? >>
800 catches-12,000 yards is automatic addition to the WR set..McCardell needs more yards. Same with Rod Smith.
Not sure about the Super Bowl set, I dont collect it. Your guess is probably the reason though.
Jason >>
My fault, I thought it was either/or got you included in the set. Michael Irvin meets neither qualification, but I assume since he's a HOF'er that got him in?
I wonder if McCardell will latch on this year. He's got 11,1xx yards, so he'd need to have a pretty good year to make it.
Alright, this is the HOF thread, sorry I derailed it there for a minute.
<< <i>I'm fine w/ adding Gradishar directly to the senior list. If so, let's add him immediately instead of waiting until he is eligible as a senior candidate (i.e. after Feb 2008).
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, he doesn't meet the set criteria yet.
"This set is comprised of senior candidates eligible for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Senior candidates are Hall of Fame eligible players whose career ended more than 25 years ago."
Patience is a virtue..lol
Jason >>
Have I ever told you how much I hate playing by the rules!
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i> My fault, I thought it was either/or got you included in the set. Michael Irvin meets neither qualification, but I assume since he's a HOF'er that got him in?
I wonder if McCardell will latch on this year. He's got 11,1xx yards, so he'd need to have a pretty good year to make it.
Alright, this is the HOF thread, sorry I derailed it there for a minute. >>
The 800/12,000 number is for automatic additions..Meaning no poll or vote required. You can still request any WR you want, but they would need majority vote by the other collectors of the set. The Rushers set is similar. 10,000 yards means the player is added without needing a poll, but guys who finish with less than 10,000 could still be added, but again would be up to the voters.
I don;t think McCardell is or ever will be a HOFer..My guess is, the 800-12,000 would be the only way he would make the set.
Josh here are the active players closest to reaching automatic adds:
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I knew that was for automatic inclusion, I just didn't realize the 12,000 yard mark was part of it. I only knew of the one criteria for the rushers set and assumed it was the same with the WR set. Not a big deal, I don't even own a McCardell rc yet.
Based on your numbers: Ahman looks to be a stretch. If he does make it, I think it will be several years yet. Which is too bad, as much as I have to loathe the Packers, he really was a good back for a while there.
Dunn, surprised he's that close already. Better try and find my upgrade to a 10 quick. He'll easily make 539 yards this year, barring injury.
Tomlinson is just a stud... No surprise there. Shaun is one good season away, probably late this year or early next season barring injury. 2000 SP Authentic would be the card there I assume?
Owens and Smith should both have those numbers by week 10 I would think. Moss, even on the Patriots is still 2 seasons away to make both criteria. He could put up the 1300 yards but no way he's getting 125 balls. At 12,000 yards though, I suppose he's worthy and could be voted in.
Holt could easily see those numbers this year, heck, 88 for 1300 is a pretty average year for that guy. I wish he got more hobby love, he's as solid as they come, and he's a big play guy but his stuff just doesn't do all that great.
Another Pro Bowl season from Moss and I would vote YES on him regardless of his stats.
I can't believe you forgot to mention MY GUY Fred Taylor!!! One of the most overlooked backs in history IMO...He will easily eclipse the 10,000 this year, probably in the first 5-6 weeks..He just renewed a long term deal with the Jags..With him sharing time with Jones-Drew he will prolong his career, and I think he will reach 12,000-13,000+ before it's all said and done....He averaged 5.0 yards per carry last season, and is FAR from done..
All that with ZERO Pro Bowls to his credit..Thats what playing for a small market team will do for you..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>Some people are idiots!!!! I set a snipe on a Dave Robinson 67 Philly and won it for around $7. One of the underbidders sent me this message. I will edit it for obvious reasons.
Why do you bid at the last second? I bid only against myself. I bid what I will pay. You can bid at any time, out bid me, and my bid will not change. I never understood why f**kers think they are so smart by bidding at the very end of an auction. Such a f**king fallacy by believing that will win you the auction. Look at the f**king value of the card and see what bidding at the end of the auction saved you? Not a f**king cent. God, people like you are so stupid
I am not even going to respond to it, but did send it to Ebay.
Crazy world full of crazy people. >>
I tell you, he's wrong, wrong, wrong. I started sniping on higher dollar cards and I can tell you I've won more cards and paid less in most cases than ever before. Couple that with using bigcrumbs for my BIN and cheap-o bids and I'm money ahead. I'm getting back $5-20 every payday from bigcrumbs. But the other guy is right, I do fell stupid for doing that. I mean, why would I want to win more, and spend less when I do. <shrug> silly me...
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DAve
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below is a list of QBs who were Super Bowl starters at least once, but never won the big game. My question is, IF their teams had won the Super Bowl with them at the helm, would they be in the HOF right now?
Ken Anderson- Bengals- 32,838 career yds, 4 Pro Bowls
Daryle Lamonica- Raiders- 19,154 yds, 5 Pro Bowls
Boomer Esiason- Bengals- 47,920 yds, 4 Pro Bowls
Earl Morrall- Colts- 20,809 yds, 2 Pro Bowls
Craig Morton- Broncos AND Cowboys- 27,908 yds, 0 Pro Bowls......Lost 2 Super Bowls
Ron Jaworski- Eagles- 28,190 yds, 1 Pro Bowls
Billy Kilmer- Redskins- 20,845 yds, 1 Pro Bowls
Stan Humphries- Chargers- 17,191 yds, 0 Pro Bowls
Joe Kapp- Vikings- 5,911 yds, 1 Pro Bowl
Vince Ferragamo- Rams- 11,336 yds, 0 Pro Bowls
Tony Eason- Patriots- 11,142 yds, 0 Pro Bowls
David Woodley- Dolphins- 8,558 yds, 0 Pro Bowls
My take?
I think, obviously from Joe Kapp down, these were bit players and/or played very short careers and would never get in the HOF. From Earl Morral to Stan Humpries you have guys that were at least major players in the league for a long period, and having a Super Bowl ring might at least get their names mentioned as all-time great type of guys, but most likely never HOF material. The top list of Ken Anderson, Daryle Lamonica and Boomer Esiason I think would very likely be sitting in the HOF right now had they won that ONE BIG GAME they had a shot in. Anderson and Esiason both lost heartbreakers to Joe Montana in the final minutes of their Super Bowls. So literally, they watched their HOF inductions slip away as Montana drove his teams to victory against them.
Comments and opinion welcome...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As for the above list, I wouldn't mind seeing Boomer get in, but he's really the only one. Anderson is somewhat intriguing, but I'd vote no.
you may be right but it might have only gotten them a few more votes. one championship IMHO should make or break a persons HOF ticket. Then shouldnt Charles Haley be in. He has what 5 rings?? This year Robert Horry (SP?) won his 7th NBA ring, does this make him a lock snice he has more than Jordan. championships factor in but it should be slim as football is too much of a team game, though a QB has a major impact on the team. but if his defense cant stop anyone in the big game thats not his fault. i know the Anderson:Montana game was close, but they should it a few weeks ago on NFL network and the Anderson led offense stalled in the second half. There was one first a goal and they couldnt convert on four downs. Most of those were runs. If Anderson was such a great QB wouldnt they have put the ball in his hands more in the SB on the goal line??
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Funny thing if I had not won Dave would have and maybe he would have gotten the congratulatory email from this idiot.
Still upset about that super bowl loss 20+ years ago
<< <i>jason,
you may be right but it might have only gotten them a few more votes. one championship IMHO should make or break a persons HOF ticket. Then shouldnt Charles Haley be in. He has what 5 rings?? This year Robert Horry (SP?) won his 7th NBA ring, does this make him a lock snice he has more than Jordan. championships factor in but it should be slim as football is too much of a team game, though a QB has a major impact on the team. but if his defense cant stop anyone in the big game thats not his fault. i know the Anderson:Montana game was close, but they should it a few weeks ago on NFL network and the Anderson led offense stalled in the second half. There was one first a goal and they couldnt convert on four downs. Most of those were runs. If Anderson was such a great QB wouldnt they have put the ball in his hands more in the SB on the goal line?? >>
Absolutely JUST a ring is not enough to be a HOFer. There are quite a few guys who HAVE won Super Bowls and still are not in the HOF. I listed all the non-winning QBs who are HOF eligible, and the top 3 are the only ones I think had a career good enough that if you added a Super Bowl Championship it would be enough to sway the voters.
In 1981, the year Ken Anderson took the Bengals to the Super Bowl he was the NFL MVP..Passed for 3,700+ yards, 29 TDs and 10 picks. In the Super Bowl that he lost he was 25-34, 300 yds, 3 TDs, 1 INT...Not only would he have had a Super Bowl Championship that season, but would have been named the Super Bowl MVP as well. He had a long outstanding career..He was in the NFL Top 10 in Passing Yards 7 times and Top 10 in TD passes 6 times. Had the Bengals won and he been named MVP of that game, combined with the rest of his career stats he would easily be in the HOF right now. He's been a HOF finalist WITHOUT the ring or Super Bowl MVP...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Another great topic. Agree with all you said. Like Art, I too would like to see 'The Mad Bomber' get in the HOF. From 1967-1970 he was the most productive QB in Football. He threw close to 90 TD's in a three year run and those were in 14 game seasons. He also had some terrific playoff games along the way including passing for 6 TD's against the Oilers in one of them. It's too bad he played behind Jack Kemp for his first few years in Buffalo, then at the end he was being pushed by Kenny Stabler at Oakland for playing time. Pretty stiff competition.
I think Earl Morrall might be the best back-up QB ever. In the four years he was called on to be a starter for most of the year due to injuries to the starting QB, he put up big numbers. In '68 when Unitas was down most of the year he led the NFL in passing and the Colts to a 13-1 record only to lose Super Bowl 3 to the Jets. He was the MVP that year too. Then in '72 when Griese went down, he QB'd the Dolphins to a 14-0 record. I'm pretty sure he started at least 9 or 10 of those games during their incredible undefeated season. For sure never a HOF'er, but certainly among the greatest back-ups in history.
I read somewhere that during Ken Anderson's poorest seasons he had a different off. coordinator. If you look at his career numbers, he started strong, then had a few down years (diff. coordinator), then he finished pretty strong again his last years. I think he deserves HOF consideration in the future.
Would like to see Boomer Esiason get some consideration too. He put up some nice numbers over a long career.
Joe Kapp had a great, long CFL career before hitting the NFL. He'll never get in the NFL HOF, but I believe he's already in the CFL HOF.
The top three on the list maybe deserve a HOF nod sometime down the road despite not having won the 'big game', the rest probably not.
Rich
Sorry for the rant, but I am NOT a Namath fan. If we're comparing him to Lamonica, I'd gladly have the Mad Bomber take his place in Canton.
I have this great Football book that I'm sure many of the other Rookie HOF posters might also have called 'The Pro Football Chronicle'. It was published in 1990. It's 350 pages of great info of Pro Football throughout the decades. In the back they list some of the greats year by year stats and their game by game stat lines including playoffs. Lamonica is not listed, but Namath is.
Here's Namath's playoff games:
1968 AFL Championship (vs. Oakland)49 att, 19 comp., 38.8 %, 266 yards, 3 TD's, 1 int. (won game 27-23 at NY)
'68 Super Bowl (vs. Colts) 28 att., 17 comp., 60.7 %, 206 yards, 0 TD's and 0 Ints. (won game 16-7)
1969 (vs. KC) 40 att., 14 comp., 35.0%, 164 yards, 0 TD's, 3 INT's (lost game 13-6 at NY)
So overall he was 2-1, not bad.
Stats-
Att: 117
Comp. 50
Pct. 42.7
Yards 636
TD's 3
Int's 4
AVG per Att. 5.43
Stat's were hardly stellar in the playoffs.
Actually after doing a little research, Lamonica did have
a couple of rough playoff games as well.
Although in his head to head loss to the Jets in '68 he passed
for 401 yards on 20 of 47 with 1 TD and 0 Int's. He passed for 208 yards and 2 TD's in Super Bowl 2 loss to the Packers. He passed for 6 TD's in '69 playoff romp over the Oilers. Passed for 2 TD's in 40-7 route of the Oilers in the '67 AFL Championship game. Passed for 3 TD's in a 40-6 playoff win over KC in '68.
So Lamonica had some nice playoff games too.
The Raiders were 37-4-1 for a .902 winning pct. over the last three years of the AFL. They also lead the league in scoring each year Lamonica was at the helm. He passed for 89 TD's in 41 games. No one else is even close during this 3-year run.
As you can tell, I think Lamonica's accomplishments are overlooked by many. Not many years as a starter, but his peak years were great.
I think that says alot about Lamonica and the reason he only started for 6 seasons...Looking at the other HOF QB nominees from 2007 (NONE got in of course). Starter being defined as a QB who started more than half of his teams games for that season.
Ken Anderson-13 year starter
Randall Cunningham-7 year starter
Bernie Kosar- 7 year starter
Jim Plunkett- 10 year starter
Phil Simms- 11 year starter
Brian Sipe- 8 year starter
Ken Stabler- 11 year starter
Joe Theisman- 8 year starter
Here are the modern era (Modern Era is defined as a majority of a members' career occurred after 1946) HOF QBs with less than 10 seasons as starter:
Joe Namath- 9 year starter
Roger Staubach- 8 year starter
Bob Waterfield- 3 year starter
Steve Young- 9 year starter
Based on this, I think Lamonica moves down my "possible with a Super Bowl ring" list as well. Although, had he WON the championship and beat the Packers in Super Bowl II, he may have held his job a little longer and kept Stabler in the wings a couple more years. Waterfield is a unique case in that he played 40% of the snaps for the Rams along with his team mate Norm Van Brocklin. In a few of those seasons BOTH QBs were All-Pros and or Pro Bowlers..But Van Brocklin started the majority of the games from 1950-1952 when they were sharing duties.
Of the QBs in the first list, Simms, Plunkett and Theisman are all Super Bowl winning QBs...And none of the 3 are in the HOF.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was merely pointing out Lamonica's terrific stats over a short period.
It's amazing how many other great QB's were back-ups for many years before taking over the starting duties. Starr split QB duties for about six years before becoming the main guy in Titletown. Sonny Jurgensen rode the pine in Phily for 5 years and didn't get a chance to start until Van Brocklin retired after the '60 Championship season. Len Dawson bounced around the NFL, never being able to crack a starting QB role until he joined the Chiefs in the AFL.
So Lamonica, although not as great as these other three HOF QB's, has a lot in common with them all. They just had longer runs as starters. None of them had any great QB like Kenny Stabler's quality, pushing them at the end of their careers either, except maybe Bill Kilmer/ Theismann (for one year) pushing Jurgensen for playing time with the 'Skins.
Sometimes teams never get in a good draft position to select a quality QB either. So many teams keep using the same guy year after year even if the position is in need of upgrading. Look at the Packers, they tried Don Horn for a few games in 1969. He didn't work out so they unloaded him to Denver even though Starr was 36 years old when they did that. They then replaced Bart Starr with Scott Hunter who was terrible and the Packers suffered throughout the 1970's with terrible teams and terrible QB's. The Packers didn't get a quality guy to replace Starr until the later 1970's when Lynn Dickey (thu a trade) finally emerged. They even tried a washed John Hadl for a couple of years in '75-76.
And Len Dawson was replaced by Mike Livingston!
So my point is a lot of certain QB's longevity depends on the teams they play for and their willingness to stick with the same guy year after year when a quality replacement is not available.
<< <i>
Sometimes teams never get in a good draft position to select a quality QB either. So many teams keep using the same guy year after year even if the position is in need of upgrading. Look at the Packers, they tried Don Horn for a few games in 1969. He didn't work out so they unloaded him to Denver even though Starr was 36 years old when they did that. They then replaced Bart Starr with Scott Hunter who was terrible and the Packers suffered throughout the 1970's with terrible teams and terrible QB's. The Packers didn't get a quality guy to replace Starr until the later 1970's when Lynn Dickey (thu a trade) finally emerged. They even tried a washed John Hadl for a couple of years in '75-76.
>>
Then they had to wait until 1992 to get Favre through a trade. Majik was close to being there for at least a few years.
Collecting:
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<< <i>
So my point is a lot of certain QB's longevity depends on the teams they play for and their willingness to stick with the same guy year after year when a quality replacement is not available. >>
Absolutely 1000% correct...And it's not just QBs..You could say that about any player who gets to hang on to a starting job past their prime...That's why I'm not a big fan of players going into the HOF based more on longevity...I like the players like Lamonica who were GREAT for shorter periods rather than guys like say Jim Marshall who were just good for a very long time. Because most of the time, it is exactly because of the reason above....Yes, longevity is important to show that a player can be great for a sustained period and not just a flash in the pan...But that player needs to remain dominant for those years...Hangers on should not be rewarded because they found a team that would put them in the lineup simply because they could still put on a uniform...
If you want a TRUE evaluation of how dominant a players career was, take his best 5 to 6 season (in a row) stretch and compare them to others players 5 to 6 season stretches at his position over the years...
I hate to bring this up again, but that is where Art Monk's beacon of HOF hope always seems to fade...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How about another set idea along these lines of super bowl QB's.
2 sets. One for starting QB's of Super Bowl Winners and one for Starting QB's for Losers.
It's a little more obscure, but might be fun.
<< <i>Hi Guys,
How about another set idea along these lines of super bowl QB's.
2 sets. One for starting QB's of Super Bowl Winners and one for Starting QB's for Losers.
It's a little more obscure, but might be fun. >>
Personally I probably wouldn't collect those sets...I'm trying to limit my buying to ONLY HOFers and All-time great type players...I'm not a fan of commons really...And many of the QBs in these sets will never be HOFers or all-time greats..lol..David Woodley, Trent Dilfer, Rex Grossman...Wouldn't fit my personal collecting goals...
Would be fairly easy to put together though..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
If you want a TRUE evaluation of how dominant a players career was, take his best 5 to 6 season (in a row) stretch and compare them to others players 5 to 6 season stretches at his position over the years...
Jason >>
This is exactly where 'The Mad Bomber' would fall. Check out his stats from 1967 to 1972. Not many better than him during this six year run. His Won-Loss record is off the charts too during these six years. Unfortunately, six great years at QB with nothing much else will never get you into the HOF.
Also, Art Monk=Charlie Joiner.
Regards,
Greg M.
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E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
| 2000 sea | 16 | 64 313 4.9 2 | 5 41 8.2 0 |
| 2001 sea | 16 | 309 1318 4.3 14 | 44 343 7.8 2 |
| 2002 sea | 16 | 295 1175 4.0 16 | 59 460 7.8 2 |
| 2003 sea | 16 | 326 1435 4.4 14 | 42 295 7.0 2 |
| 2004 sea | 16 | 353 1696 4.8 16 | 23 170 7.4 4 |
| 2005 sea | 16 | 370 1880 5.1 27 | 15 78 5.2 1 |
| 2006 sea | 10 | 252 896 3.6 7 | 12 48 4.0 0
TOTAL | 106 | 1969 8713 4.4 96 | 200 1435 7.2 11
At the very least he should hopefully get the 10,000 yards needed for automatic entry into the all-time rushers set late next season.
<< <i>I was thinking that we should add Andre Tippett and Randy Gradishar to the modern HOF Hopefuls set. Thoughts?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I'm kinda on the fence with both of those guys.
Tippet was a finalist last year. His first time as a finalist, not sure if maybe it wasn't just a one time push..Same could be said of Fred Dean. If we add Tippett we kinda have to add Dean as well wouldn't we? I really don't view Tippett as a HOF caliber LB..Gradishar though, I think is HOF material. This is his last season as a modern candidate so I think he's going to get a push. If he doesn't get in he becomes a Senior for 2009, and absolutely I would think he belongs on the Senior set. I guess it wouldn't hurt to have him added to the modern for a few months..lol
So I'd probably vote yes on Gradishar, but no on Tippett. Basing these strictly on what I believe there chance are of getting in.
Only problem is I OWN a Tippett RC, but not a Gradishar!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Why isn't Keenan McCardell in the All Time Receivers set? Doesn't he have 800+ catches?
Also, why hasn't Peyton Manning been added to the Super Bowl MVP set yet? Is just because they gave the MVP to the wrong guy?
I assume no one has asked for them to be added?
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Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>
<< <i>I was thinking that we should add Andre Tippett and Randy Gradishar to the modern HOF Hopefuls set. Thoughts?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I'm kinda on the fence with both of those guys.
Tippet was a finalist last year. His first time as a finalist, not sure if maybe it wasn't just a one time push..Same could be said of Fred Dean. If we add Tippett we kinda have to add Dean as well wouldn't we? I really don't view Tippett as a HOF caliber LB..Gradishar though, I think is HOF material. This is his last season as a modern candidate so I think he's going to get a push. If he doesn't get in he becomes a Senior for 2009, and absolutely I would think he belongs on the Senior set. I guess it wouldn't hurt to have him added to the modern for a few months..lol
So I'd probably vote yes on Gradishar, but no on Tippett. Basing these strictly on what I believe there chance are of getting in.
Only problem is I OWN a Tippett RC, but not a Gradishar!
Jason >>
Jason,
I just happened to hit a PSA 9 Gradishar on my last submission plus have a PSA 9 Tippett and PSA 9 Dean (that I bought as a BIN for $15). I think all 3 should be added....after all, they were finalists last year. Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal.
Jason - do you want to make the request?
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
Jason,
I just happened to hit a PSA 9 Gradishar on my last submission plus have a PSA 9 Tippett and PSA 9 Dean (that I bought as a BIN for $15). I think all 3 should be added....after all, they were finalists last year. Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal.
Jason - do you want to make the request?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Well, there have been alot of finalists that don't make the HOF....We have to remember our criteria for the sets..Modern set, player is definitely or likely to make the HOF. Senior, all they need to have is a possibility.
Greg, you can make the request, that way I can vote NO on Dean and Tippett.
I think the HOF Committee wanted to push pass rushers last year to get one in, and ended up with Derrick Thomas, Dent, Dean and Tippett all sitting there stealing votes from one another. I would be shocked to see Tippett or Dean get in over D. Thomas or Dent..That would just be nuts..Once Thomas and Dent get in, if Tippett and Dean are still making the final 15 at that time, I would vote them on.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Since we've got the gang here...
Why isn't Keenan McCardell in the All Time Receivers set? Doesn't he have 800+ catches?
Also, why hasn't Peyton Manning been added to the Super Bowl MVP set yet? Is just because they gave the MVP to the wrong guy?
I assume no one has asked for them to be added? >>
800 catches-12,000 yards is automatic addition to the WR set..McCardell needs more yards. Same with Rod Smith.
Not sure about the Super Bowl set, I dont collect it. Your guess is probably the reason though.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ken Anderson- Modern through 2011(2 time finalist)
Fred Dean- Modern through 2010(1 time finalist)
Beattie Feathers- Senior (1 time finalist)
Willie Galimore- Senior (1 time finalist)
Marshall Goldberg- Senior (1 time finalist)
Randy Gradishar- Modern through 2008(1 time finalist)
Rosey Grier- Senior (1 time finalist)
Donnie Shell- Modern through 2012(1 time finalist)
Ken Stabler- Modern through 2009 (3 time finalist)
Andre Tippett- Modern through 2018(1 time finalist)
We can get a vote going here so we know which names to send to PSA for addition. PSA is still going to send out a poll to all Registred set owners to get the official vote, but we should have any idea since many of the set owners hang out here.
Honestly, I can't say any of these guys are likely or definite for Modern candidate sake. I would vote yes on Gradishar and Stabler as Senior candidates as I think each might have a pretty good shot as a Senior, but not as modern guys. No on all the rest for either set.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal. >>
I think Gradishar should be in the Hall too, but he was only a finalist once, in 2003.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not to mention that Gradishar has been a finalist several times. If Gradishar isn't voted in for the class of 2008, then we'll move him to the Senior HOF Hopeful set...not a big deal. >>
I think Gradishar should be in the Hall too, but he was only a finalist once, in 2003. >>
Shag,
You're right...he has been a top 25 semi-finalist several times, but only a finalist once.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
I still want Hadl added to the Senior list....but we probably shouldn't even go there...
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
As far as voting from the list of 10, Gradishar is the only one who gets my vote. I just don't see any of those other players getting in - at least not any time soon.
On a side note, did anyone catch the 10 Most Elusive Runners of All-Time on the NFL network? Very cool list, and very cool show. My boy Barry was # 1. It's like 7 years later now and I'm still not over him retiring early.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jradke4 has a point. Maybe we should just add Gradishar to the senior's set now then. If he was added to the modern set he'd have to be deleted in 8 months anyway regardless. If he makes the Hall, then he gets deleted from the senior set. If not, no biggie because he's where he belongs. Just an idea. >>
This was my reasoning for not pushing his name in the initial discussions...By the time PSA got the request sent out the poll and added the card to the modern set, we would literally have only a couple of months before he would be moved. As far as adding him to the Senior set now, he doesn't meet that criteria. He needs to be a Senior candidate first. Why not just WAIT until he either makes it or doesnt this year and then we add him to the Senior set next year. Doesn't mean you can't still collect his RC, just that all the collectors of the set wont be required to own it.
<< <i>How easy will it be to remove a player from the Modern set if he goes to the senior list. Is this open for voting or is it easier to remove a card then to add a card? >>
According to Cosetta, the tranition will be seemless. This is something that I will be tracking closely as I'm sure others will as well. Since the criteria for which cards to use for these sets is the same, it will be simply subtracting the player from the modern or senior set and adding the card and player to the HOF RC set once they are inducted.
As far as players going from the modern set to the senior set goes, it should also be automatic once the player has exhausted the 20 years of modern eligibility. Our goal was to only put players on the modern set that we think are locks or close to locks. My expectation is that any player on the modern set will never reach the stage of being a Senior candidate. Because that means they went 20 years through the voting and never got in. Therefore they probably shouldn't have been on the modern player set anyway. But in those rare cases, the fact that all of us thought highly enough of the player to have him added to the Modern set means he is probably going to be a strong Senior candidate and should automatically change over. Kuechenberg is one who will have his final year of modern eligibility in 2009. He has been SO close for the last few years (even making the final 6 a couple of years ago), I think he definitely belonged on the set. Gradishar hasn't been in the final 15 for the last 4 years, and only once before that.
Any player can be added or removed from these sets based on PSA poll voting. If someone (Greg) wants to request John Hadl for the Senior set or Joe Kapp to the Senior set, they have every right to make that request. But I would vote no on anyone I felt didn't belong on the set. And as of right now, I don't know of any CURRENT Senior candidates that i would vote YES on who aren't already on the set.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'm fine w/ adding Gradishar directly to the senior list. If so, let's add him immediately instead of waiting until he is eligible as a senior candidate (i.e. after Feb 2008).
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, he doesn't meet the set criteria yet.
"This set is comprised of senior candidates eligible for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Senior candidates are Hall of Fame eligible players whose career ended more than 25 years ago."
Patience is a virtue..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ok. Here is the list of players who have been HOF Finalists but have not been added to either the Modern or Senior sets. Do we think (as a group) that any or all of these players need to be added?
Ken Anderson- Modern through 2011(2 time finalist)
Fred Dean- Modern through 2010(1 time finalist)
Beattie Feathers- Senior (1 time finalist)
Willie Galimore- Senior (1 time finalist)
Marshall Goldberg- Senior (1 time finalist)
Randy Gradishar- Modern through 2008(1 time finalist)
Rosey Grier- Senior (1 time finalist)
Donnie Shell- Modern through 2012(1 time finalist)
Ken Stabler- Modern through 2009 (3 time finalist)
Andre Tippett- Modern through 2018(1 time finalist)
We can get a vote going here so we know which names to send to PSA for addition. PSA is still going to send out a poll to all Registred set owners to get the official vote, but we should have any idea since many of the set owners hang out here.
Honestly, I can't say any of these guys are likely or definite for Modern candidate sake. I would vote yes on Gradishar and Stabler as Senior candidates as I think each might have a pretty good shot as a Senior, but not as modern guys. No on all the rest for either set.
Jason >>
I vote "No" for the Modern candidates listed. Just don't think they are very likely.
Abstain on the Seniors.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>How about this. We compile more players and have some more votes but wait until after the new class is named before sending more additions to the set. This gives some time to digest names but also gives the set some time to settle before adding more cards. The set just went live a few weeks ago after long debates and now we want to add more cards already. I would say that having a once a year addition time period would make the most sense. Then again anyone can request a card and have a vote called. >>
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Since we've got the gang here...
Why isn't Keenan McCardell in the All Time Receivers set? Doesn't he have 800+ catches?
Also, why hasn't Peyton Manning been added to the Super Bowl MVP set yet? Is just because they gave the MVP to the wrong guy?
I assume no one has asked for them to be added? >>
800 catches-12,000 yards is automatic addition to the WR set..McCardell needs more yards. Same with Rod Smith.
Not sure about the Super Bowl set, I dont collect it. Your guess is probably the reason though.
Jason >>
My fault, I thought it was either/or got you included in the set. Michael Irvin meets neither qualification, but I assume since he's a HOF'er that got him in?
I wonder if McCardell will latch on this year. He's got 11,1xx yards, so he'd need to have a pretty good year to make it.
Alright, this is the HOF thread, sorry I derailed it there for a minute.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I'm fine w/ adding Gradishar directly to the senior list. If so, let's add him immediately instead of waiting until he is eligible as a senior candidate (i.e. after Feb 2008).
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, he doesn't meet the set criteria yet.
"This set is comprised of senior candidates eligible for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Senior candidates are Hall of Fame eligible players whose career ended more than 25 years ago."
Patience is a virtue..lol
Jason >>
Have I ever told you how much I hate playing by the rules!
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
My fault, I thought it was either/or got you included in the set. Michael Irvin meets neither qualification, but I assume since he's a HOF'er that got him in?
I wonder if McCardell will latch on this year. He's got 11,1xx yards, so he'd need to have a pretty good year to make it.
Alright, this is the HOF thread, sorry I derailed it there for a minute.
The 800/12,000 number is for automatic additions..Meaning no poll or vote required. You can still request any WR you want, but they would need majority vote by the other collectors of the set. The Rushers set is similar. 10,000 yards means the player is added without needing a poll, but guys who finish with less than 10,000 could still be added, but again would be up to the voters.
I don;t think McCardell is or ever will be a HOFer..My guess is, the 800-12,000 would be the only way he would make the set.
Josh here are the active players closest to reaching automatic adds:
RUSHERS
Fred Taylor- 1998 SP Authentic- Needs 487 yds
Warrick Dunn- 1997 SP Authentic- Needs 539 yds
LaDanian Tomlinson- 2001 Topps Chrome- Needs 824 yds
Shaun Alexander- 2000 SP Authentic- Needs 1,287 yds
Ahman Green- 1998 SP Authentic- Needs 1,509 yds
RECEIVERS
Terrell Owens- 1996 SP- Needs 285 yds
Rod Smith- 1995 Ultra- Needs 611 yds
Keenan McCardell- 1994 Stadium Club- Needs 883 yds
Randy Moss- 1998 SP Authentic- Needs 124 rec, 1,300 yds
Torry Holt- 1999 SP Authentic- Needs 88 rec, 1,325 yds
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Based on your numbers:
Ahman looks to be a stretch. If he does make it, I think it will be several years yet. Which is too bad, as much as I have to loathe the Packers, he really was a good back for a while there.
Dunn, surprised he's that close already. Better try and find my upgrade to a 10 quick. He'll easily make 539 yards this year, barring injury.
Tomlinson is just a stud... No surprise there.
Shaun is one good season away, probably late this year or early next season barring injury. 2000 SP Authentic would be the card there I assume?
Owens and Smith should both have those numbers by week 10 I would think. Moss, even on the Patriots is still 2 seasons away to make both criteria. He could put up the 1300 yards but no way he's getting 125 balls. At 12,000 yards though, I suppose he's worthy and could be voted in.
Holt could easily see those numbers this year, heck, 88 for 1300 is a pretty average year for that guy. I wish he got more hobby love, he's as solid as they come, and he's a big play guy but his stuff just doesn't do all that great.
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BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I can't believe you forgot to mention MY GUY Fred Taylor!!! One of the most overlooked backs in history IMO...He will easily eclipse the 10,000 this year, probably in the first 5-6 weeks..He just renewed a long term deal with the Jags..With him sharing time with Jones-Drew he will prolong his career, and I think he will reach 12,000-13,000+ before it's all said and done....He averaged 5.0 yards per carry last season, and is FAR from done..
All that with ZERO Pro Bowls to his credit..Thats what playing for a small market team will do for you..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.