Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both PSA and BGS as trimmed (how about a SINGLE Cert. # to substantiate this?), and neither he nor DBH have anything to say about the PROOF I've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
This doesn't sound right, as that is how the 1986 fleer sticker #1 Jabbar comes and they dont grade small ones simply because many come that way.
<< <i>Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both PSA and BGS as trimmed (how about a SINGLE Cert. # to substantiate this?), and neither he nor DBH have anything to say about the PROOF I've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
This doesn't sound right, as that is how the 1986 fleer sticker #1 Jabbar comes and they dont grade small ones simply because many come that way. >>
Please refer back to the picture of the grossly undersized Willie Greene that was graded PSA 10. Another one sized similarly (perhaps a little smaller) was graded PSA 10 in the same batch and immediately traded to another collector.
You cannot dispute the discrepancy in size of the Willie Greene that was graded PSA 10 and REALLY shoots holes in fight-FRAUD's whining about how I "trimmed" his poor, pitiful Willie Greene card.
You can say you didn't get any cards back that said "evidence of trimming," but all those "did not meet min. size req'd" in addition to the number of cards PSA said were trimmed?
<DIV>DaBigHurt writes:I'm curious as to how you get those cert numbers with all those</DIV>
<DIV>trimmed 1993 refractors?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>If you know the Certification Number and who submitted a single graded card you can check </DIV>
<DIV>the sequence above and below that number to see the others cards/grades that they </DIV>
<DIV>received with that order. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>DaBigHurt writes; The facts are, you refused to issue him a refund when the card </DIV>
<DIV>came back as trimmed from PSA and BGS</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>jmbkb4 writes; Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. </DIV>
<DIV>fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both </DIV>
<DIV>PSA and BGS as trimmed</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Let's clear this up now. DaBigHurt misread my auction and the seller has seized on his</DIV>
<DIV>misunderstanding to the point where he is attempting to put DaBigHurt's misstatement into</DIV>
<DIV>my mouth. I NEVER claimed in my auction, to eBay, or here that the card had been sent</DIV>
<DIV>to PSA/BGS and was rejected because it was trimmed. It was never submitted.. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>The seller refused to issue a refund for the undersized, ungraded card and stated that he</DIV>
<DIV>would not issue a refund even if I did attempt to get it graded so there was no point. We </DIV>
<DIV>then went through eBay's dispute process and eBay required me to have the card inspected</DIV>
<DIV>by an independent authenticator. That is where I first learned that the card was not just</DIV>
<DIV>undersized but trimmed. I submitted a copy of the inspection report to eBay and it was</DIV>
<DIV>sufficient enough for them to issue a partial refund.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>CDsNuts writes; jmbk, did all of those cards he sayas you submitted come back as trimmed?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>jmbkb4 writes; Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. ...the PROOFI've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene </DIV>
<DIV>that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
None of 19 PSA certififcation numbers for W Greene refractors that I posted here and that </DIV>
<DIV>the seller submitted were rejected for evidence of trimming and I never claimed they were.</DIV>
<DIV>However all 19 were rejected for not meeting minimum size requirements and contradicts </DIV>
<DIV>the sellers statement about how happy PSA is to grade short cards. The fact that he has</DIV>
<DIV>managed to get a few graded doesn't change that fact. Since the seller was obviously </DIV>
<DIV>aware of the size problems these cards have why didn't he feel an obligation to reveal that</DIV>
<DIV>fact to his buyers?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>jmbkb4 writes; So.........FIGHT-FRAUD, keep spending money on eBay with your sad </DIV>
<DIV>little auctions; your dramatic stunt is pedestrian and of absolutely no consequence</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Thank you but your opinion as well as your permission is not required.</DIV><FONT face="Courier New CE"></FONT>
<DIV> jmbkb4 writes;3. Who is this "independent authenticator?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>A copy of his report was sent to you on Monday. It is on his Business Letterhead and </DIV>
<DIV>includes his Name, Address, and Phone Number. Fell free to give him a call.</DIV>
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Again, not taking sides here, but if you submit a card enough times, we all know it will probably end up in a slab eventually. Just because it's in a slab, doesn't mean it hasn't been trimmed, especially on an issue that's tough to discern whether a card has been trimmed or is simply cut short by the factory. And, for whatever reason, it seems that PSA grades the 93 refractors somewhat leniently for the most part. In fact, I remember jmbk starting a thread about a PSA 10 Sosa or Griffey that was at best 65/35 one way.
What I was asking, jmbk, was whether you had all those certs that Fight-Fraud listed (not the Willie Greene's) come back as evidence of trimming. If so, that's a hell of a lot of cards for one issue, regardless of how many you were sending in. I've sent hundreds/thousands of cards in from the same issues (78 Topps, 91 Desert Shield, a few others), and they'll almost always end up "Min. Size Req." if they're short.
DaBigHurt writes:I'm curious as to how you get those cert numbers with all those trimmed 1993 refractors?
If you know the Certification Number and who submitted a single graded card you can check the sequence above and below that number to see the others cards/grades that they received with that order.
DaBigHurt writes; The facts are, you refused to issue him a refund when the card came back as trimmed from PSA and BGS jmbkb4 writes; Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both PSA and BGS as trimmed
Let's clear this up now. DaBigHurt misread my auction and the seller has seized on his misunderstanding to the point where he is attempting to put DaBigHurt's misstatement into my mouth. I NEVER claimed in my auction, to eBay, or here that the card had been sent to PSA/BGS and was rejected because it was trimmed. It was never submitted..
The seller refused to issue a refund for the undersized, ungraded card and stated that he would not issue a refund even if I did attempt to get it graded so there was no point. We then went through eBay's dispute process and eBay required me to have the card inspected by an independent authenticator. That is where I first learned that the card was not just undersized but trimmed. I submitted a copy of the inspection report to eBay and it was sufficient enough for them to issue a partial refund. CDsNuts writes; jmbk, did all of those cards he sayas you submitted come back as trimmed? jmbkb4 writes; Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. ...the PROOFI've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
None of 19 PSA certififcation numbers for W Greene refractors that I posted here and that the seller submitted were rejected for evidence of trimming and I never claimed they were. However all 19 were rejected for not meeting minimum size requirements and contradicts the sellers statement about how happy PSA is to grade short cards. The fact that he has managed to get a few graded doesn't change that fact. Since the seller was obviously aware of the size problems these cards have why didn't he feel an obligation to reveal that fact to his buyers? And when I first emailed the seller and asked him if was aware of the undersized problem with the card he sent me how truthful was his statement - "I've never had a problem with a Willie Greene" jmbkb4 writes; So.........FIGHT-FRAUD, keep spending money on eBay with your sad little auctions; your dramatic stunt is pedestrian and of absolutely no consequence Thank you but your opinion as well as your permission is not required. jmbkb4 writes;3. Who is this "independent authenticator? A copy of his report was sent to you on Monday. It is on his Business Letterhead and includes his Name, Address, and Phone Number. Fell free to give him a call.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Hopefully this matter is coming to a close and I can fade back into the backround but the sellers last post before it was edited was so full of lies, half-truths and inaccuarcies that I couldn't let it stand uncorrected.
On Monday I sent the seller copies of the independent authenticator's report, a Mail Fraud report, and a letter I wrote to a friend of mine who works for the Postal Inspection Service.
1. There was no profanity in any of these documents and I'll send copies to anyone who wants them. The ending to the letter I sent my friend is posted below. For the sellers benefit I've edited out a few unflattering although unprofane comments.
2. You'll notice that the letters to his employer as well as other entities have NOT been sent yet, they haven't even been written yet , so obviously nobody could have read them.
3. At the end of my letter I asked my friend to "Give my love to Michelle and the boys." Apparently the seller has perceived this to be a threat against his family. I didn't even know the seller had a family let alone their names. Hell, it is not even a threat to my friends family. Why is it so hard to read plain English?
4. jmbkb4, Thank you for finally agreeing to issue a refund. Too bad we couldn't have reached this point weeks ago.
5. Reference your request to return the card, because of your unwillingness to accept the conclusion's of the independent authenticator I finally sent the card into PSA today. If they still grade the card I will return the refund you are sending me. If they refuse to grade the card I will send you the certification number and destroy the card so it can't be sold again.
Stephen fightfraud@aol.com
<< <i>SUBJ: MAIL FRAUD
Jimmy:
....
I don’t expect much here but I want to get it on the record so I’ll be writing letters to the Missouri Attorney General’s Division of Consumer Fraud, Missouri Board of Registration for the Healing Arts, and the University of Missouri Hospital. ... they might find my letter useful .... I am willing to bet they would not look too kindly to a federal felony charge filed against one of the staff either. I am going to hold off sending them for a few weeks as well as some of your other suggestions just to see how this other stuff pans out. I’ve got plenty of time.
I am going to send the seller a copy of this letter and a few other things. If he is still unable or unwilling to settle this matter properly and to my satisfaction he soon won’t have any other chances once things get rolling. ...
I’m putting this letter and other documents in the mail today and if I don’t see you before then I definitely will be at the Hawks-Vikings game next month. Thanks again for your help. Give my love to Michelle and the boys. I’ll talk to you again in a few days. >>
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
i have no idea who is wrong or right here, i dont even think ive read the whole thread.. but dmatc, who the hell is the independent authenticator if youve never submitted the card to BGS or PSA?
pandrews writes;I have no idea who is wrong or right here... but dmatc, who the hell is the independent authenticator if youve never submitted the card to BGS or PSA
Kind of sounds like you might have an opinion about who is wrong or right here. Do you believe BGS and PSA the only entities allowed to state an opinion on a cards condition?
The person who inspected the card is the long time owner of one of the largest Sportscards and Memorabilia Stores in the Pacific Northwest.
If you want a copy of his report send me your address via email.
HIS CREDENTIALS -
Beckett magazine correspondent since 1989 PSA Submission Center for 10+ years Contributor to the Sports Card Counterfeit Detection Guide Professional Appraiser of Sports Cards and Memorabilia.
fightfraud@aol.com
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
<< <i>pandrews writes;I have no idea who is wrong or right here... but dmatc, who the hell is the independent authenticator if youve never submitted the card to BGS or PSA
Kind of sounds like you might have an opinion about who is wrong or right here. Do you believe BGS and PSA the only entities allowed to state an opinion on a cards condition?
The person who inspected the card is the long time owner of one of the largest Sportscards and Memorabilia Stores in the Pacific Northwest.
If you want a copy of his report send me your address via email.
HIS CREDENTIALS -
Beckett magazine correspondent since 1989 PSA Submission Center for 10+ years Contributor to the Sports Card Counterfeit Detection Guide Professional Appraiser of Sports Cards and Memorabilia.
fightfraud@aol.com >>
Two things.
1) You have to admit it's a little weird that you haven't given his name. 2) If the central issue is whether or not PSA will slab the card, then it seems like sending it to PSA is the most logical thing to do. You yourself said that 'the card was worthless to you if PSA wouldn't grade it', so why not give it to the people who's opinion you most value?
So let me get this straight. dmatc gets a refund from the seller jmbkb4. jmbkb4 doesn't get the card back. He might get his money back if PSA grades the card. If they don't jmbkb4 gets the cert number but no card--dmatc wll take it upon himself to rid the world of the card. Boy, that seems fair.
Rather convienent that the card was sent in today for grading.
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
So let me get this straight. dmatc gets a refund from the seller jmbkb4. jmbkb4 doesn't get the card back. He might get his money back if PSA grades the card. If they don't jmbkb4 gets the cert number but no card--dmatc wll take it upon himself to rid the world of the card. Boy, that seems fair.
I know paypal requires buyers to return an item once a full refund is issued. A co-worker filed a SNAD complaint through paypal for a defective DVD player and was required to return it at her expense. Not sure about ebay's policies, but since they're the same company...
Besides, I would bet there are raw card collectors who would be interested in the card even if it's below psa's size standards, especially if many of them were cut that way by Topps. I've listed tons of modern raw cards on ebay with worse defects than that fully disclosed and, if the card was relisted with the size mentioned in the description and an explanation that PSA determined it to be cut short by the manufacturer, I bet it would still sell reasonably close to where it did the first time.
Boopotts writes; You have to admit it's a little weird that you haven't given his name.
I just didn't feel it was proper the post his name in a public forum without his permission. If you want need his name send me your address via email and I'll send you a copy of his report.
onlyanumber writes; So let me get this straight. dmatc gets a refund from the seller jmbkb4. jmbkb4 doesn't get the card back. He might get his money back if PSA grades the card. If they don't jmbkb4 gets the cert number but no card--dmatc wll take it upon himself to rid the world of the card. Boy, that seems fair.
onlynumber has a valid point. I guess since I don't think of myself as dishonest I didn't realize how that might look to others. I was assuming that since a trimmed card is worthless to me it was worthless to everyone but obviously that is not the case. If the card is rejected by PSA and the seller still wants the card back I'll return it to him. Thank you for pointing out something that I should have thought through a little better.
fightfraud@aol.com
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
dmatc >>> should return the card immediately after getting refund and went way over the top. I would guess that he has managed to find his way on to half of the people who have read this thread banned bidder lists (show of hands anyone)
carew4me quote "It's because one of you is border line insane and the other reminds me of E.B, the hotel owner on Deadwood." Very astute
<< <i>I just didn't feel it was proper the post his name in a public forum without his permission. If you want need his name send me your address via email and I'll send you a copy of his report. >>
whatever.. if you cannot provide a name of a reputable 3rd party authenticator, your claim is garbage as far as im concerned..
PS: no way in hell would i ever consider sending you my address..
- pandrews is right (as always)- Fight-fraud clearly has taken it upon himself to police the entire world of sportscard collecting, which as we know is a losing and pointless cause. I'd venture to guess there are some psychological issues at work here. I'm assuming DBH took time out of his day to email him to let him know what was going on here in the forums, which I think is equally disturbing. However, Fight-fraud does have the right to fight for his rights if he feels he's been ripped off, and I certainly don't fault him for coming here and pleading his case.
- jmkb has never addressed the cert numbers that were rejected because of evidence of trimming, and I checked (god I have no life) and found that some of the cert numbers are sequenced with slabs he has sold in ebay auctions. So he has, in fact had several 93 refractors rejected because of evidence of trimming, which is very fishy. PSA usually gives the "ev. trim" if they have clear evidence, otherwise it's just "minimum size requirement", which means they think the factory cut it short. I've never had a card I've pulled out of a pack come back as "ev. trim", but I know some of the folks here have. But 24 cards rejected as "ev. trim.," unless submitted over several thousand cards, is the work of a card doctor. I'm not saying jmbk is the doctor, he may have bought them from one. But the fact that he hasn't addressed it makes me wonder. Edit- I stand corrected. Only a few of the 24 refractors were rejected because of "ev. trimming", the others were "min. size req." My mistake jmbk.
- The only reason I've been following this so closely, other than the fact that I'm a loser, is that I made a lot of money in my late teens and early 20s buying and selling 93 refractors, and I've always had it in mind to put the set together for my collection, although I think I will wait for prices to chill. The fact that there may be a lot of trimmed cards out there scares the bejesus out of me.
Please let me make it clear that I'm not taking sides, just letting you know how things appear to me.
To rescind my earlier statement, only the couple Harold Baines were rejected as "ev. trim". The others were "Min. Size req." Maybe they weren't doctored. Who the hell knows. I apologize to everyone.
- pandrews is right (as always)- Fight-fraud clearly has taken it upon himself to police the entire world of sportscard collecting, which as we know is a losing and pointless cause. I'd venture to guess there are some psychological issues at work here. >>
Well, I have no real idea what the hell happened either and so, like you, I'm not taking sides. But I will say that it's entirely feasible that an otherwise sane and reasonable man could eventually reach the point where's he just so sick and tired of getting ass-hammered time and time again on card deals gone bad that he eventually flips out and decides to embark on a Quixotic crusade to rid the hobby of cheats, liars and cons once and for all.
<< <i>jmkb has never addressed the cert numbers that were rejected because of evidence of trimming
If I'm following this thread correctly, there weren't any. They all said minimum size requirement. >>
Some of those cert #'s were rejected for ev. trimming. For what its worth, I've submitted probably 125 or so of those shiny cards myself, and never had a single one rejected for either trimming or minimum size.
<< jmkb has never addressed the cert numbers that were rejected because of evidence of trimming
If I'm following this thread correctly, there weren't any. They all said minimum size requirement. >>
Some of those cert #'s were rejected for ev. trimming. For what its worth, I've submitted probably 125 or so of those shiny cards myself, and never had a single one rejected for either trimming or minimum size.
Got it.
You know who I feel the most sorry for? The poor schlep who just happens to submit a 93 Finest Willie Green refractor this week and gets it rejected just because someone at psa read this thread.
- pandrews is right (as always)- Fight-fraud clearly has taken it upon himself to police the entire world of sportscard collecting, which as we know is a losing and pointless cause. I'd venture to guess there are some psychological issues at work here. >>
Well, I have no real idea what the hell happened either and so, like you, I'm not taking sides. But I will say that it's entirely feasible that an otherwise sane and reasonable man could eventually reach the point where's he just so sick and tired of getting ass-hammered time and time again on card deals gone bad that he eventually flips out and decides to embark on a Quixotic crusade to rid the hobby of cheats, liars and cons once and for all. >>
Absolutely. Haven't any of you seen SE7EN?*
*I've now become a huge BooPotts fan because of this post.
<< <i>dmatc >>> should return the card immediately after getting refund and went way over the top. I would guess that he has managed to find his way on to half of the people who have read this thread banned bidder lists (show of hands anyone) >>
Everyone is relying on an independent authenticator by the name of "Jimmy" but we do not know his last name? This is crap. There should be no refund without certification from an actual grading company that the card has been trimmed.
Everyone is relying on an independent authenticator by the name of "Jimmy" but we do not know his last name? This is crap. There should be no refund without certification from an actual grading company that the card has been trimmed. >>
When I use a random third party authenticator, I usually employ the services of a fourth party authenticator to oversee the authentication of the third party authenticator. That way all my bases are covered. This usually takes a few months to put together, but I need to know whether my high grade commons are legit.
I'm trying to picture jmbk's face when he went into work, the boss called him into his office, and said some guy called asking for references because he bought a $100 baseball card from him and he feels he got ripped off.
Pandrews- I remember you being wrong. You were the high bidder on some PSA 10 '82 Fleer I listed that ended at .04 each. That was just wrong.
Everyone is relying on an independent authenticator by the name of "Jimmy" but we do not know his last name? This is crap. There should be no refund without certification from an actual grading company that the card has been trimmed. >>
I agree with you. God only knows what he did with the card before he sent it in; and, I'll also be willing to bet he included the "letter" from the unknown authenticator with the grading submission to be assured it received a "trimmed" grade.
In any case, it is very disappointing that I, admitting to having made mistakes, and offered a FULL refund (including shipping & handling), fight-FRAUD informs me that he is going to "destroy" the card when he receives it back from PSA.
In any case, I think his true character has become evident.
It is VERY disturbing to me that fight-FRAUD has composed letters to the Missouri Board for the Healing Arts, has written the hospital at which I am training to become a radiologist, and -- has made veiled threats towards my family.
That is scary and THAT is why I offered a full refund. In the 21st century, people are psycho and you can never be too careful. When it comes to my family, I will protect them at the cost of my pride/ego.
<< <i>I'm not saying jmbk is the doctor, he may have bought them from one. But the fact that he hasn't addressed it makes me wonder. Edit- I stand corrected. Only a few of the 24 refractors were rejected because of "ev. trimming", the others were "min. size req." My mistake jmbk.
Please let me make it clear that I'm not taking sides, just letting you know how things appear to me.
Lee >>
Lee,
I will now address the "trimming" and "minimimum size requirements issues.
1. The 2 cards that DID come back trimmed were HAROLD BAINES and NOT Willie Greene. The Harold Baines were purchased several months ago by a different person than most of my other cards (including Willie Greene). In my entire life, I have had TWO cards come back from PSA as trimmed, and they were both HAROLD BAINES from the seller. I do NOT believe they were trimmed. I do believe they are a little factory-short, as 75% of Willie Greenes, 50% of Orestes Destrade, and 25% of Harold Reynolds are.
2. I have NEVER had a Willie Greene come back as trimmed. I have had several return as being factory short and have had my grading fees returned in the form of vouchers. I do not care what the "unknown/unnamed 'independnt' investigator" thinks of the card, he was paid to give an opinion and fight-FRAUD obviously wanted to believe it was TRIMMED and not factory-undercut.
fight-FRAUD: You will receive a check for $135.50 from me on Saturday or Monday. You have admitted to receiving a refund from eBay, which would have totaled $131.50 - $25 = $106.50.
Since you are so incredibly honest, on your truth/integrity-seeking mission, what are you going to do with the > $100 you profited? Will you be returning it to eBay or keeping it for yourself?
Additionally, will you re-send me my original Willie Greene card.
Date Received: 09/26/2006 Date of Grades Posted: 09/29/2006 Date Shipped: No Date Specified
I want to thank PSA for having the business integrity to grade the Willie Greene cards this week, in amidst of all of fight-FRAUD's false accusations and histrionics.
Comments
This doesn't sound right, as that is how the 1986 fleer sticker #1 Jabbar comes and they dont grade small ones simply because many come that way.
<< <i>Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both PSA and BGS as trimmed (how about a SINGLE Cert. # to substantiate this?), and neither he nor DBH have anything to say about the PROOF I've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
This doesn't sound right, as that is how the 1986 fleer sticker #1 Jabbar comes and they dont grade small ones simply because many come that way. >>
Please refer back to the picture of the grossly undersized Willie Greene that was graded PSA 10. Another one sized similarly (perhaps a little smaller) was graded PSA 10 in the same batch and immediately traded to another collector.
You cannot dispute the discrepancy in size of the Willie Greene that was graded PSA 10 and REALLY shoots holes in fight-FRAUD's whining about how I "trimmed" his poor, pitiful Willie Greene card.
31685075, 31685076, 31685077, 31685078, 31685070, 06370269, 06370270, 06370271, 06370273, 06370274, 07134771, 07134772,
07134773, 07134788, 07134789, 07134790, 07134791, 07134792, 07134793, 07134794, 07164718, 07164719, 31685063, 31685064
I noticed you didn't deny his assertion.
You can say you didn't get any cards back that said "evidence of trimming," but all those "did not meet min. size req'd" in addition to the number of cards PSA said were trimmed?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<DIV>trimmed 1993 refractors?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>If you know the Certification Number and who submitted a single graded card you can check </DIV>
<DIV>the sequence above and below that number to see the others cards/grades that they </DIV>
<DIV>received with that order. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>DaBigHurt writes; The facts are, you refused to issue him a refund when the card </DIV>
<DIV>came back as trimmed from PSA and BGS</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>jmbkb4 writes; Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. </DIV>
<DIV>fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both </DIV>
<DIV>PSA and BGS as trimmed </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Let's clear this up now. DaBigHurt misread my auction and the seller has seized on his</DIV>
<DIV>misunderstanding to the point where he is attempting to put DaBigHurt's misstatement into</DIV>
<DIV>my mouth. I NEVER claimed in my auction, to eBay, or here that the card had been sent</DIV>
<DIV>to PSA/BGS and was rejected because it was trimmed. It was never submitted.. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>The seller refused to issue a refund for the undersized, ungraded card and stated that he</DIV>
<DIV>would not issue a refund even if I did attempt to get it graded so there was no point. We </DIV>
<DIV>then went through eBay's dispute process and eBay required me to have the card inspected</DIV>
<DIV>by an independent authenticator. That is where I first learned that the card was not just</DIV>
<DIV>undersized but trimmed. I submitted a copy of the inspection report to eBay and it was</DIV>
<DIV>sufficient enough for them to issue a partial refund.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>CDsNuts writes; jmbk, did all of those cards he sayas you submitted come back as trimmed?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>jmbkb4 writes; Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed. ...the PROOF I've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene </DIV>
<DIV>that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
None of 19 PSA certififcation numbers for W Greene refractors that I posted here and that </DIV>
<DIV>the seller submitted were rejected for evidence of trimming and I never claimed they were.</DIV>
<DIV>However all 19 were rejected for not meeting minimum size requirements and contradicts </DIV>
<DIV>the sellers statement about how happy PSA is to grade short cards. The fact that he has</DIV>
<DIV>managed to get a few graded doesn't change that fact. Since the seller was obviously </DIV>
<DIV>aware of the size problems these cards have why didn't he feel an obligation to reveal that</DIV>
<DIV>fact to his buyers?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>jmbkb4 writes; So.........FIGHT-FRAUD, keep spending money on eBay with your sad </DIV>
<DIV>little auctions; your dramatic stunt is pedestrian and of absolutely no consequence</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Thank you but your opinion as well as your permission is not required.</DIV><FONT face="Courier New CE"></FONT>
<DIV>
jmbkb4 writes; 3. Who is this "independent authenticator?</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>A copy of his report was sent to you on Monday. It is on his Business Letterhead and </DIV>
<DIV>includes his Name, Address, and Phone Number. Fell free to give him a call.</DIV>
Deadman's Registry Sets
Deadman's Registry Sets
What I was asking, jmbk, was whether you had all those certs that Fight-Fraud listed (not the Willie Greene's) come back as evidence of trimming. If so, that's a hell of a lot of cards for one issue, regardless of how many you were sending in. I've sent hundreds/thousands of cards in from the same issues (78 Topps, 91 Desert Shield, a few others), and they'll almost always end up "Min. Size Req." if they're short.
Lee
DaBigHurt writes: I'm curious as to how you get those cert numbers with all those
trimmed 1993 refractors?
If you know the Certification Number and who submitted a single graded card you can check
the sequence above and below that number to see the others cards/grades that they
received with that order.
DaBigHurt writes; The facts are, you refused to issue him a refund when the card
came back as trimmed from PSA and BGS
jmbkb4 writes; Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed.
fight-FRAUD can't produce any, is lying about his coming back from both
PSA and BGS as trimmed
Let's clear this up now. DaBigHurt misread my auction and the seller has seized on his
misunderstanding to the point where he is attempting to put DaBigHurt's misstatement into
my mouth. I NEVER claimed in my auction, to eBay, or here that the card had been sent
to PSA/BGS and was rejected because it was trimmed. It was never submitted..
The seller refused to issue a refund for the undersized, ungraded card and stated that he
would not issue a refund even if I did attempt to get it graded so there was no point. We
then went through eBay's dispute process and eBay required me to have the card inspected
by an independent authenticator. That is where I first learned that the card was not just
undersized but trimmed. I submitted a copy of the inspection report to eBay and it was
sufficient enough for them to issue a partial refund.
CDsNuts writes; jmbk, did all of those cards he sayas you submitted come back as trimmed?
jmbkb4 writes; Absolutely not. Not a SINGLE Willie Greene has EVER come back as trimmed.
...the PROOF I've provided about PSA being happy to grade a Willie Greene
that is a little short, as this is how at least 60-75% of them came from the factory.
None of 19 PSA certififcation numbers for W Greene refractors that I posted here and that
the seller submitted were rejected for evidence of trimming and I never claimed they were.
However all 19 were rejected for not meeting minimum size requirements and contradicts
the sellers statement about how happy PSA is to grade short cards. The fact that he has
managed to get a few graded doesn't change that fact. Since the seller was obviously
aware of the size problems these cards have why didn't he feel an obligation to reveal that
fact to his buyers? And when I first emailed the seller and asked him if was aware of the
undersized problem with the card he sent me how truthful was his statement -
"I've never had a problem with a Willie Greene"
jmbkb4 writes; So.........FIGHT-FRAUD, keep spending money on eBay with your sad
little auctions; your dramatic stunt is pedestrian and of absolutely no consequence
Thank you but your opinion as well as your permission is not required.
jmbkb4 writes; 3. Who is this "independent authenticator?
A copy of his report was sent to you on Monday. It is on his Business Letterhead and
includes his Name, Address, and Phone Number. Fell free to give him a call.
Deadman's Registry Sets
fight-FRAUD, you "win"!! I am mailing you a refund today. Please make no more threats about my wife or children. That crosses the line.
I put a check in the mail today for the full amount, $135.50.
USPS Tracking # was sent to you in an email through eBay..
Would you please refund me the card? I'd like to get it graded.
Thanks.
Wow.
Still noticed you didn't deny being the submitter of all those trimmed/min.size req'd cards rejected by PSA.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
but the sellers last post before it was edited was so full of lies, half-truths and
inaccuarcies that I couldn't let it stand uncorrected.
On Monday I sent the seller copies of the independent authenticator's report,
a Mail Fraud report, and a letter I wrote to a friend of mine who works for
the Postal Inspection Service.
1. There was no profanity in any of these documents and I'll send copies to anyone
who wants them. The ending to the letter I sent my friend is posted below.
For the sellers benefit I've edited out a few unflattering although unprofane comments.
2. You'll notice that the letters to his employer as well as other entities have NOT been
sent yet, they haven't even been written yet , so obviously nobody could have read them.
3. At the end of my letter I asked my friend to "Give my love to Michelle and the boys."
Apparently the seller has perceived this to be a threat against his family. I didn't
even know the seller had a family let alone their names. Hell, it is not even a threat
to my friends family. Why is it so hard to read plain English?
4. jmbkb4, Thank you for finally agreeing to issue a refund. Too bad we couldn't have
reached this point weeks ago.
5. Reference your request to return the card, because of your unwillingness to accept
the conclusion's of the independent authenticator I finally sent the card into PSA today.
If they still grade the card I will return the refund you are sending me. If they refuse
to grade the card I will send you the certification number and destroy the card so it
can't be sold again.
Stephen
fightfraud@aol.com
<< <i>SUBJ: MAIL FRAUD
Jimmy:
....
I don’t expect much here but I want to get it on the record so I’ll be writing letters
to the Missouri Attorney General’s Division of Consumer Fraud, Missouri Board of
Registration for the Healing Arts, and the University of Missouri Hospital. ... they might
find my letter useful .... I am willing to bet they would not look too kindly to a federal
felony charge filed against one of the staff either. I am going to hold off sending them
for a few weeks as well as some of your other suggestions just to see how this other
stuff pans out. I’ve got plenty of time.
I am going to send the seller a copy of this letter and a few other things. If he is still
unable or unwilling to settle this matter properly and to my satisfaction he soon
won’t have any other chances once things get rolling. ...
I’m putting this letter and other documents in the mail today and if I don’t see you
before then I definitely will be at the Hawks-Vikings game next month. Thanks again for
your help. Give my love to Michelle and the boys. I’ll talk to you again in a few days. >>
Deadman's Registry Sets
is the independent authenticator if youve never submitted the card to BGS or PSA
Kind of sounds like you might have an opinion about who is wrong or right here.
Do you believe BGS and PSA the only entities allowed to state an opinion on a cards condition?
The person who inspected the card is the long time owner of one of the largest
Sportscards and Memorabilia Stores in the Pacific Northwest.
If you want a copy of his report send me your address via email.
HIS CREDENTIALS -
Beckett magazine correspondent since 1989
PSA Submission Center for 10+ years
Contributor to the Sports Card Counterfeit Detection Guide
Professional Appraiser of Sports Cards and Memorabilia.
fightfraud@aol.com
Deadman's Registry Sets
<< <i>pandrews writes; I have no idea who is wrong or right here... but dmatc, who the hell
is the independent authenticator if youve never submitted the card to BGS or PSA
Kind of sounds like you might have an opinion about who is wrong or right here.
Do you believe BGS and PSA the only entities allowed to state an opinion on a cards condition?
The person who inspected the card is the long time owner of one of the largest
Sportscards and Memorabilia Stores in the Pacific Northwest.
If you want a copy of his report send me your address via email.
HIS CREDENTIALS -
Beckett magazine correspondent since 1989
PSA Submission Center for 10+ years
Contributor to the Sports Card Counterfeit Detection Guide
Professional Appraiser of Sports Cards and Memorabilia.
fightfraud@aol.com >>
Two things.
1) You have to admit it's a little weird that you haven't given his name.
2) If the central issue is whether or not PSA will slab the card, then it seems like sending it to PSA is the most logical thing to do. You yourself said that 'the card was worthless to you if PSA wouldn't grade it', so why not give it to the people who's opinion you most value?
Rather convienent that the card was sent in today for grading.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
I know paypal requires buyers to return an item once a full refund is issued. A co-worker filed a SNAD complaint through paypal for a defective DVD player and was required to return it at her expense. Not sure about ebay's policies, but since they're the same company...
Besides, I would bet there are raw card collectors who would be interested in the card even if it's below psa's size standards, especially if many of them were cut that way by Topps. I've listed tons of modern raw cards on ebay with worse defects than that fully disclosed and, if the card was relisted with the size mentioned in the description and an explanation that PSA determined it to be cut short by the manufacturer, I bet it would still sell reasonably close to where it did the first time.
I know I am, and its not just because you spend lots of time or money on 13 year old cards either
It's because one of you is border line insane and the other reminds me of E.B, the hotel owner on Deadwood.
But dont worry, once the Mizzoui AG gets the letter concerning the baseball card being bit short, he will probably arrest you both!
Loves me some shiny!
I just didn't feel it was proper the post his name in a public forum without his permission.
If you want need his name send me your address via email and I'll send you a copy of his report.
onlyanumber writes; So let me get this straight. dmatc gets a refund from the seller jmbkb4.
jmbkb4 doesn't get the card back. He might get his money back if PSA grades the card.
If they don't jmbkb4 gets the cert number but no card--dmatc wll take it upon himself to rid the
world of the card. Boy, that seems fair.
onlynumber has a valid point. I guess since I don't think of myself as dishonest I didn't realize how
that might look to others. I was assuming that since a trimmed card is worthless to me it was
worthless to everyone but obviously that is not the case. If the card is rejected by PSA and the seller
still wants the card back I'll return it to him. Thank you for pointing out something that I should have
thought through a little better.
fightfraud@aol.com
Deadman's Registry Sets
dude, if you want a refund because you dont think it can be graded by PSA, first you must SEND the card to PSA..
i think youre whole persona is ridiculous.. LOL @ you using the ebay name "fight-fraud".. somebody should award you an "ebay esherriff ebadge"..
I am curious as to the whole story, but just too damn lazy to read essay after essay.
-- Yogi Berra
jmbkb4 >> should of given a refund earlier
dmatc >>> should return the card immediately after getting refund and went way over the top. I would guess that he has managed to find his way on to half of the people who have read this thread banned bidder lists (show of hands anyone)
carew4me quote "It's because one of you is border line insane and the other reminds me of E.B, the hotel owner on Deadwood."
Very astute
<< <i>I just didn't feel it was proper the post his name in a public forum without his permission.
If you want need his name send me your address via email and I'll send you a copy of his report. >>
whatever.. if you cannot provide a name of a reputable 3rd party authenticator, your claim is garbage as far as im concerned..
PS: no way in hell would i ever consider sending you my address..
- pandrews is right (as always)- Fight-fraud clearly has taken it upon himself to police the entire world of sportscard collecting, which as we know is a losing and pointless cause. I'd venture to guess there are some psychological issues at work here. I'm assuming DBH took time out of his day to email him to let him know what was going on here in the forums, which I think is equally disturbing. However, Fight-fraud does have the right to fight for his rights if he feels he's been ripped off, and I certainly don't fault him for coming here and pleading his case.
- jmkb has never addressed the cert numbers that were rejected because of evidence of trimming, and I checked (god I have no life) and found that some of the cert numbers are sequenced with slabs he has sold in ebay auctions. So he has, in fact had several 93 refractors rejected because of evidence of trimming, which is very fishy. PSA usually gives the "ev. trim" if they have clear evidence, otherwise it's just "minimum size requirement", which means they think the factory cut it short. I've never had a card I've pulled out of a pack come back as "ev. trim", but I know some of the folks here have. But 24 cards rejected as "ev. trim.," unless submitted over several thousand cards, is the work of a card doctor. I'm not saying jmbk is the doctor, he may have bought them from one. But the fact that he hasn't addressed it makes me wonder. Edit- I stand corrected. Only a few of the 24 refractors were rejected because of "ev. trimming", the others were "min. size req." My mistake jmbk.
- The only reason I've been following this so closely, other than the fact that I'm a loser, is that I made a lot of money in my late teens and early 20s buying and selling 93 refractors, and I've always had it in mind to put the set together for my collection, although I think I will wait for prices to chill. The fact that there may be a lot of trimmed cards out there scares the bejesus out of me.
Please let me make it clear that I'm not taking sides, just letting you know how things appear to me.
Lee
isn't the standard procedure for a return is for the buyer to first return the item and then for the seller to issue the refund?
-- Yogi Berra
If I'm following this thread correctly, there weren't any. They all said minimum size requirement.
<< <i>A couple of points here to note:
I'm assuming DBH took time out of his day to email him to let him know what was going on here in the forums, which I think is equally disturbing.
Lee >>
Bzzzttt..your assumption is wrong.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Lee
Lee
<< <i>A couple of points here to note:
- pandrews is right (as always)- Fight-fraud clearly has taken it upon himself to police the entire world of sportscard collecting, which as we know is a losing and pointless cause. I'd venture to guess there are some psychological issues at work here. >>
Well, I have no real idea what the hell happened either and so, like you, I'm not taking sides. But I will say that it's entirely feasible that an otherwise sane and reasonable man could eventually reach the point where's he just so sick and tired of getting ass-hammered time and time again on card deals gone bad that he eventually flips out and decides to embark on a Quixotic crusade to rid the hobby of cheats, liars and cons once and for all.
<< <i>jmkb has never addressed the cert numbers that were rejected because of evidence of trimming
If I'm following this thread correctly, there weren't any. They all said minimum size requirement. >>
Some of those cert #'s were rejected for ev. trimming. For what its worth, I've submitted probably 125 or so of those shiny cards myself, and never had a single one rejected for either trimming or minimum size.
If I'm following this thread correctly, there weren't any. They all said minimum size requirement. >>
Some of those cert #'s were rejected for ev. trimming. For what its worth, I've submitted probably 125 or so of those shiny cards myself, and never had a single one rejected for either trimming or minimum size.
Got it.
You know who I feel the most sorry for? The poor schlep who just happens to submit a 93 Finest Willie Green refractor this week and gets it rejected just because someone at psa read this thread.
<< <i>
<< <i>A couple of points here to note:
- pandrews is right (as always)- Fight-fraud clearly has taken it upon himself to police the entire world of sportscard collecting, which as we know is a losing and pointless cause. I'd venture to guess there are some psychological issues at work here. >>
Well, I have no real idea what the hell happened either and so, like you, I'm not taking sides. But I will say that it's entirely feasible that an otherwise sane and reasonable man could eventually reach the point where's he just so sick and tired of getting ass-hammered time and time again on card deals gone bad that he eventually flips out and decides to embark on a Quixotic crusade to rid the hobby of cheats, liars and cons once and for all. >>
Absolutely. Haven't any of you seen SE7EN?*
*I've now become a huge BooPotts fan because of this post.
Arthur
<< <i>You'd be surprised at the size of my Willie >>
OK...
But I hope it's not just in millimeters!
I read the entire thread.
I'm now short about 7200 chemical synapses!
So, while this card may or may not be trimmed, I think I'm about 8 refractors shy of senility.
Boo - I'm heading back into the "shadows of the cave" for a bit - if you'ld like...
I'll save you a seat. I'll send Plato your regards.
mike
<< <i>dmatc >>> should return the card immediately after getting refund and went way over the top. I would guess that he has managed to find his way on to half of the people who have read this thread banned bidder lists (show of hands anyone) >>
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Everyone is relying on an independent authenticator by the name of "Jimmy" but we do not know his last name? This is crap. There should be no refund without certification from an actual grading company that the card has been trimmed.
Quote of the thread!
The eby name combined with the bizarre move of contacting someone's employer.....very very strange behavior.
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>...and Pandrews is not always right. I remember hin being wrong at least once >>
source?
<< <i>Fight-fraud is full of BS.
Everyone is relying on an independent authenticator by the name of "Jimmy" but we do not know his last name? This is crap. There should be no refund without certification from an actual grading company that the card has been trimmed. >>
exactly.. i agree with Pandrews.. i mean Koby..
mike
I'm trying to picture jmbk's face when he went into work, the boss called him into his office, and said some guy called asking for references because he bought a $100 baseball card from him and he feels he got ripped off.
Pandrews- I remember you being wrong. You were the high bidder on some PSA 10 '82 Fleer I listed that ended at .04 each. That was just wrong.
Lee
<< <i>Pandrews- I remember you being wrong. You were the high bidder on some PSA 10 '82 Fleer I listed that ended at .04 each. That was just wrong.
Lee >>
i agree.. it was wrong, but it felt so right..
Arthur
<< <i>Fight-fraud is full of BS.
Everyone is relying on an independent authenticator by the name of "Jimmy" but we do not know his last name? This is crap. There should be no refund without certification from an actual grading company that the card has been trimmed. >>
I agree with you. God only knows what he did with the card before he sent it in; and, I'll also be willing to bet he included the "letter" from the unknown authenticator with the grading submission to be assured it received a "trimmed" grade.
In any case, it is very disappointing that I, admitting to having made mistakes, and offered a FULL refund (including shipping & handling), fight-FRAUD informs me that he is going to "destroy" the card when he receives it back from PSA.
In any case, I think his true character has become evident.
It is VERY disturbing to me that fight-FRAUD has composed letters to the Missouri Board for the Healing Arts, has written the hospital at which I am training to become a radiologist, and -- has made veiled threats towards my family.
That is scary and THAT is why I offered a full refund. In the 21st century, people are psycho and you can never be too careful. When it comes to my family, I will protect them at the cost of my pride/ego.
<< <i>I'm not saying jmbk is the doctor, he may have bought them from one. But the fact that he hasn't addressed it makes me wonder. Edit- I stand corrected. Only a few of the 24 refractors were rejected because of "ev. trimming", the others were "min. size req." My mistake jmbk.
Please let me make it clear that I'm not taking sides, just letting you know how things appear to me.
Lee >>
Lee,
I will now address the "trimming" and "minimimum size requirements issues.
1. The 2 cards that DID come back trimmed were HAROLD BAINES and NOT Willie Greene. The Harold Baines were purchased several months ago by a different person than most of my other cards (including Willie Greene). In my entire life, I have had TWO cards come back from PSA as trimmed, and they were both HAROLD BAINES from the seller. I do NOT believe they were trimmed. I do believe they are a little factory-short, as 75% of Willie Greenes, 50% of Orestes Destrade, and 25% of Harold Reynolds are.
2. I have NEVER had a Willie Greene come back as trimmed. I have had several return as being factory short and have had my grading fees returned in the form of vouchers. I do not care what the "unknown/unnamed 'independnt' investigator" thinks of the card, he was paid to give an opinion and fight-FRAUD obviously wanted to believe it was TRIMMED and not factory-undercut.
Since you are so incredibly honest, on your truth/integrity-seeking mission, what are you going to do with the > $100 you profited? Will you be returning it to eBay or keeping it for yourself?
Additionally, will you re-send me my original Willie Greene card.
PSA Order Status for Submission # 601989
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 04514613 1993 FINEST 180 ROB DIBBLE REFRACTOR 9
2 04514614 1993 FINEST 199 MIKE PIAZZA REFRACTOR 9
2 04514615 1993 FINEST 199 MIKE PIAZZA REFRACTOR 9
2 04514616 1993 FINEST 199 MIKE PIAZZA REFRACTOR 9
2 04514617 1993 FINEST 199 MIKE PIAZZA REFRACTOR 9
2 04514618 1993 FINEST 199 MIKE PIAZZA REFRACTOR 9
3 04514619 1993 FINEST 158 RUBEN SIERRA REFRACTOR 9
4 04514620 1993 FINEST 148 WILLIE GREENE REFRACTOR 9
4 04514621 1993 FINEST 148 WILLIE GREENE REFRACTOR 9
4 04514622 1993 FINEST 148 WILLIE GREENE REFRACTOR 9
4 04514623 1993 FINEST 148 WILLIE GREENE REFRACTOR 9
5 04514624 1993 FINEST 63 GEORGE BRETT REFRACTOR 9
5 04514625 1993 FINEST 63 GEORGE BRETT REFRACTOR 9
6 04514626 1993 FINEST 61 SHANE MACK REFRACTOR 8
6 04514627 1993 FINEST 61 SHANE MACK REFRACTOR 9
6 04514628 1993 FINEST 61 SHANE MACK REFRACTOR 10 (1/1; collectors of this set just gasped)
6 04514629 1993 FINEST 61 SHANE MACK REFRACTOR 9
6 04514630 1993 FINEST 61 SHANE MACK REFRACTOR 9
7 04514631 1993 FINEST 102 FRANK THOMAS REFRACTOR 9
8 04514632 1993 FINEST 178 NORM CHARLTON REFRACTOR 10
Date Received: 09/26/2006
Date of Grades Posted: 09/29/2006
Date Shipped: No Date Specified
I want to thank PSA for having the business integrity to grade the Willie Greene cards this week, in amidst of all of fight-FRAUD's false accusations and histrionics.