<< <i>An important distinction needs to be made here. First off, DBH and/or fight-FRAUD graciously edited my initial email to fight-FRAUD. The only comment I made to fight-FRAUD was that I had never had a Willie Greene refractor come back as Trimmed, which is 100% true. Numerous refractors come back failing to meet minimum size requirements. This is a problem with these cards. On their second submission, the cards are inevitably graded.
Furthermore, should I have mentioned in the auction that the card may be rejected by PSA for failure to meet minimun size requirements, when I have had 2 PSA 10s graded that were a little *shorter* than the card that was actually sold, and I have posted pictures to definitively substantiate this? ------------ probably.
That was my mistake.
What fight-FRAUD did was completely ridiculous from the beginning:
1. He initially told me that he "knew" the card was TRIMMED and how I had better refund him his money. So, with his tone, I became stubborn and said 'no way.' Keep in mind, he brought this up 6 WEEKS after he received the card, and bought a different $500 card from me. This is fishy.
2. He filed a fraud charge, provided eBay with the bogus letter from his friend, and received $131.50 - $25 = $106.50 back.
3. Not stopping there, he filed a USPS Mail Fraud charge, wrote a horribly nasty letter about me (with curse words) to his "USPS Postal Worker friend," wrote a letter to the Missouri Board for the Healing Arts about my "fraud," wrote a letter to the hospital where I work, and made a vague threat about my family in a letter to me.
4. I said, "HOLY SH!T" and refunded him his money, in full. The guy's obviously mentally unstable and people do crazy things. DBH has made light of this. DBH obviously lives alone and has nothing better to than email people such as fight-FRAUD and take the time to scan & change emails, etc. If he had a family, he might think differently.
5. In any case, I'll obviously never see the Willie Greene card again, which is fine, but kind of annoying.
6. I think one fact of the case that has been overlooked and DBH has never addressed is the fact that I have had several Willie Greenes graded by PSA that were OBVIOUSLY very short. I have posted pictures of this, which are both conclusive and undeniable. Last Friday, I received 4 PSA 9 Willie Greenes that were the same length as the one fight-FRAUD received. No one seems to want to comment on this fact.
7. To DBH: your personal slams at me are obviously substiutions for any intelligent dialogue on the matter. You have lost even more credibility here.
>>
You still haven't answered the question. Why did you sell this card on Ebay and hype it as being 'perfect in every way' instead of sending it in to PSA to get graded?
Boo, I'd be willing to wager that this particular Willie Greene had come back no less than 3 times from PSA because of not meeting their standards for grading. Otherwise it doesn't make sense not to have a $100 card that could be a $500 in a slab graded, especially if the seller sends in subs frequently.
Also, I'd be pissed if I paid $150 for a PSA 10 card that was over a mm short in the slab. Granted, I'd be upset at PSA for grading the piece of crap, so I'm not sure if the argument that you have other cards just as short in slabs takes away your responsibility to accurately describe the card's condition. Most card buyers wouldn't pay as much (or at all) for a card that has 1 mm missing, even if it happened at the factory.
Now, this all doesn't give Fight-Fraud the right to act like Michael Douglas in "Falling Down", but I'd venture to guess that just about every person on these baords would ask for a refund if they received a card that was 1 mm short. And as I said before, I suspect Fight-Fraud took an accusatory tone from the beginning, which made jmbk more inclined to be less than agreeable, which I can certainly understand.
I love how JMB pretends to be the victim when he's the one who dumped a Willie Greene refractor that was rejected by PSA multiple times on unsuspecting buyers.
He can cry all he wants, but these PSA cert numbers don't lie:
3 submissions. don't be dramatic DBH. I'm still waiting to see why you think your AWESOME PSA graded the shortest Willie Greene I've ever seen. I am still waiting on this one!!!
Here is the MAIN POINT that you and fight-FRAUD still don't understand: How many Willie Greenes were rejected because of TRIMMING? --answer: ZERO. Since my submissions are public knowledge, this is something even your intellect should be able to grasp.
jmbkb4, dont worry, you're still loved on here. In fact, you're a hero to so many on these boards. Stop crying about this and keep submitting those refractors.
<< <i>3 submissions. don't be dramatic DBH. I'm still waiting to see why you think your AWESOME PSA graded the shortest Willie Greene I've ever seen. I am still waiting on this one!!!
Here is the MAIN POINT that you and fight-FRAUD still don't understand: How many Willie Greenes were rejected because of TRIMMING? --answer: ZERO. Since my submissions are public knowledge, this is something even your intellect should be able to grasp. >>
You passed off REJECTED 1993 finest refractors to the unsuspecting buying public and called these rejects "perfect" in your auctions. I'm not sure how things work in Missouri, but around the rest of the country, that's shady at best and outright fraud at worst.
If you want to sell your rejected refractors raw, you should at least mention in your auctions these were rejected. As a buyer, I think that sort of information would be very useful in me determining my bidding price.
And when someone buys a card from you and later asks why the cards are short, you don't feed them BS like saying, "I've submitted a ton of the Willie Greenes before and got back 10s, 9s and never had a problem." That's LYING and you were stone cold busted because someone found your PSA cert trail of Willie Greene rejects.
Do us all a favor and stop pretending you're the victim here!
Stop hiding behind the "OH THEY WERE NOT TRIMMED! THEY WERE JUST REJECTED BY PSA SO THAT"S OKAY LOL!!! nonsense, because that's pure BS.
<< <i> You still haven't answered the question. Why did you sell this card on Ebay and hype it as being 'perfect in every way' instead of sending it in to PSA to get graded? >>
PSA 9s sell for $200. Raw copies were selling for $125. ??????
<< <i>Heh. Are you saying you didn't send the following e-mail?
Thx Patriot Act. >>
1. How sad you took the time to post this. Very telling.
2. I did NOT write that email. It has been graciously edited by you and/or fight-FRAUD, who has profited over $100 via his fraudulent activity and still has possession of the "trimmed card."
3. I'm curious about your obsession with me. Really strange.
<< <i> You still haven't answered the question. Why did you sell this card on Ebay and hype it as being 'perfect in every way' instead of sending it in to PSA to get graded? >>
PSA 9s sell for $200. Raw copies were selling for $125. ?????? >>
Um, OK. But I still don't understand why you wouldn't get this card graded if it was perfect in every way. Assuming it is, in fact, perfect in every way, then it should come back at least a 9, which means you make another $75 dollars less the grading fee. If it comes back a 10 you make out quite well.
You obviously sent in a bunch of other refractors recently, so why didn't you send this one in with that lot as well?
That's right, folks. In JMB's twisted little world, everyone is lying and he's the only one telling the truth.
Your pattern of making things up and accusing people of threatening you, hacking into your computer and editing your emails is quite alarming. I sure hope a psychiatric evaluation is required in Missouri before someone is allowed to practice in the field of medicine.
I personally feel this Thread should be deleted. It's stupid and not good for the Boards. The sole purpose of this thread is to impose bad publicity on one indivudual.
<< <i>I personally feel this Thread should be deleted. It's stupid and not good for the Boards. The sole purpose of this thread is to impose bad publicity on one indivudual. >>
Apparently jmbkb4 hasn't grown tired of this thread and continues to spin his web of lies and distortions. And who can really blame him. He's been a lot more successful here than he was in his emails or with eBay.
Now he claims someone has edited his emails. Took him long enough to come up with that. Did someone edit his statements to eBay as well? I don't know how his email program works but I can't edit an incoming email unless it is copied/pasted somewhere else. But I can certainly forward it to him from my incoming mail folder unedited so he can refresh his memory to what he actually said.
jmbbk4 also claims the inspection report was by a friend and is bogus. He was sent a copy of the report so he knows this is a lie. Ask him to send you a copy if interested. And while I am on friendly terms with the owner at his store that is the extent of our "friendship". If anyone cares to contact him his name is Don Knutsen and his email address is northwestsportscards@yahoo.com.
One question I'd like an answer to, just to see how he spins it, is why, after 2000+ successful eBay transactions and a near perfect FB record, did I suddenly decided to begin my criminal career with this seller? Why pick someone that egotistical and obnoxious and who has a history of accusing other eBay users of fraud?
I know the seller believes that the dispute on these boards has been over money. To me when eBay found the seller at fault and issued a partial refund that portion of this dispute was closed.
However when the seller began posting his libelous statements on a public message board, I'd had enough. I offered to send proof of his lies to anyone who requested it but had very few takers. Instead the seller has been able to post his misstatements, half-truths, and bald-faced lies almost unchallenged. As I already told the seller "...the money is not the main issue with me. The issue has always been that a person I had placed my trust in thought they could take advantage of me without consequence.".
Since the truth didn't seem to be working here I felt I had no choice but to stoop to his level and fight his lies with a few lies of my own. There is an old saying that the easiest person to con is a con man.
What jmbbk4 doesn't know, until now, is the copy of a letter I sent him addressed to a friend of mine in the Postal Inspection Service is a piece of fiction-
- I don't know anyone who works for the Postal Inspection Service.
- I never sent the letter to anyone other than the seller.
- While I am friends with a couple named Jim and Michelle he doesn't work for the Postal Inspection Service. He is an Air Traffic Controller.
- I told him I submitted a Mail Fraud report "online" but the copy I sent him was the kind you have to mail. He didn't catch the discrepancy and I never submitted either one.
- I never contacted any law enforcement officers.
- I never sent nor was I going to send any letters to his employer, his licensing board, or his Attorney General.
- What the seller knows but won't admit here is that nobody was threatened.
After all, as an astute member of these boards pointed out, who would go that far over a relatively cheap piece of cardboard. As I told the seller before but he refused to believe, the money was not the issue to me. The issue was his blatant lies. His money arrived on Saturday and was signed for by my son. It was mailed back to him today. Let the spinning begin. I'm done with it.
CONGRATULATIONS, DOCTOR*DADDY....YOU'VE BEEN PUNK'D
Again, if there is anybody still not fed up with this thread and would like copies of anything and the seller won't provide them I'll be happy to. And while I know it wasn't meant as a compliment I got a kick out of that E-SHERIFF BADGE.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
<< <i>I personally feel this Thread should be deleted. It's stupid and not good for the Boards. The sole purpose of this thread is to impose bad publicity on one indivudual. >>
There are a lot of threads here that are started with that one goal in mind. Not that this alone is a justification, but if deleting threads for this reason was a policy of PSA's we would have seen evidence of that a long time ago.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
<< <i>Apparently jmbkb4 hasn't grown tired of this thread and continues to spin his web of lies and distortions. And who can really blame him. He's been a lot more successful here than he was in his emails or with eBay.
Now he claims someone has edited his emails. Took him long enough to come up with that. Did someone edit his statements to eBay as well? I don't know how his email program works but I can't edit an incoming email unless it is copied/pasted somewhere else. But I can certainly forward it to him from my incoming mail folder unedited so he can refresh his memory to what he actually said.
jmbbk4 also claims the inspection report was by a friend and is bogus. He was sent a copy of the report so he knows this is a lie. Ask him to send you a copy if interested. And while I am on friendly terms with the owner at his store that is the extent of our "friendship". If anyone cares to contact him his name is Don Knutsen and his email address is northwestsportscards@yahoo.com.
One question I'd like an answer to, just to see how he spins it, is why, after 2000+ successful eBay transactions and a near perfect FB record, did I suddenly decided to begin my criminal career with this seller? Why pick someone that egotistical and obnoxious and who has a history of accusing other eBay users of fraud?
I know the seller believes that the dispute on these boards has been over money. To me when eBay found the seller at fault and issued a partial refund that portion of this dispute was closed.
However when the seller began posting his libelous statements on a public message board, I'd had enough. I offered to send proof of his lies to anyone who requested it but had very few takers. Instead the seller has been able to post his misstatements, half-truths, and bald-faced lies almost unchallenged. As I already told the seller "...the money is not the main issue with me. The issue has always been that a person I had placed my trust in thought they could take advantage of me without consequence.".
Since the truth didn't seem to be working here I felt I had no choice but to stoop to his level and fight his lies with a few lies of my own. There is an old saying that the easiest person to con is a con man.
What jmbbk4 doesn't know, until now, is the copy of a letter I sent him addressed to a friend of mine in the Postal Inspection Service is a piece of fiction-
- I don't know anyone who works for the Postal Inspection Service.
- I never sent the letter to anyone other than the seller.
- While I am friends with a couple named Jim and Michelle he doesn't work for the Postal Inspection Service. He is an Air Traffic Controller.
- I told him I submitted a Mail Fraud report "online" but the copy I sent him was the kind you have to mail. He didn't catch the discrepancy and I never submitted either one.
- I never contacted any law enforcement officers.
- I never sent nor was I going to send any letters to his employer, his licensing board, or his Attorney General.
- What the seller knows but won't admit here is that nobody was threatened.
After all, as an astute member of these boards pointed out, who would go that far over a relatively cheap piece of cardboard. As I told the seller before but he refused to believe, the money was not the issue to me. The issue was his blatant lies. His money arrived on Saturday and was signed for by my son. It was mailed back to him today. Let the spinning begin. I'm done with it.
CONGRATULATIONS, DOCTOR*DADDY....YOU'VE BEEN PUNK'D
Again, if there is anybody still not fed up with this thread and would like copies of anything and the seller won't provide them I'll be happy to. And while I know it wasn't meant as a compliment I got a kick out of that E-SHERIFF BADGE. >>
Now fight-fraud admits that he has been lying to us this entire time. Unbelievable.
Boo, Don't you know this is a thread where those that are involved only answer questions that they have believable answers to that only paint them in a good light, and glaze over the questions that will make them look bad?
<< <i>Boo, Don't you know this is a thread where those that are involved only answer questions that they have believable answers to that only paint them in a good light, and glaze over the questions that will make them look bad?
Lee >>
I've asked 2 or 3 times why he didn't send the card in question into PSA. The silence is deafening...
Me thinks he's not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Questions left unanswered that have been asked several times:
- Why, if he feels nothing is wrong with the Willie Greene he sold raw, has jmbk not submitted this card to PSA and make an extra $100 if it gets a 9? Surely it would have been easy to include it in one of his last two submissions.
- Why has jmbk not addressed the fact that he's had several Willie Greene's and others come back from PSA because they have not met the minimum size requirements, and why did he lie about saying he never had a problem with any Willie Greenes when he's had several rejected?
- Why has DBH not addressed the fact that there's a Willie Greene that's over 1 mm short that has made it into a PSA slab?
- Why does DBH care so much about making jmbk look bad?
- Why is Fight-Fraud a psychotic lunatic?
- Why am I still following this thread?
Would the peoploe involved like to answer these questions, or should we just go about playing politician?
I think JMB is doing a swell job of making himself look bad as it is. I've always thought of him as a phony and someone who can't be trusted. It turns out I was 100% right.
Both are at fault. But.......refund money-get card back-and move on.
I am sure PSA grades the short Willie Greene, but not all the time.
Just because some of them have graded and some haven't, don't make blanketing statements like you've never had problem with Willie Greene. Yes, you got some graded, you had some that didn't make it. Don't 'leave out' information. That is what Hurt is saying. I don't think he is disputing that PSA has graded short ones. None of us are. We saw the pictures. But...there is proof that some of the Greene's came back too short.
Bottom line...if you are forthcoming and give the buyer a refund it is all avoided.
Trying to complete: 2000 Bowman Chrome 2002 Topps Heritage NAP 2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics 2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
<< <i>Questions left unanswered that have been asked several times:
- Why, if he feels nothing is wrong with the Willie Greene he sold raw, has jmbk not submitted this card to PSA and make an extra $100 if it gets a 9? Surely it would have been easy to include it in one of his last two submissions.
- Why has jmbk not addressed the fact that he's had several Willie Greene's and others come back from PSA because they have not met the minimum size requirements, and why did he lie about saying he never had a problem with any Willie Greenes when he's had several rejected?
- Why has DBH not addressed the fact that there's a Willie Greene that's over 1 mm short that has made it into a PSA slab?
- Why does DBH care so much about making jmbk look bad?
- Why is Fight-Fraud a psychotic lunatic?
- Why am I still following this thread?
Would the peoploe involved like to answer these questions, or should we just go about playing politician?
Lee >>
1./2. PSA grading fees are expensive; I'm poor. I sold some raw ones. I am sure DBH can address you to other raw auctions I have sold, most notably, 1993 Refractors of Ken Griffey Jr.. I have sold several raw on eBay for as much as $700. I know for a fact that at least 2 have come back BGS 9.5 and at least 1 has been graded PSA 10. eBay ID dimmcollectibles has bought several from me on eBay. Feel free to email him (Dan) if you think I'm a "bald face liar." I do not call having my grading fees returned a "problem" with Willie Greene, and I still don't. I simply resubmit and move on. Doesn't cost me anything. Keep in mind that my "never had a problem with a Willie Greene" is taken entirely out of context: This was my statement AFTER fight-FRAUD told me that he 'knew' the card was trimmed and that I was the one that trimmed it. As you know, DBH carefully trimmed and edited the email nicely.
3. DBH is jealous because I have compiled a very nice collection of 1993 Refractors in very high grades and have been able to do quite well on eBay. He got out during one of the "lows" in terms of pricing and now he's bitter. He obsessively checks the auctions on eBay, seriously. Anyone who even passively reads these boards know that he is often present to offer some idiotic "insight" onto nearly every one of my posts for the past 18 months or so, even before the "Willie Greene Scandal." There's certainly some psychopathology here, but I've lost interest.
And there you go again, pretending to be a big shot and thinking the world is jealous of you when they just can't stand because you're a pathological liar and an obnoxious braggart to boot.
If you're such a Mr. Mint or Bill Mastro, why the hell are you trying to rip someone off a $100 purchase? Why do you lie about such a small sum when you're supposedly rolling in a Lamborghini and burning up $50 bills to light your cigars?
The fact is, you're the one that needs his ego stroked to compensate for obvious short comings in your personal life. If you're not constantly trying to impress others with unsolicited information about how you supposedly sold refractor X for $4,000, you're saying the reason they're not impressed with your claims is because they MUST be jealous.
I love how you tell others they must've sold too low on 1993 refractors when the market for them has now fallen through the floor. You don't even know what cards I bought and sold and you're telling me my business? This from a person who started buying 1993 refractors just a year and a half ago? If that doesn't speak for how ignorant you are, I don't know what will.
<< <i>...PSA grading fees are expensive; I'm poor....
...I have compiled a very nice collection of 1993 Refractors in very high grades and have been able to do quite well....
is this contradicting??? >>
Yes. And clearly it's BS. So what-- he had money to get 25 of these refractors graded last month, but couldn't cough up the extra $10 or whatever for the 26th one? Puhleeze.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Boo, Not to pick on you, but exactly what answer to your question wouldn't be BS? If a person regularly submits cards to PSA, and regularly buys and sells cards on ebay, and honestly believes those cards to be "perfect", there's absolutely no sane reason why they wouldn't submit.
Objection your honor, consel is leading the witness.
<< <i>Boo, Not to pick on you, but exactly what answer to your question wouldn't be BS? If a person regularly submits cards to PSA, and regularly buys and sells cards on ebay, and honestly believes those cards to be "perfect", there's absolutely no sane reason why they wouldn't submit.
Objection your honor, consel is leading the witness.
Overruled, I'll allow it.
Dammit.
Lee >>
I think a fair (and probably honest) answer would be 'I submitted this card multiple times couldn't get it slabbed. It kept coming back min size req, so I figured it was a mint card that was simply undersized, and put it on Ebay without mentioning the size issue since I figured it would affect the hammer price'.
Sure it's an honest answer, but would you bid on the card if he said it? I mean I guess I stand corrected because it wouldn't be a BS answer, but then he looks like an a-hole if he admittedly says he didn't mention the card being rejected multiple times and the card being short because he wanted to get more money for the card.
His whole reason for coming here and defending himself is to say he didn't do anything wrong- in fact, up to this point he hasn't made one statement acknowledging his own error, which is pretty astonishing considering the fact that we all know why he didn't mention the fact that there's more than a millimeter missing from a card and that it has been rejected, and that he's arguing his innocence to a bunch of people who are condition hounds and see through exactly what he did. Furthermore, not mentioning the shortness in his ebay listing is the equivalent to not mentioning a surface wrinkle or if the back is miscut. Just because it was cut that way in the factory, doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to the condition of the card. Buyers have a right to know the condition of the thing they're bidding on, and jmbk intentionally held back information that clearly would've hurt the final price.
Luckily for jmbk, fight-fraud comes off as a complete psycho and it's hard to believe anything he says. If it were you or I, boo, that bought this card, I think it would be more of a jmbk bbq 'round these here parts.
For those of you tired of reading this whole convo here it is in its simplest form.
JMBK: You know how I know you're gay? Fight Fraud: How? How do you know I'm gay? JMBK: Because you macramed yourself a pair of jean shorts. Fight Fraud: You know how I know you're gay? You just told me you're not sleeping with women any more. JMBK: You know how I know that you're gay? Fight Fraud: How? Cuz you're gay? and you can tell who other gay people are. JMBK: You know how I know you're gay? Fight Fraud: How? JMBK: You like Coldplay.
Trying to complete: 2000 Bowman Chrome 2002 Topps Heritage NAP 2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics 2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
<< <i>Sure it's an honest answer, but would you bid on the card if he said it? I mean I guess I stand corrected because it wouldn't be a BS answer, but then he looks like an a-hole if he admittedly says he didn't mention the card being rejected multiple times and the card being short because he wanted to get more money for the card.
His whole reason for coming here and defending himself is to say he didn't do anything wrong- in fact, up to this point he hasn't made one statement acknowledging his own error, which is pretty astonishing considering the fact that we all know why he didn't mention the fact that there's more than a millimeter missing from a card and that it has been rejected, and that he's arguing his innocence to a bunch of people who are condition hounds and see through exactly what he did. Furthermore, not mentioning the shortness in his ebay listing is the equivalent to not mentioning a surface wrinkle or if the back is miscut. Just because it was cut that way in the factory, doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to the condition of the card. Buyers have a right to know the condition of the thing they're bidding on, and jmbk intentionally held back information that clearly would've hurt the final price.
Luckily for jmbk, fight-fraud comes off as a complete psycho and it's hard to believe anything he says. If it were you or I, boo, that bought this card, I think it would be more of a jmbk bbq 'round these here parts.
Lee >>
Lee,
I think we may be talking over each other's heads.
What I'm saying is this (and I'm not arguing that you disagree with me, although maybe you do). First, I think it's fine to sell an undersized card and not announce it in the auction (a trimmed card would be a different story). However, if you're going to do that you can't say it's 'perfect in every way', because, well, it isn't. But even ignoring that, if you do sell it and the buyer calls you on it then IMO you're obligated to refund the guy his money. To paraphrase Emilio Estevez' dad in The Breakfast Club', 'Guys f**k around. But you got caught, sport." That the original seller didn't just acknowledge the fact that he couldn't sneak this card past the buyer and refund his money is unethical, because the card was NOT as described in the auction description.
So there's that. But then, once this whole debacle comes to light on the boards, it's REALLY shameless to come on here and act like you did nothing wrong. So if the original seller is going to strut around here and call fight-fraud a lunatic then he ought to come clean with his role in this ugly little three act play-- which, I might add, is a considerable role indeed.
The fact- and it is a fact-- is that jmkb lied in his auction description about the card's condition, and when he was called on it by fight fraud he didn't try to make it right. Instead he spins some line about how the card should have no prob. getting through PSA, which is a lie stacked on top of the original lie, since we know that if it really was 'perfect in every way' he would have submitted it himself. Whatever fight fraud's role was in escalating the situation is secondary to the fact that none of this would have transpired if the original seller hadn't acted like a gonad in the first place.
And anyway, I can sympathise with fight fraud to an extent. Does he have some anger management issues? I'll concede that. Did he get a little carried away? Yeah, probably. But really, I can see how a participant in this hobby could get sick of all these penny-ante shenanigans at some point and go completely over the top. If you're a baseball card collector the odds are extraordinarily high that you've had the proverbial 'telephone pole wrapped in barb wire' rammed up your posterior sans lubricant more times then you can count, and at some point you have lash out at the next joker who tries to violate you. Fight fraud probably isn't trying to just 'get back' at jkmb, but also trying to exact some vengeance against every other overweight, socially maladjusted card dealer that's ever given him the short end of a deal. You can argue that he could have handled it differently, but I think we can all empathise with the sentiment behind his actions.
Also, is there something about Coldplay that I don't know about? I like that song 'Clocks', although I'm reasonably sure I'm not homosexual....
I think you nailed it! Just by judging what is in front of me, I came up with the same conclusion. The ebay auction should have stated that this card was rejected by PSA for min size requirements, although many others like it will eventually get slabbed.
That is the problem with factory cut short cards. They have that possibility of getting rejected even though they are perfect in every other way.
Fight-Fraud cashed in the check that JMB sent? I thought Fight-Fraud was going to send the check back. There is a huge difference between a card being trimmed and a card that does not meet min size requirements. Does one pay grading fees if a card comes back not meeting min size requirements? If so, fight-fraud should have submitted it to PSA instead of relying on this elusive friend.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
Penny-ante shenanigans? 'telephone pole wrapped in barb wire' rammed up your posterior sans lubricant more times then you can count? reasonably sure I'm not homosexual.... ?
I don't know Boo!
Just kidding. Thought I would have a little fun on here (quotes from the 40 Year Old Virgin) since these two will obviously drag this on for another month.
And I hate to admit, I like Coldplay too. 'The Scientist' rocks!
Trying to complete: 2000 Bowman Chrome 2002 Topps Heritage NAP 2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics 2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
I think its impassioned threads like these that can really get the best out of you. Your last post above was really well written.
I can sympathize with fight-fraud too. I mean, even in iconic figures such as Batman, we have a guy that becomes a vigilante to exact revenge on behalf of his parents and then some. A psycho to some extent, but still with a lot of good in him. Fight-Fraud has probably seen his share of being screwed and decided he was not going to take it anymore. JMB was not totally innocent in this either. For fight-fraud to have used the ruse of claiming to write to the post master and licensing board of jmb's profession is not really over the line in that context. Everyone has a right to write a letter as long as its not libelious.
If a medical doctor sold you his old Mercedes because he wanted a newer model and lied about its condition in various ways, not only would most people be upset of getting shafted, but it stings even more because you are purchasing from someone that society upholds to a different set of standards, especially ethical standards. If a person lies, cheats and rips people off in one arena, it's going to transcend in other parts of a person's life too. I know I wouldn't want to go to a doctor that had to rip someone off just to sell his car. Even though it was not medically related, we are talking about ethics here and people need to know if their doctor is ethical or not.
I would buy cards from MorrellMan and Stone in a heartbeat because of the honesty and ethics they have demonstrated to me in other arenas of life.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
<< <i>Penny-ante shenanigans? 'telephone pole wrapped in barb wire' rammed up your posterior sans lubricant more times then you can count? reasonably sure I'm not homosexual.... ?
I don't know Boo!
Just kidding. Thought I would have a little fun on here (quotes from the 40 Year Old Virgin) since these two will obviously drag this on for another month.
And I hate to admit, I like Coldplay too. 'The Scientist' rocks! >>
One thing I love about being 34 years old is that I have no pretentions of being 'cool' anymore, so if I hear something I like I can shamelessly blast it with the windows down in my '96 Camry without caring in the least what the little 19 year old hotpants in the '04 Mustang next to me at the stoplight thinks of my musical taste.
I also like Kelly Clarkson's 'Miss Independant', the Cris Brown song ('Run it,' maybe?) and a slow song by Savage Garden that has a line about 'running to you in the mountains'. Actually, the list is considerably longer than that, but we'll stop there for now.... and lest you get TOO concerned about my bedroom proclivities, let me tell you that the last concert I went to was a BLS show
I think you nailed it! Just by judging what is in front of me, I came up with the same conclusion. The ebay auction should have stated that this card was rejected by PSA for min size requirements, although many others like it will eventually get slabbed.
That is the problem with factory cut short cards. They have that possibility of getting rejected even though they are perfect in every other way.
Fight-Fraud cashed in the check that JMB sent? I thought Fight-Fraud was going to send the check back. There is a huge difference between a card being trimmed and a card that does not meet min size requirements. Does one pay grading fees if a card comes back not meeting min size requirements? If so, fight-fraud should have submitted it to PSA instead of relying on this elusive friend. >>
Yeah, the 'mystery authenticator' is a bit strange. One quick round-way trip to Newport Beach with that card would have saved fight-fraud some time and headaches.
In the final analysis I can see why jkmb set up his auction the way he did (it's tough to put text in an auction description that you know will cost you money, so even if this is an ethical shortcoming I think it's probably a small one), but I can also see why fight-fraud flipped out when he realized jkmb had stuck him with a short card.
1. Wow - just spent a half hour or so reading through this thread, and my head is spinning 2. Seems to me there has been some unsavory behavior by both of the principals in this affair. Lying/misrepresenting the truth is never good. Probably should have been a refund from the get-go, but that has been stated many times already. In hindsight, I'm sure jmkb would concur. 3. I know zip about the allure and rarity of some of these '93 refractors, but I sure would love to get my mitts on a 9 or 10 #6 Brett Butler! 4. Coldplay - ugh!
Comments
<< <i>An important distinction needs to be made here. First off, DBH and/or fight-FRAUD graciously edited my initial email to fight-FRAUD. The only comment I made to fight-FRAUD was that I had never had a Willie Greene refractor come back as Trimmed, which is 100% true. Numerous refractors come back failing to meet minimum size requirements. This is a problem with these cards. On their second submission, the cards are inevitably graded.
Furthermore, should I have mentioned in the auction that the card may be rejected by PSA for failure to meet minimun size requirements, when I have had 2 PSA 10s graded that were a little *shorter* than the card that was actually sold, and I have posted pictures to definitively substantiate this? ------------ probably.
That was my mistake.
What fight-FRAUD did was completely ridiculous from the beginning:
1. He initially told me that he "knew" the card was TRIMMED and how I had better refund him his money. So, with his tone, I became stubborn and said 'no way.' Keep in mind, he brought this up 6 WEEKS after he received the card, and bought a different $500 card from me. This is fishy.
2. He filed a fraud charge, provided eBay with the bogus letter from his friend, and received $131.50 - $25 = $106.50 back.
3. Not stopping there, he filed a USPS Mail Fraud charge, wrote a horribly nasty letter about me (with curse words) to his "USPS Postal Worker friend," wrote a letter to the Missouri Board for the Healing Arts about my "fraud," wrote a letter to the hospital where I work, and made a vague threat about my family in a letter to me.
4. I said, "HOLY SH!T" and refunded him his money, in full. The guy's obviously mentally unstable and people do crazy things. DBH has made light of this. DBH obviously lives alone and has nothing better to than email people such as fight-FRAUD and take the time to scan & change emails, etc. If he had a family, he might think differently.
5. In any case, I'll obviously never see the Willie Greene card again, which is fine, but kind of annoying.
6. I think one fact of the case that has been overlooked and DBH has never addressed is the fact that I have had several Willie Greenes graded by PSA that were OBVIOUSLY very short. I have posted pictures of this, which are both conclusive and undeniable. Last Friday, I received 4 PSA 9 Willie Greenes that were the same length as the one fight-FRAUD received. No one seems to want to comment on this fact.
7. To DBH: your personal slams at me are obviously substiutions for any intelligent dialogue on the matter. You have lost even more credibility here.
You still haven't answered the question. Why did you sell this card on Ebay and hype it as being 'perfect in every way' instead of sending it in to PSA to get graded?
<< <i> In my opinion, the future is on the side of the '93 refractor not the older bowman and topps cards some of you are so in love with >>
jgarci
About the same future as dot-coms?
mike
I'd be willing to wager that this particular Willie Greene had come back no less than 3 times from PSA because of not meeting their standards for grading. Otherwise it doesn't make sense not to have a $100 card that could be a $500 in a slab graded, especially if the seller sends in subs frequently.
Also, I'd be pissed if I paid $150 for a PSA 10 card that was over a mm short in the slab. Granted, I'd be upset at PSA for grading the piece of crap, so I'm not sure if the argument that you have other cards just as short in slabs takes away your responsibility to accurately describe the card's condition. Most card buyers wouldn't pay as much (or at all) for a card that has 1 mm missing, even if it happened at the factory.
Now, this all doesn't give Fight-Fraud the right to act like Michael Douglas in "Falling Down", but I'd venture to guess that just about every person on these baords would ask for a refund if they received a card that was 1 mm short. And as I said before, I suspect Fight-Fraud took an accusatory tone from the beginning, which made jmbk more inclined to be less than agreeable, which I can certainly understand.
Lee
He can cry all he wants, but these PSA cert numbers don't lie:
31685075
31685076
31685077
31685078
31685070
06370269
06370270
06370271
06370273
06370274
07134771
07134772
07134773
07134788
07134789
07134790
07134791
07134793
07134794
07164718
07164719
31685063
31685064
We all know when he sold that Willie Greene refractor raw.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Here is the MAIN POINT that you and fight-FRAUD still don't understand: How many Willie Greenes were rejected because of TRIMMING? --answer: ZERO. Since my submissions are public knowledge, this is something even your intellect should be able to grasp.
<< <i>3 submissions. don't be dramatic DBH. I'm still waiting to see why you think your AWESOME PSA graded the shortest Willie Greene I've ever seen. I am still waiting on this one!!!
Here is the MAIN POINT that you and fight-FRAUD still don't understand: How many Willie Greenes were rejected because of TRIMMING? --answer: ZERO. Since my submissions are public knowledge, this is something even your intellect should be able to grasp.
You passed off REJECTED 1993 finest refractors to the unsuspecting buying public and called these rejects "perfect" in your auctions. I'm not sure how things work in Missouri, but around the rest of the country, that's shady at best and outright fraud at worst.
If you want to sell your rejected refractors raw, you should at least mention in your auctions these were rejected. As a buyer, I think that sort of information would be very useful in me determining my bidding price.
And when someone buys a card from you and later asks why the cards are short, you don't feed them BS like saying, "I've submitted a ton of the Willie Greenes before and got back 10s, 9s and never had a problem." That's LYING and you were stone cold busted because someone found your PSA cert trail of Willie Greene rejects.
Do us all a favor and stop pretending you're the victim here!
Stop hiding behind the "OH THEY WERE NOT TRIMMED! THEY WERE JUST REJECTED BY PSA SO THAT"S OKAY LOL!!! nonsense, because that's pure BS.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
So, I assume it was YOU who fraudulently changed my email before posting on these boards? You sure seem to have the quote down perfectly.
I hope I don't lose you as a customer!
Thx Patriot Act.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
You still haven't answered the question. Why did you sell this card on Ebay and hype it as being 'perfect in every way' instead of sending it in to PSA to get graded? >>
PSA 9s sell for $200. Raw copies were selling for $125. ??????
<< <i>Heh. Are you saying you didn't send the following e-mail?
Thx Patriot Act.
1. How sad you took the time to post this. Very telling.
2. I did NOT write that email. It has been graciously edited by you and/or fight-FRAUD, who has profited over $100 via his fraudulent activity and still has possession of the "trimmed card."
3. I'm curious about your obsession with me. Really strange.
<< <i>
<< <i>
You still haven't answered the question. Why did you sell this card on Ebay and hype it as being 'perfect in every way' instead of sending it in to PSA to get graded? >>
PSA 9s sell for $200. Raw copies were selling for $125. ?????? >>
Um, OK. But I still don't understand why you wouldn't get this card graded if it was perfect in every way. Assuming it is, in fact, perfect in every way, then it should come back at least a 9, which means you make another $75 dollars less the grading fee. If it comes back a 10 you make out quite well.
You obviously sent in a bunch of other refractors recently, so why didn't you send this one in with that lot as well?
Your pattern of making things up and accusing people of threatening you, hacking into your computer and editing your emails is quite alarming. I sure hope a psychiatric evaluation is required in Missouri before someone is allowed to practice in the field of medicine.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>I personally feel this Thread should be deleted. It's stupid and not good for the Boards. The sole purpose of this thread is to impose bad publicity on one indivudual. >>
At this point...
I'm not sure who?
and distortions. And who can really blame him. He's been a lot more successful here than
he was in his emails or with eBay.
Now he claims someone has edited his emails. Took him long enough to come up with
that. Did someone edit his statements to eBay as well? I don't know how his email
program works but I can't edit an incoming email unless it is copied/pasted somewhere
else. But I can certainly forward it to him from my incoming mail folder unedited so he
can refresh his memory to what he actually said.
jmbbk4 also claims the inspection report was by a friend and is bogus. He was sent a copy
of the report so he knows this is a lie. Ask him to send you a copy if interested. And while
I am on friendly terms with the owner at his store that is the extent of our "friendship". If
anyone cares to contact him his name is Don Knutsen and his email address is northwestsportscards@yahoo.com.
One question I'd like an answer to, just to see how he spins it, is why, after 2000+
successful eBay transactions and a near perfect FB record, did I suddenly decided to begin
my criminal career with this seller? Why pick someone that egotistical and obnoxious
and who has a history of accusing other eBay users of fraud?
I know the seller believes that the dispute on these boards has been over money. To me
when eBay found the seller at fault and issued a partial refund that portion of this dispute
was closed.
However when the seller began posting his libelous statements on a public message board,
I'd had enough. I offered to send proof of his lies to anyone who requested it but had very
few takers. Instead the seller has been able to post his misstatements, half-truths, and
bald-faced lies almost unchallenged. As I already told the seller "...the money is not the
main issue with me. The issue has always been that a person I had placed my trust in
thought they could take advantage of me without consequence.".
Since the truth didn't seem to be working here I felt I had no choice but to stoop to his level
and fight his lies with a few lies of my own. There is an old saying that the easiest person
to con is a con man.
What jmbbk4 doesn't know, until now, is the copy of a letter I sent him addressed to a friend
of mine in the Postal Inspection Service is a piece of fiction-
- I don't know anyone who works for the Postal Inspection Service.
- I never sent the letter to anyone other than the seller.
- While I am friends with a couple named Jim and Michelle he doesn't work for the Postal
Inspection Service. He is an Air Traffic Controller.
- I told him I submitted a Mail Fraud report "online" but the copy I sent him was the kind
you have to mail. He didn't catch the discrepancy and I never submitted either one.
- I never contacted any law enforcement officers.
- I never sent nor was I going to send any letters to his employer, his licensing board, or his
Attorney General.
- What the seller knows but won't admit here is that nobody was threatened.
After all, as an astute member of these boards pointed out, who would go that far over a
relatively cheap piece of cardboard. As I told the seller before but he refused to believe,
the money was not the issue to me. The issue was his blatant lies. His money arrived
on Saturday and was signed for by my son. It was mailed back to him today.
Let the spinning begin. I'm done with it.
CONGRATULATIONS, DOCTOR*DADDY....YOU'VE BEEN PUNK'D
Again, if there is anybody still not fed up with this thread and would like copies of anything
and the seller won't provide them I'll be happy to. And while I know it wasn't meant as a
compliment I got a kick out of that E-SHERIFF BADGE.
Deadman's Registry Sets
<< <i>I personally feel this Thread should be deleted. It's stupid and not good for the Boards. The sole purpose of this thread is to impose bad publicity on one indivudual. >>
There are a lot of threads here that are started with that one goal in mind. Not that this alone is a justification, but if deleting threads for this reason was a policy of PSA's we would have seen evidence of that a long time ago.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>Apparently jmbkb4 hasn't grown tired of this thread and continues to spin his web of lies
and distortions. And who can really blame him. He's been a lot more successful here than
he was in his emails or with eBay.
Now he claims someone has edited his emails. Took him long enough to come up with
that. Did someone edit his statements to eBay as well? I don't know how his email
program works but I can't edit an incoming email unless it is copied/pasted somewhere
else. But I can certainly forward it to him from my incoming mail folder unedited so he
can refresh his memory to what he actually said.
jmbbk4 also claims the inspection report was by a friend and is bogus. He was sent a copy
of the report so he knows this is a lie. Ask him to send you a copy if interested. And while
I am on friendly terms with the owner at his store that is the extent of our "friendship". If
anyone cares to contact him his name is Don Knutsen and his email address is northwestsportscards@yahoo.com.
One question I'd like an answer to, just to see how he spins it, is why, after 2000+
successful eBay transactions and a near perfect FB record, did I suddenly decided to begin
my criminal career with this seller? Why pick someone that egotistical and obnoxious
and who has a history of accusing other eBay users of fraud?
I know the seller believes that the dispute on these boards has been over money. To me
when eBay found the seller at fault and issued a partial refund that portion of this dispute
was closed.
However when the seller began posting his libelous statements on a public message board,
I'd had enough. I offered to send proof of his lies to anyone who requested it but had very
few takers. Instead the seller has been able to post his misstatements, half-truths, and
bald-faced lies almost unchallenged. As I already told the seller "...the money is not the
main issue with me. The issue has always been that a person I had placed my trust in
thought they could take advantage of me without consequence.".
Since the truth didn't seem to be working here I felt I had no choice but to stoop to his level
and fight his lies with a few lies of my own. There is an old saying that the easiest person
to con is a con man.
What jmbbk4 doesn't know, until now, is the copy of a letter I sent him addressed to a friend
of mine in the Postal Inspection Service is a piece of fiction-
- I don't know anyone who works for the Postal Inspection Service.
- I never sent the letter to anyone other than the seller.
- While I am friends with a couple named Jim and Michelle he doesn't work for the Postal
Inspection Service. He is an Air Traffic Controller.
- I told him I submitted a Mail Fraud report "online" but the copy I sent him was the kind
you have to mail. He didn't catch the discrepancy and I never submitted either one.
- I never contacted any law enforcement officers.
- I never sent nor was I going to send any letters to his employer, his licensing board, or his
Attorney General.
- What the seller knows but won't admit here is that nobody was threatened.
After all, as an astute member of these boards pointed out, who would go that far over a
relatively cheap piece of cardboard. As I told the seller before but he refused to believe,
the money was not the issue to me. The issue was his blatant lies. His money arrived
on Saturday and was signed for by my son. It was mailed back to him today.
Let the spinning begin. I'm done with it.
CONGRATULATIONS, DOCTOR*DADDY....YOU'VE BEEN PUNK'D
Again, if there is anybody still not fed up with this thread and would like copies of anything
and the seller won't provide them I'll be happy to. And while I know it wasn't meant as a
compliment I got a kick out of that E-SHERIFF BADGE. >>
Now fight-fraud admits that he has been lying to us this entire time. Unbelievable.
1. He has a lot of time on his hands to compose 3-page letters and fill out 4-page "mail fraud forms."
2. He is a liar.
3. I still have not received the payment back. Hmmmmmmmmmm, why does my bank tell me that the check was deposited on 10/2?
If you're going to lie, you should have at least waited a little while to deposit the check.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>So, now I know several things about fight-FRAUD:
1. He has a lot of time on his hands to compose 3-page letters and fill out 4-page "mail fraud forms."
2. He is a liar.
3. I still have not received the payment back. Hmmmmmmmmmm, why does my bank tell me that the check was deposited on 10/2?
If you're going to lie, you should have at least waited a little while to deposit the check.
You still haven't taken the time to answer my original question.
Don't you know this is a thread where those that are involved only answer questions that they have believable answers to that only paint them in a good light, and glaze over the questions that will make them look bad?
Lee
<< <i>Boo,
Don't you know this is a thread where those that are involved only answer questions that they have believable answers to that only paint them in a good light, and glaze over the questions that will make them look bad?
Lee >>
I've asked 2 or 3 times why he didn't send the card in question into PSA. The silence is deafening...
Me thinks he's not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth
- Why, if he feels nothing is wrong with the Willie Greene he sold raw, has jmbk not submitted this card to PSA and make an extra $100 if it gets a 9? Surely it would have been easy to include it in one of his last two submissions.
- Why has jmbk not addressed the fact that he's had several Willie Greene's and others come back from PSA because they have not met the minimum size requirements, and why did he lie about saying he never had a problem with any Willie Greenes when he's had several rejected?
- Why has DBH not addressed the fact that there's a Willie Greene that's over 1 mm short that has made it into a PSA slab?
- Why does DBH care so much about making jmbk look bad?
- Why is Fight-Fraud a psychotic lunatic?
- Why am I still following this thread?
Would the peoploe involved like to answer these questions, or should we just go about playing politician?
Lee
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Instead the seller (jmb) has been able to post his misstatements, half-truths, and
bald-faced lies >>
I think the most telling sign to this whole saga is that apparently Jmb has lost all of his hair over this transaction too.
I am sure PSA grades the short Willie Greene, but not all the time.
Just because some of them have graded and some haven't, don't make blanketing statements like you've never had problem with Willie Greene. Yes, you got some graded, you had some that didn't make it. Don't 'leave out' information. That is what Hurt is saying. I don't think he is disputing that PSA has graded short ones. None of us are. We saw the pictures. But...there is proof that some of the Greene's came back too short.
Bottom line...if you are forthcoming and give the buyer a refund it is all avoided.
2000 Bowman Chrome
2002 Topps Heritage NAP
2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics
2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
<< <i>Questions left unanswered that have been asked several times:
- Why, if he feels nothing is wrong with the Willie Greene he sold raw, has jmbk not submitted this card to PSA and make an extra $100 if it gets a 9? Surely it would have been easy to include it in one of his last two submissions.
- Why has jmbk not addressed the fact that he's had several Willie Greene's and others come back from PSA because they have not met the minimum size requirements, and why did he lie about saying he never had a problem with any Willie Greenes when he's had several rejected?
- Why has DBH not addressed the fact that there's a Willie Greene that's over 1 mm short that has made it into a PSA slab?
- Why does DBH care so much about making jmbk look bad?
- Why is Fight-Fraud a psychotic lunatic?
- Why am I still following this thread?
Would the peoploe involved like to answer these questions, or should we just go about playing politician?
Lee >>
1./2. PSA grading fees are expensive; I'm poor. I sold some raw ones. I am sure DBH can address you to other raw auctions I have sold, most notably, 1993 Refractors of Ken Griffey Jr.. I have sold several raw on eBay for as much as $700. I know for a fact that at least 2 have come back BGS 9.5 and at least 1 has been graded PSA 10. eBay ID dimmcollectibles has bought several from me on eBay. Feel free to email him (Dan) if you think I'm a "bald face liar." I do not call having my grading fees returned a "problem" with Willie Greene, and I still don't. I simply resubmit and move on. Doesn't cost me anything. Keep in mind that my "never had a problem with a Willie Greene" is taken entirely out of context: This was my statement AFTER fight-FRAUD told me that he 'knew' the card was trimmed and that I was the one that trimmed it. As you know, DBH carefully trimmed and edited the email nicely.
3. DBH is jealous because I have compiled a very nice collection of 1993 Refractors in very high grades and have been able to do quite well on eBay. He got out during one of the "lows" in terms of pricing and now he's bitter. He obsessively checks the auctions on eBay, seriously. Anyone who even passively reads these boards know that he is often present to offer some idiotic "insight" onto nearly every one of my posts for the past 18 months or so, even before the "Willie Greene Scandal." There's certainly some psychopathology here, but I've lost interest.
4. I don't know.
5. I don't know.
If you're such a Mr. Mint or Bill Mastro, why the hell are you trying to rip someone off a $100 purchase? Why do you lie about such a small sum when you're supposedly rolling in a Lamborghini and burning up $50 bills to light your cigars?
The fact is, you're the one that needs his ego stroked to compensate for obvious short comings in your personal life. If you're not constantly trying to impress others with unsolicited information about how you supposedly sold refractor X for $4,000, you're saying the reason they're not impressed with your claims is because they MUST be jealous.
I love how you tell others they must've sold too low on 1993 refractors when the market for them has now fallen through the floor. You don't even know what cards I bought and sold and you're telling me my business? This from a person who started buying 1993 refractors just a year and a half ago? If that doesn't speak for how ignorant you are, I don't know what will.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
...I have compiled a very nice collection of 1993 Refractors in very high grades and have been able to do quite well....
is this contradicting???
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>...PSA grading fees are expensive; I'm poor....
...I have compiled a very nice collection of 1993 Refractors in very high grades and have been able to do quite well....
is this contradicting??? >>
Yes. And clearly it's BS. So what-- he had money to get 25 of these refractors graded last month, but couldn't cough up the extra $10 or whatever for the 26th one? Puhleeze.
Not to pick on you, but exactly what answer to your question wouldn't be BS? If a person regularly submits cards to PSA, and regularly buys and sells cards on ebay, and honestly believes those cards to be "perfect", there's absolutely no sane reason why they wouldn't submit.
Objection your honor, consel is leading the witness.
Overruled, I'll allow it.
Dammit.
Lee
<< <i>Boo,
Not to pick on you, but exactly what answer to your question wouldn't be BS? If a person regularly submits cards to PSA, and regularly buys and sells cards on ebay, and honestly believes those cards to be "perfect", there's absolutely no sane reason why they wouldn't submit.
Objection your honor, consel is leading the witness.
Overruled, I'll allow it.
Dammit.
Lee >>
I think a fair (and probably honest) answer would be 'I submitted this card multiple times couldn't get it slabbed. It kept coming back min size req, so I figured it was a mint card that was simply undersized, and put it on Ebay without mentioning the size issue since I figured it would affect the hammer price'.
His whole reason for coming here and defending himself is to say he didn't do anything wrong- in fact, up to this point he hasn't made one statement acknowledging his own error, which is pretty astonishing considering the fact that we all know why he didn't mention the fact that there's more than a millimeter missing from a card and that it has been rejected, and that he's arguing his innocence to a bunch of people who are condition hounds and see through exactly what he did. Furthermore, not mentioning the shortness in his ebay listing is the equivalent to not mentioning a surface wrinkle or if the back is miscut. Just because it was cut that way in the factory, doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to the condition of the card. Buyers have a right to know the condition of the thing they're bidding on, and jmbk intentionally held back information that clearly would've hurt the final price.
Luckily for jmbk, fight-fraud comes off as a complete psycho and it's hard to believe anything he says. If it were you or I, boo, that bought this card, I think it would be more of a jmbk bbq 'round these here parts.
Lee
JMBK: You know how I know you're gay?
Fight Fraud: How? How do you know I'm gay?
JMBK: Because you macramed yourself a pair of jean shorts.
Fight Fraud: You know how I know you're gay? You just told me you're not sleeping with women any more.
JMBK: You know how I know that you're gay?
Fight Fraud: How? Cuz you're gay? and you can tell who other gay people are.
JMBK: You know how I know you're gay?
Fight Fraud: How?
JMBK: You like Coldplay.
2000 Bowman Chrome
2002 Topps Heritage NAP
2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics
2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
<< <i>Sure it's an honest answer, but would you bid on the card if he said it? I mean I guess I stand corrected because it wouldn't be a BS answer, but then he looks like an a-hole if he admittedly says he didn't mention the card being rejected multiple times and the card being short because he wanted to get more money for the card.
His whole reason for coming here and defending himself is to say he didn't do anything wrong- in fact, up to this point he hasn't made one statement acknowledging his own error, which is pretty astonishing considering the fact that we all know why he didn't mention the fact that there's more than a millimeter missing from a card and that it has been rejected, and that he's arguing his innocence to a bunch of people who are condition hounds and see through exactly what he did. Furthermore, not mentioning the shortness in his ebay listing is the equivalent to not mentioning a surface wrinkle or if the back is miscut. Just because it was cut that way in the factory, doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to the condition of the card. Buyers have a right to know the condition of the thing they're bidding on, and jmbk intentionally held back information that clearly would've hurt the final price.
Luckily for jmbk, fight-fraud comes off as a complete psycho and it's hard to believe anything he says. If it were you or I, boo, that bought this card, I think it would be more of a jmbk bbq 'round these here parts.
Lee >>
Lee,
I think we may be talking over each other's heads.
What I'm saying is this (and I'm not arguing that you disagree with me, although maybe you do). First, I think it's fine to sell an undersized card and not announce it in the auction (a trimmed card would be a different story). However, if you're going to do that you can't say it's 'perfect in every way', because, well, it isn't. But even ignoring that, if you do sell it and the buyer calls you on it then IMO you're obligated to refund the guy his money. To paraphrase Emilio Estevez' dad in The Breakfast Club', 'Guys f**k around. But you got caught, sport." That the original seller didn't just acknowledge the fact that he couldn't sneak this card past the buyer and refund his money is unethical, because the card was NOT as described in the auction description.
So there's that. But then, once this whole debacle comes to light on the boards, it's REALLY shameless to come on here and act like you did nothing wrong. So if the original seller is going to strut around here and call fight-fraud a lunatic then he ought to come clean with his role in this ugly little three act play-- which, I might add, is a considerable role indeed.
The fact- and it is a fact-- is that jmkb lied in his auction description about the card's condition, and when he was called on it by fight fraud he didn't try to make it right. Instead he spins some line about how the card should have no prob. getting through PSA, which is a lie stacked on top of the original lie, since we know that if it really was 'perfect in every way' he would have submitted it himself. Whatever fight fraud's role was in escalating the situation is secondary to the fact that none of this would have transpired if the original seller hadn't acted like a gonad in the first place.
And anyway, I can sympathise with fight fraud to an extent. Does he have some anger management issues? I'll concede that. Did he get a little carried away? Yeah, probably. But really, I can see how a participant in this hobby could get sick of all these penny-ante shenanigans at some point and go completely over the top. If you're a baseball card collector the odds are extraordinarily high that you've had the proverbial 'telephone pole wrapped in barb wire' rammed up your posterior sans lubricant more times then you can count, and at some point you have lash out at the next joker who tries to violate you. Fight fraud probably isn't trying to just 'get back' at jkmb, but also trying to exact some vengeance against every other overweight, socially maladjusted card dealer that's ever given him the short end of a deal. You can argue that he could have handled it differently, but I think we can all empathise with the sentiment behind his actions.
Also, is there something about Coldplay that I don't know about? I like that song 'Clocks', although I'm reasonably sure I'm not homosexual....
I think you nailed it! Just by judging what is in front of me, I came up with the same conclusion. The ebay auction should have stated that this card was rejected by PSA for min size requirements, although many others like it will eventually get slabbed.
That is the problem with factory cut short cards. They have that possibility of getting rejected even though they are perfect in every other way.
Fight-Fraud cashed in the check that JMB sent? I thought Fight-Fraud was going to send the check back. There is a huge difference between a card being trimmed and a card that does not meet min size requirements. Does one pay grading fees if a card comes back not meeting min size requirements? If so, fight-fraud should have submitted it to PSA instead of relying on this elusive friend.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
'telephone pole wrapped in barb wire' rammed up your posterior sans lubricant more times then you can count?
reasonably sure I'm not homosexual.... ?
I don't know Boo!
Just kidding. Thought I would have a little fun on here (quotes from the 40 Year Old Virgin) since these two will obviously drag this on for another month.
And I hate to admit, I like Coldplay too. 'The Scientist' rocks!
2000 Bowman Chrome
2002 Topps Heritage NAP
2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics
2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
I think its impassioned threads like these that can really get the best out of you. Your last post above was really well written.
I can sympathize with fight-fraud too. I mean, even in iconic figures such as Batman, we have a guy that becomes a vigilante to exact revenge on behalf of his parents and then some. A psycho to some extent, but still with a lot of good in him. Fight-Fraud has probably seen his share of being screwed and decided he was not going to take it anymore. JMB was not totally innocent in this either. For fight-fraud to have used the ruse of claiming to write to the post master and licensing board of jmb's profession is not really over the line in that context. Everyone has a right to write a letter as long as its not libelious.
If a medical doctor sold you his old Mercedes because he wanted a newer model and lied about its condition in various ways, not only would most people be upset of getting shafted, but it stings even more because you are purchasing from someone that society upholds to a different set of standards, especially ethical standards. If a person lies, cheats and rips people off in one arena, it's going to transcend in other parts of a person's life too. I know I wouldn't want to go to a doctor that had to rip someone off just to sell his car. Even though it was not medically related, we are talking about ethics here and people need to know if their doctor is ethical or not.
I would buy cards from MorrellMan and Stone in a heartbeat because of the honesty and ethics they have demonstrated to me in other arenas of life.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>Penny-ante shenanigans?
'telephone pole wrapped in barb wire' rammed up your posterior sans lubricant more times then you can count?
reasonably sure I'm not homosexual.... ?
I don't know Boo!
Just kidding. Thought I would have a little fun on here (quotes from the 40 Year Old Virgin) since these two will obviously drag this on for another month.
And I hate to admit, I like Coldplay too. 'The Scientist' rocks! >>
One thing I love about being 34 years old is that I have no pretentions of being 'cool' anymore, so if I hear something I like I can shamelessly blast it with the windows down in my '96 Camry without caring in the least what the little 19 year old hotpants in the '04 Mustang next to me at the stoplight thinks of my musical taste.
I also like Kelly Clarkson's 'Miss Independant', the Cris Brown song ('Run it,' maybe?) and a slow song by Savage Garden that has a line about 'running to you in the mountains'. Actually, the list is considerably longer than that, but we'll stop there for now.... and lest you get TOO concerned about my bedroom proclivities, let me tell you that the last concert I went to was a BLS show
I quit being cool as soon as I started having to be around teenagers all day! I try to distance myself from current 'taste' as much as possible!
I agree with DeutscherGeist that your post on this was pretty much right on.
2000 Bowman Chrome
2002 Topps Heritage NAP
2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics
2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
<< <i>Boopotts,
I think you nailed it! Just by judging what is in front of me, I came up with the same conclusion. The ebay auction should have stated that this card was rejected by PSA for min size requirements, although many others like it will eventually get slabbed.
That is the problem with factory cut short cards. They have that possibility of getting rejected even though they are perfect in every other way.
Fight-Fraud cashed in the check that JMB sent? I thought Fight-Fraud was going to send the check back. There is a huge difference between a card being trimmed and a card that does not meet min size requirements. Does one pay grading fees if a card comes back not meeting min size requirements? If so, fight-fraud should have submitted it to PSA instead of relying on this elusive friend. >>
Yeah, the 'mystery authenticator' is a bit strange. One quick round-way trip to Newport Beach with that card would have saved fight-fraud some time and headaches.
In the final analysis I can see why jkmb set up his auction the way he did (it's tough to put text in an auction description that you know will cost you money, so even if this is an ethical shortcoming I think it's probably a small one), but I can also see why fight-fraud flipped out when he realized jkmb had stuck him with a short card.
2. Seems to me there has been some unsavory behavior by both of the principals in this affair. Lying/misrepresenting the truth is never good. Probably should have been a refund from the get-go, but that has been stated many times already. In hindsight, I'm sure jmkb would concur.
3. I know zip about the allure and rarity of some of these '93 refractors, but I sure would love to get my mitts on a 9 or 10 #6 Brett Butler!
4. Coldplay - ugh!
Geordie
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie